While theory isn't playing the game, and the change isn't a huge one at the end of the day, it does make every other Marine weapon look a little more like total crap.
Why buy a flame thrower when you have the chance to one or two shot anything up to Onos? Why purchase a counterable grenade launcher with a smaller explosion radius?
I'm guessing the 'skill', as IronHorse pointed out, is that you wait until the Fade is close enough to swipe at you. Then you fire. Then the Fade Swipes. Then you fire. Then...oh it's dead?
It's one thing for Melee attacks to one or two shot someone, as there is plenty of room for the person with a gun to light them up like a christmas tree. But for a gun to essentially be a melee weapon that exceeds the strength of every Alien melee attack? I don't know about that. Personally, I thought the Shotgun was OP as hell even before the changes precisely because it one shots skulks.
Now, of course, the Marines require some weapons and armor upgrades to keep pace and continue one-shotting their way to victory. I guess that's the balance? You plan your Marine strategy around one exceptionally over powered gun?
Also, what is intended to 'counter' a shotgun now in a team scenario? Lerk gas? Good luck getting even marginally close. Lerk Spikes? Hmm...perhaps valid enough depending on range. Certainly in favor of the Lerk in large, exposed area's but how many of those are there that really matter? Gorges? HA!
I've got it! Onos are now the counter to a 20 P.Res gun! And it's still totally cool for a 20 P.Res gun to be a soft counter to every life form outside of late-game tech. It's balanced!
I guess I'll just give it time and see what NS2Stats says with it's dirty, dirty lies.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
Lerks that spike benefit from this change the most.
I think if you increase the cost of the shotgun to 25 or make it a advanced armory purchase, it creates slightly more economical risk for early shotgun strategies (which used to be an issue) and assists in the timing issue of marines having such a weapon before fades have blink or more than one upgrade. (Think andren, silence or cara.) Not to reduce strategic depth, but because the shotgun's intended role and potential power have always struck me as something that belonged in the mid game timing. This would lessen the issue of early shotguns vs skulks too ofc.
I'd also make the shotgun have a max of 5 rounds loaded.
It's all theory crafting (isn't that what this thread is?) But it might level the playing field slightly.
That scenario you described space Jew assumes the fade didn't get the first hit. Which usually means he didn't enter the room correctly. Like a skulk who got shot down a long hallway. If the fade did get the first hit, then was shot, it's typically 2 more swipes which timing wise should be less than the time it takes for that second shotgun round.
If it requires more swipes (late game) then hopefully that fade knows to shadow step and has decent upgrades and a tier 3 ability better than the current vortex. You have to admit that the life form's useless tier 3 ability really damages it's late game scaling for a team that already does not scale well.
So yea, those are the real problems, that I personally see.
Lerks that spike benefit from this change the most.
I think if you increase the cost of the shotgun to 25 or make it a advanced armory purchase, it creates slightly more economical risk for early shotgun strategies (which used to be an issue) and assists in the timing issue of marines having such a weapon before fades have blink or more than one upgrade. (Think andren, silence or cara.) Not to reduce strategic depth, but because the shotgun's intended role and potential power have always struck me as something that belonged in the mid game timing. This would lessen the issue of early shotguns vs skulks too ofc.
I'd also make the shotgun have a max of 5 rounds loaded.
It's all theory crafting (isn't that what this thread is?) But it might level the playing field slightly.
That scenario you described space Jew assumes the fade didn't get the first hit. Which usually means he didn't enter the room correctly. Like a skulk who got shot down a long hallway. If the fade did get the first hit, then was shot, it's typically 2 more swipes which timing wise should be less than the time it takes for that second shotgun round.
If it requires more swipes (late game) then hopefully that fade knows to shadow step and has decent upgrades and a tier 3 ability better than the current vortex. You have to admit that the life form's useless tier 3 ability really damages it's late game scaling for a team that already does not scale well.
So yea, those are the real problems, that I personally see.
That sounds like a bit more common sense. Even if the Fade does get the first hit he is required to enter the shotguns 'melee' range which is the most dangerous place to be. A fade is a 100% melee character, whereas a shotgun is both ranged and melee. In my example I also assumed the shotgunner didn't get an opening blast off before the Fade closed the distance, which is wholly reasonable in most NS2 situations.
The longer a fade has to 'juke' to attempt to throw off the aim of a Marine, the more chances that the Fade will be one-shot when it finally has an opportunity to attack. If the Fade doesn't 'juke' to avoid incoming fire, he still risks being killed in two hits.
Fades not scaling well on a team that doesn't scale well is an already known factor, and Vortex needs to be scrapped and rethought from scratch. It's basically devour, and a stupid buggy version of it on top of that. It's just...bad...and bad in every conceivable situation.
All this is secondary to the fact that a shotgun can one-shot skulks as soon as it drops. The fact that Marines don't win hands down when shotguns hit the field is a minor miracle all of it's own that I can only attribute to poor Marines players. It is seriously not hard at all to one-shot kill multiple aliens players.
Oh, I do agree that spikes are the most likely and useful counter. Again, I'm just not so sure how well that works out given that every other Marine on the field as a better version of Spikes and can pick up a shotgun quite easily. How many Marines do you need to spike down before that shotgun is actually out of play?
Answer: All of them.
Last thing before everyone TL;DR's this post.
Ammo capacity needs to shrink for the shotgun, and it possibly needs to change to a 'clip' of five shots. In it's current iteration there is no downside to the shotgun. You don't 'trade' anything for anything. You give up your Ok LMG for a boss one-man-army gun. The only downside is you might get overconfident from owning the entire other team and slip up and lose your gun to someone else. Then they get to enjoy their skill streak.
EDIT: You do trade range for stopping power. You also have a auto-fire pistol.
EDIT 2: Maybe the problem simply lies in the fact that for it's relative abilities, fade is under powered for it's cost. Sure it's fast and does good player damage. With that in mind, you get there quickly then need to wait for the rest of the team to catch up to provide distractions. One of it's main draws is actually a downside with shotguns being so incredibly effective.
I think it's fine, it IS a close range weapon, and it SHOULD hurt like a bitch if you get in its sights. Even a shotgunner can only shoot one target at once, if you go in alone, die, then complain about it. Sorry your opinion doesn't even matter. With 2-3 people you should have an easy time taking people out. Especially if they're solo.
Oh, I do agree that spikes are the most likely and useful counter. Again, I'm just not so sure how well that works out given that every other Marine on the field as a better version of Spikes and can pick up a shotgun quite easily. How many Marines do you need to spike down before that shotgun is actually out of play?
Answer: All of them.
While your post is disgustingly alien biased and I'll refrain from replying to most of it.. I will stop at this point and say that not only does the shotgun have a 30s disappear timer but projectiles like Gorge Spit can actually move the shotgun.. far away from Marine hands.
And I really doubt the entire marine team is going to show up to save a shotgun. Completely delusional to think that kind of situation happens in your common ns2 adventure. A squad of 2-4 may be able to recover it until the squad is lost but other than that, no.
I dunno, shotguns feel op right now when people are using them who have some aiming. can't remember any match where the alien team threw all it's skulks, lerks and gorges against the enemy (about 2 shotgun marines) and didn't succeed in killing them. I don't think some stray pellets should kill a skulk outright.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
edited February 2013
I've actually been finding jet pack shotgun marines less effective lately.
With a symmetrical pattern and wider spread, it's way less effective at range as said, and jp marines play cautiously and defensively alot, staying out of bite range , back pedaling and returning fire - often not as point blank as they would typically be on the ground.
However, chances are you have armor 3 by the time you have jetpacks, so perhaps you are running into the same old scaling issue?
Or maybe that's just my anecdotal experience?
fanaticThis post has been edited.Join Date: 2003-07-23Member: 18377Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
edited February 2013
I see a lot of complaints about the shotgun being OP in here, but it's actually quite the opposite. My experience is that the old shotgun was more powerful, because even with the less predictable spread, the cone was much tighter. The b239 shotgun makes it almost impossible to shoot escaping fades, because it barely does any damage outside of point blank range. It doesn't matter that it theoretically does more damage, when in practice you're going to miss half of the pellets most of the time because of the wide spread anyway.
The new shotgun is powerful against skulks (as it should be) and fades, since shotguns are really the ONLY counter to fades, they SHOULD be effective against them. Any good fade would probably dodge enough shots to do some damage, and as soon as it gets hit once immediately leave anyway.
Lerks that spike benefit from this change the most.
I think if you increase the cost of the shotgun to 25 or make it a advanced armory purchase, it creates slightly more economical risk for early shotgun strategies (which used to be an issue) and assists in the timing issue of marines having such a weapon before fades have blink or more than one upgrade. (Think andren, silence or cara.) Not to reduce strategic depth, but because the shotgun's intended role and potential power have always struck me as something that belonged in the mid game timing. This would lessen the issue of early shotguns vs skulks too ofc.
If you make the Shotgun only available with an AA, then you drastically weaken the Marines early game, where they're already very weak. All they would have available to them are Mines and Welders. You'd have to improve the LMG to be able to carry them until AA.
Agreed, shotgun should be available pre-AA, too expensive. IMO leave it EXACTLY how it is right now. It only rewards players that can aim directly on their target WHEN close anyway.
After playing a bit I think the SG is too powerful now. I saw a few fades got 2 shot as comm which indeed is too much imho.
I think the non-random spread and more pellets alone make quite the buff, increasing the damage really was not neccessary.
With the new shotgun, JP/SG marines with W3/A3 are too powerful.
What is this supposed to mean? Am I supposed to assume what you want OP? You've added none of your thoughts.
You want fades to be essentially half an Onos, with the added advantage of being extremely quick and difficult to hit? It's the 'rogue' unit—it's self explanatory really.
*Gosh, if there's one thing I hate, it's presumptuous vaguery.
The new shotgun is powerful against skulks (as it should be) and fades, since shotguns are really the ONLY counter to fades, they SHOULD be effective against them. Any good fade would probably dodge enough shots to do some damage, and as soon as it gets hit once immediately leave anyway.
So a 20 res weapon that you can possibly recover after death should be a hard counter to a 50 res lifeform that you lose on death? That's not including the fact that it is incredibly easy to hit a point blank target. You hit them with a full blast at point blank range, they run to avoid dying, and you shoot them in the back while they're fleeing. Even if you don't kill them they'll be incredibly low on HP, allowing anyone who might come across them to easily mop them up. That's just what one good shotgunner can do. Groups are suicide for Fades now.
If they are two shottable, then they should be cheaper. Gorges should cost 20, lerk 30, fade 40, onos 75.
This is assuming you find shooting a fade accurately—twice—a trivial affair. Which it isn't, assuming you're well adjusted in regards to average player-base skill.
If they are two shottable, then they should be cheaper. Gorges should cost 20, lerk 30, fade 40, onos 75.
This is assuming you find shooting a fade accurately—twice—a trivial affair. Which it isn't, assuming you're well adjusted in regards to average player-base skill.
I'd argue the average decent player will get at least a single full shot on them.
What is this supposed to mean? Am I supposed to assume what you want OP? You've added none of your thoughts.
You want fades to be essentially half an Onos, with the added advantage of being extremely quick and difficult to hit? It's the 'rogue' unit—it's self explanatory really.
*Gosh, if there's one thing I hate, it's presumptuous vaguery.
The new shotgun is powerful against skulks (as it should be) and fades, since shotguns are really the ONLY counter to fades, they SHOULD be effective against them. Any good fade would probably dodge enough shots to do some damage, and as soon as it gets hit once immediately leave anyway.
So a 20 res weapon that you can possibly recover after death should be a hard counter to a 50 res lifeform that you lose on death? That's not including the fact that it is incredibly easy to hit a point blank target. You hit them with a full blast at point blank range, they run to avoid dying, and you shoot them in the back while they're fleeing. Even if you don't kill them they'll be incredibly low on HP, allowing anyone who might come across them to easily mop them up. That's just what one good shotgunner can do. Groups are suicide for Fades now.
I'd say that since the shotgun (20 res) doesn't kill a fade in one hit (50 res) but instead two FULL hits (rare but possible). That two shotguns are needed to take a fade down at LEAST. If you die to ONE shotgun, sorry you suck at fade.
EDIT: Also a single fade has much more impact on the game than a single shotgun, so your argument about a 20 res weapon equaling a 50 res lifeform is stupid.
ScardyBobScardyBobJoin Date: 2009-11-25Member: 69528Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
I'm personally ok with a w3 sg being able to two-shot a fade with a 100% pellet hit, since this is effectively max marine tech. Marines should be able to fight fades on equal terms in that situation. I'd be more concerned if marines could two shot fades with either w1 or w2, since that's more of the equivalent tech level marines typically have when fades first appear.
I haven't seen many full damage sg shots since B238/239 came out, so marines still need to to three-shot fades in practice.
Comments
Why buy a flame thrower when you have the chance to one or two shot anything up to Onos? Why purchase a counterable grenade launcher with a smaller explosion radius?
I'm guessing the 'skill', as IronHorse pointed out, is that you wait until the Fade is close enough to swipe at you. Then you fire. Then the Fade Swipes. Then you fire. Then...oh it's dead?
It's one thing for Melee attacks to one or two shot someone, as there is plenty of room for the person with a gun to light them up like a christmas tree. But for a gun to essentially be a melee weapon that exceeds the strength of every Alien melee attack? I don't know about that. Personally, I thought the Shotgun was OP as hell even before the changes precisely because it one shots skulks.
Now, of course, the Marines require some weapons and armor upgrades to keep pace and continue one-shotting their way to victory. I guess that's the balance? You plan your Marine strategy around one exceptionally over powered gun?
Also, what is intended to 'counter' a shotgun now in a team scenario? Lerk gas? Good luck getting even marginally close. Lerk Spikes? Hmm...perhaps valid enough depending on range. Certainly in favor of the Lerk in large, exposed area's but how many of those are there that really matter? Gorges? HA!
I've got it! Onos are now the counter to a 20 P.Res gun! And it's still totally cool for a 20 P.Res gun to be a soft counter to every life form outside of late-game tech. It's balanced!
I guess I'll just give it time and see what NS2Stats says with it's dirty, dirty lies.
I think if you increase the cost of the shotgun to 25 or make it a advanced armory purchase, it creates slightly more economical risk for early shotgun strategies (which used to be an issue) and assists in the timing issue of marines having such a weapon before fades have blink or more than one upgrade. (Think andren, silence or cara.) Not to reduce strategic depth, but because the shotgun's intended role and potential power have always struck me as something that belonged in the mid game timing. This would lessen the issue of early shotguns vs skulks too ofc.
I'd also make the shotgun have a max of 5 rounds loaded.
It's all theory crafting (isn't that what this thread is?) But it might level the playing field slightly.
That scenario you described space Jew assumes the fade didn't get the first hit. Which usually means he didn't enter the room correctly. Like a skulk who got shot down a long hallway. If the fade did get the first hit, then was shot, it's typically 2 more swipes which timing wise should be less than the time it takes for that second shotgun round.
If it requires more swipes (late game) then hopefully that fade knows to shadow step and has decent upgrades and a tier 3 ability better than the current vortex. You have to admit that the life form's useless tier 3 ability really damages it's late game scaling for a team that already does not scale well.
So yea, those are the real problems, that I personally see.
That sounds like a bit more common sense. Even if the Fade does get the first hit he is required to enter the shotguns 'melee' range which is the most dangerous place to be. A fade is a 100% melee character, whereas a shotgun is both ranged and melee. In my example I also assumed the shotgunner didn't get an opening blast off before the Fade closed the distance, which is wholly reasonable in most NS2 situations.
The longer a fade has to 'juke' to attempt to throw off the aim of a Marine, the more chances that the Fade will be one-shot when it finally has an opportunity to attack. If the Fade doesn't 'juke' to avoid incoming fire, he still risks being killed in two hits.
Fades not scaling well on a team that doesn't scale well is an already known factor, and Vortex needs to be scrapped and rethought from scratch. It's basically devour, and a stupid buggy version of it on top of that. It's just...bad...and bad in every conceivable situation.
All this is secondary to the fact that a shotgun can one-shot skulks as soon as it drops. The fact that Marines don't win hands down when shotguns hit the field is a minor miracle all of it's own that I can only attribute to poor Marines players. It is seriously not hard at all to one-shot kill multiple aliens players.
Oh, I do agree that spikes are the most likely and useful counter. Again, I'm just not so sure how well that works out given that every other Marine on the field as a better version of Spikes and can pick up a shotgun quite easily. How many Marines do you need to spike down before that shotgun is actually out of play?
Answer: All of them.
Last thing before everyone TL;DR's this post.
Ammo capacity needs to shrink for the shotgun, and it possibly needs to change to a 'clip' of five shots. In it's current iteration there is no downside to the shotgun. You don't 'trade' anything for anything. You give up your Ok LMG for a boss one-man-army gun. The only downside is you might get overconfident from owning the entire other team and slip up and lose your gun to someone else. Then they get to enjoy their skill streak.
EDIT: You do trade range for stopping power. You also have a auto-fire pistol.
EDIT 2: Maybe the problem simply lies in the fact that for it's relative abilities, fade is under powered for it's cost. Sure it's fast and does good player damage. With that in mind, you get there quickly then need to wait for the rest of the team to catch up to provide distractions. One of it's main draws is actually a downside with shotguns being so incredibly effective.
You trade 20 res. Typically when I spent 20 bucks to replace something cheaper, I expect it to be better.
Edit: f*ck this edit/quote system.
While your post is disgustingly alien biased and I'll refrain from replying to most of it.. I will stop at this point and say that not only does the shotgun have a 30s disappear timer but projectiles like Gorge Spit can actually move the shotgun.. far away from Marine hands.
And I really doubt the entire marine team is going to show up to save a shotgun. Completely delusional to think that kind of situation happens in your common ns2 adventure. A squad of 2-4 may be able to recover it until the squad is lost but other than that, no.
That and lerks are now finally a proper counter to them.
With a symmetrical pattern and wider spread, it's way less effective at range as said, and jp marines play cautiously and defensively alot, staying out of bite range , back pedaling and returning fire - often not as point blank as they would typically be on the ground.
However, chances are you have armor 3 by the time you have jetpacks, so perhaps you are running into the same old scaling issue?
Or maybe that's just my anecdotal experience?
If you make the Shotgun only available with an AA, then you drastically weaken the Marines early game, where they're already very weak. All they would have available to them are Mines and Welders. You'd have to improve the LMG to be able to carry them until AA.
I think the non-random spread and more pellets alone make quite the buff, increasing the damage really was not neccessary.
With the new shotgun, JP/SG marines with W3/A3 are too powerful.
Yet marine win % late game especially is abysmal...
What is this supposed to mean? Am I supposed to assume what you want OP? You've added none of your thoughts.
You want fades to be essentially half an Onos, with the added advantage of being extremely quick and difficult to hit? It's the 'rogue' unit—it's self explanatory really.
*Gosh, if there's one thing I hate, it's presumptuous vaguery.
So a 20 res weapon that you can possibly recover after death should be a hard counter to a 50 res lifeform that you lose on death? That's not including the fact that it is incredibly easy to hit a point blank target. You hit them with a full blast at point blank range, they run to avoid dying, and you shoot them in the back while they're fleeing. Even if you don't kill them they'll be incredibly low on HP, allowing anyone who might come across them to easily mop them up. That's just what one good shotgunner can do. Groups are suicide for Fades now.
This is assuming you find shooting a fade accurately—twice—a trivial affair. Which it isn't, assuming you're well adjusted in regards to average player-base skill.
I'd argue the average decent player will get at least a single full shot on them.
I'd say that since the shotgun (20 res) doesn't kill a fade in one hit (50 res) but instead two FULL hits (rare but possible). That two shotguns are needed to take a fade down at LEAST. If you die to ONE shotgun, sorry you suck at fade.
EDIT: Also a single fade has much more impact on the game than a single shotgun, so your argument about a 20 res weapon equaling a 50 res lifeform is stupid.
:double checks:
You don't really think that conclusion is justified do you? Concentrate.
I haven't seen many full damage sg shots since B238/239 came out, so marines still need to to three-shot fades in practice.