Escape: Alternate win condition for Marines
godrifle
Join Date: 2006-12-01 Member: 58815Members
Join Date: 2006-12-01 Member: 58815Members
<div class="IPBDescription">Solution to make End Game fun for Marines</div>Some marines, especially newbs really like the end game where marines are pushed back into a corner and fighting. Face it, a lot of pub players are really stubborn about games that they have already lost. My idea is to add an alternate win condition that not only speeds the end game process, but makes it exciting.
The commander would have the ability to evacuate his troops and equipment from the area. The marines need only hold out for 4 minutes after the evacuation command has been called. The commander is then ejected from the chair, the command station is locked from further use, and marine structures slowly recycle in a specific order from their usefulness. At first the proto labs and extractors are immediately recycled, and then the other buildings are sequentially recycled, until finally the infantry portals are recycled. After six minutes of the marines surviving, it counts as a TIE game for both teams.
The evacuation command should be of course, extremely difficult to pull off. An interesting problem to this is that it would be open to abuse, especially from Marine teams that are already winning or at stalemate. The command would be highly risky to use and always in favor of the aliens, to deter Marines that are already winning from using it.
TL;DR, Marine Commander orders evacuation. Essential structures recycled in ascending order of importance. If the marines hold out for four minutes, they tie the aliens.
The commander would have the ability to evacuate his troops and equipment from the area. The marines need only hold out for 4 minutes after the evacuation command has been called. The commander is then ejected from the chair, the command station is locked from further use, and marine structures slowly recycle in a specific order from their usefulness. At first the proto labs and extractors are immediately recycled, and then the other buildings are sequentially recycled, until finally the infantry portals are recycled. After six minutes of the marines surviving, it counts as a TIE game for both teams.
The evacuation command should be of course, extremely difficult to pull off. An interesting problem to this is that it would be open to abuse, especially from Marine teams that are already winning or at stalemate. The command would be highly risky to use and always in favor of the aliens, to deter Marines that are already winning from using it.
TL;DR, Marine Commander orders evacuation. Essential structures recycled in ascending order of importance. If the marines hold out for four minutes, they tie the aliens.
Comments
And btw, I disagree with everything made to "accelerate the end of the game". Because what I find so exciting in NS is that even when the situation seems to be completely hopeless… actually you can always have the opportunity to try to reverse the situation, well, until Kharaas break your main base power node of course. But then the end comes in less than 6 minutes.
Could make for some epic gameplay imo.
The only issue with this kind of mechanic are certain maps like docking, where the "escape point" would be next door to the start location and maps like summit where a static "escape point" could have the same problem.
My idea in a nutshell is somewhat similar, although my solution provides for a winner and loser.
One team is down to their last hive/tech point and less than 3 extractors
*and* the game has been running for over 10 (15? 20?) minutes
*and* the other team has 2 or more hives/tech points
*and* the other team has 4 or more res nodes under control
Should these conditions be met, the weaker team can invoke a 'doomsday' option. Timer starts and strong team gets (10?) minutes within which to end the game. If they do not they lose the game. For marines it could be they've got nukes in the hives (anyone from NS1 remember the nukes?) For aliens they could spawn massive infestation. The variables are open for debate, these are arbitrary numbers I picked out. It's the principle of it that I support.
Either way, once this happens *everyone* will want to stay in the game since the losing team is suddenly right back in it. They have a chance to WIN. They will fight to the last man. No quitters. No team balance. No whining about playing a game that you've already lost. Now they have a chance, albeit a slim one.
All that you have to do is give people something to play for and they will play instead of hitting F4.
Your idea also detracts from the main game. We want people to play NS2 as it is intended... but we want the end game to conclude better. What you propose changes how NS2 is played during the mid game, since the commander will likely recycle things and put stuff up such as armory walls, or by playing subpar to be able to achieve your prescribed requirements. Why would someone on a losing team want a 2nd cc when they could just give up instead?
My proposition has almost no hidden gimmicks; just as if how the comm currently says "hmm, we're losing, let's recycle", instead he'll say "hmm, we're losing, let's evacuate". He calls the evacuation, and everything else is taken care of automatically. Since the game auto recycles after an evacuation order (remember in TSF lore, the Marines are poor people), there is no room for abuse, and the dynamics of the end game changes with the loss of critical structures.
With my idea, the game is auto recycling so the end game can be even FASTER, down to 6 minutes at most. If we used your idea, it's likely that the meta of the game would change in that nobody ever presses F4 to start a new game. Games would on average tend to be longer. Your idea promotes the end game of last stand and encourages long monotonous firefights, and that's because it goes hand in hand with the 10 minutes you give for the winning team to eliminate the losing team. Any less time and it becomes unfair for the winning team.
The real issue is that there aren't good mechanics in place that end the game naturally, ie powerful 3rd hive abilities. I am actually doubtful however, because getting the end game to go faster without a voting system would take a lot of rebalancing to the point that the early/mid game would be affected. You shouldn't auto win with 3 hives, but the game should end faster when aliens have more tech points... see how it's contradictory?
Now here is the best part.
You might die, OH NO MY ONOS??!! :(, but the aliens, if they aren't picking their noses, will win, because of two reasons: The arms lab is down and they no longer respawn.
In certain situations/locations it might take 4-5 aliens working together, but that shouldn't be too terribly difficult in a team game, right?
Ontopic: The Idea is neat enough I just personally don't feel it belongs. It's much easier just to announce GG and f4.
Here's the deal, we HAD this in the game. We had nukes in NS1. It was a viable end-game option in the early days, but it was too hard to balance (IIRC) and it was removed.
The issue I raise is that if your team has 3 hives (or 2+ command chairs) and control most of the res nodes, and the other team is down to their last hive/CC/res node, then there should be nothing stopping you from winning the game. If you can't win the game with three hives when you have 10 minutes on the clock, then your team deserves to lose. There is no way any team down to one hive/CC/res node should be able to last 10 minutes against another team with tertiary level tech.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I know it's not much of a difference, but consider tournaments. A win and a tie make a big difference in tourneys.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Exactly why there should NEVER be a tie. You only make things unnecessarily complicated putting ties into the game.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Your idea also detracts from the main game. We want people to play NS2 as it is intended...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->My suggestion does no such thing. If anything I am keeping the principle of the main game alive. No one should 'win' by leaving. What kind of win is that? Wins should be fought for on the battlefield, not the fastest team to make for the exits....
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->the commander will likely recycle things and put stuff up such as armory walls, or by playing subpar to be able to achieve your prescribed requirements.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->It is painfully easy to put in conditions that prevent that. For example, no marine team would be able to trigger the countdown by recycling their own CC/extractors. Furthermore, if the marines are down to their last res node, then there isn't going to be armory walls since there is no res for it.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The real issue is that there aren't good mechanics in place that end the game naturally<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->I'll agree with you here. Right now the issue is that you can reach a stage of the game where a win is an impossibility - yet players are supposed to keep playing. Bottom line...
No one wants to play a game they know they are going to lose.
Anyways, I kind of like and kind of don't. It does a great job of forcing the aliens to get their stuff together and finish it, and it gives the marines some hope. But after they're losing that bad (and it's essentially over), it kinda feels like a cheap way out. A surrender vote might work just as well, since that way players won't feel like they're running away, abandoning the match and their team. F4ing is fine and all, but it really is just quitting. (although I suppose surrender is close to the same thing, it just has to do with perceptions)
Overall I suppose I wouldn't mind something like this. It makes the aliens push hard instead of putzing around, and it can reward the marines for holding out over that period of time. Although to be fair, there would probably have to be a similar system for the aliens in the event that they are losing.
I wish there was just a server option or a mod that meant that the game didn't end once the last hive/command station went down. And maybe not have the health drain for the alien team, as you can no longer farm defence chambers (due to the fact it's the end of the game, and ns2 requires infestation for crags).
I like the idea of the 'escape' idea, but don't think it should end in a tie. There are some seriously weird places you can hide. Like down in between the rocks in the pit that you can fall in by cavern on mineshaft. Or underneath crevice on summit. I wouldn't like the idea of a 'win' being robbed of my team just because we can't find a lone marine in some weird place.
Nothing more boring and lame than spectating knowing you can't spawn for ages. More than 30 seconds and I would leave the server.
For instance, imagine that there was a 10 minute doomsday button. But, once that's started, marines have six terminals light up throughout the map. If a marine makes it to one and 'downloads the data' or whatever (maybe even require a welder?), the timer drops by one minute, to a minimum of one minute. Aliens can't see where these terminals are, nor which ones have been downloaded. Maybe there's a ton of possible terminal locations, like 20, and it only picks 6 from those.
Mixing in this kind of idea gives the last-stand marines a 'hero' option. That's always cool.
For instance, imagine that there was a 10 minute doomsday button. But, once that's started, marines have six terminals light up throughout the map. If a marine makes it to one and 'downloads the data' or whatever (maybe even require a welder?), the timer drops by one minute, to a minimum of one minute. Aliens can't see where these terminals are, nor which ones have been downloaded. Maybe there's a ton of possible terminal locations, like 20, and it only picks 6 from those.
Mixing in this kind of idea gives the last-stand marines a 'hero' option. That's always cool.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You could make it so that 75% of the power nodes have to be up in order to power the communications and send a faster than light distress call, and then after they've sent the uncancellable call, it only would take 3 minutes for the marines to evacuate.
If main base power is out, allow marines to escape with the ship. They still lose, but get to stay alive I guess. It'll be "get to the chopper" easter egg or something. Maybe show a quick cinematic of surviving marines mooning the aliens below as they zip off into space.
Massively agree with this.
Concede is horrid for new players. They don't want the game to end suddenly, when they're either enjoying killing everyone or enjoying the hopeless defending.
Ok, so that's tiresome for the majority of players, because they aren't new to the game. But concede should just be last-man-standing. It should kill the CC/hive and eggs/IPs but the game shouldn't end until the players are dead. Usually this is pretty much instantly anyway but at least it ends with a bang.
The only way you are breaking out of a one base turtle late game is if the other team quits or someone new and ridiculously good (or hacking) joins your team. The situation only comes up becuase the aliens can't coordinate well enough to get your power node, but it doesn't take any coordination to lock you inside a base, especially since the khamm can just drop whips everywhere you could try to sneak out. If any of your team had the skills to break out of the turtle they either never would have gotten to that point to begin with or the aliens would need to be skilled enough not to have a problem just ending it.
Making a comeback is a lot of fun, but there are situations where it isn't possible but the game still drags on anyway.
You are right though, the retreat option doesn't really make any sense in context. A better idea would be to replace it with a suicide nuke, basically the same thing happens but the ultimate result is that after the timer runs out EVERYTHING is destroyed and the game ends in a draw. Of course while the option looks interesting I don't really see any real benefit to implementing it.
I very much like the idea of an alternate ending, not so much a "victory" as a draw. Perhaps where the marines have to push to a certain point on the map and hold it to get the ship warmed up and then they take off. Landing Pad, Flight Control, Cargo, etc. Or, if this objective fails, then a last stand while a nuke counter counts down.
So like first the marine team would have to overwhelmingly vote to trigger the escape/MAD sequence. First there would be a mission to escape, you then have a time limit to try that. If that fails, a MAD sequence starts. All this time the aliens' prime objective is still kill the Marine Base.
Even for futuristic marines I doubt that they can make a weapon as crude as a nuke small enough to destroy just a hive without hitting their own base, or at least lot of collateral damage. Even then the TSF would rather blow it all to kingdom come than lose it to the kharaa.
And perhaps all the aliens get a largely buffed form of xenocide.
Actually I was under the impression that the IP does indeed reconstruct the dead marine (or at least a copy of him) with nanites. Can't find any of the lore information to confirm that though, all of the links seem to have died when the site was redone.
Oh. Well either way really. I just went off the idea that it was an infantry "portal" and so I assumed that it "ported" infantry in from somewhere. But yeah, nanites works too. Lore's not really NS2's strong point.
What is the point in not having them?
For comp play, tie games would be stupid.
For casual play, tie games add a whole new level to the gameplay. It remains to be seen whether this whole new level is fun or not. I'm a great fan of the all out assault on a hive, trying for a ninja gate, or just plain turtling rather than concede, especially on rookie servers. Something that allowed for a tie game, even if the requirements for it were borderline ridiculous, would make end game on the losing side of marines that much more fun for many people.
I agree to the idea that the Marines should be able to retreat, possibly activating a self-destruct timer or depreussurizing the base (Sigourney Weaver does this all the time, so it's perfectly legitimate). Anyway, gameplay wise both for public and competitive play, I don't see why a "draw objective" for the Marines wouldn't work. Let the Marines be able to retreat to those ships and/or to escape pods through numerous routes after a given amount of time. The Kharaa will have to stop them if they want to get a win. A fun, intense challenge for both teams that ends an otherwise drawn-out game, instead of stale, boring, repetitive gameplay in the Marine spawn...
Conflicting lore!
That was NS1.
I also read somewhere that in NS2 it recreates the marine from a blob something. Think it was the wiki, but its link didnt work for me atm.
Its a way of making turtling have a defined period of time - instead of an uncertain length of stalemate.
I liked the idea. I think it was posted by Savant? It had good elements and def worth implementing.