Abstract Idea, NS2 Perception
Ironsoul
Join Date: 2011-03-12 Member: 86048Members
Join Date: 2011-03-12 Member: 86048Members
Ok, here's an idea I'd like to throw out here to see how people respond. This is not criticism(okay, it is) it has an ultimate goal of making the vanilla official natural selection 2 better. Here we go.
Natural Selection 2 is not fun to lose. In fact, it's horrible losing.
Discuss.
Natural Selection 2 is not fun to lose. In fact, it's horrible losing.
Discuss.
Comments
Losing as aliens is much different as it usually involves Marines steamrolling all your fortifications at once with arcs/exos/JP and happens much faster, but SEEMS much longer, and retaliation that much more pointless, because of the fact you spend pretty much the entire time egg-locked, and with no upgrades/res for lifeforms to retaliate with you're basically cannon fodder for the exo/arc train. F4.
marines i don't mind if it happens fast enough. but in ns1, it was actually really fun to try to hold out, in ns2, the marines aren't containable enough to have a quick last stand and game over.
Back when the ns1 Bad Clan server was still up, I remember many games on ns_caged that ended in a >90 minute marine turtle. Once they held Generator, the alien team was hard pressed to get them out. Since the aliens held all but one resource node at that point, the general strategy was to have most of the team go onos and a lone gorge try to drop a hive and allow the aliens to teleport in. Rather interesting to me was that somewhere after the second hour mark, the marines would often manage to push back out and take a second hive, and then quickly win the game.
So, to awnser the original question, losing can be annoying and less than fun, but I've yet to have a loss as frustrating as playing aliens on ns1_caged.
Much talked about in the later part of the beta.
Aliens dont feel as "fun to play" as marines.
Often you can be playing a game fighting hard against the marines...thinking you about to lose.
Within a minute the marines have been over-run, conceded or f4'd.
Even when losing as a marine you can happily keep trying to shoot those multiple Onii, Fades, lerks etc and still rack up kills with the most basic lifeform.
Compare this to aliens who on 1 hive (and no upgrades upon spawning) are lucky to land a bite on a marine...kills are very rare to see.
This is why UWE have always said "Win loss is not the be all and end all of balance". It is only one metric, fun to play has more of an influence than win loss ratios in regards to the longevity of a game.
Having btoh sides being fun even when losing (currently only the case for marines) is what needs to be looked at.
I dont care if aliens win 90% of games, as if when your playing as alien you feel like your losing there is a problem.
People will play out a game when they know they are going to lose, this is why we have such an issue with turtles on the marine side (not only can they turtle...its kinda fun to do so).
UWE did a lot of work in the lead up to "going retail" which buffed some of the alien mechanics, this was because alien teams often felt like you where losing even when you victory was only moments away.
I think the games fun to lose as marines but blows to lose (or even win at times) as aliens.
The ability for marines to finish off aliens on 1 hive far surpasses aliens ability to take out a 1 tech point marine team.
Aliens could not ever hope to drag a game out for over 15 minutes thanks to turtling, not unless the marines are sitting back and racking up kills (or waiting for exo's) in which case its marine tactics not aliens strength that allows those turtles.
For me, turtling as a marine would be loads of fun IF AND ONLY IF the victory condition of the game had been clearly defined from the outset to be: see how long you can survive as marines. Then there would be some kind of leaderboard or rating or something showing how well you did. Ten minutes? Not bad. Twenty minutes? Great! Thirty minutes? World-class turtle play, congratulations!
But that's not the victory condition. The victory condition is right there on screen at the start of every game: "Destroy the alien hives!" Given that, i.e. given the clear goal of the game we're actually playing, then turtling is (for me) a pointless, tedious, boring waste of time.
I prefer games to end normally rather than by concession. I think the final moments can be rather entertaining (think Mortal Kombat: "Finish him!"); as such, they can be very gratifying for the winning team and valuable as catharsis for the losing team. Simply conceding an obviously lost game removes some of the emotional experience from playing, and that's bad for both winners and losers. That said, the end needs to come quickly. Once a game is obviously lost, it needs to be over very soon thereafter.
These occur every time there is an artificially created 1st place you make the players compete for, while everyone else becomes "the loser". Try to imagine someone rage-quitting Portal 2's Coop. Won't happen, because the guy you are with (in its true sense) is your help, you need his help and he needs yours. You can only walk through the level door together, but not alone. Cooperation is mutually benefical for both of you.
In competitive games feelings of rage, hatred, envy and anger are common place, because you are (even if just for this map), my enemy and I have to beat you if I don't want to be beaten by you.
Competition also does remarkable damage in education, human relationships and our social surroundings in general.
Suggested further reading:
Alfie Kohn: No Contest - the case against competition.
Or some listening:
http://www.radio4all.net/responder.php/download/59979/66850/80362/?url=http://www.radio4all.net/files/xenophrenia@gmail.com/4531-1-Alfie_Kohn_-_The_Case_Against_Competition.mp3
Don't get me wrong, I love NS2 and I'm a proud owner of 5 copies, but I can't help but find it ironic that UWE's official motto is "uniting the world through play" while putting out a highly competitive game that actually pitches 2 groups of internet people against each other in a virtual total war...