For Fade Celerity/adrenaline and regen (for hit and run attacks far away from healing)
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Also I'll take silence over adrenalin on my fade any day. Silent fades are op.
For ALL lifeforms though (except perhaps lerk) carapace is the #1 upgrade. If you had to pick one, that's the one you'd want, lerks that spike may not need cara but if they like to get bites off then it's for the best.
If you are playing a lerk properly you should not be taking too many direct damage at once (e.g. biting when they are not looking and avoiding direct shotgun damage), then when the damage stacks up and you only have cara, you have to fly back to hive to heal which takes away precious time away from killing marines/controlling map. Regen helps to keep them in the battle longer especially if they are far away/difficult to reach a hive/crag/gorge to heal up.
Depending on how far you are to healing sources, as fade you can go cara or regen. I prefer regen as I am often alone deep in enemy territory being chased around without any healing sources.
The reason you take cara over regen on fade (and usually lerk) is that you can avoid damage all you want, but eventually you're going to get a surprise party of damage all over your body that you didn't see coming. Cara reduces the risk of death in this circumstance.
For Fade Celerity/adrenaline and regen (for hit and run attacks far away from healing)
)
Also I'll take silence over adrenalin on my fade any day. Silent fades are op.
For ALL lifeforms though (except perhaps lerk) carapace is the #1 upgrade. If you had to pick one, that's the one you'd want, lerks that spike may not need cara but if they like to get bites off then it's for the best.
If you are playing a lerk properly you should not be taking too many direct damage at once (e.g. biting when they are not looking and avoiding direct shotgun damage), then when the damage stacks up and you only have cara, you have to fly back to hive to heal which takes away precious time away from killing marines/controlling map. Regen helps to keep them in the battle longer especially if they are far away/difficult to reach a hive/crag/gorge to heal up.
Depending on how far you are to healing sources, as fade you can go cara or regen. I prefer regen as I am often alone deep in enemy territory being chased around without any healing sources.
The reason you take cara over regen on fade (and usually lerk) is that you can avoid damage all you want, but eventually you're going to get a surprise party of damage all over your body that you didn't see coming. Cara reduces the risk of death in this circumstance.
The extra armor on lerk is 25 from cara, yes you can survive from that in very very few cases when you get surprised but more often then not, the regen will be more useful for lerk in long term survivability.
In the case of a fade, its a toss up depending on player preference as 50 armor is considerable however, again it forces you to play more defensively and forces you out of the battle more looking for places to heal your carapace.
If you are good at avoiding direct damage and aware of when to run then regen is more useful in keeping you on the field longer. If you are not as comfortable with surviving long skirmishes and afraid of being surprised then carapace will suit you in direct survivability.
Often in most cases if you get burst down more than you expected, the carapace might have a chance to save you or you die with it regardless. You cannot control surprises, you can however control how long you stay on the front lines with regen.
50 armor is 100 hitpoints to most weapons, that's a LOT. It's not about your own skill in being able to dodge shots, there's a cap on how well you can dodge, from there it's about how good the other person is at aiming their shotgun, or getting fluke shots. It WILL happen, and if you have less health because you took regen you are more likely to die.
Against rookies, sure, take regen, but it's not worth it against any other set of players.
50 armor is 100 hitpoints to most weapons, that's a LOT. It's not about your own skill in being able to dodge shots, there's a cap on how well you can dodge, from there it's about how good the other person is at aiming their shotgun, or getting fluke shots. It WILL happen, and if you have less health because you took regen you are more likely to die.
Against rookies, sure, take regen, but it's not worth it against any other set of players.
For fade yes, the carapace can save their life and is a toss up for regen, however on lerk the 25 armor is a negligible as it is only 50 extra points and it wont make a difference if you get hit directly from 2 shotgun blasts you will die either way.
Like I said, take carapace for fade if you are afraid of the enemy team instant killing you and know they are better. Carapace will save you if you take 2 direct shotgun hit (you will then die if they sneeze on you), regen makes sure you get escape when you get 1 direct hit and come back to finish them off less then 10 seconds later. If the enemy is better than you and good at aiming, then yes carapace is a better choice for the extra shotgun safety net.
50 armor is 100 hitpoints to most weapons, that's a LOT. It's not about your own skill in being able to dodge shots, there's a cap on how well you can dodge, from there it's about how good the other person is at aiming their shotgun, or getting fluke shots. It WILL happen, and if you have less health because you took regen you are more likely to die.
Against rookies, sure, take regen, but it's not worth it against any other set of players.
For fade yes, the carapace can save their life and is a toss up for regen, however on lerk the 25 armor is a negligible as it is only 50 extra points and it wont make a difference if you get hit directly from 2 shotgun blasts you will die either way.
Like I said, take carapace for fade if you are afraid of the enemy team instant killing you and know they are better. Carapace will save you if you take 2 direct shotgun hit (you will then die if they sneeze on you), regen makes sure you get escape when you get 1 direct hit and come back to finish them off less then 10 seconds later. If the enemy is better than you and good at aiming, then yes carapace is a better choice for the extra shotgun safety net.
50 hitpoints doesn't mean much for a shotgun, but it does if you're flying away and a rifle takes you down.
50 armor is 100 hitpoints to most weapons, that's a LOT. It's not about your own skill in being able to dodge shots, there's a cap on how well you can dodge, from there it's about how good the other person is at aiming their shotgun, or getting fluke shots. It WILL happen, and if you have less health because you took regen you are more likely to die.
Against rookies, sure, take regen, but it's not worth it against any other set of players.
For fade yes, the carapace can save their life and is a toss up for regen, however on lerk the 25 armor is a negligible as it is only 50 extra points and it wont make a difference if you get hit directly from 2 shotgun blasts you will die either way.
Like I said, take carapace for fade if you are afraid of the enemy team instant killing you and know they are better. Carapace will save you if you take 2 direct shotgun hit (you will then die if they sneeze on you), regen makes sure you get escape when you get 1 direct hit and come back to finish them off less then 10 seconds later. If the enemy is better than you and good at aiming, then yes carapace is a better choice for the extra shotgun safety net.
50 hitpoints doesn't mean much for a shotgun, but it does if you're flying away and a rifle takes you down.
You could also die as lerk when you are running away with carapace just when you are about to reach the hive to heal but they shoot you as you are about to enter the hive entrance because you didnt see the marine in the corner but he knew you were going back to hive to heal because you did not have regen.
If you had regen, you could have hidden in the closest corner/ledge/vent and healed all the way back up while keeping track of the enemy for your team within 10 seconds. Or the extra ticks from regen kick in at the right moment and heals you for enough health to escape a long chase from the other side of the map from your hive.
Lerks are most useful the longer out in the field they are, scouting the enemy team and harassing them to prevent expansions and killing the occasional lone marine or 2. If they have to run all the way back hive to heal, they cant keep total track of enemy and pressure them for the team.
shift is undoubtedly the best, not only does it spawn eggs which can prevent egg lock and help map control, but it also allows gorges to heal up hives faster. i would take a shift early game in a forward base/ tech point than a shade any day
i like silence but celerity helps get skulks were they are needed unless you are sitting on 3 tech point locations fairly secure than i would always go for crag and shift
No.
Crag first, until build 240 anyway, is the best as far as efficiency, tactical use, and benefits. Carapace is ridiculously good. Shift is only good because the average player is a floorrunning skulk that doesn't know how to walk
I'm not sure it's strictly superior in every game. Being able to spawn eggs at an expansion before you've finished expanding there is a pretty handy tool. Granted, actually using a shift can get expensive fast, so in most cases it's probably better to just get carapace.
once again, i'm one of the best fades in NA, and I routinely play against some of the best shooters in the game. name a server and time and i will gladly beat the crap out of you
I personally would love to see silence as an option, as I enjoy the full speed sneakery of it all, sadly it is not. Shade hive first is just not an option if you want to have a mid-game against a decent marine team. Going shade first hive is an all-in strategy that forces you to get 3 hives or lose. The problem is adrenaline is a must have, as is carapace. You might be able to skirt by without shift upgrades, but it halves a fade's effective retreat ability, and the only way a fade survives against good marines is hit and run. A shade + shift with no crag hive is almost a guaranteed alien loss. It usually means your all-in failed and now you're just playing a game of attrition without the huge amount of extra hps carapace gives. It basically neuters the Onos, and makes all the other life forms paper against w3. You might be able to pull off a lucky gorge ball if you're well organized, but meh, it's just not worth the headache. I guess we'll see with the changes in the new version how things go, but as it stands right now, shade is just not an option.
Like most of pointed out, crag first is preferred, but on pubs it may not be an option due to floor skulks / egg locks. In which case shift is required. Though if there are even 2 good skulks on the team, crag is usually worth it as they can manage their health properly and rarely die afterwards against no upgrade marines.
Fades don't need adren. You aren't going to survive in combat long enough to deplete your energy, so you still have PLENTY to get away, especially if you do so intelligently rather than simply spamming blink. Frankly I'd rather take celerity, since it makes moving around the map a little easier (mostly just makes it more error-proof since perfect shadowstep jumps are unaffected).
If there's one have you can do without, it's shift. The only lifeform that really needs adrenaline or celerity is the Gorge, and decent planning makes up for it entirely. Forward shifts aren't that big a deal after the early game either, spamming skulks at advanced marines rarely does anything useful. A celerity onos might get from base to base faster but he isn't going to outrun a phase gate.
I personally would love to see silence as an option, as I enjoy the full speed sneakery of it all, sadly it is not. Shade hive first is just not an option if you want to have a mid-game against a decent marine team. Going shade first hive is an all-in strategy that forces you to get 3 hives or lose. The problem is adrenaline is a must have, as is carapace. You might be able to skirt by without shift upgrades, but it halves a fade's effective retreat ability, and the only way a fade survives against good marines is hit and run. A shade + shift with no crag hive is almost a guaranteed alien loss. It usually means your all-in failed and now you're just playing a game of attrition without the huge amount of extra hps carapace gives. It basically neuters the Onos, and makes all the other life forms paper against w3. You might be able to pull off a lucky gorge ball if you're well organized, but meh, it's just not worth the headache. I guess we'll see with the changes in the new version how things go, but as it stands right now, shade is just not an option.
Like most of pointed out, crag first is preferred, but on pubs it may not be an option due to floor skulks / egg locks. In which case shift is required. Though if there are even 2 good skulks on the team, crag is usually worth it as they can manage their health properly and rarely die afterwards against no upgrade marines.
Build orders that I've tried successfully.
Shade->Crag->Shift
Shift->Crag->Shade
Crag->Shift->Shade
Still haven't found a team willing to try Crag->Shade->Shift
Good fade here, vs good marines on a constant basis.. i prefer regen. but that's because of my playstyle. i piss-off more than i massacre. i'm gone before they can get a full shotgun shot into me, then my buddies come from behind and eat them to bits as they aim at me. heh.
Every time I comm I think "Silence first, maybe I will try it this time, finally! This will be great". Then after 0,000001 seconds of the game people with already pre-whiny voices scream "When do we get Celeratäh???!!!" and I give up (and go Crag out of spite).
Still haven't found a team willing to try Crag->Shade->Shift
Same thing. "Hey I will go Shade second, this should be different and fun!". "WE NEED CELERATÄH WHY DON'T WE HAVE CELERATÄH ALRDY?? ADREN ADREN ADREN *whine*". And then I give up too :/:/
Good fade here, vs good marines on a constant basis.. i prefer regen. but that's because of my playstyle. i piss-off more than i massacre. i'm gone before they can get a full shotgun shot into me, then my buddies come from behind and eat them to bits as they aim at me. heh.
You aren't a good fade if you're going regen. It's really that simple. As it is, a top level shotgun marine can force a top level carapace fade back to heal in mere 1v1 situations - let alone the far more common scenario of 2+ marines in a group. You won't find a single high level competition player who'll support your idea of "LOL REGEN FADE", because unlike you, those people actually play against good marines on a regular basis, and are well aware that regen fade is a ticket to being dunked hard.
In fact, just going off the idea of 1v1 situations, I'm pretty sure even a top level Fade is going to end up losing to a top level shotgun marine 9 times out of 10 (if not more) when going regen. The HP difference is just far too severe to make up against a player who has legitimate aiming ability.
edit: I'll also just note that IAMKING isn't exaggerating about his skill level with Fade. No one really comes close to his level in Fade besides an extremely short list of top level comp players - and they're not necessarily better than him. Probably one of the only people in the game who gives me any legitimate trouble in a shotgun marine vs fade situation.
Comments
The reason you take cara over regen on fade (and usually lerk) is that you can avoid damage all you want, but eventually you're going to get a surprise party of damage all over your body that you didn't see coming. Cara reduces the risk of death in this circumstance.
The extra armor on lerk is 25 from cara, yes you can survive from that in very very few cases when you get surprised but more often then not, the regen will be more useful for lerk in long term survivability.
In the case of a fade, its a toss up depending on player preference as 50 armor is considerable however, again it forces you to play more defensively and forces you out of the battle more looking for places to heal your carapace.
If you are good at avoiding direct damage and aware of when to run then regen is more useful in keeping you on the field longer. If you are not as comfortable with surviving long skirmishes and afraid of being surprised then carapace will suit you in direct survivability.
Often in most cases if you get burst down more than you expected, the carapace might have a chance to save you or you die with it regardless. You cannot control surprises, you can however control how long you stay on the front lines with regen.
Against rookies, sure, take regen, but it's not worth it against any other set of players.
For fade yes, the carapace can save their life and is a toss up for regen, however on lerk the 25 armor is a negligible as it is only 50 extra points and it wont make a difference if you get hit directly from 2 shotgun blasts you will die either way.
Like I said, take carapace for fade if you are afraid of the enemy team instant killing you and know they are better. Carapace will save you if you take 2 direct shotgun hit (you will then die if they sneeze on you), regen makes sure you get escape when you get 1 direct hit and come back to finish them off less then 10 seconds later. If the enemy is better than you and good at aiming, then yes carapace is a better choice for the extra shotgun safety net.
50 hitpoints doesn't mean much for a shotgun, but it does if you're flying away and a rifle takes you down.
You could also die as lerk when you are running away with carapace just when you are about to reach the hive to heal but they shoot you as you are about to enter the hive entrance because you didnt see the marine in the corner but he knew you were going back to hive to heal because you did not have regen.
If you had regen, you could have hidden in the closest corner/ledge/vent and healed all the way back up while keeping track of the enemy for your team within 10 seconds. Or the extra ticks from regen kick in at the right moment and heals you for enough health to escape a long chase from the other side of the map from your hive.
Lerks are most useful the longer out in the field they are, scouting the enemy team and harassing them to prevent expansions and killing the occasional lone marine or 2. If they have to run all the way back hive to heal, they cant keep total track of enemy and pressure them for the team.
We could play this game all night.
good fades don't use regen
I'm not sure it's strictly superior in every game. Being able to spawn eggs at an expansion before you've finished expanding there is a pretty handy tool. Granted, actually using a shift can get expensive fast, so in most cases it's probably better to just get carapace.
Maybe if dont juke shotgun shots then I can understand why you would want to take carapace. Perfectly fine for you.
try playing against a decent marine just once
ps i'm way better at fade than you. i'll be glad to show you in person
If you are not getting hit directly by it, its not gonna instant kill you in 2 shots. If you move correctly you can dodge some shotgun shots.
try playing against decent fade just once
once again, i'm one of the best fades in NA, and I routinely play against some of the best shooters in the game. name a server and time and i will gladly beat the crap out of you
More armour = less dead.
Regen, like celerity, only works out of combat.
Vs Awful marines, Regen is okay.
I'd rather just label you an idiot and move on.
Ad hominems are the last resort of those unwilling to accept alternative choices exist. Relax and good night.
Indifferent. Either will work.
lets be honest doe, how much does that really mean in a scene with only a handful of good players.
Like most of pointed out, crag first is preferred, but on pubs it may not be an option due to floor skulks / egg locks. In which case shift is required. Though if there are even 2 good skulks on the team, crag is usually worth it as they can manage their health properly and rarely die afterwards against no upgrade marines.
If there's one have you can do without, it's shift. The only lifeform that really needs adrenaline or celerity is the Gorge, and decent planning makes up for it entirely. Forward shifts aren't that big a deal after the early game either, spamming skulks at advanced marines rarely does anything useful. A celerity onos might get from base to base faster but he isn't going to outrun a phase gate.
Build orders that I've tried successfully.
Shade->Crag->Shift
Shift->Crag->Shade
Crag->Shift->Shade
Still haven't found a team willing to try Crag->Shade->Shift
Good fade here, vs good marines on a constant basis.. i prefer regen. but that's because of my playstyle. i piss-off more than i massacre. i'm gone before they can get a full shotgun shot into me, then my buddies come from behind and eat them to bits as they aim at me. heh.
It'd be disturbing if he could...
Silence is awesome and people won't even try.
Sorry, you're not a good fade.
Versus aim you need cara fade.
Silence first is sub-optimal.
You aren't a good fade if you're going regen. It's really that simple. As it is, a top level shotgun marine can force a top level carapace fade back to heal in mere 1v1 situations - let alone the far more common scenario of 2+ marines in a group. You won't find a single high level competition player who'll support your idea of "LOL REGEN FADE", because unlike you, those people actually play against good marines on a regular basis, and are well aware that regen fade is a ticket to being dunked hard.
In fact, just going off the idea of 1v1 situations, I'm pretty sure even a top level Fade is going to end up losing to a top level shotgun marine 9 times out of 10 (if not more) when going regen. The HP difference is just far too severe to make up against a player who has legitimate aiming ability.
edit: I'll also just note that IAMKING isn't exaggerating about his skill level with Fade. No one really comes close to his level in Fade besides an extremely short list of top level comp players - and they're not necessarily better than him. Probably one of the only people in the game who gives me any legitimate trouble in a shotgun marine vs fade situation.