Change the build up time to 3 seconds and elevate the sentries themselves about 1/3 of a meter, they should be able to see and shoot over a sentry battery, no higher then that. All of a sudden, sentries not so horrible and no huge game imbalance inc.
A gay strat to try in pub server, have your marines rush 2 tech areas and drop sentries straight away, if you've got 2-3 res nodes you can easily handle it and once you get the other 2 res nodes in the tech points you should sit comfortably around 4-6. Very easy to tech up on that amount of RTs and by 6-8 mins you'll have phases, armoury and obs up and maybe even a arms lab if you're lucky. You just need to triangle them in the open areas in tech points, hives like gen/locker or XR/sub/atrium are a nightmare to take back at 3-6 mins with 3 sentries up and 2-3 marines.
Shoutouts to Ruski for doing this nearly every time people allow him in the chair, a lot of people stop saying sentries are useless after they've sat on 1 tech point for 10 mins and try herding cats to take them back. They're just very niche right now.
Although you never should try it, if you really are trying to lock down an area using sentries, do it at the intersection of two powernode areas. That way you can get 6 sentries covering 2 batteries.
i wouldnt mind experimenting with sentires monuted on platforms that are moveable and deployable like a whip, but they must be built at a fctory with a lnog setup time. the battery setup just isnt working
What exactly is the issue with sentries at the moment? I think they are working perfectly.
I am often discouraged from hitting defended locations, even if they have no actual players there, if there are sentries set up in an intelligent way. This deterrent applies to skulks, lerks, fades and gorges when they don't have bile bomb. Sentry nests are easy targets for gorges who have bile bomb, as are all structures, but an equally easy target is your entire base, so setting up the sentries outside of your main clump of base buildings means that you will lose 20 res worth of turrets, while keeping 20 res worth of structures which are actually important.
Even when an Onos attacks, 3 sentries can nicely supplement the damage output to an Onos who is no doubt more preoccupied with attacking marines.
I find sentries to be an interesting thing. In small games they have less use because without a marine there, they are so easily killed by even one skulk who can approach them properly, and usually there is not someone who can respond immediately to attacks near them if marines are out pushing. That being said, in large games, they become area of denial and aim assist for players who can't aim well. Usually at tech points and near phase gates which gives extra time for someone to respond. Gate camping by aliens can be an issue on pubs, due to how many players are available to do it, and how gates work now without throwback. It's just one of those things that become less useful as player skill level goes up, and also less useful as the amount of players drops due to their cost and ease to destroy when no one is around. They do not replace marines, but there pub use is there.
I actually kind of wish there were more things like turrets that balance in this way, as they would help the marines out in pubs but be left out of comp as they don't have any use there.
In a nut shell:
- they are not supposed to replace marines (this would be boring and OP by increasing the manpower)
- they are assistance and deterrent (either for covering marines or getting more time when a PG is being attacked)
- upgrades are always to prefer over sentries (Upgrades can't be destroyed by aliens and they affect the whole battle field, not just one room)
- sentries are best used in areas that are heavily contested (as long as marines are around, sentries are like a DPS upgrade)
- never defend something that is worth less than the setup itself (Sentries for a RT? This is just stupid.)
- don't try to build unbeatable sentry-nests (this doesn't exist anyway. So better focus on pointing the sentries at an entrance or important buildings, instead of the battery)
- a sentry battery in a corner with 2 sentries facing out and 1 in is the nearest you can get to "unbeatable"
- a forward base near a hive is always contested by aliens and full of marines (this is a very good place to use sentries for assistance)
Honestly, the fix to sentries is really simple, but it won't happen. I won't list damage numbers, but make them cost 5-10 res, one per room, large fire rate, LMG marine damage, and TEMPORARY. Fires automatically at any alien targets for 30 seconds then breaks and falls apart. Build them at robotics factory, they deploy like an arc. Times/damages adjustable. It'd be a ton better than OMG TURRET OP and the game developers making "useless" items on purpose. (That doesnt make sense, why make something and balance it, then tell everyone to avoid it)
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edited February 2013
Turrets can be okay-ish in some offensive scenarios... a forward buffer for a phase gate/armory encampment outside a hive with all three sentries facing the same way down a choke point, for example. They are rather hard-countered by bile bomb, though, and with how popular bile bomb is (because it's good) it does seem rather unwise to invest in something that's either going to have a very short effective timing window or already outclassed by enemy tech.
I feel kind of the same way about mines, although since mines are much more sneaky, easier to deploy and not as expensive they certainly see a lot more effective use. I do wish the answer to almost every marine tech was more varied than "bile bomb!"
15 res and ages to build just so that you get the OPTION of spending res to buy turrets. That means you can't just go "oh look I have 2 marines in cargo next to the hive, lets drop 3 turrets and pwn dat shaite." Instead you gotta plan it ahead, which is meh.
I would be fine with a single turret (much like the old siege cannons from NS1) with modest dmg and armor increases. One that didn't require a battery, were limited to 1 per room, and costs maybe 10 res?
I feel like this would help deter lone wolf lower lifeforms from ninja hitting the power node as well as decreasing the effectiveness of bilebomb against it.
15 res and ages to build just so that you get the OPTION of spending res to buy turrets. That means you can't just go "oh look I have 2 marines in cargo next to the hive, lets drop 3 turrets and pwn dat shaite." Instead you gotta plan it ahead, which is meh.
Having to think and plan is exactly what this game should be about. Strategy. The issue with Sentries as they are is they really don't fit into any strategy. They're currently too expensive and ineffective to bear any real positive impact on a match, however, All-in v Nexzil (ENSL NA DIV 1 Final) certainly gave it a good shot.
If bile bomb wasn't in the game sentries would be fine.
They dont defend anything alone but they do add some damage, assist defenders and delay the munching of more important things.
Maybe if they cost pRes and had different research requirements they'd be an alternative to mines in some situations since mines are more effective but limited in potential/ always "lost" res.
I'd rather have a dual exos weight in sentries than the Exo cause while both are useless the Exo also costs a player! This is why you have to be carefull with sentries, if they are good then its like having more players.
It'd help a lot if they'd start by getting rid of the entirely useless sentry battery, or increased it's radius dramatically so you aren't forced to put all three sentries in range of a single bilebomb's splash...
In a nut shell:
- they are not supposed to replace marines (this would be boring and OP by increasing the manpower)
- they are assistance and deterrent (either for covering marines or getting more time when a PG is being attacked)
- upgrades are always to prefer over sentries (Upgrades can't be destroyed by aliens and they affect the whole battle field, not just one room)
- sentries are best used in areas that are heavily contested (as long as marines are around, sentries are like a DPS upgrade)
- never defend something that is worth less than the setup itself (Sentries for a RT? This is just stupid.)
- don't try to build unbeatable sentry-nests (this doesn't exist anyway. So better focus on pointing the sentries at an entrance or important buildings, instead of the battery)
- a sentry battery in a corner with 2 sentries facing out and 1 in is the nearest you can get to "unbeatable"
- a forward base near a hive is always contested by aliens and full of marines (this is a very good place to use sentries for assistance)
I disagree with your point regarding the RT. In some cases, especially in early-mid game, if an RT repeatedly gets destroyed a few mins after you build and require a certain time to get someone to respond to the threat, it is preferred to place sentries to avoid diverting manpower continuously and continue to spend 10-20-30 res just to replace the RT so the skulk can come back and harass the same point over and over again.
Again, as a commander, you have to judge if it is worth spending that resource so your teammates can focus on other aspects of the map and not have to run back to the same spot all the time.
But then I personally find sentries getting destroyed too easily, and requires a small buff, but still useful if used well with a good communicating team.
15 res and ages to build just so that you get the OPTION of spending res to buy turrets. That means you can't just go "oh look I have 2 marines in cargo next to the hive, lets drop 3 turrets and pwn dat shaite." Instead you gotta plan it ahead, which is meh.
Having to think and plan is exactly what this game should be about. Strategy. The issue with Sentries as they are is they really don't fit into any strategy.
...which is meh, BECAUSE there are so little strategies they fit into, so that 15 res has a big chance of being a waste.
In a nut shell:
- they are not supposed to replace marines (this would be boring and OP by increasing the manpower)
- they are assistance and deterrent (either for covering marines or getting more time when a PG is being attacked)
- upgrades are always to prefer over sentries (Upgrades can't be destroyed by aliens and they affect the whole battle field, not just one room)
- sentries are best used in areas that are heavily contested (as long as marines are around, sentries are like a DPS upgrade)
- never defend something that is worth less than the setup itself (Sentries for a RT? This is just stupid.)
- don't try to build unbeatable sentry-nests (this doesn't exist anyway. So better focus on pointing the sentries at an entrance or important buildings, instead of the battery)
- a sentry battery in a corner with 2 sentries facing out and 1 in is the nearest you can get to "unbeatable"
- a forward base near a hive is always contested by aliens and full of marines (this is a very good place to use sentries for assistance)
I disagree with your point regarding the RT. In some cases, especially in early-mid game, if an RT repeatedly gets destroyed a few mins after you build and require a certain time to get someone to respond to the threat, it is preferred to place sentries to avoid diverting manpower continuously and continue to spend 10-20-30 res just to replace the RT so the skulk can come back and harass the same point over and over again.
Again, as a commander, you have to judge if it is worth spending that resource so your teammates can focus on other aspects of the map and not have to run back to the same spot all the time.
But you don't rescue the RT this way. You just change the target for the skulk into something much more delicately. They go down much faster than a RT and every skulk finds a position to bring them down. The best way to win is to damage the enemies economy. Building sentries and letting them alone is a gift to the enemy.
The money spent on TF + one sentry outpost is always better spent on a PG that will enable marines to quickly respond to harassing skulks. If you're not holding points properly without sentries then you need to look not at your comming strategy (there's only one really: rushing PGs, gotta love the strategic depth) but more likely at your team.
Everyone who's played NS 1 and the beta will be able to tell you that sentries were in fact not that big of a deal, it's only when people started building ridiculous amounts of them that they became problematic, usually at a point when marines had already lost but just wanted to turtle bases for the hell of it. The old sentries (and without this ridiculous battery system) + a cap of 4 combined with spore blocking (and stomp disabling) would have addressed the problem easily. Unfortunately though that was never tested, instead UWE just nerfed them into the ground and argued that they were broken by design.
DC_DarklingJoin Date: 2003-07-10Member: 18068Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver
* remove the battery. (optional)
* lock max amount of sentries placed to the amount of active CC.
* Enable free placement. (or partially free)
* make them cost almost nothing. (see max amount of sentries)
balance that right and you can place a sentry somewhere to help, at a limited cost, while still being useful. Problem is it looks a lot like a hydra then, so perhaps think how to include a battery of sorts still.
Comments
Ground troops should counter ground troops.
Commanders should counter commanders.
A gay strat to try in pub server, have your marines rush 2 tech areas and drop sentries straight away, if you've got 2-3 res nodes you can easily handle it and once you get the other 2 res nodes in the tech points you should sit comfortably around 4-6. Very easy to tech up on that amount of RTs and by 6-8 mins you'll have phases, armoury and obs up and maybe even a arms lab if you're lucky. You just need to triangle them in the open areas in tech points, hives like gen/locker or XR/sub/atrium are a nightmare to take back at 3-6 mins with 3 sentries up and 2-3 marines.
Shoutouts to Ruski for doing this nearly every time people allow him in the chair, a lot of people stop saying sentries are useless after they've sat on 1 tech point for 10 mins and try herding cats to take them back. They're just very niche right now.
I am often discouraged from hitting defended locations, even if they have no actual players there, if there are sentries set up in an intelligent way. This deterrent applies to skulks, lerks, fades and gorges when they don't have bile bomb. Sentry nests are easy targets for gorges who have bile bomb, as are all structures, but an equally easy target is your entire base, so setting up the sentries outside of your main clump of base buildings means that you will lose 20 res worth of turrets, while keeping 20 res worth of structures which are actually important.
Even when an Onos attacks, 3 sentries can nicely supplement the damage output to an Onos who is no doubt more preoccupied with attacking marines.
I really don't see the problem with them.
I actually kind of wish there were more things like turrets that balance in this way, as they would help the marines out in pubs but be left out of comp as they don't have any use there.
- they are not supposed to replace marines (this would be boring and OP by increasing the manpower)
- they are assistance and deterrent (either for covering marines or getting more time when a PG is being attacked)
- upgrades are always to prefer over sentries (Upgrades can't be destroyed by aliens and they affect the whole battle field, not just one room)
- sentries are best used in areas that are heavily contested (as long as marines are around, sentries are like a DPS upgrade)
- never defend something that is worth less than the setup itself (Sentries for a RT? This is just stupid.)
- don't try to build unbeatable sentry-nests (this doesn't exist anyway. So better focus on pointing the sentries at an entrance or important buildings, instead of the battery)
- a sentry battery in a corner with 2 sentries facing out and 1 in is the nearest you can get to "unbeatable"
- a forward base near a hive is always contested by aliens and full of marines (this is a very good place to use sentries for assistance)
Do you want more info / opinions? Use the search there are soooo many threads about sentries already. This was the last one: http://forums.unknownworlds.com/discussion/127301/aliens-win-too-much-suggesting-sentry-changes
In NS1, you could put all 4 mines under the PG, and the mines would not set one another off either. Fun times.
I feel kind of the same way about mines, although since mines are much more sneaky, easier to deploy and not as expensive they certainly see a lot more effective use. I do wish the answer to almost every marine tech was more varied than "bile bomb!"
15 res and ages to build just so that you get the OPTION of spending res to buy turrets. That means you can't just go "oh look I have 2 marines in cargo next to the hive, lets drop 3 turrets and pwn dat shaite." Instead you gotta plan it ahead, which is meh.
I feel like this would help deter lone wolf lower lifeforms from ninja hitting the power node as well as decreasing the effectiveness of bilebomb against it.
Having to think and plan is exactly what this game should be about. Strategy. The issue with Sentries as they are is they really don't fit into any strategy. They're currently too expensive and ineffective to bear any real positive impact on a match, however, All-in v Nexzil (ENSL NA DIV 1 Final) certainly gave it a good shot.
They dont defend anything alone but they do add some damage, assist defenders and delay the munching of more important things.
Maybe if they cost pRes and had different research requirements they'd be an alternative to mines in some situations since mines are more effective but limited in potential/ always "lost" res.
I'd rather have a dual exos weight in sentries than the Exo cause while both are useless the Exo also costs a player! This is why you have to be carefull with sentries, if they are good then its like having more players.
I disagree with your point regarding the RT. In some cases, especially in early-mid game, if an RT repeatedly gets destroyed a few mins after you build and require a certain time to get someone to respond to the threat, it is preferred to place sentries to avoid diverting manpower continuously and continue to spend 10-20-30 res just to replace the RT so the skulk can come back and harass the same point over and over again.
Again, as a commander, you have to judge if it is worth spending that resource so your teammates can focus on other aspects of the map and not have to run back to the same spot all the time.
But then I personally find sentries getting destroyed too easily, and requires a small buff, but still useful if used well with a good communicating team.
wait for the content update and how the competitive scene reacts to it.
right now i ve started to see sentries in competitive games.
...which is meh, BECAUSE there are so little strategies they fit into, so that 15 res has a big chance of being a waste.
But you don't rescue the RT this way. You just change the target for the skulk into something much more delicately. They go down much faster than a RT and every skulk finds a position to bring them down. The best way to win is to damage the enemies economy. Building sentries and letting them alone is a gift to the enemy.
Everyone who's played NS 1 and the beta will be able to tell you that sentries were in fact not that big of a deal, it's only when people started building ridiculous amounts of them that they became problematic, usually at a point when marines had already lost but just wanted to turtle bases for the hell of it. The old sentries (and without this ridiculous battery system) + a cap of 4 combined with spore blocking (and stomp disabling) would have addressed the problem easily. Unfortunately though that was never tested, instead UWE just nerfed them into the ground and argued that they were broken by design.
* lock max amount of sentries placed to the amount of active CC.
* Enable free placement. (or partially free)
* make them cost almost nothing. (see max amount of sentries)
balance that right and you can place a sentry somewhere to help, at a limited cost, while still being useful. Problem is it looks a lot like a hydra then, so perhaps think how to include a battery of sorts still.