Umbra too powerful?
Lunos
Join Date: 2009-08-18 Member: 68518Members
Join Date: 2009-08-18 Member: 68518Members
Just what the title says, do you think Umbra is too powerful in its current form? I understand the need for combined arms tactics but a single Onos with stomp and Gorge support is a beast to take down already and if you have a smart Lerk dropping Umbra the Onos/Onii becomes damn near unkillable during a base rush. Marines simply don't have any weapon barring Exos miniguns that can put out any sort of real damage to stop them. Saying that, the Onos can get Umbra but the Marine commander can't nano the Exos. It just feels like salt in the wound. Maybe this is just a by product of Exos being useless but either way when I see Lerks dropping Umbra everywhere I know things are about to get real ugly for the Marines.
Comments
Of course it's not so weak that I don't research it, unlike Xeno and Vortex, but for a late game tech I don't really feel it brings enough to the table.
The paradigm shift it introduces for the Lerk is too substantial in my opinion, and has too big an affect on gameplay to only appear once the game is essentially already won. Mind you, perhaps with balance changes 3 hives won't automatically mean alien victory in the vast majority of cases, if thats the direction UWE wants to go in.
and i'm of the opinion that at least a couple of the maps only have 4 tech points, so it'd be 3 and 1. in any regards, marine only needs 2 ever, but if marines aren't in a position to deny the 3rd hive, then they are losing.
I agree. I understand that with the current metagame 3 hives is already a game over but it's definitely wrong for people to think that it SHOULD be this way. Three hives should never guarantee victory like it currently does and to bring this in line I believe certain things such as Umbra will need to be adjusted, hence my asking if people thought Umbra was too good. With the current setup it feels like UWE basically WANTS the Aliens to win if it reaches that point.
Edit: amoral but that still basically means the Marines MUST capture three bases or they "lose by default". So no, Marines do not only need two bases ever. The only exception is the four tech maps.
I don't know what UWEs opinion on this is. But I think, that 3 hives vs 2 CCs should be a balanced game.
Simply because a game should be decided by skill, not by a boring game-mechanic. If it really should end when aliens got 3 hives up, why do we need to endure the boring 10 - 20 minutes of marine turtle until the game ends finally. It's not that this is fun. So if you really think, the aliens should automatically win with 3 hives. We should have the "aliens win" screen at this time. Instead of heaving to endure fights against overpowered aliens we can't win anyway.
Also, a game gets more interesting the longer the winner CAN'T be determined. So having 3 hives vs 2 CCs being balanced is a better approach in my opinion. The ONE map that has only 4 Tech points is a very accurate conversation of a NS1 map. It is a welcome variety and changes the game play. So I'm ok with it. But in the end, summit and tram feel much more balanced. So the "normal" game should be with 5 tech points. But that's probably just my opinion.
To say something to the state we have right now: I think aliens are overpowered in the late game. But this is not a problem of Umbra or other 3-hive-abilities. The problem is, that you need at least 3 marines to get 1 onos down. With just 3 onos, a marine team on a 16 player server can simply do nothing against a base rush. Not even to mention what happens when the rest of the alien team joins the 3 onos as gorges and sporing lerks.
<u>This makes the answer to the second question easy:</u>
Umbra isn't overpowered. The onos concept with its really low skill floor and ceiling is. Thats why I beg for a weaker onos with the bone-shield ability.
Well, a single Exo <i>can </i>take up to 1.5 Onos on, if positioned correctly (solo). However an Onos can never increase the number of Exos he can take on, regardless of what he does.
In reality the marines can't sacrifice this much mobility to block the 3 onos out of their bases AND have a chance of winning the game. Because they need to push to win. And than they let their bases alone.
In reality the marines can't sacrifice this much mobility to block the 3 onos out of their bases AND have a chance of winning the game. Because they need to push to win. And than they let their bases alone.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You're spot on with this assessment.
I wonder if moving bile bomb to a 3rd hive ability would help to balance the mid game better. Personally I don't think aliens are overpowered at the end game (they lack a real siege unit in comparison to marines when they're steamrollering). However, the mid-game is where marines are most vulnerable. Once bile and leap are up, and aliens have 2 upgrades to make all lifeforms more viable, they usually have the edge because of the greater mobility. Bilebomb is the best alien siege weapon in the game. I wonder if it actually just comes in too early...
But the high price does balance the flamer fine, in my opinion. At least it isn't that dominant in late game, as you would think it is, if it were overpowered.
I wonder if moving bile bomb to a 3rd hive ability would help to balance the mid game better. Personally I don't think aliens are overpowered at the end game (they lack a real siege unit in comparison to marines when they're steamrollering). However, the mid-game is where marines are most vulnerable. Once bile and leap are up, and aliens have 2 upgrades to make all lifeforms more viable, they usually have the edge because of the greater mobility. Bilebomb is the best alien siege weapon in the game. I wonder if it actually just comes in too early...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Delaying those marines techs as well might be an option, but then the problem remains that marines are on a countdown concerning alien units. Marines would need three CCs for their strongest unit, yet aliens can roll out Fades and Onos even at a single Hive and simply roll over the marines.
It would be interesting to see the how this metagame change would play out: ARCs get moved to 2nd CC and Exos get moved to 3rd CC but get buffed a bit in return. Aliens need to get lifeforms higher than the Gorge researched by the khammander. Lerk is researchable at 1st Hive, Fade at 2nd Hive and Onos at 3rd Hive.
It would at least give marines a way of denying Onos if they can deny the third Hive. And likewise can aliens deny Exos if they can deny the third CC.
This made me chuckle.
GG
GG<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
UWE should troll people by secretly patching Gorge, Lerk and Onos names into Pig, Bird and Rhino.
Much chuckles would be had.
Much chuckles would be had.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I smell Aprils Fools Day!
Lorks and Shirtgus for all, Commando!
Are you serious?
Flamethrower is a terrible weapon. Aliens have so much stamina that the stamina drain means nothing, it has short range and low damage.
The only reason to take it at all is for the anti gas property, which sucks because now you are lerk food because you
have no range.
Its a necessary support weapon because without it you lose to gas, but having to use it makes your team lose a player because its crap against every lifeform.
Much chuckles would be had.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I suggest Gip, Drib and Onihr.
Flamethrower is a terrible weapon. Aliens have so much stamina that the stamina drain means nothing, it has short range and low damage.
The only reason to take it at all is for the anti gas property, which sucks because now you are lerk food because you
have no range.
Its a necessary support weapon because without it you lose to gas, but having to use it makes your team lose a player because its crap against every lifeform.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No. It shuts down fades, kills skulks without even needing to aim, and prevents Onos from getting away. Aliens do not have "so much stamina that the stamina drain means nothing" In fact if they are doing anything other than basic attacks they drain stamina faster than marines drain LMG ammo.
and like poker, the stakes are getting higher and higher and once they are so high that all you can do is going all in because there will be a now or never situation.
in earlygame everything is possible you can fail with a arc/shotgun/baserush and still win the game an other way around, but there is a point at which the game is decided once and for all. u cant do a second arc train exo jp push in lategame if u lost it once to onii and other lifeforms, because they will either go for your base or all your rts next and you wont be able to pump out the hard counters so fast again.
i mean if they would loose all their lifeforms and the marines would all die to a last second spawn wave, well maybe everything is reset to null, but than its still 3-3 rines vs skulks with cara and leap, which is... well... also a decided game i guess :D
Where does the game go from there then? If that's how it's going to be then we may as well just start the map with all the hives and CCs already spawned and full tech researched.
they tried that abomination.
Its called combat.