I think some of the alien abilities need to be brought back in line a bit so to speak, but not nerfed. I think bilebomb is obnoxious as hell, but if it was buffed a teensy bit, made 3 hive only, and alerted the marine commander when ANY STRUCTURE INCLUDING POWER NODES were being hit, it'd be pretty balanced.
<!--quoteo(post=2066435:date=Jan 25 2013, 11:59 AM:name=CommunistWithAGun)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (CommunistWithAGun @ Jan 25 2013, 11:59 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2066435"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think some of the alien abilities need to be brought back in line a bit so to speak, but not nerfed. I think bilebomb is obnoxious as hell, but if it was buffed a teensy bit, made 3 hive only, and alerted the marine commander when ANY STRUCTURE INCLUDING POWER NODES were being hit, it'd be pretty balanced.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
But now you have the chicken/egg thing - in most of the games I play, bilebomb is used to GET that third hive location.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If I want to bile rush a structure in marine base, and there is only one marine their defending, I will destroy whatever my target is (so long as it isn't a power node or a comm chair).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not disagreeing that this isn't possible, but if there is one marine who is a decent shot, he will usually kill me before I do any significant damage even if I had carapace, and I do the whole dodging/hiding behind structures thing.
Do you rush straight into the marine base from outside as a gorge?
<!--quoteo(post=2066220:date=Jan 24 2013, 09:57 PM:name=GameWarrior2216)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GameWarrior2216 @ Jan 24 2013, 09:57 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2066220"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You are assuming this is only from being attacked. I have killed countless marines as a Gorge using spit while alone and like me, they have trouble dodging spit. Not as easy as you put it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not impressed with your kills. It's not impossible to kill a marine as a Gorge. But to say that the fight is so Gorge favored that their spit damage should be reduced is a joke at best. Spit IS easy to dodge, if you can properly apply different tactics to your dodge such as baiting, using cover, etc. Spits projectile moves fast, but not as fast as LMG bullets.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If a Lerk is attacking in a small, cramped space then I agree with you. However, large rooms is a Lerk paradise and harder to spot even if you know in which direction they are attacking from. Also, low DPS? I found from a wiki that spike has a fire delay of ~0.17 seconds with a minimum/maximum of 9/12 damage per attack. That's 45-54/60-72 damage per second and I remind you early marines have 100 health with 30 armor, he will die quick.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Are we talking about new marines, or experienced marines here? I can spot a Lerk based on my damage indicator pretty quickly, and if not, its rare that you don't have cover to get behind. Yes, low DPS. A lerk can kill a A0 Marine pretty quickly with spikes, yes, but not fast enough for the marine to not have to respond, get into cover, leave the room, etc. On top of that, the Lerk is a 30 res lifeform. It should be performing better than A0/W0 LMG Marines.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->My assumption is that you either haven't read my entire post or you haven't played the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
ScardyBobScardyBobJoin Date: 2009-11-25Member: 69528Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
I suspect people are confusing the bite DOT and spike damage. In general, most lerks do a quick bite then retreat + spike attack, making it seem like spike has a higher dps than it actually does.
Also, spit damage is fine, but the screen obscuring effect is not. Removing it would fix most of the problem.
Bilebomb OP? Defend more (leaving the base totally undefended is a bad idea), marines should be more observant, (multiple) obs in the right places to see the attack coming (I often evolve to gorge IN the marine base behind a counter or a wall, or even in amongst the foliage in ns2_docking).
If you think it can't be done, you're wrong. It's entirely possible to sneak walk into a marine base without camo and take a risk to gorge up (behind the aforementioned cover) with the shortest distance between you and your target.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
"Marines need to be 100% agressive for the entire game." "Bile Bomb isn't OP Marines just need to defend!"
So.... one of these two very comment statements that keep coming up on the forums can't be right
<!--quoteo(post=2066234:date=Jan 24 2013, 11:05 PM:name=Squishpoke)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Squishpoke @ Jan 24 2013, 11:05 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2066234"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Hyrdas, spit, and spikes are fine. Nerfing them will not change the aliens' win percentages at all.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Hydras are worthless. I see maybe two hydra kills in a day of playing, most of the time they just delay the marines slightly.
Spit is fine because you can't just aim it directly at people and expect a hit. Spikes are fine because they do piddly amounts of damage, and if you sit there spiking something long enough to kill it, either a) The marine is AFK or b) you're not where you're not actively helping your team.
<!--quoteo(post=2066507:date=Jan 25 2013, 12:09 PM:name=ScardyBob)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ScardyBob @ Jan 25 2013, 12:09 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2066507"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I suspect people are confusing the bite DOT and spike damage. In general, most lerks do a quick bite then retreat + spike attack, making it seem like spike has a higher dps than it actually does.
Also, spit damage is fine, but the screen obscuring effect is not. Removing it would fix most of the problem.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I find I tend to die to spikes while still trying to figure out where the attack is coming from. Better damage indication would be nice, especially on the exosuit.
I don't think spikes or spit are that powerful though really. Bilebomb is though, considering how cheap a gorge is.
Well the only thing about Spikes I dont get is the fact that if you hit an EXO with Spikes they get no feed back that they are getting hit other then the fact that their health goes down. It's actually hilariously easy to kill EXOs as a Lerk because of this.
<!--quoteo(post=2066651:date=Jan 25 2013, 01:16 PM:name=Omar - The Wire)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Omar - The Wire @ Jan 25 2013, 01:16 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2066651"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You might want to change the name though. Bile Bomb just strikes the idea of a fat little pigs throw-up weapon.
Fades need something fast and lethal.
I got it! Acid Rocket!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I was thinking of acid rocket actually.
I dunno how well that'd fit with the fade's playstyle, unless it functioned similarly to bile bomb(Damagewise).
<!--quoteo(post=2066654:date=Jan 25 2013, 04:18 PM:name=Frothybeverage)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Frothybeverage @ Jan 25 2013, 04:18 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2066654"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I was thinking of acid rocket actually.
I dunno how well that'd fit with the fade's playstyle, unless it functioned similarly to bile bomb(Damagewise).
Fades are very much a hit 'n' run class.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Acid rocket in NS1 served as a way to soften marines up before going in for the kill. Most fades used them as an opener before a focus swipe, shooting them into the low ceiling to cause inexplicably larger splash damage radius.
Lerks get utterly murdered by anything that can actually hit them, and trying to fight a rifle marine 1 on 1 in the open will probably lead to the lerk coming off worse, because the rifle does quite a bit more damage than the lerk does, and the marine doesn't need to dodge.
Lerks are really good as a support unit yes, but they're quite expensive too, they're well priced for their role and I don't think you need to change them much. I die a lot to marines as a lerk if I use them wrong, and I can do a lot of good playing them right. They're a solid class and only as OP as their role is.
<!--quoteo(post=2066263:date=Jan 25 2013, 04:52 AM:name=Keldorn)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Keldorn @ Jan 25 2013, 04:52 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2066263"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If lerks spikes needs to be nerfed, then shotguns needs to be nerfed equally. Arguebly this would even be a good trade since a shotgun counters about everything.
Why am I saying this? Because a shotgun 1 hit kills skulks in close quarters(lets not mention anything about gorges/lerk/fades in the same situation...), a lerk counters a shotgun marine because of the ranged attack.
You can't have it all, lerk spikes are fine since they require skill to use, so do shotguns. I don't see the problem here.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Shotguns and spikes are not opposites of each other, they are incomparable. Just because one skill/weapon is lowered, another one doesn't have to as well. Your argument makes no sense.
<!--quoteo(post=2066267:date=Jan 25 2013, 05:04 AM:name=neighbs)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (neighbs @ Jan 25 2013, 05:04 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2066267"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Utilizing your team is part of Marine balance. This isn't a 1v1 game, try asking for meds/nano shield. Pay close attention to your early game on Marine because that's where you lose most of the time. Practice your aiming, look up tactics, watch videos. "Buff" your strategies and when you kill off Lerks/Fades by yourself you'll realize these things were never an issue in the game, it was you who didn't understand how to counter them. These are moments of growth and you'll realize it more the better you get, at least I did.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Your whole statement is accusing others it's their own fault for not matching up to your own pretentious skills. No one should have to do homework before playing a game by watching hour long YouTube videos, reading page after page about gameplay tactics, and just "get beter" at the game. No one wants to hear this, no one should, and it's almost insulting for you to have said it.
Moving on.
<!--quoteo(post=2066289:date=Jan 25 2013, 07:05 AM:name=Mr.Greedy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mr.Greedy @ Jan 25 2013, 07:05 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2066289"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Ehm. Do u have forget the shotgun and the flamethrower? Are those weapons for close combat or not? If u want to change spit/spikes than change shotguns/flamethrower too.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
When it comes to ranges, I tend to think there's three different kinds: long, short, and melee. Long is easy to understand but the difference between short and melee is that in melee attacks, the attacker has to be almost touching the other player. I consider spit and spikes to be long ranged attacks while shotguns and flamethrowers to be short ranged so they are two different kinds that don't go hand in hand.
<!--quoteo(post=2066372:date=Jan 25 2013, 10:42 AM:name=targetduck)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (targetduck @ Jan 25 2013, 10:42 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2066372"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->To be honest spike/spit aren't the attacks I thought this would be about.
Spit is very strong at the start versus 0/0 marines. The gorge is frankly a better marine than the marine at 0/0. Its more the price of the gorge that should go up than spit being nerfed or it becomes a pointless attack.
Spikes is in a good place. Its a good attack but its on a fairly costly lifeform. If you are going versus even 1 marine using only spikes you are risking death or very low life to kill a base marine. Its good for weakening marines but you cant risk sticking around to finish as you'll be taking damage yourself. For lone marines you probably need to rush in with bite as well if you want to be effective.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm only quoting half of what you said because the other half is about alien status effects and not attacks.
Bumping up the price of a Gorge may be a better solution but I still think that the Gorge should remain weak because of what it's class does.
I have to disagree that using spikes only is a near death sentence for a Lerk. I have done this plenty of times and have been killed by that very same tactic. This is especially true in large rooms such as Crevice or Cargo where without a scan/observatory it's hard to find a perched Lerk and when they are spotted, they can easily fly away and return a few seconds later to wreak havoc again. Hell, even from behind a Lerk can take down a marine using only needles like a World War I fighter plane without any trouble.
<!--quoteo(post=2066421:date=Jan 25 2013, 11:44 AM:name=MiniH0wie)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MiniH0wie @ Jan 25 2013, 11:44 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2066421"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I will once you stop trolling.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I just had to say, you don't know what trolling is.
<!--quoteo(post=2066485:date=Jan 25 2013, 12:50 PM:name=Afterhours)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Afterhours @ Jan 25 2013, 12:50 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2066485"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm not impressed with your kills. It's not impossible to kill a marine as a Gorge. But to say that the fight is so Gorge favored that their spit damage should be reduced is a joke at best. Spit IS easy to dodge, if you can properly apply different tactics to your dodge such as baiting, using cover, etc. Spits projectile moves fast, but not as fast as LMG bullets.
Are we talking about new marines, or experienced marines here? I can spot a Lerk based on my damage indicator pretty quickly, and if not, its rare that you don't have cover to get behind. Yes, low DPS. A lerk can kill a A0 Marine pretty quickly with spikes, yes, but not fast enough for the marine to not have to respond, get into cover, leave the room, etc. On top of that, the Lerk is a 30 res lifeform. It should be performing better than A0/W0 LMG Marines.
You know what they say about assumptions.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You are replacing difficult with impossible and overpowered with godlike. You can dodge spit, I can dodge spit, everyone can dodge spit but not every time and that is good. I really have no problem with trying to dodge spit actually, it's a little troubling to dodge every time since the marines move slow in comparison to the aliens. But when you get hit however, you are temporarily partially blind and can get hit with a chain of spits. This is where my major complaint starts because when a marine is running toward a Gorge blind, a few hits later he drops dead. In my opinion, this should not be. As I said before, I feel that the Gorge should be the weakest alien of them all and should have a hard time taking down a single marine.
I am talking about both and you just proved my point on early Lerk rushes. Even a marine with +1 armor is tougher to kill when he's alone but it's feasible, any higher and it's not worth it. It's possible for it to happen because I've done it as well as others, it exists. I don't know what else I can say about this. My experience is different than yours and in my experience, it's a problem.
And no, I don't know what they say about assumptions.
<!--quoteo(post=2066507:date=Jan 25 2013, 01:09 PM:name=ScardyBob)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ScardyBob @ Jan 25 2013, 01:09 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2066507"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I suspect people are confusing the bite DOT and spike damage. In general, most lerks do a quick bite then retreat + spike attack, making it seem like spike has a higher dps than it actually does.
Also, spit damage is fine, but the screen obscuring effect is not. Removing it would fix most of the problem.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't have a problem with bite+spike(or spike+bite), it's when you're getting shot and having to find the culprit, especially in a large room or a room with a lot of hidden areas in which a Lerk can hide in. During that time, you can dance all you want to but you'll get shot down while in mid fire of shooting it.
I think screen obscuring wouldn't be a problem if that is the main focus on spit and not the damage output.
There are so many topics discussing possible ways to bring better balance to the game (although for the current build, I am *STILL* at 50:50 winrate...), but simply nerfing the aliens attacks seems ridiculous.
I'm not a competition player, I only play on pubs (but I'm keen to have a go with public gathers on ENSL). NS has always had a steep learning curve, but it seems to me that the very best way to get people into the game is with voice communication in game. When people realise that rambo = certain death and team loss, they generally start to communicate and play as a team. Honestly, the L2P element really does exist, even if there is still a global advantage to aliens (which, if true, I agree does still need to be addressed in some form). However, addressing whatever imbalance remains is a tricky business and care should be taken not to go too far in any one step. Good marines can still beat good aliens (just look at some of the ENSL matches for proof of this), so 'balance' isn't really that far off.
There is a big content patch coming up soon. I'm suggesting we hold off getting too reactionary with balance issues before then. The game is still changing frequently - now is not the time for drastic changes to one side or the other. In the mean time, pick up your microphone, jump on a server, and say hello. If no-one on your team responds over mic, leave and find another server where there are people who DO communicate. It makes ALL the difference to marine teams, really, it does!
<!--quoteo(post=2066909:date=Jan 26 2013, 12:57 AM:name=GameWarrior2216)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GameWarrior2216 @ Jan 26 2013, 12:57 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2066909"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Your whole statement is accusing others it's their own fault for not matching up to your own pretentious skills. No one should have to do homework before playing a game by watching hour long YouTube videos, reading page after page about gameplay tactics, and just "get beter" at the game. No one wants to hear this, no one should, and it's almost insulting for you to have said it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm sorry you chose to come to the "support forums" to start arguments and I was just offering my advice. Its fine if your choice is to not take my advice and I'm sorry if you were insulted.
Comments
But now you have the chicken/egg thing - in most of the games I play, bilebomb is used to GET that third hive location.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If I want to bile rush a structure in marine base, and there is only one marine their defending, I will destroy whatever my target is (so long as it isn't a power node or a comm chair).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not disagreeing that this isn't possible, but if there is one marine who is a decent shot, he will usually kill me before I do any significant damage even if I had carapace, and I do the whole dodging/hiding behind structures thing.
Do you rush straight into the marine base from outside as a gorge?
I'm not impressed with your kills. It's not impossible to kill a marine as a Gorge. But to say that the fight is so Gorge favored that their spit damage should be reduced is a joke at best. Spit IS easy to dodge, if you can properly apply different tactics to your dodge such as baiting, using cover, etc. Spits projectile moves fast, but not as fast as LMG bullets.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If a Lerk is attacking in a small, cramped space then I agree with you. However, large rooms is a Lerk paradise and harder to spot even if you know in which direction they are attacking from. Also, low DPS? I found from a wiki that spike has a fire delay of ~0.17 seconds with a minimum/maximum of 9/12 damage per attack. That's 45-54/60-72 damage per second and I remind you early marines have 100 health with 30 armor, he will die quick.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Are we talking about new marines, or experienced marines here? I can spot a Lerk based on my damage indicator pretty quickly, and if not, its rare that you don't have cover to get behind. Yes, low DPS. A lerk can kill a A0 Marine pretty quickly with spikes, yes, but not fast enough for the marine to not have to respond, get into cover, leave the room, etc. On top of that, the Lerk is a 30 res lifeform. It should be performing better than A0/W0 LMG Marines.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->My assumption is that you either haven't read my entire post or you haven't played the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You know what they say about assumptions.
Also, spit damage is fine, but the screen obscuring effect is not. Removing it would fix most of the problem.
Especially regarding bilebomb.
Bilebomb OP? Defend more (leaving the base totally undefended is a bad idea), marines should be more observant, (multiple) obs in the right places to see the attack coming (I often evolve to gorge IN the marine base behind a counter or a wall, or even in amongst the foliage in ns2_docking).
If you think it can't be done, you're wrong. It's entirely possible to sneak walk into a marine base without camo and take a risk to gorge up (behind the aforementioned cover) with the shortest distance between you and your target.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
"Marines need to be 100% agressive for the entire game."
"Bile Bomb isn't OP Marines just need to defend!"
So.... one of these two very comment statements that keep coming up on the forums can't be right
Hydras are worthless.
I see maybe two hydra kills in a day of playing, most of the time they just delay the marines slightly.
Spit is fine because you can't just aim it directly at people and expect a hit.
Spikes are fine because they do piddly amounts of damage, and if you sit there spiking something long enough to kill it, either a) The marine is AFK or b) you're not where you're not actively helping your team.
Also, spit damage is fine, but the screen obscuring effect is not. Removing it would fix most of the problem.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I find I tend to die to spikes while still trying to figure out where the attack is coming from. Better damage indication would be nice, especially on the exosuit.
I don't think spikes or spit are that powerful though really. Bilebomb is though, considering how cheap a gorge is.
Fades have no place in the end game right now.
Fades have no place in the end game right now.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You might want to change the name though. Bile Bomb just strikes the idea of a fat little pigs throw-up weapon.
Fades need something fast and lethal.
I got it! Acid Rocket!
Fades need something fast and lethal.
I got it! Acid Rocket!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I was thinking of acid rocket actually.
I dunno how well that'd fit with the fade's playstyle, unless it functioned similarly to bile bomb(Damagewise).
Fades are very much a hit 'n' run class.
I dunno how well that'd fit with the fade's playstyle, unless it functioned similarly to bile bomb(Damagewise).
Fades are very much a hit 'n' run class.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Acid rocket in NS1 served as a way to soften marines up before going in for the kill. Most fades used them as an opener before a focus swipe, shooting them into the low ceiling to cause inexplicably larger splash damage radius.
Lerks are really good as a support unit yes, but they're quite expensive too, they're well priced for their role and I don't think you need to change them much. I die a lot to marines as a lerk if I use them wrong, and I can do a lot of good playing them right. They're a solid class and only as OP as their role is.
<!--quoteo(post=2066263:date=Jan 25 2013, 04:52 AM:name=Keldorn)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Keldorn @ Jan 25 2013, 04:52 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2066263"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If lerks spikes needs to be nerfed, then shotguns needs to be nerfed equally. Arguebly this would even be a good trade since a shotgun counters about everything.
Why am I saying this? Because a shotgun 1 hit kills skulks in close quarters(lets not mention anything about gorges/lerk/fades in the same situation...), a lerk counters a shotgun marine because of the ranged attack.
You can't have it all, lerk spikes are fine since they require skill to use, so do shotguns. I don't see the problem here.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Shotguns and spikes are not opposites of each other, they are incomparable. Just because one skill/weapon is lowered, another one doesn't have to as well. Your argument makes no sense.
<!--quoteo(post=2066267:date=Jan 25 2013, 05:04 AM:name=neighbs)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (neighbs @ Jan 25 2013, 05:04 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2066267"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Utilizing your team is part of Marine balance. This isn't a 1v1 game, try asking for meds/nano shield. Pay close attention to your early game on Marine because that's where you lose most of the time. Practice your aiming, look up tactics, watch videos. "Buff" your strategies and when you kill off Lerks/Fades by yourself you'll realize these things were never an issue in the game, it was you who didn't understand how to counter them. These are moments of growth and you'll realize it more the better you get, at least I did.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Your whole statement is accusing others it's their own fault for not matching up to your own pretentious skills. No one should have to do homework before playing a game by watching hour long YouTube videos, reading page after page about gameplay tactics, and just "get beter" at the game. No one wants to hear this, no one should, and it's almost insulting for you to have said it.
Moving on.
<!--quoteo(post=2066289:date=Jan 25 2013, 07:05 AM:name=Mr.Greedy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mr.Greedy @ Jan 25 2013, 07:05 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2066289"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Ehm. Do u have forget the shotgun and the flamethrower? Are those weapons for close combat or not? If u want to change spit/spikes than change shotguns/flamethrower too.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
When it comes to ranges, I tend to think there's three different kinds: long, short, and melee. Long is easy to understand but the difference between short and melee is that in melee attacks, the attacker has to be almost touching the other player. I consider spit and spikes to be long ranged attacks while shotguns and flamethrowers to be short ranged so they are two different kinds that don't go hand in hand.
<!--quoteo(post=2066372:date=Jan 25 2013, 10:42 AM:name=targetduck)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (targetduck @ Jan 25 2013, 10:42 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2066372"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->To be honest spike/spit aren't the attacks I thought this would be about.
Spit is very strong at the start versus 0/0 marines. The gorge is frankly a better marine than the marine at 0/0. Its more the price of the gorge that should go up than spit being nerfed or it becomes a pointless attack.
Spikes is in a good place. Its a good attack but its on a fairly costly lifeform. If you are going versus even 1 marine using only spikes you are risking death or very low life to kill a base marine. Its good for weakening marines but you cant risk sticking around to finish as you'll be taking damage yourself. For lone marines you probably need to rush in with bite as well if you want to be effective.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm only quoting half of what you said because the other half is about alien status effects and not attacks.
Bumping up the price of a Gorge may be a better solution but I still think that the Gorge should remain weak because of what it's class does.
I have to disagree that using spikes only is a near death sentence for a Lerk. I have done this plenty of times and have been killed by that very same tactic. This is especially true in large rooms such as Crevice or Cargo where without a scan/observatory it's hard to find a perched Lerk and when they are spotted, they can easily fly away and return a few seconds later to wreak havoc again. Hell, even from behind a Lerk can take down a marine using only needles like a World War I fighter plane without any trouble.
<!--quoteo(post=2066421:date=Jan 25 2013, 11:44 AM:name=MiniH0wie)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MiniH0wie @ Jan 25 2013, 11:44 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2066421"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I will once you stop trolling.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I just had to say, you don't know what trolling is.
<!--quoteo(post=2066485:date=Jan 25 2013, 12:50 PM:name=Afterhours)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Afterhours @ Jan 25 2013, 12:50 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2066485"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm not impressed with your kills. It's not impossible to kill a marine as a Gorge. But to say that the fight is so Gorge favored that their spit damage should be reduced is a joke at best. Spit IS easy to dodge, if you can properly apply different tactics to your dodge such as baiting, using cover, etc. Spits projectile moves fast, but not as fast as LMG bullets.
Are we talking about new marines, or experienced marines here? I can spot a Lerk based on my damage indicator pretty quickly, and if not, its rare that you don't have cover to get behind. Yes, low DPS. A lerk can kill a A0 Marine pretty quickly with spikes, yes, but not fast enough for the marine to not have to respond, get into cover, leave the room, etc. On top of that, the Lerk is a 30 res lifeform. It should be performing better than A0/W0 LMG Marines.
You know what they say about assumptions.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You are replacing difficult with impossible and overpowered with godlike. You can dodge spit, I can dodge spit, everyone can dodge spit but not every time and that is good. I really have no problem with trying to dodge spit actually, it's a little troubling to dodge every time since the marines move slow in comparison to the aliens. But when you get hit however, you are temporarily partially blind and can get hit with a chain of spits. This is where my major complaint starts because when a marine is running toward a Gorge blind, a few hits later he drops dead. In my opinion, this should not be. As I said before, I feel that the Gorge should be the weakest alien of them all and should have a hard time taking down a single marine.
I am talking about both and you just proved my point on early Lerk rushes. Even a marine with +1 armor is tougher to kill when he's alone but it's feasible, any higher and it's not worth it. It's possible for it to happen because I've done it as well as others, it exists. I don't know what else I can say about this. My experience is different than yours and in my experience, it's a problem.
And no, I don't know what they say about assumptions.
<!--quoteo(post=2066507:date=Jan 25 2013, 01:09 PM:name=ScardyBob)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ScardyBob @ Jan 25 2013, 01:09 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2066507"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I suspect people are confusing the bite DOT and spike damage. In general, most lerks do a quick bite then retreat + spike attack, making it seem like spike has a higher dps than it actually does.
Also, spit damage is fine, but the screen obscuring effect is not. Removing it would fix most of the problem.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't have a problem with bite+spike(or spike+bite), it's when you're getting shot and having to find the culprit, especially in a large room or a room with a lot of hidden areas in which a Lerk can hide in. During that time, you can dance all you want to but you'll get shot down while in mid fire of shooting it.
I think screen obscuring wouldn't be a problem if that is the main focus on spit and not the damage output.
There are so many topics discussing possible ways to bring better balance to the game (although for the current build, I am *STILL* at 50:50 winrate...), but simply nerfing the aliens attacks seems ridiculous.
I'm not a competition player, I only play on pubs (but I'm keen to have a go with public gathers on ENSL). NS has always had a steep learning curve, but it seems to me that the very best way to get people into the game is with voice communication in game. When people realise that rambo = certain death and team loss, they generally start to communicate and play as a team. Honestly, the L2P element really does exist, even if there is still a global advantage to aliens (which, if true, I agree does still need to be addressed in some form).
However, addressing whatever imbalance remains is a tricky business and care should be taken not to go too far in any one step. Good marines can still beat good aliens (just look at some of the ENSL matches for proof of this), so 'balance' isn't really that far off.
There is a big content patch coming up soon. I'm suggesting we hold off getting too reactionary with balance issues before then. The game is still changing frequently - now is not the time for drastic changes to one side or the other. In the mean time, pick up your microphone, jump on a server, and say hello. If no-one on your team responds over mic, leave and find another server where there are people who DO communicate. It makes ALL the difference to marine teams, really, it does!
I'm sorry you chose to come to the "support forums" to start arguments and I was just offering my advice. Its fine if your choice is to not take my advice and I'm sorry if you were insulted.