ns2_untitled - Need feedback on layout!
BigImp
Join Date: 2010-11-19 Member: 75036Members, NS2 Playtester, WC 2013 - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester
Join Date: 2010-11-19 Member: 75036Members, NS2 Playtester, WC 2013 - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester
Layout only: <a href="http://d.pr/i/cpyD" target="_blank">http://d.pr/i/cpyD</a> (orange = vents)
Layout with labels: <a href="http://d.pr/i/UoUk" target="_blank">http://d.pr/i/UoUk</a> (t = tech point area, r = resource expansion area, a = misc area)
My intent:
<ul><li>3/4/3 design, which I hope will bring new variety to gameplay</li><li>i tried to lay out the map such that each area provides a unique fighting situation</li><li>generally, each tech point is close to one expansion area, and not to far from another (varies from tech point to tech point)</li><li>either team (marine/alien) can start at any tech point</li><li>with the exception of a5, each labeled area has a power node</li><li>hopefully the random locations and the lay out make it so every game on this map is very different from the last</li><li>i hope the map is a little more forgiving of early game fallbacks than the average ns2 map (due to more expansion options). this map is more of a resource point battle than a tech point battle</li><li>most of the long corridors will have obstacles placed, be broken up or otherwise redesigned... there will probably be one or two long tunnels that stay.</li><li>ideally, each tech point area will have distinct advantages and disadvantages (e.g. some are just begging to be hit by arc, others are easy to walk into, etc.)</li></ul>
I've played countless hours of NS1, and around 400 of NS2 so I definitely have my play experience, but this is my first NS/NS2 map. I'm trying to focus with the layout primarily, and I figure I can make the rest work after. Would appreciate your feedback!
Layout with labels: <a href="http://d.pr/i/UoUk" target="_blank">http://d.pr/i/UoUk</a> (t = tech point area, r = resource expansion area, a = misc area)
My intent:
<ul><li>3/4/3 design, which I hope will bring new variety to gameplay</li><li>i tried to lay out the map such that each area provides a unique fighting situation</li><li>generally, each tech point is close to one expansion area, and not to far from another (varies from tech point to tech point)</li><li>either team (marine/alien) can start at any tech point</li><li>with the exception of a5, each labeled area has a power node</li><li>hopefully the random locations and the lay out make it so every game on this map is very different from the last</li><li>i hope the map is a little more forgiving of early game fallbacks than the average ns2 map (due to more expansion options). this map is more of a resource point battle than a tech point battle</li><li>most of the long corridors will have obstacles placed, be broken up or otherwise redesigned... there will probably be one or two long tunnels that stay.</li><li>ideally, each tech point area will have distinct advantages and disadvantages (e.g. some are just begging to be hit by arc, others are easy to walk into, etc.)</li></ul>
I've played countless hours of NS1, and around 400 of NS2 so I definitely have my play experience, but this is my first NS/NS2 map. I'm trying to focus with the layout primarily, and I figure I can make the rest work after. Would appreciate your feedback!
Comments
I also had some specific questions, namely about props vs geometry (I tried searching the forums for the answer but never found anything conclusive). If I made 3 similar levels (i.e. same lights, entities, etc., and they look similar or identical to each other):
a. one level using only geometry (lots of it)
b. one level using a little geometry and a few different props, each used many times
c. one level using a little geometry and many different props, each used a few times
I realize that most maps will have a combination of those... but I'm wondering, if I went to extremes, how does each of a/b/c affect:
1. Framerate on low end PC
2. Framerate on high end PC
3. Load time for the level (in the game, not too concerned about editor load times)
4. File size for the level
5. Anything else that could be different?
Thanks!
Personally I like geometry a lot and I spice it up with a little prop here and there. Others do it the other way round. Performance wise I don't know the effects but generally the more you have the harder it is on the machine, be it geometry, props, variation of props, textures, lights and the field of view. Everything comes into account. Just balance it out how you feel it proper. Extremes are never good, as you show they would cater to high or low end machines, if it is balanced between geo and props it should run good on all machines. The official maps are quite heavy and represent a tremendous amount of work. I don't think as an amateur mapper you will find the time to equal such load, so as long as everything is in the right proportions I wouldn't worry too much about performance. Just check r_stats as you progress and compare with official maps.
<a href="http://d.pr/i/Q0Qh" target="_blank">Location: r1</a>
<a href="http://d.pr/i/mzVy" target="_blank">Location: r1 to t4</a>
<a href="http://d.pr/i/YYXl" target="_blank">Location: r1 to a2</a>
<a href="http://d.pr/i/ND83" target="_blank">Location: a1</a>
<a href="http://d.pr/i/2lxA" target="_blank">Location: a1 to a2</a>
<a href="http://d.pr/i/NpTP" target="_blank">Location: t1 to a1</a> (t1 has no lights yet)
<a href="http://d.pr/i/UoUk" target="_blank">Map with labels</a> (slightly changed since)
My first thought was that holding a4 splits the map into two, so it might be a problem if Aliens start on left side, Marines on right and hold a4 (two Hives on left side only). But that might not be a problem as well, so I don't think you should change that (at least not now).
Only thing I can definitely say that the map seems too dark. People will complain.
Personally I like the verticality that can be seen in some of your shots. More of that please.
And as you have no minimap: <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=119239" target="_blank">this link is your best friend! It's really easy and works great.</a>
A5 seems pointlessly complex, it'll just confuse people having that many vents.
Its got some really nice ideas in there, but you're gonna need to test these ideas. Lighten your map and just use dev textures. Play the steamworks build of ns_caged, perfect example of how to gray box a map with enough detail for gameplay.
Keep up the good work, and considering joining our <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=126987" target="_blank">playtest sessions</a> its insightful to test other peoples work and talk to the person behind it. Moreover, we could test your map (once its actually got lights) :P
and it is a little dark, ambient lights are your friend.
- Thanks for minimap generation link, will definitely be using that soon!
- I haven't release the .level yet because much of the map needs a lot of change before it plays right. I realized running around that the distances are still a bit far off what I had in my head. I will only do basic grey geometry again for the next little while... I just wanted to see how doable details were with the editor, and how much time things took, since this is my first NS2 map (and first map in over a decade or something). Also, I now see that there are important minimum distances to consider around tech points otherwise creep, eggs, etc. would go through walls... unless there's a way to tell the game where the (un)acceptable areas are?
- It's intentionally dark, though I may brighten if people still find it too dark when they play it. I did want some places to be fairly dark even when there is power... aliens would still be visible in those areas, but harder to see. Basically I'd like to try and provide 'cover' for aliens in new ways, one of which is using the darkness. I actually do have some ambient lights, but they're intentionally dim. Again, I may revise the lighting based on gameplay feedback.
- Regarding the comments about a4, I agree and disagree. I'm not sure how it would play out in a real game... I mean if you take over the 2 hives on the left and block a4, you also leave 4 tech points to the other team. If you're on the right side, I don't think it would be easy to hold a4 along with 4 tech points, at least not until you're dominating already. There's a good chance I'll move t2 to the left a bit, and also make the entire map thinner horizontally (in the map overview). Also, a4 is on lower ground, so that should make it harder to hold. I'll think about this one some more.
- I should mention that the map as it stands is aimed at 16-20+ player games. I'm hoping it will work well enough for competitive games, but in this case that's a secondary concern, not the primary one.
- A big goal is to provide new gameplay experiences without changing the game code or whatever. I.e. I want the map to have unique strategies and fighting situations. There's at least one big surprise coming in another part of the map. :)
<a href="http://d.pr/i/P5H9" target="_blank">Screenshot 1</a> - lighting incomplete - also, in case it's not obvious, falling in the lava kills you
<a href="http://d.pr/i/QsQf" target="_blank">Screenshot 2</a> - lighting mostly complete (will be slightly brighter but not by much... enemies in the reddish areas will appear, but will be fuzzy due to heat from lava :) )
<a href="http://d.pr/i/7Knq" target="_blank">Screenshot 3</a> - lighting mostly complete
<a href="http://d.pr/i/oJ44" target="_blank">Screenshot 4</a> - lighting mostly complete (will add a bit of ambient light around spotlights, but I intend to leave the atmospherics fairly thick in that area)
<a href="http://d.pr/i/TgmR" target="_blank">Screenshot 5</a> - lighting mostly complete
<a href="http://d.pr/i/gQBQ" target="_blank">Screenshot 6</a> - lighting mostly complete
<a href="http://d.pr/i/aHBl" target="_blank">Screenshot 7</a> - lighting mostly complete
<a href="http://d.pr/i/Ir19" target="_blank">Screenshot 8</a> - lighting mostly complete
Notes:
- I'll add more props to areas later, depending on gameplay/balance needs first (e.g. to partition a long corridor).
- Vent locations are definitely subject to change and won't be placed in the map until most of the main paths/geometry are already complete. They were added in photoshop in that minimap I shared earlier.
- I *think* the lighting in-game seems brighter than the screenshots, but testing will tell, when I release the .level (will do as soon as possible!)
By the way, besides one or two other areas, most of the map will be indoors and not particularly 'crazy' with texturing and geometry. I'll release some a .level as soon as I have more of the geometry in place. So far my work has been about learning to use the editor and the feasibility of doing different things.
Also, I wouldn't call Summit simple... e.g. look at crevice, atrium and crossroads. They all look really unique and I think that actually helps a lot with learning the map. In fact I would say Summit is a big influence in that sense... I really like how each area has its own thing going. On the other hand, Mineshaft looks amazing and tech point areas *are* unique, but the corridors often look similar and I still get a lost in it sometimes due to that, even after hours of play.
Anyway, thanks for the feedback!
PS: Jambi looks pretty cool in the screenshots, I hope to check it out soon. :)
Maybe a hallway between T4 and the hallway due north of T5 would fix this issue.
Depends, just look at what happens with early skulk rush's, marines wont have a chance to really expand with the constant skulk attacks on their base.