Aliens starting in pipeline on veil lose 60% of the time according to ns2stats.
Aliens starting in sub-sector win 65% of the time.
Best strategy when starting in pipeline: drop sub-sector immediately.
Please tell me this is some kind of sarcasm that was lost in translation to text.
Do you know what the biggest hit to alien resources is in the first minute of a pipeline start? Cysting into cargo.
12 resources just to be able to drop your third harvester. That when your second (C12) is one of the most vulnerable spots to marine ninja attacks on the map. That single factor is what kills most alien teams when starting in pipeline. 7/8 cysts needed for C12, 12/13 needed for Cargo.
Or you could just drop a hive which you are going to need at some point anyway, and drop one cyst for that harvester. Sounds like a pretty good deal to me.
The Marine team would have to be AFK to let you drop and build Sub-Sector hive when you start in Pipeline. Even fast dropping Cargo is dangerous (but completely necessary to win) against good Marines. Pipeline is just an all around crummy place to start.
if you start in pipeline you almost have to fast hive drop otherwise its going to be a very hard game.
fast dropping is risky though, you have to let your team know what your doing and you have to have 2-3 gorges to fast build the hive/get hydras down. All too often i see fast drops get taken out by 2-3 marines that rushed sub/cargo at the start.
I've won just about every game where I dropped a hive first then a single rt and gorged the hive myself. As a few people stated it does provide map control as well as access to things like leap and bile bomb pretty early. Leap is actually a complete replacement for celerity if you're really good with it. The only down side to it is that you don't have 4 or 5 rt's right off the bat. Then again if the marines are any good at all they would have killed a couple of those rt's you dropped anyway.
I don't care if you win literally every game, you are trolling your team. Deciding the build order is the job of the real commander. If there were a votekick function you would get kicked and rightfully so.
FYI, he wasn't the guy who said he does it just to be a dick. He's just saying that fast hive + leap is a good strategy. It's also not uncommon for the commander to get out and build the RT + hive, as often other people neglect to do so even if asked, and the commander actually has nothing to spend resources on while the hive is going up (being saved for leap), so may as well gorge himself, allowing the rest of the team to stay skulk.
Of course often when I try this in pubs, somebody doesn't realise that I'm going to jump back in the hive once it's built (despite saying multiple times that I am in order to avoid this scenario), thinking I've abandoned by post, jump in the hive and start building stuff, and in turn losing all the resources that have been saved for leap - which completely undermines the benefits of rolling with this strategy.
Anyway, I find fast hive extremely useful for dealing with marine teams that have players with incredible aim, and who you know are going to be aggressive, and target your rts in the early game, and have the upper hand on your skulks. In such situations, leap often restores the balance more than any upgrade ever will (apart from camo if their comm is bad) and gives your team a fighting chance.
Sometimes if I'm going for early harvestors, and the team is already keeping relatively good map control, I will forgo getting upgrades before hive and get hive first. Why not if the team doesn't need any extra assistance right away? If the resource flow is quick enough, you might still be able to research upgrades while the hive is going up, and still have enough for leap when the hive completes - allowing you to get leap quicker and still get your upgrades in a timely fashion.
Aliens starting in pipeline on veil lose 60% of the time according to ns2stats.
Aliens starting in sub-sector win 65% of the time.
Best strategy when starting in pipeline: drop sub-sector immediately.
Please tell me this is some kind of sarcasm that was lost in translation to text.
Do you know what the biggest hit to alien resources is in the first minute of a pipeline start? Cysting into cargo.
12 resources just to be able to drop your third harvester. That when your second (C12) is one of the most vulnerable spots to marine ninja attacks on the map. That single factor is what kills most alien teams when starting in pipeline. 7/8 cysts needed for C12, 12/13 needed for Cargo.
Or you could just drop a hive which you are going to need at some point anyway, and drop one cyst for that harvester. Sounds like a pretty good deal to me.
The Marine team would have to be AFK to let you drop and build Sub-Sector hive when you start in Pipeline. Even fast dropping Cargo is dangerous (but completely necessary to win) against good Marines. Pipeline is just an all around crummy place to start.
Extending that logic, the marine team would then have to be AFK to let you take Cargo or nano as well. So an alien team with 2 harvesters is pretty much overs anyway.
/surrender
I like early 2nd hive too. Getting an upgrade is done in 25 seconds (+15 for the hive path). Building a hive takes way longer. Its easy: You got 2 resources that are the bottleneck. T-Res and time. The first upgrade is only really bound to T-res. The 2nd upgrade is more bound to time. Because it is bound to the hive. While the hive itself is T-res dependent. Placing the 2nd hive first and get upgrades afterwards (= while this hive is building) is an overall more "optimized" production plan. You get every 2nd tier tech faster this way. And if you look at it, skulks without upgrades vs marines without upgrades is an equal battlefield, so you don't really need the early upgrades in most cases. With enough RTs the first upgrade is coming around the 4:30 minute mark anyway.
But now to the practical situation. When I start the round as kham, I invest all my t-res in Harvesters. Harvesters are the most important in early game. They reduce the time you need to drop the 2nd hive and they reduce the time until higher life forms are coming out.
BUT! One thing is important: I scout the map very carefully (black cloud under cursor) to see where I can drop a harvester without great risk of losing it in a few moments. And this is also when I decide if early 2nd hive is possible or not. If the marines are expanding slowly and / or my skulks can hold them at bay, than I go early 2nd hive. (Mostly when we can hold 4-5 RTs without risk.) If marines are expanding more quickly or slaughtering my skulks, than I research an appropriate upgrade. This can mostly be decided very quickly. So you can have the upgrade around the 2:30 or 3:00 minute mark.
Extending that logic, the marine team would then have to be AFK to let you take Cargo or nano as well. So an alien team with 2 harvesters is pretty much overs anyway.
/surrender
Nah, you can't extend that logic so far, and you know why. Every spawning marine will be much faster at sub-sector than any spawning alien, so the sub-sector hive is as good as dead the first time too many aliens are dead at the same time, something that isn't the case with cargo. It's extremely risky, easy to fail and easy for marines to prevent, but if it works out, you're in for an easy win.
Extending that logic, the marine team would then have to be AFK to let you take Cargo or nano as well. So an alien team with 2 harvesters is pretty much overs anyway.
/surrender
Nah, you can't extend that logic so far, and you know why. Every spawning marine will be much faster at sub-sector than any spawning alien, so the sub-sector hive is as good as dead the first time too many aliens are dead at the same time, something that isn't the case with cargo. It's extremely risky, easy to fail and easy for marines to prevent, but if it works out, you're in for an easy win.
Well that is a little cut and dry.
Consider that a competent team would have at least 2 gorges on that hive. 6 Hydras will stop a good number of marines in their tracks.
Then consider that the typical split on veil is 3/4 down each side. Lets say that the 4 go skylights side (unlikely since C12 is usually a hotter target than overlook), you can then assume a 2/2 split at best between overlook and nanogrid, and by the time those 2 overlook marines move into sub sector, they are either dead because skulks would obviously be defending that point, or the hive is at 50% complete and 100% health, with 6 to 9 Hydras next to it. If they pull back to setup the phasegate, the hive will definitely be done by the time any sizeable force comes in. And if the hive is done, with 2-3 gorges next to it, and eggs spawning in, then its a battle like any other. 50/50 in an ideal situation.
Sure, things can go wrong. Maybe the entire marine team is going to do a sub rush without even knowing what our plan is, sacrificing both nano and the entire right side of the map. If that's the case I think aliens can probably stand to lose one hive against such hit and miss commanding.
What it comes down to is, assuming equally skilled teams, and a start in pipeline, you are likely to lose as aliens, unless you stir things up a little.
When I do alien comm I tend do spend almost all of the starting resources on harvesters and cysts. I'll take over half of most maps within a minute and have harvesters everywhere. Building a hive immediately I think is an equally viable strategy, but it will only work if the aliens are skilled enough to protect both hives. If that second hive finishes before you lose either hive, and the aliens keep up pressure on marine extractors, a win is in your future.
When I do alien comm I tend do spend almost all of the starting resources on harvesters and cysts. I'll take over half of most maps within a minute and have harvesters everywhere. Building a hive immediately I think is an equally viable strategy, but it will only work if the aliens are skilled enough to protect both hives. If that second hive finishes before you lose either hive, and the aliens keep up pressure on marine extractors, a win is in your future.
In my opinion, an immediate second hive drop should only be performed when trying to make up for a deficit that already exists. In the veil example, the deficit is that pipeline is a terrible hive to be in, and cuts off access to almost the entire map. Therefore, you must drop another hive in order to get an equal footing.
Simply dropping a second hive for the lulz, however, I would highly recommend against. I'm quite sure that you would find that, at best, upgrades would go up just as quickly, but in most cases would take far longer to research because the initial 40 resources, which could have been spent on 2 or even 3 harvesters, was not generating any income since the start of the game.
Another possible concession is when needing stronger presence in an area in order to keep territory. However, in most maps there are 5 tech points, which means the marines would need to hold a whopping 4 of them for you to need to drop that second hive early. Marines simply cannot afford to hold 4 tech points though, so that is a weak excuse on any map other than veil.
When I do alien comm I tend do spend almost all of the starting resources on harvesters and cysts. I'll take over half of most maps within a minute and have harvesters everywhere. Building a hive immediately I think is an equally viable strategy, but it will only work if the aliens are skilled enough to protect both hives. If that second hive finishes before you lose either hive, and the aliens keep up pressure on marine extractors, a win is in your future.
spamming harvesters only works against bad marine players
First time I've agreed with strofix in basically ever. Good post mate.
I would love to hear some high level teams weigh in on this because my experiance is limited. Currently the team I play with doesn't employ fast 2nd hive unless we spawn in Pipeline on Veil. The reason behind this is, if you look at the map:
You will see the pipe line hive offers C12, which is easily accessed constantly by marines and the only path from there is either into Topo or Nano.
The other RT available is Cargo, which is a natural second hive. Except it takes ~15 tres to cyst to the damn thing in the first place.
Even if you play that style, and get C12 and Cargo RT's; if you want to play more greedy you HAVE to take the most important res room in the map. You could cyst to Sub, but then you are forced into a shift hive because skulks can't defend that location at all.
If you drop Cargo hive, cyst and take C12, gorge clog/hydra c12 and then have the comm go and gorge clog/hydra Cargo you have 2 RT's going in a perfect scenario and as soon as Cargo completes you have access to an easy 3rd RT, ability to get leap/blink cara/silence/celerity.
Also alot of the older builds were based around getting a 2nd hive and having the comm drop an onos egg. Which obviously can't happen now.
So, due to my limited knowledge: 2nd hive drop for me is viable on Veil from a Pipe spawn, apart from that I actually haven't seen it done recently...I think because getting a quick 3 RT's and defending them means Aliens can get high lifeforms quicker and take map control with Cara/Lerk/Fade. Then they can go into a 2nd hive with a larger safety net.
Pipeline spawn I just go shift, cyst pipe -> cargo -> nano, put up a shift in either cargo or nano to keep anyone from spawning pipe. If I get a gorge or two in nano this seems easy to pull off, since marines almost never ever never go to cargo right in the start.
Comments
There may be no absolute, universal best first upgrade, but there are certainly repeating situations and repeating best choices for those situations.
If you can get leap within say, the first ten minutes, it's probably the best first upgrade every time, for the first ten minutes.
The Marine team would have to be AFK to let you drop and build Sub-Sector hive when you start in Pipeline. Even fast dropping Cargo is dangerous (but completely necessary to win) against good Marines. Pipeline is just an all around crummy place to start.
fast dropping is risky though, you have to let your team know what your doing and you have to have 2-3 gorges to fast build the hive/get hydras down. All too often i see fast drops get taken out by 2-3 marines that rushed sub/cargo at the start.
pipeline really is a shitty start location
FYI, he wasn't the guy who said he does it just to be a dick. He's just saying that fast hive + leap is a good strategy. It's also not uncommon for the commander to get out and build the RT + hive, as often other people neglect to do so even if asked, and the commander actually has nothing to spend resources on while the hive is going up (being saved for leap), so may as well gorge himself, allowing the rest of the team to stay skulk.
Of course often when I try this in pubs, somebody doesn't realise that I'm going to jump back in the hive once it's built (despite saying multiple times that I am in order to avoid this scenario), thinking I've abandoned by post, jump in the hive and start building stuff, and in turn losing all the resources that have been saved for leap - which completely undermines the benefits of rolling with this strategy.
Anyway, I find fast hive extremely useful for dealing with marine teams that have players with incredible aim, and who you know are going to be aggressive, and target your rts in the early game, and have the upper hand on your skulks. In such situations, leap often restores the balance more than any upgrade ever will (apart from camo if their comm is bad) and gives your team a fighting chance.
Sometimes if I'm going for early harvestors, and the team is already keeping relatively good map control, I will forgo getting upgrades before hive and get hive first. Why not if the team doesn't need any extra assistance right away? If the resource flow is quick enough, you might still be able to research upgrades while the hive is going up, and still have enough for leap when the hive completes - allowing you to get leap quicker and still get your upgrades in a timely fashion.
In comp play you only see it on pipeline start because trying t control double from pipe is a nightmare, and the cysting costs too much
You need eggs right away or you will lose.
Extending that logic, the marine team would then have to be AFK to let you take Cargo or nano as well. So an alien team with 2 harvesters is pretty much overs anyway.
/surrender
But now to the practical situation. When I start the round as kham, I invest all my t-res in Harvesters. Harvesters are the most important in early game. They reduce the time you need to drop the 2nd hive and they reduce the time until higher life forms are coming out.
BUT! One thing is important: I scout the map very carefully (black cloud under cursor) to see where I can drop a harvester without great risk of losing it in a few moments. And this is also when I decide if early 2nd hive is possible or not. If the marines are expanding slowly and / or my skulks can hold them at bay, than I go early 2nd hive. (Mostly when we can hold 4-5 RTs without risk.) If marines are expanding more quickly or slaughtering my skulks, than I research an appropriate upgrade. This can mostly be decided very quickly. So you can have the upgrade around the 2:30 or 3:00 minute mark.
Nah, you can't extend that logic so far, and you know why. Every spawning marine will be much faster at sub-sector than any spawning alien, so the sub-sector hive is as good as dead the first time too many aliens are dead at the same time, something that isn't the case with cargo. It's extremely risky, easy to fail and easy for marines to prevent, but if it works out, you're in for an easy win.
Well that is a little cut and dry.
Consider that a competent team would have at least 2 gorges on that hive. 6 Hydras will stop a good number of marines in their tracks.
Then consider that the typical split on veil is 3/4 down each side. Lets say that the 4 go skylights side (unlikely since C12 is usually a hotter target than overlook), you can then assume a 2/2 split at best between overlook and nanogrid, and by the time those 2 overlook marines move into sub sector, they are either dead because skulks would obviously be defending that point, or the hive is at 50% complete and 100% health, with 6 to 9 Hydras next to it. If they pull back to setup the phasegate, the hive will definitely be done by the time any sizeable force comes in. And if the hive is done, with 2-3 gorges next to it, and eggs spawning in, then its a battle like any other. 50/50 in an ideal situation.
Sure, things can go wrong. Maybe the entire marine team is going to do a sub rush without even knowing what our plan is, sacrificing both nano and the entire right side of the map. If that's the case I think aliens can probably stand to lose one hive against such hit and miss commanding.
What it comes down to is, assuming equally skilled teams, and a start in pipeline, you are likely to lose as aliens, unless you stir things up a little.
In my opinion, an immediate second hive drop should only be performed when trying to make up for a deficit that already exists. In the veil example, the deficit is that pipeline is a terrible hive to be in, and cuts off access to almost the entire map. Therefore, you must drop another hive in order to get an equal footing.
Simply dropping a second hive for the lulz, however, I would highly recommend against. I'm quite sure that you would find that, at best, upgrades would go up just as quickly, but in most cases would take far longer to research because the initial 40 resources, which could have been spent on 2 or even 3 harvesters, was not generating any income since the start of the game.
Another possible concession is when needing stronger presence in an area in order to keep territory. However, in most maps there are 5 tech points, which means the marines would need to hold a whopping 4 of them for you to need to drop that second hive early. Marines simply cannot afford to hold 4 tech points though, so that is a weak excuse on any map other than veil.
I would love to hear some high level teams weigh in on this because my experiance is limited. Currently the team I play with doesn't employ fast 2nd hive unless we spawn in Pipeline on Veil. The reason behind this is, if you look at the map:
You will see the pipe line hive offers C12, which is easily accessed constantly by marines and the only path from there is either into Topo or Nano.
The other RT available is Cargo, which is a natural second hive. Except it takes ~15 tres to cyst to the damn thing in the first place.
Even if you play that style, and get C12 and Cargo RT's; if you want to play more greedy you HAVE to take the most important res room in the map. You could cyst to Sub, but then you are forced into a shift hive because skulks can't defend that location at all.
If you drop Cargo hive, cyst and take C12, gorge clog/hydra c12 and then have the comm go and gorge clog/hydra Cargo you have 2 RT's going in a perfect scenario and as soon as Cargo completes you have access to an easy 3rd RT, ability to get leap/blink cara/silence/celerity.
Also alot of the older builds were based around getting a 2nd hive and having the comm drop an onos egg. Which obviously can't happen now.
So, due to my limited knowledge: 2nd hive drop for me is viable on Veil from a Pipe spawn, apart from that I actually haven't seen it done recently...I think because getting a quick 3 RT's and defending them means Aliens can get high lifeforms quicker and take map control with Cara/Lerk/Fade. Then they can go into a 2nd hive with a larger safety net.