Humans in vents
Shaamaan
Join Date: 2013-01-01 Member: 176961Members
Join Date: 2013-01-01 Member: 176961Members
<div class="IPBDescription">If this is deliberate, it's silly</div>Not all vents, not all the time!
A round has started on Veil, and as a Kharaa I went to check up on Skylights via the vent. Sure enough, an extractor is there, and a human. He fires a few shots, but I retreat... what I didn't expect at all was the human to enter the vent shortly after and shoot me dead.
I had to quit, and check WTF was going on.
Indeed, there's a panel that a player can jump up on.
Is this intended?
If so, then here's what I think: THIS S*** IS BANANAS! This kind of thing is what I'd personally consider an exploit. A game that HIDES mechanics or movement paths from new players isn't a good game - it caters exclusively to maniacs. I don't want to spend god-knows how much time trying every possible vent (or path, or jump) on every possible map because someone else found a way to traverse / squeeze in / jump over it.
(PS. Yes, I am a bit angry. When my natural reaction in game is "WTF?" and the player casually responds "I jumped", I smell foul play - especially since I had been in that room as a human many times before. And no, it didn't occur to me to try and use that panel to get in there, because it's completely unreal. The panel seems to be purely to "look nice" and - given how high humans can jump - I never even felt the inclination to check it!)
A round has started on Veil, and as a Kharaa I went to check up on Skylights via the vent. Sure enough, an extractor is there, and a human. He fires a few shots, but I retreat... what I didn't expect at all was the human to enter the vent shortly after and shoot me dead.
I had to quit, and check WTF was going on.
Indeed, there's a panel that a player can jump up on.
Is this intended?
If so, then here's what I think: THIS S*** IS BANANAS! This kind of thing is what I'd personally consider an exploit. A game that HIDES mechanics or movement paths from new players isn't a good game - it caters exclusively to maniacs. I don't want to spend god-knows how much time trying every possible vent (or path, or jump) on every possible map because someone else found a way to traverse / squeeze in / jump over it.
(PS. Yes, I am a bit angry. When my natural reaction in game is "WTF?" and the player casually responds "I jumped", I smell foul play - especially since I had been in that room as a human many times before. And no, it didn't occur to me to try and use that panel to get in there, because it's completely unreal. The panel seems to be purely to "look nice" and - given how high humans can jump - I never even felt the inclination to check it!)
Comments
The vent gives the marine an easy time aiming, but while he is in the vent, he cannot be defending a tech point or res tower. Ignore him and kill other stuff, he will have to come out eventually. Its a perfectly valid tactic to crawl in there. Adapt.
The vent gives the marine an easy time aiming, but while he is in the vent, he cannot be defending a tech point or res tower. Ignore him and kill other stuff, he will have to come out eventually. Its a perfectly valid tactic to crawl in there. Adapt.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If there was a ladder leading to that vent, I'd be fine with with the idea. Something to indicate that, yes, indeed, the humans presence in that vent is to be expected. But as it is, it seems like an exploit - same with that mine you mentioned!
Since when are humans ballet dancers or tight-rope walkers or Prince of Persia style acrobats?... in NS2 of course! Answer - since they have jet-packs, but not sooner.
It's pretty much what WhiteWeasel wrote - I'm perfectly fine with humans getting access to vents which are somewhere around waist height - something a player can get into by humping up from the floor OR something that has a clear and visible means of access for a human. That's why I wrote "Not all vents, not all the time" in my first post.
If you're really upset that marines can get into that vent then your best bet is to petition the mapper currently working on veil (Sgt. Barlow) to remove the ramp.
I actually find attacking Skylights easier by using the main path, since marines are in the vents more often than not in that spot. It provides them easy cover to keep skylight and overlook safe, why wouldn't they use it?
Considering that you have to utilize crouch and strafe jumps to get into that vent too, I considered it something that was supposed to be a little hard to access but not impossible.
There are worse tactics that involve vents. A patient Gorge can slowly but steady grow itself a clog ladder all the way to the top vent entrance in Nanogrid and bile bomb everything in there without being exposed to the marines before they have Grenade Launchers or Jetpacks.
Considering that you have to utilize crouch and strafe jumps to get into that vent too, I considered it something that was supposed to be a little hard to access but not impossible.
There are worse tactics that involve vents. A patient Gorge can slowly but steady grow itself a clog ladder all the way to the top vent entrance in Nanogrid and bile bomb everything in there without being exposed to the marines before they have Grenade Launchers or Jetpacks.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
See, here's the thing.
In UT you have double jumps, rocket jumps, people flying across the map launched with various devices. It's a fast paced game where INDEED such panels are not mere scenery, but actual methods to get around using skill. But it's a different game than NS2, isn't it?
When I first played NS2 as a human, I had to mentally adjust to the low jump height, slow movement, limited sprint and (above all else) the incredibly slow movement speed when walking backwards. And I mean those are good things! It seemed like part of the game. Now you tell me that, the same human who has to tiptoe backwards can double jump onto a thin, almost vertical metal panel? Come on now... -_-
edit: what i mean is that the vent should have more angles to decrease the distance a marine can see - and/or have some areas where the vent as alternate passages that would come out on top of the marine.
If so, then here's what I think: THIS S*** IS BANANAS! This kind of thing is what I'd personally consider an exploit. A game that HIDES mechanics or movement paths from new players isn't a good game - it caters exclusively to maniacs. I don't want to spend god-knows how much time trying every possible vent (or path, or jump) on every possible map because someone else found a way to traverse / squeeze in / jump over it.
blah..<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You got outplayed by someone who was making clever use of game mechanics. You now know its possible so you wont make the same mistake again.
Just because you dont want maps to have any slightly tricky movement possibilities doesn't mean that other people don't enjoy them. Your argument actually sounds a bit selfish "I dont want to put in the time to understand the map and how to use the terrain, so no one else should be able to!".
This stuff has been in NS and other games since the dawn of time (CS stacks, UT/Quake/Warsow/Painkiller trick jumps, CoD tac nades and trick jumps) and personally, I love it. You dont have to spend time learning them, you'll learn it fast when you get outplayed like in your example
I actually disagree with you completely on that.
These days, many game developers have been increasingly trying to make every facet of their games' mechanics abundantly obvious to new players in an effort to be more friendly to casual players. What they haven't realized is that this simply accelerates the speed at which their games become stale.
The more depth a game has, the longer it remains interesting. Most players take great joy in learning about a new trick or quirk that they can take advantage of in order to perform some unexpected ninja maneuver. And this is not exclusive to "maniacs" as you call them. All gamers, including casual players (except very lazy ones), enjoy adding a new trick to their arsenal of ways to pwn other players.
There's a certain element of intrigue and mystery that comes with playing a game with a high skill ceiling and many hidden tactics. Increasing your skill and knowledge of a game's mechanics and ultimately defeating players whom you previously had no chance against is a consistently exciting challenge.
QFT.
These days, many game developers have been increasingly trying to make every facet of their games' mechanics abundantly obvious to new players in an effort to be more friendly to casual players. What they haven't realized is that this simply accelerates the speed at which their games become stale.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And what you haven't realized, is that it's not the clear mechanics but lack of depth that cause games to become stale.
Mechanics are NOT the same thing as depth. Good game design should have clear and simple mechanics, and these mechanics should provide as much depth as possible (ideal scenario). You can achieve more depth via more complex mechanics of course, but it should never be a goal to make the mechanics obscure in any way.
In this particular case, the mechanic in question is the physics engine. Yes, one can argue that it provides increased depth, but I argue that the mechanic itself is poorly explained, if at all mentioned. Again, this isn't a game where humans double jump off walls and rocket jump into the air.
To provide an example: in Quake 2/3 bunny-hopping is one such mechanic. No new player would ever figure that one out on their own, yet it has been accepted as a valid feature in pretty much any competitive game. But Quake Live actually corrected this error - it has tutorial maps designed to teach this mechanic to new players. It doesn't tell them HOW to use long-jumps and bunny-hopping in a combat scenario (this leaves the depth of the game to be explored by the player), it merely teaches them that these things exist and how to perform them.
While I do feel it's silly to allow humans to act like ballerinas, if this mechanic becomes clearly defined I'll be fine with it. As it is, it's obscure and feels like an exploit.
Comparing this to bunnyhop is like comparing apples and oranges. Are you really saying its obscure and unclear that you can jump against and on physical entities? This isn't subtle increases in speed as a result of arcing movement in the air and jumping again before friction can be applied. It is simply jumping on top of something which is there in the world to be interacted with.
Yes, I am saying it's obscure to be able to jump onto physics entities when the height of a jump is, say, half the height of a character, and the physics object in question is higher than that.
Wait, what?
Since when? Last time I tried that (I was a noob-Kharaa then, and I had no idea how annoying gorges can be) it just didn't work. Unless there are specific places in vents where this IS possible, in which case this should also be fixed.
in which case this should also be broken.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Look you know about it now, so why don't you just have fun with it instead of trying to break the game?
Yes the first time you get shot in a barrel by a surprise marine in a vent is annoying, but after that you know where to expect them in vents. A lot of the time the marine camping in the vent isn't really achieving much except being a sitting duck anyway.
I guess now is also not a good time to tell you that if you get a team mate to crouch, and then you jump on his head, you can use that to get to higher places too.
As for where you can evolve in vents / on other interesting objects have a read of this
<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=125520" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...howtopic=125520</a>
Are you kidding me? "Break" the game? I didn't know you can break something broken.
The videos from that link make it quite evident we're dealing with an exploit (as the player attempts to change into a gorge and cannot until he repositions himself). Either let players evolve in vents wherever, or not. Leaving it as it is just stinks of a "we're too lazy to fix it, so we'll call it a feature". Plus it really alienates new players.
And out of all the issues with this game you decide to get upset about something as game breaking as this..
Adapt and overcome... marines in vents is not a balance issue.
What would you like?? Colour coded floors with signs saying aliens stand here to evolve, marines not allowed in this are etc?
What you are proposing would only make the game less interesting and more dumbed down. I'm opposed to any kind of dumbing down of the game.
At least you are in the minority on this one.
To be fair, the vent that Shaamaan was referring to in his original post is the vent in Skylights on Veil, which is not accessed by jumping on top of one object and onto on another object. Instead, it's accessed by walking straight into a metal panel that is leaning against the wall and is about 10 degrees away from being vertical. In real life, it is not possible to traverse a surface that steep.
But, as I said in my previous post, I don't mind unrealistic/quirky tricks like this in games.
Also, I found it by myself just fine. Maybe you just need better exploration skills. I saw it and thought, "I can probably run up that, oh look how close I am to the entrance I wonder if I can just jump in and catch the edge, Oh this is awesome!"
And yes...in real life you can traverse it. Not while still holding your gun but a running jump and pulling yourself up is well within feasibility for that height.
Btw, this topic was discussed not long ago in this forum. The conclusion was "no, let the marines use the vents".
You can actually get up there by first jumping on the railing and then onto the top of the slanted wall piece. Its just easier to use the slanted wall piece.
Also, I'd prefer to see marines able to get get in all vents (without needing JPs). It would make aliens think twice about turtling or sniping from vents (think bilebombing gorges in the nanogrid vents).
here's an idea - MAKE ALL OF THE VENTS PITCH BLACK - aliens have special vision, they don't need the light. if a marine goes into the vent aliens will have a big advantage, not to mention if a marine is using a flashlight in there it will give him away.
done.
here's an idea - MAKE ALL OF THE VENTS PITCH BLACK - aliens have special vision, they don't need the light. if a marine goes into the vent aliens will have a big advantage, not to mention if a marine is using a flashlight in there it will give him away.
done.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
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