Alien economy slightly op, small changes suggested.
penis_quesionmark
Join Date: 2013-02-20 Member: 183220Members
Join Date: 2013-02-20 Member: 183220Members
First of all I love this game and suggestions come from a point of wanting to see the game grow and improve not "OMG aliens win all teh time ghay!" Also my experience only comes from pubs/pugs so I don't pretend to understand how the game is played at comp level.
I'm looking forward to shinny new toys in the upcoming patch but this is the thing I want addressing. In the early game as comm/kahm this is what you need to provide to allow your team to get on with the their game.
Aliens need
3 x extractor = 30
Cysts = ~ 20
Hive upgraded = 15
First upgrade (building plus the research) =~ 25
First hive structure ie shift + eggs = 10 + 5.
Total = 105
Marines need
3 res towers = 30
Armory = 10
Obs = 15
Phase tech = 15
Arms lab + A1 = 35
Welders = 10
Mines = 15
A second infantry portal = 15
Med pack an ammo drops =~ 15
Phase gate x 2 = 30
Total = 205
85 tres is a huge gap.
Add this to the fact that its easier as aliens to take down early marine rt due to early mobility than it is to loose an extractor. From the games I’ve comm’ed I personally think that if aliens take down two extractors in that first 5 mins the game is very hard to pull back. This is because loss of income plus the extra 30 tres needed to build them again leaves you so far behind on the tech tree that its unlikely you will be able to recover.
I know balancing a game like this must be nightmare but I do believe the game is not far from balanced and will only need some small tweaks.
Suggested solutions
1) a slight buff to hit points of the res towers to give marines a better chance to respond.
2) further increase the time extractors need to build, again not by much.
3) Extractors don't produce full tres until they mature, in the mean time they produce 5 tres every 60 seconds instead of 6.
4) welders no longer need researching. Maybe controversial but I feel that marines have too much to research at the moment in the early game.
I'm looking forward to shinny new toys in the upcoming patch but this is the thing I want addressing. In the early game as comm/kahm this is what you need to provide to allow your team to get on with the their game.
Aliens need
3 x extractor = 30
Cysts = ~ 20
Hive upgraded = 15
First upgrade (building plus the research) =~ 25
First hive structure ie shift + eggs = 10 + 5.
Total = 105
Marines need
3 res towers = 30
Armory = 10
Obs = 15
Phase tech = 15
Arms lab + A1 = 35
Welders = 10
Mines = 15
A second infantry portal = 15
Med pack an ammo drops =~ 15
Phase gate x 2 = 30
Total = 205
85 tres is a huge gap.
Add this to the fact that its easier as aliens to take down early marine rt due to early mobility than it is to loose an extractor. From the games I’ve comm’ed I personally think that if aliens take down two extractors in that first 5 mins the game is very hard to pull back. This is because loss of income plus the extra 30 tres needed to build them again leaves you so far behind on the tech tree that its unlikely you will be able to recover.
I know balancing a game like this must be nightmare but I do believe the game is not far from balanced and will only need some small tweaks.
Suggested solutions
1) a slight buff to hit points of the res towers to give marines a better chance to respond.
2) further increase the time extractors need to build, again not by much.
3) Extractors don't produce full tres until they mature, in the mean time they produce 5 tres every 60 seconds instead of 6.
4) welders no longer need researching. Maybe controversial but I feel that marines have too much to research at the moment in the early game.
Comments
Though I would like to see more res expenditure needed by alien commanders on tertiary structures. It would increase the importance of hive path choice, as well as making alien commanding more involved.
However, changes that make players have to stand around building or biting for the sake of balance ARE NOT FUN and should be avoided.
It's common knowledge that aliens can do fine with 3-4 harvesters while marines need at least 5-6 extractors to keep up. This asymetry wouldn't be a problem if marines are designed to expand faster than aliens. And in theory they are faster. In the bulk of pub games though, this is not the standard of play you're seeing, because pulling it off generally requires marines to win more than one encounter with skulk waves. In contrast, alien expansion to 3-4 harvesters (or more) can often happen unopposed, simply because skulks use their mobility to meet marines on their own terrain, effectively pinning them down or at least slowing them down significantly. By the time marines get two tech points and around 4-5 extractors up, they are often already behind in the res game, and only killing some higher lifeforms can turn the tide again.
I think that if you find a way to relieve some pressure on marine start, and/or slow down alien expansion, it'll do wonders for balance.
1) Buffing extractor HP won't solve the early game problem, but it certainly will make marine economy more resilient mid-late game.
2) Yes, I'm all for it. Albeit to buy the marines some more time.
3) Interesting idea. If you toy with the numbers, making maturation a big enough aspect, it could also add a slightly new dimension to the game. f.i. marines making pushes on specific "older" more proficient harvesters. Definitely worth discussing.
4) Don't think this is something vital to the issue. Maybe compromise and just shorten welder research time?
1. Marines must split into 2 groups at the start to take closest extractors and see which direction Skulks attack from. Aliens can move the entire team in one direction...Doing so, they can usually take down one group with little strategy, just zerg rush. (at least in Pub games)
2. Mobility allows the aliens to pressure marines RT's early game and 1 Skulk can force 1-2 marines to constantly bounce between extractors (Chomp, hear marine, kill or move to next RT, repeat) hurting any offensive push.
One idea i'd love to see tested, is to give marines a sentry battery and 3 sentries at the start of a match. This will assist in stopping zerg rushes on base (though certainly not remove it as a legitimate strategy) and give marines the option of focusing on one side of the map from the start rather than cut your team in half (after all, marines work better in groups) without as big a risk of a base rush when there's no one there to support it.
1) This will increase the time players have to do the boring task of facing a texture and holding mouse1. This shouldn't be a solution.
2) This will just increase the extremes. While you may balance the game for defensive playing marines this way, you will absolutely cripple aliens against a marine team that can harass alien RTs. (We have this problem already.)
3) As mentioned in 2) this will cripple the alien team if you have marines, that can focus on destroying RTs.
4) It is logical, that the other possible solution to this tech-cost-difference would be to remove tech from the marines or decrease their costs. But I think this would remove a great fun aspect, possible tactics and it would shorten the early-game.
So if you want equal tech-costs between both teams, you need more tech for aliens. Gorge tunnels should be a research-able. Babblers should be a researchable. Upgrades should be divided in 3 levels again. Hive costs could go up to 50. And you could easily add many more.
Trading an extractor for a harvester is extremely worth it considering how they build differently and how much aliens will be delayed by for higher lifeforms. I jizz my pants when i take down unbuilt harvesters. 10 minutes no fade? 13 minutes no fade?
based on wiki
Mature shell: 4 clips at w0, 3 clips at w2
Mature spur: 3 clips at w0
Mature veil: 3 clips at w0, 2 clips at w3
Mature shift: 2 clips w0
Mature crag: 3 clips w0, 2 clips w2 considering it heals itself
Mature shade: 2 clips w0
i know we're talking about early game but i just want to throw it out there that jp+sg w3 on a harvester is ridiculous(ly) (better) compared to munching an rt which doesnt scale at all.
Now whether or not this resource imbalance is responsible for the game imbalance is another matter entirely, but it certainly doesn't help.
It would be too easy to stop the cash flow.
Lore explanation I made up - after killing a cyst some bacterium layer stays. Not thick enough to be visible with a naked eye or keep Harvester healthy, but thick enough to suck the last drops of life from it.
In most pub games I can single handedly punish alien commanders who try to quickly take RTs. All it takes is attacking from the opposite side of the alien zerg and having the skill to routinely win 1v2 situations (which is easily done as marine).
You can usually get near instant alien rt kills on early rt expand targets like chasm on refinery. Literally rushing to chasm you can often kill the RT in just two clips. Aliens on both the comm and player level are overaggressive in pubs, and its easy to punish if you don't suck.
It's truth. 4 alien harvesters unscathed, you can expect a fade give or take 8 minutes. Is it because alien economy is OP, I beg to differ.
There's a few reasons those harvesters remain unscathed, but it mainly has to do with marine play.
3v3 and marines die, that extractor is going down or harvester remains up. 50 bullets and 10 couldn't land? Yes the game will punish you and your team. medpack? second chance? worth it! low on tres? still worth it because it will suck a whole lot more when you lose that extractor or those skulks get closer to fades. Most importantly, there is more than one way to a node. If one way is giving you trouble try the other way.
I just dont think its fair to nerf harvesters if marines fail to have a combined accuracy of 20%, have a stingy comm, and don't shoot skulks off teammates.
I agree with everything you said except this. Low level marines suck balls at aiming, they suck so much I see marines losing 1v1 while next to an armoury. One average skulk can take down 2 rookie marines, hell I've seen two skulks take down 3 jp/sg marines and an exo before.
Now if they aliens have better players gg, there isn't a lot you can do. Vice versa if marines have better players. But if your playing with low skill marines against low skill aliens you can't do RT rushing with just one or two marines. I've been trying to work out what you can do in these situations, thinking maybe fast upgrades instead of PGs and putting arcs ahead of jps or exos.