<!--quoteo(post=2063877:date=Jan 20 2013, 04:03 PM:name=xen32)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (xen32 @ Jan 20 2013, 04:03 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2063877"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Why won't they implement the same pathing algorithm for arcs as they have for cysts to determine where they can shoot? I'm fine if it's shoot thorough walls, but if it takes half an hour to get from attacked place to arcs, it's a bad design. Like, you can place arcs right around the corner and they will be covered, but dammit, take deposit for example... It takes forever and a day to get to central, and then you have to kill supporting crew and only then you can kill arcs? Mission impossible.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The game isn't unbalanced! Every single step leading towards the best units is balanced as long as both teams get their hands on roughly the same amount of res.
The only unbalance starts when one team raises their economy over another, but that's how you win a strategy game. That or through a wellplayed rush.
The only thing making teams loose is bad players. And by bad players I don't mean noobs.
If you have a bad commander, and by that I mean a know it all commander that doesn't listen to his team as well as a medium to low commander that doesn't ask for help or a commander that doesn't comunicate, it is only normal that you loose a game.
At the same time if you have players with little understanding of the game and it's mechanics or no habit of using certain weapons or lifeforms as well as those players with low skill or that do not communicate, it will probably tip the balance towards a loss.
Nonetheless this isn't a game related problem, this is valid for both sides.
What the game needs is a more teaching comunity, as well as more "asking for help" from newbies. Maybe a training map against AI would help...
My point is that if every player is well informed about what to do and what not, then every game would be epic. I've been lucky enough to enter such servers but unfortunately there are always those too shy to ask for help, those with no patience for teaching and those with no tolerance to others knowledge.
If everybody would start trying to learn from their mistakes and use their mic to try solving problems, then people with lack of all of the above would cease to exist, or at least diminish in numbers, and then posts about the game's unbalance would cease too.
<!--quoteo(post=2063918:date=Jan 20 2013, 11:31 PM:name=Luminoth)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Luminoth @ Jan 20 2013, 11:31 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2063918"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The game isn't unbalanced!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, if it comes down to player skill, then you need to present an argument for why Marine players are, in general, worse, since the W/L ratio seems to indicate an imbalance.
AurOn2COOKIES! FREEDOM, AND BISCUITS!AustraliaJoin Date: 2012-01-13Member: 140224Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Forum staff
because the common aiming at a piece of paper with a gun doesn't apply here, what your shooting either runs on walls, flies around pooping poisonous gasses, can teleport wherever it pleases or is SO DAMN BIG YOU WANT TO FLEE AT THE DAMN SIGHT OF IT. the w/l ratio is irrelevent, noobs stack marines without knowing what they are getting into, and then lose miserably, that's when they start learning or start quitting. It also comes down to certain map balance.
The most common "balance issue" that I see lies in player skill, and no amount of teching being capable of accommodating for that.
Most games are decided and predictable within the first 5 minutes. After 5 minutes, the winner is easily determined by: <ol type='1'><li>Who has control of the most resource nodes?</li><li>Who has won the majority of their encounters with the enemy?</li></ol>
The funny thing is, the answer to these two questions are always the same, because the team that wins their encounters tends to control all or most of the resource nodes on the map, and once either team gets rolling with resources, the victories tend to pile up while the other team is forced into defending their one or two hives/comm chairs until exos/jetpacks/onos roll out and crush through defenses.
Most often this is caused by that one bunnyhopping marine who is such a good shot that he's only vulnerable when he's reloading. I've never seen a skulk player who does so well that anywhere he goes, he's more or less invulnerable, because it simply isn't possible by the mechanics of the aliens. A fade, maybe, but that's a long ways off from the start of the match. The problem, as I see it, is that marines are, without any sort of upgrades, with the basic rifle, a much greater threat in the hands of a skilled player. Aliens are only capable of being as good as the marines are bad, since they rely so heavily on ambush, surprise, stealth, and poor aim/panic on the marine's part. A skilled marine can see through all of that and pop them like zits, and I see it happen more often than I'd like.
Be aware of your stats, by the way, when you drop them like that. 60% of matches are won by aliens because in pub games, where you may or may not have a good commander, aliens can easily succeed since they're not so reliant ON their commander. Marines can't do anything, at all, unless the commander is competent. On top of that, you can probably subtract a solid 10% of those victories and account them to skulk rushes within the first 5 minutes.
On a side note, as something that irks me, the devs intended power nodes to be a hard counter to a stalemate, but the fact is that marines can exploit glitches to protect the power node with a robotics factory, block the doors with armories, reinforce said barriers with MACs, build 4+ infantry portals so that the entire team can be killed and respawn within 20 seconds, and marines can effectively hold out like this for up to 30 minutes, and I've seen it happen on numerous occasions. Aliens, on the other hand, can have entire bases destroyed in a heartbeat by ARCs through a wall. What's more is that there's absolutely no means for aliens to defend a base. Whips and shades, like the rest of the alien playstyle, are only effective until the surprise is gone; e.g. one marine walking facefirst into a cloaked whip before telling his team about it.
Frankly, if the devs want to balance the game, they should look at the unofficial combat mode mod, and perhaps develop an *official* combat mode in an effort to better balance the two sides in terms of combat effectiveness. I have NEVER seen aliens win a match on the combat mod, because in direct combat, even hectic combat where it's easy to get the element of surprise, aliens absolutely cannot win against marines. Once exos are brought to bear, it's over.
I didn't mean to write so much, so in summary, what I feel it comes down to is this: <ol type='1'><li>Aliens have a lot of variety and versatility to their playstyle, but lack the capability to win when it comes down to brute force and direct confrontation.</li><li>Marines, with their exos, high player skill ceiling, and ranged weaponry, will always beat the aliens in a direct confrontation, but lack any sort of subtlety or variety to their playstyle.</li><li>Altogether, it's far too easy for an early game lead to gather momentum to the point of a match becoming unwinnable for the opposing team, and it's far too easy for a single, skilled player to achieve this.</li></ol>
<!--quoteo(post=2064001:date=Jan 20 2013, 08:45 PM:name=Kei-chan)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kei-chan @ Jan 20 2013, 08:45 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2064001"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I didn't mean to write so much, so in summary, what I feel it comes down to is this: <ol type='1'><li>Aliens have a lot of variety and versatility to their playstyle, but lack the capability to win when it comes down to brute force and direct confrontation.</li><li>Marines, with their exos, high player skill ceiling, and ranged weaponry, will always beat the aliens in a direct confrontation, but lack any sort of subtlety or variety to their playstyle.</li><li>Altogether, it's far too easy for an early game lead to gather momentum to the point of a match becoming unwinnable for the opposing team, and it's far too easy for a single, skilled player to achieve this.</li></ol><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't know how long you've been playing, but usually when the tide starts to go one way, you have to get really sneaky. I've seen games turn around, but you need a little luck and a lot of teamwork. It's really unusual in pubs. A ninja phase gate or jetpack flamethrower/shotgun rush can pop a hive before the buffed aliens can react. Likewise, it only takes a few skulks to take down a phasegate in a base. If the comm beacons, they will be there until they can build another phase gate, leaving the aliens the ability to attack somewhere else completely undefended for a short period of time.
Fades have an huge skill ceiling as well as lerks.
I feel there are a few key balance issues in my opinion. In no particular order...
First the fact aliens can build w/o there being aliens present. Having to stop and go gorge to drop a rt was not only a time delay for attacking marines it was also a delay in pres making fades and lerks come out a bit later in game giving marines a chance to gain tech.
Second would be the marines lack of ability to hit what they shoot at. Whether it be from poor aiming or hitreg the problem is there,
Third would be lack of aggression by marines early game. Since the aliens don't have to build they are free to attack. If you put pressure on the hive or harvesters you force at least a few to turn around and deal with your presence.
<!--quoteo(post=2063907:date=Jan 20 2013, 05:06 PM:name=Frustration)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Frustration @ Jan 20 2013, 05:06 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2063907"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Blink should he harder to get.I think I've never seen people without it.
Once a Fade has Blink, no party of 2 can survive.And those Fades are from those a-holes who get 12 kills and 1 death during the metagame.Really f-ing hate people, who only play one game and not get tired of it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Blink costs 30 res. That's only 10 less than a hive.
<!--quoteo(post=2064005:date=Jan 20 2013, 08:54 PM:name=sharnrock)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (sharnrock @ Jan 20 2013, 08:54 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2064005"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't know how long you've been playing, but usually when the tide starts to go one way, you have to get really sneaky. I've seen games turn around, but you need a little luck and a lot of teamwork. It's really unusual in pubs. A ninja phase gate or jetpack flamethrower/shotgun rush can pop a hive before the buffed aliens can react. Likewise, it only takes a few skulks to take down a phasegate in a base. If the comm beacons, they will be there until they can build another phase gate, leaving the aliens the ability to attack somewhere else completely undefended for a short period of time.
Fades have an huge skill ceiling as well as lerks.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I understand that, but as you said, it's really unusual to see in pubs. I never said that fades don't have a high skill ceiling, and personally, I think lerks are too fragile without their upgrades (I don't even bother with lerk until we get spores) or support of some kind (a nest of crags with a shift, a gorge waiting a room away, etc.) to have that high of a skill ceiling. The problem though, is that fades are too expensive to be considered. A marine spawns with a rifle. An alien has to spend 40 res to become a fade, and most alien players require the additional 30 res investment into blink to be any good with it. That's like saying, "Yeah, but the onos is so powerful!" and that's how most players consider the fade, as being just too expensive compared to an onos, which can break a stalemate and turn the tide.
The problem isn't the lategame, when resources are plentiful, the problem is the earlygame, where two or three skilled marines can ensure a marine victory wholesale by just holding half the map and turtling until they can bring exos and ARCs or a whole team of jetpacking shotgunners to bear. Despite my alien leanings, and while I love the RTS metagame and strategy involved, I feel that economic domination shouldn't be such a tremendous factor in the outcome of a game, because it's largely outside any single player's control, even the commander, and it often leads to situations that feel hopeless and a bit depressing, not fun. Nobody likes to concede 10 minutes in because the other team has locked down the entire map and all they can do is wait for the inevitable onos/exo brigade.
<!--quoteo(post=2063223:date=Jan 19 2013, 12:31 PM:name=Tweadle)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tweadle @ Jan 19 2013, 12:31 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2063223"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Hopefully people will start to see the cyst changes as an opportunity for more worthwhile offensive marine play in the early game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes and that has helped the marines in some matches I have played.
<!--quoteo(post=2063822:date=Jan 20 2013, 08:22 PM:name=Axehilt)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Axehilt @ Jan 20 2013, 08:22 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2063822"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><b>Bertror's</b> post made no sense at all. Marine commanders have plenty of deserved authority. It depends on the comm of course, but due to the major factors we're pointing out here, the marine team is more reliant on their com (and vice-versa) than aliens. Also, calling marine base defenses useless because they can be taken down from afar when basic marines have an LMG is a bit odd -- including <i>Mines </i>in the list of "useless" things is hilarious.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
As for point #1, look what we have in this very same thread: <!--quoteo(post=2063918:date=Jan 20 2013, 11:31 PM:name=Luminoth)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Luminoth @ Jan 20 2013, 11:31 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2063918"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If you have a bad commander, and by that I mean a know it all commander that doesn't listen to his team as well as a medium to low commander that doesn't ask for help or a commander that doesn't comunicate, it is only normal that you loose a game.
At the same time if you have players with little understanding of the game and it's mechanics or no habit of using certain weapons or lifeforms as well as those players with low skill or that do not communicate, it will probably tip the balance towards a loss.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Obviously, the commander should communicate with his team, if a marine says scan plz they have camo the comm should better scan but that's not what we are talking about. It is the comm's job to tell his marines where to go and what to do, not the other way around. The comm knows it all because he sees the map from a top down view, well at least he knows more about the global situation than the boots on the ground. So many players dont get this and it kills the marine efficiency. I have seen 1 hive lockdown games get lost thanks to this. Edit: To be clear, I agree that communication is a crucial skill for a commander, however the current interface + marine hud has some liabilities. For example, I am missing the "Move to your waypoint" line the most. Sometimes as a marine I did not even notice I was ordered to do something if no voice or chat was involved.
As for mines, they certainly are effective at hindering skulks but they are not cost effective at all. Marines are supposed to have the ranged advantage. In terms of ranged base defenses, the aliens have all the advantages: Grenade resistant blockades, Grenade reflecting buildings, no blind spots, even upgradeable to be anti exo.
I am not writing this because i want to see more marine turtles. I am writing this because this enables the aliens to go kamikaze baserush/RT-harrass all the time in pubs. They dont have to worry about the marines locking down a key area as they had in ns1, simply because they cant. Each point of res the marines spend in defense is wasted.
I didn't read it all, but I have to agree with the OP: Kharaa commanding is too self-reliant. Com builds the base, lifeforms attack/defend/hang on ceilings and do nothing.
In NS1, we didn't have the problem of 8 skulks attacking and 1 gorge building everything. Everyone would drop at least 1 extractor and do what she/he wanted after that.
In NS2, we have an alien com, which can build everything (except Clogs and Hydras). Which isn't a BAD change, but a change which lead to a huge nerf for aliens.
So, <b>why not make the gorge build cysts?</b> Should cost no PRES but TRES and give the alien team a much bigger buff in early game. At least 1 player must go Gorge to expand the base, Skulks can harrass but must also defend the belly sliding builders. Aliens can't gain map control in 5 minutes and alien expansion is better to conquer (hunting gorges). I'd like to see that change!
I had posted something else before, but if its only cyst placement, gorges could work. I'm only afraid that it will probably make khammanding alot more dull as well due to a lack of things to do early game.
Oh and gorges being able to access tres seems wrong as well. I don't see anything wrong with using pres instead, marines don't need to spend tres/pres building a power node either. Would it even be so bad if cyst placement through gorges is free? (assuming there is some anti-spam stuff in play) Aliens just need other res sinks.
Message given to new marine players is counter to what gameplay requires. Past preconceptions (e.g. alien movies) and the atmosphere suggest that marines should be cautious, moving slowly and locking down each area before moving forward. But gameplay requires aggressive play.
Thus, either the message needs to be changed, or gameplay needs to be changed.
<u><b>Possible way to change the message</b></u> Impart a sense of urgency. Yes, it is dangerous. Yes, marines do need to stick together. But it's even more important to stop the spread of infestation!
For instance, having periodic voice messages from the comm (by which I mean the game comm, not the player, the one who says things like "Build this") saying things like: "Strike teams move out! We need to contain this infestation before it spreads across the station!" "Find and destroy the alien hive! We need to plug the infestation at its source before it's too late!"
This would let new players know that things are urgent and they can't waste any time.
<u><b>Possible way to change the gameplay</b></u> Not my preferred option, but one way to keep gameplay in line with message is to actually allow marines to properly lock down areas. This should be time costly, but cost little to no res (res cost will come from losing map control due to time spent locking down areas). The `lock-down' should be strong enough that marines will be able to make a strong push without having to worry about their base being harassed - and strong enough to make up for the res disadvantage resulting from the loss of map control.
Well where do I start? First off you need to put NS2 into perspective with its predecessor NS1. The addition of the alien commander has changed the game mechanics pretty drastically. This change in retrospect is still capable of being balanced. The argument about aliens have free roam early game is true to a point.
First thing we need to look at is the cost of a extractor alien vs marine; marine costs 10 resources were as aliens cost any where from 13-15 per extractor (Due to Cysts). So the resources gained through out the game can easily be managed VIA adjusting the auto growth time of aliens extractor.
Second the aliens can just charge the marines as they are building. This is true but it is not like the marines can't just stop building and shot the aliens. In a match-up 2 aliens vs 2 marines with the hit reg and all the computer gods in the right place the marines should always win. Now why is this, because it is actually 3 marines (2 marines + commander). Marines get healed from the hand of god. So for aliens to be in the same boat you would need to equate this to a gorge following the 2 marines healing them.
DISPARITIES (Partial Features That Were Taken From NS1 but forgot about the counter balance)
Cloaking- NS1 counter to Alien cloaking was motion tracking. Now it is requiring the commander to drop 3 resources every 5 seconds (Scan) in every room that has marines in it.
Ability for aliens to respond to a hive being attacked- NS1 had chamber(MT)/Hive teleport to the hive under attack. NS2 removed the ability to ninja gate hive's due to the lack of, that's right no way for aliens to react to the hive being attacked in time.
So now we have these 5 tech points. Marines have 2 aliens have 3 who wins? Yes you guessed it aliens. Why, cause aliens sacrificing their 3rd hive for marines 2nd tech point is huge problem due to marines losing their higher tier JP/Exo.
Counter to Onos- NS1 that is right we called it a HMG(Heavy Machine Gun) which could be used by both the heavy armor and the Jetpackers. What do Jetpackers have to counter Onos now? NS2 gives us Exo which has zero mobility and is pretty much locked to base defense against a mobile onos.
I don't even want to touch all the abilities/moves that impair marine vision in NS2. While marines are stale and have nothing that impairs a melee alien from whacking me at close range.
Probably alot more but I'm tired and have addressed alot of these issues in previous postings that have been over shadowed by the terrible game performance issues.
<!--quoteo(post=2063164:date=Jan 19 2013, 08:59 AM:name=|strofix|)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (|strofix| @ Jan 19 2013, 08:59 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2063164"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro--><!--sizeo:4--><span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->TL;DR Post your detailed theory regarding the core balance issue that is causing aliens to win more often than marines. Don't flame or reference other people's theories. <!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--coloro:#FF00FF--><span style="color:#FF00FF"><!--/coloro--><!--sizeo:5--><span style="font-size:18pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->TL;DR <!--sizeo:5--><span style="font-size:18pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->Bad marines on pubs<!--sizeo:5--><span style="font-size:18pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->. Bad commander or no commander <!--sizeo:5--><span style="font-size:18pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->on marine side <!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->for <!--sizeo:5--><span style="font-size:18pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->over a minute<!--sizeo:5--><span style="font-size:18pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->.<!--sizeo:5--><span style="font-size:18pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--> 70<!--sizeo:5--><span style="font-size:18pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->% (scientifically evidenced percentage, o<!--sizeo:5--><span style="font-size:18pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->bviously) <!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->on pubs making robo factory before jetpacks are out<!--sizeo:5--><span style="font-size:18pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->, and robo factories without arc usage<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->. <!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->Aliens being a lot <!--sizeo:5--><span style="font-size:18pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->easier to aim with when someone gets ambus<!--sizeo:5--><span style="font-size:18pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->hed. Nobody <!--sizeo:5--><span style="font-size:18pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->being actually able to aim well enough to kill lerks and fades.<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
<!--sizeo:5--><span style="font-size:18pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->Also <!--sizeo:7--><span style="font-size:36pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->SENTRIES IN EVERY ROOM.<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--> <!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
<!--quoteo(post=2063237:date=Jan 19 2013, 01:52 PM:name=TimMc)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TimMc @ Jan 19 2013, 01:52 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2063237"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Keeping the alien commander, and forcing gorges to build his stuff, would be terribly boring for the gorges. No real decision making, just hold right click.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hmm, I dont agree.
I played a few rounds last night gorge only and I found that commanders react favorably towards gorges, I was calling the shots oh buildings in certain places, protecting them with clogs and hydras, and moving forward pushing with spit clogs adn hydras, made it from sub to skylights, got a forward base built there, all with the help of the commander.
The commander should be able to select hive type, do upgrades, cyst, etc, but give gorges something to do, drop RTs, drop crags, etc.
They will change the flow of the game immensly. As it is right now we never see a crag outside of the hive in the mid game because commanders are saving resources for eggs and upgrades. Gorges can go 30-50 res mid game because they have nothing to drop.
Ive finished games as gorge with 100 res... I know that is wrong, that res shouldve went to use, another player wouldve spent it right away, I had nothing to do with it and I did not feel like playing another life form.
All I am asking is give gorges structures to build. a gorge recapping nodes and building bases seems like an extremely useful role for it.
<!--quoteo(post=2063890:date=Jan 20 2013, 01:32 PM:name=catbarf)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (catbarf @ Jan 20 2013, 01:32 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2063890"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I keep seeing people say that Marines need to be more aggressive. Well, I can't speak for anyone else, but when as an alien I can see enemies through walls and then pounce on them from one of many convenient hiding places, it's a lot easier to be aggressive than when I'm playing as a Marine, slowed down by needing to axe cysts to death, hoping that a Skulk doesn't drop from the ceiling or out of a vent somewhere and kill me before I can respond.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I like to attack cysts as well, but sometimes you just gotta realize that there are bigger fish to kill. Most people get hung up on cysts, clogs, and whips when you can easily laugh and run right past them in most cases. After that, it's time to target extractors or enemy upgrades.
<!--quoteo(post=2064132:date=Jan 21 2013, 05:24 AM:name=sinkingmist)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (sinkingmist @ Jan 21 2013, 05:24 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2064132"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><u><b>Possible way to change the message</b></u> Impart a sense of urgency. Yes, it is dangerous. Yes, marines do need to stick together. But it's even more important to stop the spread of infestation!
For instance, having periodic voice messages from the comm (by which I mean the game comm, not the player, the one who says things like "Build this") saying things like: "Strike teams move out! We need to contain this infestation before it spreads across the station!" "Find and destroy the alien hive! We need to plug the infestation at its source before it's too late!"
This would let new players know that things are urgent and they can't waste any time.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I really, really like this idea.
Maybe not exactly in this form, but having more atmosphere to inform players, new and old alike, as to what they should generally be up to, is a fantastic idea. Something to take a little pressure off the already-overloaded marine comm, and to foster a better aesthetic feel in general.
I agree with the notion that the addition of the Khamm freed up a lot of Kharaa players for being pure offense. Maybe one solution could be to redistribute tasks back to the actual Kharaa players? Meaning: Gorges being able to build structures too. Maybe even lower starting t.res for the Kharaa team, so the Khamm has to depend on at least 1 Player going Gorge to spent his p.res on an early extractor/upgrade chamber/whatever to compensate for the lower starting t.res.
In addition to that the third Hive needs to be the ultimate game ender once again. Right now having a third Hive usually means that Kharaa can compete with an Marine team that has reached JP/Exo tech. So Marine teams usually don't place that much importance on keeping Kharaa at 2 Hives until they get overrun by an endless number of Onos eggs. But that's only viable because the Kharaa team has so too much map control/res income to sustain those Onos eggs. A third Hive should give the Kharaa team the option to compete with the Marines even if they lost the RT game. That way the Khamm can either go for a quick third Hive or play the "map control" game and drown Marines with an massive income of p.res/higher lifeforms.
But right now playing the Khamm feels way too cookiecutter, you barely get punished for expanding too fast/too far, as Marines often have a really hard time pushing back such rapid and far stretching expansion.
On the Marine side i still believe that "area waypoints" could really help with making Marines more aggressive without forcing the Commander to babysit them into offensive play by yelling trough voice. New Marines often don't know what to do or where to go unless the Commander constantly keeps repeating what they should do. Adding "mission type area waypoints" could help with that. That way new Marine players just need to take a look at the map and see different objectives they could go for. Instead of only having the same generic waypoint that's usually outdated and doesn't tell the Marine much besides "go there! Why? Who the hell knows!".
What I suggested some time ago was to get rid of Khamm (in principle). Gorges become the Khamms. Any gorge has access to the tres pool, and can drop chambers etc. When needed they can pop into a hive to do tasks. This would make gorges actually fun to play, and it would up the complexity of aliens without major changes.
As alien commander I can get away with saying almost nothing to my team. Coordination/arguing/discussing/planning/micromanaging all of these things can happen as an alien, but don't need to. I just cyst to whereever I want and my buildings build themselves. Meanwhile my teammates with lack of any other objective will attack and defend. If I need the team to reinforce an area I just drop a shift and spawn eggs there. It's actually a really nice and fun and easy experience.
As the marine commander, I am reliant on my marines to expand and defend. I typically feel I have to micromanage every single marine. If I want a res node, I have to get some but not all marines to that room, they have to build the power and not die, then they have to build the res node and not die. In fact I probably have two teams of marines doing this at the same time. When something goes wrong, I feel obligated to point it out and hope the appropriate number of marines responds and goes to the correct spot, or spend even more time telling which marines to go where. In a public game this is kind of difficult, and a huge pain. Of course if I was playing with a team of marines that know what to do, this whole problem becomes a non-issue.
Summary: Alien commander is much more suited for public play.
the skill gap between good marines and bad marines is way higher than the skill gap between good aliens and bad aliens (mainly early skulk vs early marine which is when games are decided)
it's tough to balance this game if marines are killing skulks at high levels of play but skulks are killing marines everywhere else.
the developers have to pick one set of rules, and it's hard if marines are winning tournaments, but aliens are winning pubs
<!--quoteo(post=2064563:date=Jan 21 2013, 06:27 PM:name=biz)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (biz @ Jan 21 2013, 06:27 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2064563"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->the skill gap between good marines and bad marines is way higher than the skill gap between good aliens and bad aliens (mainly early skulk vs early marine which is when games are decided)
it's tough to balance this game if marines are killing skulks at high levels of play but skulks are killing marines everywhere else.
the developers have to pick one set of rules, and it's hard if marines are winning tournaments, but aliens are winning pubs<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No they are not, Aliens dominate at all levels of play. Only time Marines win in a massive mis-match in comp teams, much like how Marines only win due to stacked teams in Pubs.
<!--quoteo(post=2064059:date=Jan 21 2013, 12:50 AM:name=bERt0r)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (bERt0r @ Jan 21 2013, 12:50 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2064059"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->As for point #1, look what we have in this very same thread:
Obviously, the commander should communicate with his team, if a marine says scan plz they have camo the comm should better scan but that's not what we are talking about. It is the comm's job to tell his marines where to go and what to do, not the other way around. The comm knows it all because he sees the map from a top down view, well at least he knows more about the global situation than the boots on the ground. So many players dont get this and it kills the marine efficiency. I have seen 1 hive lockdown games get lost thanks to this. Edit: To be clear, I agree that communication is a crucial skill for a commander, however the current interface + marine hud has some liabilities. For example, I am missing the "Move to your waypoint" line the most. Sometimes as a marine I did not even notice I was ordered to do something if no voice or chat was involved.
As for mines, they certainly are effective at hindering skulks but they are not cost effective at all. Marines are supposed to have the ranged advantage. In terms of ranged base defenses, the aliens have all the advantages: Grenade resistant blockades, Grenade reflecting buildings, no blind spots, even upgradeable to be anti exo.
I am not writing this because i want to see more marine turtles. I am writing this because this enables the aliens to go kamikaze baserush/RT-harrass all the time in pubs. They dont have to worry about the marines locking down a key area as they had in ns1, simply because they cant. Each point of res the marines spend in defense is wasted.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
1. That's all true, and completely backs my post, and contradicts your earlier post. Here you point out some of the reasons the marine commander deserves to be treated as the team's authority, whereas before you said the commander had little authority. (Although to be fair, the commander doesn't really have any more information than a "boot on the ground" who understands what the Map button does.)
As for mines, I'm not really sure how you could think they aren't cost effective. I guess maybe if you're measuring the wrong metric (Kills/Rez, instead of Increased Win Rate/Rez.) I'm confident that a graph of Win Rate vs. Team Mines Placed In First 10 Mins would paint an extremely clear picture of just how potent mines are. They're borderline overpowered in how much map control they give the early marine team.
While it's true GLs are trash right now and need an improvement, that doesn't change the fact that turrets aren't really any worse than most shooting buildings in NS2 (for good reason.) The main difference is the lack of constant alien resource expenditure compared with Med/Ammo/Shield spam. This results in endgame alien commanding revolving around many more buildings than marines.
<!--quoteo(post=2063981:date=Jan 21 2013, 12:52 AM:name=catbarf)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (catbarf @ Jan 21 2013, 12:52 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2063981"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Well, if it comes down to player skill, then you need to present an argument for why Marine players are, in general, worse, since the W/L ratio seems to indicate an imbalance.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's simple, loosing because of players seems to be independant of the team your in, but loosing because of the commander seems to be more pronounced for marines because a marine commander has to have a deeper understanding of the game mechanics than the khammander.
And this mainly because aliens can win if their commander just focusses on expanding and gaining ressources (when they reach 75 res you know what comes next, doesn't matter if some upgrades were missing along the way), while the marine commander has to know what to research and when,k so that marines can finally gain an edge. If the commander fails to do this properly then the team can only rely on pure skill, which is difficult to maintain for a long period.
Oh and by the way I wanted to mention that alot of commanders miss the important researchs and do the wrong choices, which might account for the beforementionned as well. The most notable example beeing to not research mines and spamming the map with turrets. Seriously who doesn't get this? Wasting res on turrets when marines could be using their own to plant very effective mines, while leaving res for the commander to research more stuff. But then again this is a discussion for another topic.
<!--quoteo(post=2064059:date=Jan 21 2013, 05:50 AM:name=bERt0r)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (bERt0r @ Jan 21 2013, 05:50 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2064059"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Obviously, the commander should communicate with his team, if a marine says scan plz they have camo the comm should better scan but that's not what we are talking about. It is the comm's job to tell his marines where to go and what to do, not the other way around. The comm knows it all because he sees the map from a top down view, well at least he knows more about the global situation than the boots on the ground. So many players dont get this and it kills the marine efficiency. I have seen 1 hive lockdown games get lost thanks to this. Edit: To be clear, I agree that communication is a crucial skill for a commander, however the current interface + marine hud has some liabilities. For example, I am missing the "Move to your waypoint" line the most. Sometimes as a marine I did not even notice I was ordered to do something if no voice or chat was involved.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I meant that both ways, the commander should listen to the marines, because at least during the early game, when he focusses on base build up, the the boots might know more about what's going on on the map and sometimes I had great khommanders who knew how to support their team while probably not following his usual build up.
That's the synergy you need, if you think that the commander is allknowing and allpowerfull then your part of the problem and not part of the solution.
I also meant the commander should talk to the marines, use his mic or buy one if he has none, because that's how a commander should be played. That goes for both teams. I've played several games where marine commander just play solo not "commanding" and as a marine I like the militaristic feel of following orders. That gives the team confidence in it's commander and makes you know exactly where you should be, when and what you should be doing. I hate it to be clueless about what to do next and usually that makes me get awoll.
On the plus side if you have a substantial communication between team and commander then you counter the psychological loosing effect that makes people leave the game when it looks like your loosing. If the commander keeps encouraging their team and giving reasons why something isn't being researched or why there was no scan or other, you start playing as the game was meant to be played and if both teams do that, then you'll start playing games that extend over the hour and win or loss won't matter anymore because those were simply very good games.
<!--quoteo(post=2064132:date=Jan 21 2013, 10:24 AM:name=sinkingmist)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (sinkingmist @ Jan 21 2013, 10:24 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2064132"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><u><b>Possible way to change the gameplay</b></u> Not my preferred option, but one way to keep gameplay in line with message is to actually allow marines to properly lock down areas. This should be time costly, but cost little to no res (res cost will come from losing map control due to time spent locking down areas). The `lock-down' should be strong enough that marines will be able to make a strong push without having to worry about their base being harassed - and strong enough to make up for the res disadvantage resulting from the loss of map control.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is allready being though of whith the ability of welding doors, just don't know when they'll implement it.
I've read here several times, that gorges should build more/everything. In NS1 (for people who didn't knew it) gorges build everything. So now, we have an alien com, and I don't think UWE wants to change that. There is also already a mod for that NS1 gameplay.
So we have to find something, which slows down early alien expansions, which makes the alien com more depending on its team, but which still makes the com not useless/boring to play (gorges build everything or most buildings).
My suggestions are
- let gorges build cysts (I wrote that here already, still like it the best, since I love gorges and played gorge in NS1 all the time) - let gorges build Restowers OR crags/shifts/shades/whips (I think this makes alien com a little more boring) - let alien com build Cysts only in room where teammates are present or in line of sight of teammates
that's all I can think of right now. I still like the cyst building gorge the most.
Comments
This is 100% bad map design.
The only unbalance starts when one team raises their economy over another, but that's how you win a strategy game. That or through a wellplayed rush.
The only thing making teams loose is bad players. And by bad players I don't mean noobs.
If you have a bad commander, and by that I mean a know it all commander that doesn't listen to his team as well as a medium to low commander that doesn't ask for help or a commander that doesn't comunicate, it is only normal that you loose a game.
At the same time if you have players with little understanding of the game and it's mechanics or no habit of using certain weapons or lifeforms as well as those players with low skill or that do not communicate, it will probably tip the balance towards a loss.
Nonetheless this isn't a game related problem, this is valid for both sides.
What the game needs is a more teaching comunity, as well as more "asking for help" from newbies. Maybe a training map against AI would help...
My point is that if every player is well informed about what to do and what not, then every game would be epic. I've been lucky enough to enter such servers but unfortunately there are always those too shy to ask for help, those with no patience for teaching and those with no tolerance to others knowledge.
If everybody would start trying to learn from their mistakes and use their mic to try solving problems, then people with lack of all of the above would cease to exist, or at least diminish in numbers, and then posts about the game's unbalance would cease too.
Have some nice games out there XD
Well, if it comes down to player skill, then you need to present an argument for why Marine players are, in general, worse, since the W/L ratio seems to indicate an imbalance.
It also comes down to certain map balance.
Most games are decided and predictable within the first 5 minutes. After 5 minutes, the winner is easily determined by:
<ol type='1'><li>Who has control of the most resource nodes?</li><li>Who has won the majority of their encounters with the enemy?</li></ol>
The funny thing is, the answer to these two questions are always the same, because the team that wins their encounters tends to control all or most of the resource nodes on the map, and once either team gets rolling with resources, the victories tend to pile up while the other team is forced into defending their one or two hives/comm chairs until exos/jetpacks/onos roll out and crush through defenses.
Most often this is caused by that one bunnyhopping marine who is such a good shot that he's only vulnerable when he's reloading. I've never seen a skulk player who does so well that anywhere he goes, he's more or less invulnerable, because it simply isn't possible by the mechanics of the aliens. A fade, maybe, but that's a long ways off from the start of the match. The problem, as I see it, is that marines are, without any sort of upgrades, with the basic rifle, a much greater threat in the hands of a skilled player. Aliens are only capable of being as good as the marines are bad, since they rely so heavily on ambush, surprise, stealth, and poor aim/panic on the marine's part. A skilled marine can see through all of that and pop them like zits, and I see it happen more often than I'd like.
Be aware of your stats, by the way, when you drop them like that. 60% of matches are won by aliens because in pub games, where you may or may not have a good commander, aliens can easily succeed since they're not so reliant ON their commander. Marines can't do anything, at all, unless the commander is competent. On top of that, you can probably subtract a solid 10% of those victories and account them to skulk rushes within the first 5 minutes.
On a side note, as something that irks me, the devs intended power nodes to be a hard counter to a stalemate, but the fact is that marines can exploit glitches to protect the power node with a robotics factory, block the doors with armories, reinforce said barriers with MACs, build 4+ infantry portals so that the entire team can be killed and respawn within 20 seconds, and marines can effectively hold out like this for up to 30 minutes, and I've seen it happen on numerous occasions. Aliens, on the other hand, can have entire bases destroyed in a heartbeat by ARCs through a wall. What's more is that there's absolutely no means for aliens to defend a base. Whips and shades, like the rest of the alien playstyle, are only effective until the surprise is gone; e.g. one marine walking facefirst into a cloaked whip before telling his team about it.
Frankly, if the devs want to balance the game, they should look at the unofficial combat mode mod, and perhaps develop an *official* combat mode in an effort to better balance the two sides in terms of combat effectiveness. I have NEVER seen aliens win a match on the combat mod, because in direct combat, even hectic combat where it's easy to get the element of surprise, aliens absolutely cannot win against marines. Once exos are brought to bear, it's over.
I didn't mean to write so much, so in summary, what I feel it comes down to is this:
<ol type='1'><li>Aliens have a lot of variety and versatility to their playstyle, but lack the capability to win when it comes down to brute force and direct confrontation.</li><li>Marines, with their exos, high player skill ceiling, and ranged weaponry, will always beat the aliens in a direct confrontation, but lack any sort of subtlety or variety to their playstyle.</li><li>Altogether, it's far too easy for an early game lead to gather momentum to the point of a match becoming unwinnable for the opposing team, and it's far too easy for a single, skilled player to achieve this.</li></ol>
<ol type='1'><li>Aliens have a lot of variety and versatility to their playstyle, but lack the capability to win when it comes down to brute force and direct confrontation.</li><li>Marines, with their exos, high player skill ceiling, and ranged weaponry, will always beat the aliens in a direct confrontation, but lack any sort of subtlety or variety to their playstyle.</li><li>Altogether, it's far too easy for an early game lead to gather momentum to the point of a match becoming unwinnable for the opposing team, and it's far too easy for a single, skilled player to achieve this.</li></ol><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't know how long you've been playing, but usually when the tide starts to go one way, you have to get really sneaky. I've seen games turn around, but you need a little luck and a lot of teamwork. It's really unusual in pubs. A ninja phase gate or jetpack flamethrower/shotgun rush can pop a hive before the buffed aliens can react. Likewise, it only takes a few skulks to take down a phasegate in a base. If the comm beacons, they will be there until they can build another phase gate, leaving the aliens the ability to attack somewhere else completely undefended for a short period of time.
Fades have an huge skill ceiling as well as lerks.
First the fact aliens can build w/o there being aliens present. Having to stop and go gorge to drop a rt was not only a time delay for attacking marines it was also a delay in pres making fades and lerks come out a bit later in game giving marines a chance to gain tech.
Second would be the marines lack of ability to hit what they shoot at. Whether it be from poor aiming or hitreg the problem is there,
Third would be lack of aggression by marines early game. Since the aliens don't have to build they are free to attack. If you put pressure on the hive or harvesters you force at least a few to turn around and deal with your presence.
Fourth is map balance in general.
Once a Fade has Blink, no party of 2 can survive.And those Fades are from those a-holes who get 12 kills and 1 death during the metagame.Really f-ing hate people, who only play one game and not get tired of it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Blink costs 30 res. That's only 10 less than a hive.
Fades have an huge skill ceiling as well as lerks.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I understand that, but as you said, it's really unusual to see in pubs. I never said that fades don't have a high skill ceiling, and personally, I think lerks are too fragile without their upgrades (I don't even bother with lerk until we get spores) or support of some kind (a nest of crags with a shift, a gorge waiting a room away, etc.) to have that high of a skill ceiling. The problem though, is that fades are too expensive to be considered. A marine spawns with a rifle. An alien has to spend 40 res to become a fade, and most alien players require the additional 30 res investment into blink to be any good with it. That's like saying, "Yeah, but the onos is so powerful!" and that's how most players consider the fade, as being just too expensive compared to an onos, which can break a stalemate and turn the tide.
The problem isn't the lategame, when resources are plentiful, the problem is the earlygame, where two or three skilled marines can ensure a marine victory wholesale by just holding half the map and turtling until they can bring exos and ARCs or a whole team of jetpacking shotgunners to bear. Despite my alien leanings, and while I love the RTS metagame and strategy involved, I feel that economic domination shouldn't be such a tremendous factor in the outcome of a game, because it's largely outside any single player's control, even the commander, and it often leads to situations that feel hopeless and a bit depressing, not fun. Nobody likes to concede 10 minutes in because the other team has locked down the entire map and all they can do is wait for the inevitable onos/exo brigade.
Yes and that has helped the marines in some matches I have played.
As for point #1, look what we have in this very same thread:
<!--quoteo(post=2063918:date=Jan 20 2013, 11:31 PM:name=Luminoth)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Luminoth @ Jan 20 2013, 11:31 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2063918"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If you have a bad commander, and by that I mean a know it all commander that doesn't listen to his team as well as a medium to low commander that doesn't ask for help or a commander that doesn't comunicate, it is only normal that you loose a game.
At the same time if you have players with little understanding of the game and it's mechanics or no habit of using certain weapons or lifeforms as well as those players with low skill or that do not communicate, it will probably tip the balance towards a loss.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Obviously, the commander should communicate with his team, if a marine says scan plz they have camo the comm should better scan but that's not what we are talking about. It is the comm's job to tell his marines where to go and what to do, not the other way around. The comm knows it all because he sees the map from a top down view, well at least he knows more about the global situation than the boots on the ground. So many players dont get this and it kills the marine efficiency. I have seen 1 hive lockdown games get lost thanks to this.
Edit: To be clear, I agree that communication is a crucial skill for a commander, however the current interface + marine hud has some liabilities. For example, I am missing the "Move to your waypoint" line the most. Sometimes as a marine I did not even notice I was ordered to do something if no voice or chat was involved.
As for mines, they certainly are effective at hindering skulks but they are not cost effective at all.
Marines are supposed to have the ranged advantage. In terms of ranged base defenses, the aliens have all the advantages: Grenade resistant blockades, Grenade reflecting buildings, no blind spots, even upgradeable to be anti exo.
I am not writing this because i want to see more marine turtles. I am writing this because this enables the aliens to go kamikaze baserush/RT-harrass all the time in pubs. They dont have to worry about the marines locking down a key area as they had in ns1, simply because they cant. Each point of res the marines spend in defense is wasted.
Same.
In NS1, we didn't have the problem of 8 skulks attacking and 1 gorge building everything. Everyone would drop at least 1 extractor and do what she/he wanted after that.
In NS2, we have an alien com, which can build everything (except Clogs and Hydras). Which isn't a BAD change, but a change which lead to a huge nerf for aliens.
So, <b>why not make the gorge build cysts?</b> Should cost no PRES but TRES and give the alien team a much bigger buff in early game. At least 1 player must go Gorge to expand the base, Skulks can harrass but must also defend the belly sliding builders. Aliens can't gain map control in 5 minutes and alien expansion is better to conquer (hunting gorges). I'd like to see that change!
Oh and gorges being able to access tres seems wrong as well. I don't see anything wrong with using pres instead, marines don't need to spend tres/pres building a power node either. Would it even be so bad if cyst placement through gorges is free? (assuming there is some anti-spam stuff in play) Aliens just need other res sinks.
Past preconceptions (e.g. alien movies) and the atmosphere suggest that marines should be cautious, moving slowly and locking down each area before moving forward.
But gameplay requires aggressive play.
Thus, either the message needs to be changed, or gameplay needs to be changed.
<u><b>Possible way to change the message</b></u>
Impart a sense of urgency.
Yes, it is dangerous. Yes, marines do need to stick together. But it's even more important to stop the spread of infestation!
For instance, having periodic voice messages from the comm (by which I mean the game comm, not the player, the one who says things like "Build this") saying things like:
"Strike teams move out! We need to contain this infestation before it spreads across the station!"
"Find and destroy the alien hive! We need to plug the infestation at its source before it's too late!"
This would let new players know that things are urgent and they can't waste any time.
<u><b>Possible way to change the gameplay</b></u>
Not my preferred option, but one way to keep gameplay in line with message is to actually allow marines to properly lock down areas.
This should be time costly, but cost little to no res (res cost will come from losing map control due to time spent locking down areas).
The `lock-down' should be strong enough that marines will be able to make a strong push without having to worry about their base being harassed - and strong enough to make up for the res disadvantage resulting from the loss of map control.
First thing we need to look at is the cost of a extractor alien vs marine; marine costs 10 resources were as aliens cost any where from 13-15 per extractor (Due to Cysts). So the resources gained through out the game can easily be managed VIA adjusting the auto growth time of aliens extractor.
Second the aliens can just charge the marines as they are building. This is true but it is not like the marines can't just stop building and shot the aliens. In a match-up 2 aliens vs 2 marines with the hit reg and all the computer gods in the right place the marines should always win. Now why is this, because it is actually 3 marines (2 marines + commander). Marines get healed from the hand of god. So for aliens to be in the same boat you would need to equate this to a gorge following the 2 marines healing them.
DISPARITIES (Partial Features That Were Taken From NS1 but forgot about the counter balance)
Cloaking- NS1 counter to Alien cloaking was motion tracking. Now it is requiring the commander to drop 3 resources every 5 seconds (Scan) in every room that has marines in it.
Ability for aliens to respond to a hive being attacked- NS1 had chamber(MT)/Hive teleport to the hive under attack. NS2 removed the ability to ninja gate hive's due to the lack of, that's right no way for aliens to react to the hive being attacked in time.
So now we have these 5 tech points. Marines have 2 aliens have 3 who wins? Yes you guessed it aliens. Why, cause aliens sacrificing their 3rd hive for marines 2nd tech point is huge problem due to marines losing their higher tier JP/Exo.
Counter to Onos- NS1 that is right we called it a HMG(Heavy Machine Gun) which could be used by both the heavy armor and the Jetpackers. What do Jetpackers have to counter Onos now? NS2 gives us Exo which has zero mobility and is pretty much locked to base defense against a mobile onos.
I don't even want to touch all the abilities/moves that impair marine vision in NS2. While marines are stale and have nothing that impairs a melee alien from whacking me at close range.
Probably alot more but I'm tired and have addressed alot of these issues in previous postings that have been over shadowed by the terrible game performance issues.
Post your detailed theory regarding the core balance issue that is causing aliens to win more often than marines. Don't flame or reference other people's theories. <!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--coloro:#FF00FF--><span style="color:#FF00FF"><!--/coloro--><!--sizeo:5--><span style="font-size:18pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->TL;DR
<!--sizeo:5--><span style="font-size:18pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->Bad marines on pubs<!--sizeo:5--><span style="font-size:18pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->. Bad commander or no commander <!--sizeo:5--><span style="font-size:18pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->on marine side <!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->for <!--sizeo:5--><span style="font-size:18pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->over a minute<!--sizeo:5--><span style="font-size:18pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->.<!--sizeo:5--><span style="font-size:18pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--> 70<!--sizeo:5--><span style="font-size:18pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->% (scientifically evidenced percentage, o<!--sizeo:5--><span style="font-size:18pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->bviously) <!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->on pubs making robo factory before jetpacks are out<!--sizeo:5--><span style="font-size:18pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->, and robo factories without arc usage<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->. <!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->Aliens being a lot <!--sizeo:5--><span style="font-size:18pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->easier to aim with when someone gets ambus<!--sizeo:5--><span style="font-size:18pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->hed. Nobody <!--sizeo:5--><span style="font-size:18pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->being actually able to aim well enough to kill lerks and fades.<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
<!--sizeo:5--><span style="font-size:18pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->Also <!--sizeo:7--><span style="font-size:36pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->SENTRIES IN EVERY ROOM.<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
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Hmm, I dont agree.
I played a few rounds last night gorge only and I found that commanders react favorably towards gorges, I was calling the shots oh buildings in certain places, protecting them with clogs and hydras, and moving forward pushing with spit clogs adn hydras, made it from sub to skylights, got a forward base built there, all with the help of the commander.
The commander should be able to select hive type, do upgrades, cyst, etc, but give gorges something to do, drop RTs, drop crags, etc.
They will change the flow of the game immensly. As it is right now we never see a crag outside of the hive in the mid game because commanders are saving resources for eggs and upgrades. Gorges can go 30-50 res mid game because they have nothing to drop.
Ive finished games as gorge with 100 res... I know that is wrong, that res shouldve went to use, another player wouldve spent it right away, I had nothing to do with it and I did not feel like playing another life form.
All I am asking is give gorges structures to build. a gorge recapping nodes and building bases seems like an extremely useful role for it.
I just love gorges man.
I like to attack cysts as well, but sometimes you just gotta realize that there are bigger fish to kill. Most people get hung up on cysts, clogs, and whips when you can easily laugh and run right past them in most cases. After that, it's time to target extractors or enemy upgrades.
Impart a sense of urgency.
Yes, it is dangerous. Yes, marines do need to stick together. But it's even more important to stop the spread of infestation!
For instance, having periodic voice messages from the comm (by which I mean the game comm, not the player, the one who says things like "Build this") saying things like:
"Strike teams move out! We need to contain this infestation before it spreads across the station!"
"Find and destroy the alien hive! We need to plug the infestation at its source before it's too late!"
This would let new players know that things are urgent and they can't waste any time.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I really, really like this idea.
Maybe not exactly in this form, but having more atmosphere to inform players, new and old alike, as to what they should generally be up to, is a fantastic idea. Something to take a little pressure off the already-overloaded marine comm, and to foster a better aesthetic feel in general.
In addition to that the third Hive needs to be the ultimate game ender once again. Right now having a third Hive usually means that Kharaa can compete with an Marine team that has reached JP/Exo tech. So Marine teams usually don't place that much importance on keeping Kharaa at 2 Hives until they get overrun by an endless number of Onos eggs. But that's only viable because the Kharaa team has so too much map control/res income to sustain those Onos eggs. A third Hive should give the Kharaa team the option to compete with the Marines even if they lost the RT game. That way the Khamm can either go for a quick third Hive or play the "map control" game and drown Marines with an massive income of p.res/higher lifeforms.
But right now playing the Khamm feels way too cookiecutter, you barely get punished for expanding too fast/too far, as Marines often have a really hard time pushing back such rapid and far stretching expansion.
On the Marine side i still believe that "area waypoints" could really help with making Marines more aggressive without forcing the Commander to babysit them into offensive play by yelling trough voice. New Marines often don't know what to do or where to go unless the Commander constantly keeps repeating what they should do. Adding "mission type area waypoints" could help with that. That way new Marine players just need to take a look at the map and see different objectives they could go for. Instead of only having the same generic waypoint that's usually outdated and doesn't tell the Marine much besides "go there! Why? Who the hell knows!".
As alien commander I can get away with saying almost nothing to my team. Coordination/arguing/discussing/planning/micromanaging all of these things can happen as an alien, but don't need to. I just cyst to whereever I want and my buildings build themselves. Meanwhile my teammates with lack of any other objective will attack and defend. If I need the team to reinforce an area I just drop a shift and spawn eggs there. It's actually a really nice and fun and easy experience.
As the marine commander, I am reliant on my marines to expand and defend. I typically feel I have to micromanage every single marine. If I want a res node, I have to get some but not all marines to that room, they have to build the power and not die, then they have to build the res node and not die. In fact I probably have two teams of marines doing this at the same time. When something goes wrong, I feel obligated to point it out and hope the appropriate number of marines responds and goes to the correct spot, or spend even more time telling which marines to go where. In a public game this is kind of difficult, and a huge pain. Of course if I was playing with a team of marines that know what to do, this whole problem becomes a non-issue.
Summary: Alien commander is much more suited for public play.
it's tough to balance this game if marines are killing skulks at high levels of play but skulks are killing marines everywhere else.
the developers have to pick one set of rules, and it's hard if marines are winning tournaments, but aliens are winning pubs
it's tough to balance this game if marines are killing skulks at high levels of play but skulks are killing marines everywhere else.
the developers have to pick one set of rules, and it's hard if marines are winning tournaments, but aliens are winning pubs<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No they are not, Aliens dominate at all levels of play. Only time Marines win in a massive mis-match in comp teams, much like how Marines only win due to stacked teams in Pubs.
Obviously, the commander should communicate with his team, if a marine says scan plz they have camo the comm should better scan but that's not what we are talking about. It is the comm's job to tell his marines where to go and what to do, not the other way around. The comm knows it all because he sees the map from a top down view, well at least he knows more about the global situation than the boots on the ground. So many players dont get this and it kills the marine efficiency. I have seen 1 hive lockdown games get lost thanks to this.
Edit: To be clear, I agree that communication is a crucial skill for a commander, however the current interface + marine hud has some liabilities. For example, I am missing the "Move to your waypoint" line the most. Sometimes as a marine I did not even notice I was ordered to do something if no voice or chat was involved.
As for mines, they certainly are effective at hindering skulks but they are not cost effective at all.
Marines are supposed to have the ranged advantage. In terms of ranged base defenses, the aliens have all the advantages: Grenade resistant blockades, Grenade reflecting buildings, no blind spots, even upgradeable to be anti exo.
I am not writing this because i want to see more marine turtles. I am writing this because this enables the aliens to go kamikaze baserush/RT-harrass all the time in pubs. They dont have to worry about the marines locking down a key area as they had in ns1, simply because they cant. Each point of res the marines spend in defense is wasted.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
1. That's all true, and completely backs my post, and contradicts your earlier post. Here you point out some of the reasons the marine commander deserves to be treated as the team's authority, whereas before you said the commander had little authority. (Although to be fair, the commander doesn't really have any more information than a "boot on the ground" who understands what the Map button does.)
As for mines, I'm not really sure how you could think they aren't cost effective. I guess maybe if you're measuring the wrong metric (Kills/Rez, instead of Increased Win Rate/Rez.) I'm confident that a graph of Win Rate vs. Team Mines Placed In First 10 Mins would paint an extremely clear picture of just how potent mines are. They're borderline overpowered in how much map control they give the early marine team.
While it's true GLs are trash right now and need an improvement, that doesn't change the fact that turrets aren't really any worse than most shooting buildings in NS2 (for good reason.) The main difference is the lack of constant alien resource expenditure compared with Med/Ammo/Shield spam. This results in endgame alien commanding revolving around many more buildings than marines.
It's simple, loosing because of players seems to be independant of the team your in, but loosing because of the commander seems to be more pronounced for marines because a marine commander has to have a deeper understanding of the game mechanics than the khammander.
And this mainly because aliens can win if their commander just focusses on expanding and gaining ressources (when they reach 75 res you know what comes next, doesn't matter if some upgrades were missing along the way), while the marine commander has to know what to research and when,k so that marines can finally gain an edge. If the commander fails to do this properly then the team can only rely on pure skill, which is difficult to maintain for a long period.
Oh and by the way I wanted to mention that alot of commanders miss the important researchs and do the wrong choices, which might account for the beforementionned as well. The most notable example beeing to not research mines and spamming the map with turrets. Seriously who doesn't get this? Wasting res on turrets when marines could be using their own to plant very effective mines, while leaving res for the commander to research more stuff. But then again this is a discussion for another topic.
Edit: To be clear, I agree that communication is a crucial skill for a commander, however the current interface + marine hud has some liabilities. For example, I am missing the "Move to your waypoint" line the most. Sometimes as a marine I did not even notice I was ordered to do something if no voice or chat was involved.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I meant that both ways, the commander should listen to the marines, because at least during the early game, when he focusses on base build up, the the boots might know more about what's going on on the map and sometimes I had great khommanders who knew how to support their team while probably not following his usual build up.
That's the synergy you need, if you think that the commander is allknowing and allpowerfull then your part of the problem and not part of the solution.
I also meant the commander should talk to the marines, use his mic or buy one if he has none, because that's how a commander should be played. That goes for both teams. I've played several games where marine commander just play solo not "commanding" and as a marine I like the militaristic feel of following orders. That gives the team confidence in it's commander and makes you know exactly where you should be, when and what you should be doing. I hate it to be clueless about what to do next and usually that makes me get awoll.
On the plus side if you have a substantial communication between team and commander then you counter the psychological loosing effect that makes people leave the game when it looks like your loosing. If the commander keeps encouraging their team and giving reasons why something isn't being researched or why there was no scan or other, you start playing as the game was meant to be played and if both teams do that, then you'll start playing games that extend over the hour and win or loss won't matter anymore because those were simply very good games.
Not my preferred option, but one way to keep gameplay in line with message is to actually allow marines to properly lock down areas.
This should be time costly, but cost little to no res (res cost will come from losing map control due to time spent locking down areas).
The `lock-down' should be strong enough that marines will be able to make a strong push without having to worry about their base being harassed - and strong enough to make up for the res disadvantage resulting from the loss of map control.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is allready being though of whith the ability of welding doors, just don't know when they'll implement it.
So we have to find something, which slows down early alien expansions, which makes the alien com more depending on its team, but which still makes the com not useless/boring to play (gorges build everything or most buildings).
My suggestions are
- let gorges build cysts (I wrote that here already, still like it the best, since I love gorges and played gorge in NS1 all the time)
- let gorges build Restowers OR crags/shifts/shades/whips (I think this makes alien com a little more boring)
- let alien com build Cysts only in room where teammates are present or in line of sight of teammates
that's all I can think of right now. I still like the cyst building gorge the most.