<!--quoteo(post=2058101:date=Jan 9 2013, 11:54 AM:name=Zek)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Zek @ Jan 9 2013, 11:54 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2058101"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->For that last one, PLEASE fix it so that it doesn't show the countdown until you're eligible to spawn in that wave(or make it show the real adjusted countdown). So frustrating to watch it say "3...2...1...Spawning now...just kidding".<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> As gliss said, this is because your egg is pre-selected as soon as the spawn timer starts. Dying as an egg will reset your timer. Whether or not this is intentional or a bug i have no idea (hope its a bug).
<!--quoteo(post=2058128:date=Jan 9 2013, 12:55 PM:name=MrChoke)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MrChoke @ Jan 9 2013, 12:55 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2058128"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So does this mean, the plan is to include the previous changes as well as these? Or are the previous changes and these just being tested with no guarantee of what will be in and what will not be?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> It seems the spawn changes have been put in to test in isolation. It's very very important to get spawn rates right and i agree with this move. There is ofcourse no guarantee (just a high chance) that anything on the balance patch will make it into the official build, that's what the whole testing/feedback part is for. The only thing you'll get with reasonable certainty is an idea of the areas being looked at by Flayra, and the general direction changes are going in.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->2nd question, the item: O Alien spawn wave now has a max size of 3, per hive. What is the current max number of spawn waves?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> The current max number per spawn wave is 100%. That is, max spawn wave = current number of dead aliens. *edit* the only players that won't spawn obviously are those being locked out by auto team balance, or those that don't have an egg / have not passed the minimum death time.
<!--quoteo(post=2058208:date=Jan 9 2013, 04:34 PM:name=MisterNubs)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MisterNubs @ Jan 9 2013, 04:34 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2058208"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->How does this non-existant scaling work for 9v9 or higher games?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> It 'most likely' doesn't, but baby steps. This is finally going in a good direction after many many months of 100% spawn waves plaguing the game and hiding many other problems. Unlike most other changes, this one requires alot of testing and a reasonable ammount of actual data with alot of different player sized games. So if you see a server running the mod you should try it out and whatnot.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->O Aliens must be dead for at least 6 seconds before they can respawn (up from 3)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't think this feature is very intuitive and it really doesn't fit with the common understanding of how spawn waves work (for a player) unless you put an explanation in the game.
<!--quoteo(post=2058397:date=Jan 9 2013, 11:23 AM:name=elodea)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (elodea @ Jan 9 2013, 11:23 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2058397"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->As gliss said, this is because your egg is pre-selected as soon as the spawn timer starts. Dying as an egg will reset your timer. Whether or not this is intentional or a bug i have no idea (hope its a bug).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I tested it yesterday in a local game. Joined aliens with some bots, killed one, and then killed myself when his spawn timer was below 3. I entered the spawn queue and saw the timer counting down from 2 seconds, and then it reached zero and I didn't spawn. This happens to me constantly, you guys have really never noticed it?
Can we just make the spawning simple and make sense at the same time?
Yup another great idea -
After dying the alien spawns in an available egg. He/she then starts evolving from the spermatoza embryo to a skulk. It would be like when the player is evolving with the percentage shown. It would take 6 seconds to pop out as a skulk. Marines of course can kill the egg with the proper reward.
<!--quoteo(post=2058522:date=Jan 9 2013, 09:13 PM:name=alster)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (alster @ Jan 9 2013, 09:13 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2058522"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Can we just make the spawning simple and make sense at the same time?
Yup another great idea -
After dying the alien spawns in an available egg. He/she then starts evolving from the spermatoza embryo to a skulk. It would be like when the player is evolving with the percentage shown. It would take 6 seconds to pop out as a skulk. Marines of course can kill the egg with the proper reward.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think the spawning of aliens at the same time is a balance factor. e.g. if you try to cap a hive with the help of a shift theres a big difference between 6 aliens spawning over the course of 10 seconds and 6 aliens spawning at the same time.
<!--quoteo(post=2058528:date=Jan 9 2013, 03:28 PM:name=gnoarch)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (gnoarch @ Jan 9 2013, 03:28 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2058528"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think the spawning of aliens at the same time is a balance factor. e.g. if you try to cap a hive with the help of a shift theres a big difference between 6 aliens spawning over the course of 10 seconds and 6 aliens spawning at the same time.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It makes sense to me that each player should spawn into an available egg immediately upon death, if an egg is ready. Egg lock is almost an entirely separate issue and I don't think it should be addressed by forcing aliens to spawn in waves (because this inevitably leads to some people waiting a long time to spawn!). I like the above idea of a 6 second timer after death, if the egg is available. If marines are in your hive, you need to stop them from egg locking you, and there are perhaps other ways to approach this issue than we currently have...
rhombusLerk QueenJoin Date: 2011-06-23Member: 106055Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
edited January 2013
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->O Alien spawn wave now has a max size of <b>3</b>, per hive. O Aliens must be dead for <b>at least 6 seconds</b> before they can respawn (up from 3)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Cool. Who wants a Firefall beta key? I have plenty. You could probably get a full PVP round in before you spawn.
<!--quoteo(post=2058584:date=Jan 9 2013, 05:19 PM:name=rhombus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (rhombus @ Jan 9 2013, 05:19 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2058584"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Cool. Who wants a Firefall beta key? I have plenty. You could probably get a full PVP round in before you spawn.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What do you propose? The aliens win too much. Should we not do anything then? Let's leave the game broken. They increased marine apwn time too from 7 to 9 seconds, did you forget this? I am not sure why they did this but the least they can do is increase aliens. And if aliens feel their increase more than marines, GOOD.
I'm okay with increasing minimum spawn times, but it does suck that the maximum spawn time is consequently increased as well. Getting caught in the slowest possible spawn wave is going to be a bummer - it's the difference between, what, 6 seconds and 18 seconds? Based on a difference of one second in when you die? And that's assuming that you make it into the first wave of three eggs on one hive, which you won't on a larger server.
I would like to see the spawn wave time reduced in exchange for increasing the minimum time. Hell, the minimum time could be even longer than a single wave if need be. For example, 8 seconds minimum death time, 6 second waves, etc. Just throwing numbers out there, but the times don't have to be connected.
<!--quoteo(post=2058596:date=Jan 9 2013, 05:42 PM:name=MrChoke)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MrChoke @ Jan 9 2013, 05:42 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2058596"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What do you propose? The aliens win too much. Should we not do anything then? Let's leave the game broken. They increased marine apwn time too from 7 to 9 seconds, did you forget this? I am not sure why they did this but the least they can do is increase aliens. And if aliens feel their increase more than marines, GOOD.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hm overall the changes seem to just prolong the game. I wonder if it is related to cyst changes as a faster spawning game on both sides would mean marines can go and destroy cysts easily and now that the infestation retracts instantly, it would mean bad news if marines just kept popping out. Making the spawn time longer sort of prolongs the game allowing alien structures/cysts to grow when dead unless you are very good at survival. Still these changes are confusing and I do not understand some of them. Really wish I could find an east coast balance mod server to see how it plays.
rhombusLerk QueenJoin Date: 2011-06-23Member: 106055Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
edited January 2013
<!--quoteo(post=2058609:date=Jan 9 2013, 05:57 PM:name=GORGEous)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GORGEous @ Jan 9 2013, 05:57 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2058609"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Firefall was pretty fun. Too bad I finished the game's content in like 5 hours. :(<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Patch out tonight/tomorrow. :D
<!--quoteo(post=2058596:date=Jan 9 2013, 05:42 PM:name=MrChoke)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MrChoke @ Jan 9 2013, 05:42 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2058596"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What do you propose? The aliens win too much. Should we not do anything then? Let's leave the game broken. They increased marine apwn time too from 7 to 9 seconds, did you forget this? I am not sure why they did this but the least they can do is increase aliens. And if aliens feel their increase more than marines, GOOD.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I love how you jump through hoops like a circus monkey to make assumptions that make you look more and more like an idiot. The changes they did are in no way how you fix the spawn issues with Aliens. So long as you kill more than you die in engagements, you'll beat the spawn wave system. Only thing it does is prevent rapid egg loss in large games, and full respawns in small games. Enjoy your spawn wait.
SewlekThe programmer previously known as SchimmelJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16247Members, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Gold, Subnautica Developer
<!--quoteo(post=2058397:date=Jan 9 2013, 11:23 AM:name=elodea)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (elodea @ Jan 9 2013, 11:23 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2058397"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->As gliss said, this is because your egg is pre-selected as soon as the spawn timer starts. Dying as an egg will reset your timer. Whether or not this is intentional or a bug i have no idea (hope its a bug).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
nope thats wrong. eggs are not preselected. the problem is the minimum death timer (3 seconds). so when you enter the queue too late or you are at the end of the queue and not enough eggs are available, the UI will still show you the wave spawn timer but well, nothing happens. thats a problem of the UI not being smart enough though and its fixed for the next patch.
<!--quoteo(post=2058628:date=Jan 9 2013, 06:24 PM:name=rhombus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (rhombus @ Jan 9 2013, 06:24 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2058628"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I love how you jump through hoops like a circus monkey to make assumptions that make you look more and more like an idiot. The changes they did are in no way how you fix the spawn issues with Aliens. So long as you kill more than you die in engagements, you'll beat the spawn wave system. Only thing it does is prevent rapid egg loss in large games, and full respawns in small games. Enjoy your spawn wait.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Is this directed at me? I am an idiot? Listen moron, I didn't propose ANY spawn changes. UWE did. Are they morons too? Personally I wasn't aware of any spawn issues on either side. They are trying to balance the game. Is that so difficult to deal with for you?
<!--quoteo(post=2058842:date=Jan 10 2013, 08:46 AM:name=MrChoke)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MrChoke @ Jan 10 2013, 08:46 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2058842"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Is this directed at me? I am an idiot? Listen moron, I didn't propose ANY spawn changes. UWE did. Are they morons too? Personally I wasn't aware of any spawn issues on either side. They are trying to balance the game. Is that so difficult to deal with for you?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The problem is that these changes are poor fixes for the problem being addressed. As well, I'm not even sure they actually address a real problem, as all they've accomplished with these changes is a lengthier spawn time (you're going to start seeing more people waiting an average of 30+ seconds to spawn, have fun with that), as well as increased the already lengthy alien spawn timer.
Saying that marine spawn time increased from 7 seconds to 9 seconds means exceedingly little when these changes put the minimum spawn time for aliens at 18 seconds, and the maximum (if everyone on a 12 man team dies at once) at 50+ seconds. God help you if you're on that 12 man team and people die again after respawn, and you get knocked out of your place in queue (which happens all the time already, by the way).
These changes create more issues than they fix. So yes, you are jumping through hoops to rationalize them, and if you don't think you are, then yes, you are being an idiot.
How the $@#U() is the MINIMUM alien spawn time 18 seconds???? Its 6 seconds.. 3 aliens can spawn at once, so really its effectively more like 2 or 3 seconds when compared to a single marine IP.
For a 12 man team with unlimited eggs it would take 24 seconds for the final aliens to spawn if the entire team died at once.. on ONE hive. Two hives would cut that in half. If you dont think that spawn rate is completely ridiculous.. then you are completely clueless. For comparison, with the current marine spawn rate (7s) it would take ~3.5 IPs to equal the spawn rate of 1 hive.
These changes will help address the zergy gameplay that NS2 offers, where many battles are not decided by which team wins the engagements, moreso by which one has the greater respawn capabilities.
<!--quoteo(post=2058920:date=Jan 10 2013, 01:50 PM:name=xDragon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (xDragon @ Jan 10 2013, 01:50 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2058920"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->How the $@#U() is the MINIMUM alien spawn time 18 seconds???? Its 6 seconds.. 3 aliens can spawn at once, so really its effectively more like 2 or 3 seconds when compared to a single marine IP.
For a 12 man team with unlimited eggs it would take 24 seconds for the final aliens to spawn if the entire team died at once.. on ONE hive. Two hives would cut that in half. If you dont think that spawn rate is completely ridiculous.. then you are completely clueless. For comparison, with the current marine spawn rate (7s) it would take ~3.5 IPs to equal the spawn rate of 1 hive.
These changes will help address the zergy gameplay that NS2 offers, where many battles are not decided by which team wins the engagements, moreso by which one has the greater respawn capabilities.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The time before you entered the QUEUE to spawn was 3 seconds, now changed to 6. The time to spawn is 12 seconds. Also, you spend 1-2 seconds in an egg before you actually spawn. So actually its a minimum of 20 seconds to spawn.
20 seconds for the first wave. 12 more for the next three puts you at 32 seconds for half your team. 24 more seconds for the second half is 56 seconds. If anyone else dies, someone (not necessarily that person) waits another 12-18 seconds depending on how the queue sorts it out.
If when you say "these changes help address the zergy gameplay" you mean that aliens can now feel the effects of being egg locked, without actually being egg locked, then yes. That's exactly what this does.
<!--quoteo(post=2058903:date=Jan 10 2013, 01:09 PM:name=RedDragon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RedDragon @ Jan 10 2013, 01:09 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2058903"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The problem is that these changes are poor fixes for the problem being addressed. As well, I'm not even sure they actually address a real problem, as all they've accomplished with these changes is a lengthier spawn time (you're going to start seeing more people waiting an average of 30+ seconds to spawn, have fun with that), as well as increased the already lengthy alien spawn timer.
Saying that marine spawn time increased from 7 seconds to 9 seconds means exceedingly little when these changes put the minimum spawn time for aliens at 18 seconds, and the maximum (if everyone on a 12 man team dies at once) at 50+ seconds. God help you if you're on that 12 man team and people die again after respawn, and you get knocked out of your place in queue (which happens all the time already, by the way).
These changes create more issues than they fix. So yes, you are jumping through hoops to rationalize them, and if you don't think you are, then yes, you are being an idiot.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
First of all, all I said was if they are going to increase marine spawn time, it is good they are increasing the alien ones as well. A nice common sense argument that apparently two people in this thread do not get. Does that sound like I am bending over backwards for it? NO.
Have I been bending over backwards trying to say "FIX SOMETHING" to stop marines from getting wiped so often. Yes, I have. Did I say spawn time changes are the answer, NO. UWE did. Do you think their goal is to make spawn times painfully long like what you and a "few" others imply? By what you say you are saying that "yes" UWE are idiots and YES, they want people to hate the game and stop playing. Now, who sounds like an idiot here. You or me?
<!--quoteo(post=2058935:date=Jan 10 2013, 02:14 PM:name=MrChoke)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MrChoke @ Jan 10 2013, 02:14 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2058935"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->First of all, all I said was if they are going to increase marine spawn time, it is good they are increasing the alien ones as well. A nice common sense argument that apparently two people in this thread do not get. Does that sound like I am bending over backwards for it? NO.
Have I been bending over backwards trying to say "FIX SOMETHING" to stop marines from getting wiped so often. Yes, I have. Did I say spawn time changes are the answer, NO. UWE did. Do you think their goal is to make spawn times painfully long like what you and a "few" others imply? By what you say you are saying that "yes" UWE are idiots and YES, they want people to hate the game and stop playing. Now, who sounds like an idiot here. You or me?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The problem, Mr. Choke, is that they didn't just increase the alien spawn time, they also restricted alien spawn to 3 per hive. Now, rush a second hive, and perhaps this is a moot point. But regardless, the changes to the alien spawn system is rather more significant than the 2 second increase for the marines.
As well, I've made no comment suggesting anything regarding UWE's intent on the matter. I have no idea what they're thinking, and for all any of us know, these changes were a test, and they fully intend to remove them. Now, do I think these changes create more problems than they solve? Yes, and I've stated as much, whatever their intended effect. Also, I'm not "implying" anything with my assessment, I'm stating how the spawn system works. Unless of course I've completely missed something, but I don't think I have. Feel free to take a look at the code and see for yourself.
As for your final question. Seeing as I've suggested neither of those things, I'd say you look a bit foolish, yes. Feel free to disagree.
Right forgot about the wave time, which is currently 13 seconds. Problem there is that the minimum death time is not considered before you are put into the queue, your put in instantly. So currently in NS2 after 13 +/-1 second the ENTIRE alien team will respawn.
These changes would cause 12 dead aliens to take 52 seconds to respawn... on 1 hive... If you think that the current alien spawn rates are balanced I'm very sorry to say that your completely wrong. Unless your considering that the value of a skulk is intended to be about half of that as a vanilla marine, something needs to change regarding alien spawn rates.
<!--quoteo(post=2058946:date=Jan 10 2013, 02:30 PM:name=xDragon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (xDragon @ Jan 10 2013, 02:30 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2058946"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Right forgot about the wave time, which is currently 13 seconds. Problem there is that the minimum death time is not considered before you are put into the queue, your put in instantly. So currently in NS2 after 13 +/-1 second the ENTIRE alien team will respawn.
These changes would cause 12 dead aliens to take 52 seconds to respawn... on 1 hive... If you think that the current alien spawn rates are balanced I'm very sorry to say that your completely wrong. Unless your considering that the value of a skulk is intended to be about half of that as a vanilla marine, something needs to change regarding alien spawn rates.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not entirely sure who you're addressing, but I assume you're talking to me.
I'm well aware that the current system isn't balanced, and I never even attempted to suggest that it was. What I did suggest was that these changes are the wrong solution to the problem.
<!--quoteo(post=2058957:date=Jan 10 2013, 02:43 PM:name=xDragon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (xDragon @ Jan 10 2013, 02:43 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2058957"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I dont see how you can say they are the wrong solution, if anything the alien changes may not be substantial enough.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, if the changes go into effect, I suppose we'll certainly find out wont we? That said. I don't think I'll enjoy a 1+ minute spawn time as an alien. But each to their own.
On a 12 person server with the entire team dying at once, you would be having that spawn time most likely on either side, marine or aliens. On average assuming only ~ half the team died, your spawn time would go up by 1 cycle, or about 13 seconds.
<!--quoteo(post=2058964:date=Jan 10 2013, 02:55 PM:name=xDragon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (xDragon @ Jan 10 2013, 02:55 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2058964"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->On a 12 person server with the entire team dying at once, you would be having that spawn time most likely on either side, marine or aliens. On average assuming only ~ half the team died, your spawn time would go up by 1 cycle, or about 13 seconds.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not quite sure how it is you think that spawn times of over a minute, let alone over 20 seconds are justified in any way at all. Is the current system balanced? No. But is punishing players with long spawn times, on the team with the strategic focus of swarming, a good solution? No.
If you think it is, then your concept of good gameplay is baffling to me.
So if the entire team manages to all get killed at once.. You think that they should be rewarded with a sub 20 second respawn time? I dont see how that promotes good gameplay in any way either, just zerging as aliens. There is a huge difference between a team that relies on ambushing, positioning, and a slight numbers advantage to a team that can all respawn at once and roam in a massive wolf pack.
It goes back to the same age old problems from the beta where average alien players want the team adjusted to better match higher skilled marines, which in turn creates the exact problem you are seeing on pubs now - as players learn the basics the aliens become quite overpowered. There are tons of examples of changes that have been made to ease alien play to fix issues which were never a problem, just that people were overmatched and felt aliens were too weak. Now you have a team that is somewhat balanced at the lowest skill threshold but quite overpowered throughout the remaining skill levels except for all but the highest levels.
ok so I appreciate all the chat in here, some really good points. However; how many of you have actually played a few rounds of the mod to see the actual effects? All the TEAM#156 VEGAS servers are running the mod, please fill them up and play and then provide feedback.
<!--quoteo(post=2058975:date=Jan 10 2013, 03:12 PM:name=xDragon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (xDragon @ Jan 10 2013, 03:12 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2058975"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So if the entire team manages to all get killed at once.. You think that they should be rewarded with a sub 20 second respawn time? I dont see how that promotes good gameplay in any way either, just zerging as aliens. There is a huge difference between a team that relies on ambushing, positioning, and a slight numbers advantage to a team that can all respawn at once and roam in a massive wolf pack.
It goes back to the same age old problems from the beta where average alien players want the team adjusted to better match higher skilled marines, which in turn creates the exact problem you are seeing on pubs now - as players learn the basics the aliens become quite overpowered. There are tons of examples of changes that have been made to ease alien play to fix issues which were never a problem, just that people were overmatched and felt aliens were too weak. Now you have a team that is somewhat balanced at the lowest skill threshold but quite overpowered throughout the remaining skill levels except for all but the highest levels.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You're reasoning assumes an infinite pool of eggs for aliens to spawn in. In this hypothetical example where the entire alien team dies, and respawns again, only to rush again, they will run out of eggs very quickly, and be unable to maintain this pacing.
In this example, the problem of Zerging already has an inherent cost and a tangible drawback. You can mitigate this buy using shifts to spawn more eggs, but these are also not free. So there is always a trade off. If these trade offs, particularly the ones that punish players by not letting them play, are not effectively solving the problem, it is not logical to increase the effect of those trade offs in order to solve the problem. It is more reasonable to assume that there is another cause, and resolve that issue instead.
If there was no mechanic that already limited alien spawn size, then I would agree with you. But there is, and its a tactical advantage for Marines when they can Egg lock the alien team, preventing spawning all together. But now, with such a large window between spawn times, and a limit of 3 spawns per hive, I cannot see how marines would not always benefit from rushing the hive early game. They don't need to kill all the aliens, and they don't need to kill all the eggs. They just need to kill more than three aliens, and they've effectively reduced the number of potential combatants for over 30 seconds.
As well, once they're in the hive, if they aren't already egg locking you, it stands to reason that the alien team will be at a greater disadvantage if only three players can spawn at a time.
Does this require more intelligent thinking by the alien team? Yes. But is it enjoyable to sit in a spawn queue for long periods of time? No. And to boot, it seems a bit unreasonable when most of the alien play style is about harassing and pushing marines back.
Again, this becomes less severe when you get a second hive, but it doesn't change the fact that its a poor solution to a poorly understood problem. I fail to understand how your solution to aliens being over powered at higher skill levels is resolved by implementing a system designed to prevent players from playing the game. This is called poor design, and if you disagree, I'm afraid I have to question your capacity for rational thought.
fanaticThis post has been edited.Join Date: 2003-07-23Member: 18377Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
edited January 2013
<!--quoteo(post=2059002:date=Jan 10 2013, 11:10 PM:name=RedDragon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RedDragon @ Jan 10 2013, 11:10 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2059002"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I cannot see how marines would not always benefit from rushing the hive early game.
(...)
I'm afraid I have to question your capacity for rational thought.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Damn, you're right. I wonder how we ever survived for eight years playing NS1 with only spawning one alien at a time every seven seconds.
Now I understand why nobody plays Counter-Strike 1.6, Source or Global Offensive. In those terrible games you sometimes have to wait several minutes to respawn if you die!
I wish we could all have your capacity for rational thought, RedDragon.
Comments
As gliss said, this is because your egg is pre-selected as soon as the spawn timer starts. Dying as an egg will reset your timer. Whether or not this is intentional or a bug i have no idea (hope its a bug).
<!--quoteo(post=2058128:date=Jan 9 2013, 12:55 PM:name=MrChoke)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MrChoke @ Jan 9 2013, 12:55 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2058128"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So does this mean, the plan is to include the previous changes as well as these? Or are the previous changes and these just being tested with no guarantee of what will be in and what will not be?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It seems the spawn changes have been put in to test in isolation. It's very very important to get spawn rates right and i agree with this move. There is ofcourse no guarantee (just a high chance) that anything on the balance patch will make it into the official build, that's what the whole testing/feedback part is for. The only thing you'll get with reasonable certainty is an idea of the areas being looked at by Flayra, and the general direction changes are going in.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->2nd question, the item:
O Alien spawn wave now has a max size of 3, per hive.
What is the current max number of spawn waves?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The current max number per spawn wave is 100%. That is, max spawn wave = current number of dead aliens. *edit* the only players that won't spawn obviously are those being locked out by auto team balance, or those that don't have an egg / have not passed the minimum death time.
<!--quoteo(post=2058208:date=Jan 9 2013, 04:34 PM:name=MisterNubs)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MisterNubs @ Jan 9 2013, 04:34 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2058208"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->How does this non-existant scaling work for 9v9 or higher games?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It 'most likely' doesn't, but baby steps. This is finally going in a good direction after many many months of 100% spawn waves plaguing the game and hiding many other problems. Unlike most other changes, this one requires alot of testing and a reasonable ammount of actual data with alot of different player sized games. So if you see a server running the mod you should try it out and whatnot.
I don't think this feature is very intuitive and it really doesn't fit with the common understanding of how spawn waves work (for a player) unless you put an explanation in the game.
I tested it yesterday in a local game. Joined aliens with some bots, killed one, and then killed myself when his spawn timer was below 3. I entered the spawn queue and saw the timer counting down from 2 seconds, and then it reached zero and I didn't spawn. This happens to me constantly, you guys have really never noticed it?
Yup another great idea -
After dying the alien spawns in an available egg. He/she then starts evolving from the spermatoza embryo to a skulk. It would be like when the player is evolving with the percentage shown.
It would take 6 seconds to pop out as a skulk.
Marines of course can kill the egg with the proper reward.
Yup another great idea -
After dying the alien spawns in an available egg. He/she then starts evolving from the spermatoza embryo to a skulk. It would be like when the player is evolving with the percentage shown.
It would take 6 seconds to pop out as a skulk.
Marines of course can kill the egg with the proper reward.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think the spawning of aliens at the same time is a balance factor. e.g. if you try to cap a hive with the help of a shift theres a big difference between 6 aliens spawning over the course of 10 seconds and 6 aliens spawning at the same time.
It makes sense to me that each player should spawn into an available egg immediately upon death, if an egg is ready. Egg lock is almost an entirely separate issue and I don't think it should be addressed by forcing aliens to spawn in waves (because this inevitably leads to some people waiting a long time to spawn!). I like the above idea of a 6 second timer after death, if the egg is available. If marines are in your hive, you need to stop them from egg locking you, and there are perhaps other ways to approach this issue than we currently have...
Roo
O Aliens must be dead for <b>at least 6 seconds</b> before they can respawn (up from 3)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Cool. Who wants a Firefall beta key? I have plenty. You could probably get a full PVP round in before you spawn.
What do you propose? The aliens win too much. Should we not do anything then? Let's leave the game broken. They increased marine apwn time too from 7 to 9 seconds, did you forget this? I am not sure why they did this but the least they can do is increase aliens. And if aliens feel their increase more than marines, GOOD.
I would like to see the spawn wave time reduced in exchange for increasing the minimum time. Hell, the minimum time could be even longer than a single wave if need be. For example, 8 seconds minimum death time, 6 second waves, etc. Just throwing numbers out there, but the times don't have to be connected.
Hm overall the changes seem to just prolong the game. I wonder if it is related to cyst changes as a faster spawning game on both sides would mean marines can go and destroy cysts easily and now that the infestation retracts instantly, it would mean bad news if marines just kept popping out. Making the spawn time longer sort of prolongs the game allowing alien structures/cysts to grow when dead unless you are very good at survival. Still these changes are confusing and I do not understand some of them. Really wish I could find an east coast balance mod server to see how it plays.
Patch out tonight/tomorrow. :D
<!--quoteo(post=2058596:date=Jan 9 2013, 05:42 PM:name=MrChoke)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MrChoke @ Jan 9 2013, 05:42 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2058596"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What do you propose? The aliens win too much. Should we not do anything then? Let's leave the game broken. They increased marine apwn time too from 7 to 9 seconds, did you forget this? I am not sure why they did this but the least they can do is increase aliens. And if aliens feel their increase more than marines, GOOD.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I love how you jump through hoops like a circus monkey to make assumptions that make you look more and more like an idiot. The changes they did are in no way how you fix the spawn issues with Aliens. So long as you kill more than you die in engagements, you'll beat the spawn wave system. Only thing it does is prevent rapid egg loss in large games, and full respawns in small games. Enjoy your spawn wait.
nope thats wrong. eggs are not preselected. the problem is the minimum death timer (3 seconds). so when you enter the queue too late or you are at the end of the queue and not enough eggs are available, the UI will still show you the wave spawn timer but well, nothing happens. thats a problem of the UI not being smart enough though and its fixed for the next patch.
Is this directed at me? I am an idiot? Listen moron, I didn't propose ANY spawn changes. UWE did. Are they morons too? Personally I wasn't aware of any spawn issues on either side. They are trying to balance the game. Is that so difficult to deal with for you?
The problem is that these changes are poor fixes for the problem being addressed. As well, I'm not even sure they actually address a real problem, as all they've accomplished with these changes is a lengthier spawn time (you're going to start seeing more people waiting an average of 30+ seconds to spawn, have fun with that), as well as increased the already lengthy alien spawn timer.
Saying that marine spawn time increased from 7 seconds to 9 seconds means exceedingly little when these changes put the minimum spawn time for aliens at 18 seconds, and the maximum (if everyone on a 12 man team dies at once) at 50+ seconds. God help you if you're on that 12 man team and people die again after respawn, and you get knocked out of your place in queue (which happens all the time already, by the way).
These changes create more issues than they fix. So yes, you are jumping through hoops to rationalize them, and if you don't think you are, then yes, you are being an idiot.
For a 12 man team with unlimited eggs it would take 24 seconds for the final aliens to spawn if the entire team died at once.. on ONE hive. Two hives would cut that in half. If you dont think that spawn rate is completely ridiculous.. then you are completely clueless.
For comparison, with the current marine spawn rate (7s) it would take ~3.5 IPs to equal the spawn rate of 1 hive.
These changes will help address the zergy gameplay that NS2 offers, where many battles are not decided by which team wins the engagements, moreso by which one has the greater respawn capabilities.
For a 12 man team with unlimited eggs it would take 24 seconds for the final aliens to spawn if the entire team died at once.. on ONE hive. Two hives would cut that in half. If you dont think that spawn rate is completely ridiculous.. then you are completely clueless.
For comparison, with the current marine spawn rate (7s) it would take ~3.5 IPs to equal the spawn rate of 1 hive.
These changes will help address the zergy gameplay that NS2 offers, where many battles are not decided by which team wins the engagements, moreso by which one has the greater respawn capabilities.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The time before you entered the QUEUE to spawn was 3 seconds, now changed to 6. The time to spawn is 12 seconds. Also, you spend 1-2 seconds in an egg before you actually spawn. So actually its a minimum of 20 seconds to spawn.
20 seconds for the first wave. 12 more for the next three puts you at 32 seconds for half your team. 24 more seconds for the second half is 56 seconds. If anyone else dies, someone (not necessarily that person) waits another 12-18 seconds depending on how the queue sorts it out.
If when you say "these changes help address the zergy gameplay" you mean that aliens can now feel the effects of being egg locked, without actually being egg locked, then yes. That's exactly what this does.
Saying that marine spawn time increased from 7 seconds to 9 seconds means exceedingly little when these changes put the minimum spawn time for aliens at 18 seconds, and the maximum (if everyone on a 12 man team dies at once) at 50+ seconds. God help you if you're on that 12 man team and people die again after respawn, and you get knocked out of your place in queue (which happens all the time already, by the way).
These changes create more issues than they fix. So yes, you are jumping through hoops to rationalize them, and if you don't think you are, then yes, you are being an idiot.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
First of all, all I said was if they are going to increase marine spawn time, it is good they are increasing the alien ones as well. A nice common sense argument that apparently two people in this thread do not get. Does that sound like I am bending over backwards for it? NO.
Have I been bending over backwards trying to say "FIX SOMETHING" to stop marines from getting wiped so often. Yes, I have. Did I say spawn time changes are the answer, NO. UWE did. Do you think their goal is to make spawn times painfully long like what you and a "few" others imply? By what you say you are saying that "yes" UWE are idiots and YES, they want people to hate the game and stop playing. Now, who sounds like an idiot here. You or me?
Have I been bending over backwards trying to say "FIX SOMETHING" to stop marines from getting wiped so often. Yes, I have. Did I say spawn time changes are the answer, NO. UWE did. Do you think their goal is to make spawn times painfully long like what you and a "few" others imply? By what you say you are saying that "yes" UWE are idiots and YES, they want people to hate the game and stop playing. Now, who sounds like an idiot here. You or me?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The problem, Mr. Choke, is that they didn't just increase the alien spawn time, they also restricted alien spawn to 3 per hive. Now, rush a second hive, and perhaps this is a moot point. But regardless, the changes to the alien spawn system is rather more significant than the 2 second increase for the marines.
As well, I've made no comment suggesting anything regarding UWE's intent on the matter. I have no idea what they're thinking, and for all any of us know, these changes were a test, and they fully intend to remove them. Now, do I think these changes create more problems than they solve? Yes, and I've stated as much, whatever their intended effect. Also, I'm not "implying" anything with my assessment, I'm stating how the spawn system works. Unless of course I've completely missed something, but I don't think I have. Feel free to take a look at the code and see for yourself.
As for your final question. Seeing as I've suggested neither of those things, I'd say you look a bit foolish, yes. Feel free to disagree.
These changes would cause 12 dead aliens to take 52 seconds to respawn... on 1 hive... If you think that the current alien spawn rates are balanced I'm very sorry to say that your completely wrong. Unless your considering that the value of a skulk is intended to be about half of that as a vanilla marine, something needs to change regarding alien spawn rates.
These changes would cause 12 dead aliens to take 52 seconds to respawn... on 1 hive... If you think that the current alien spawn rates are balanced I'm very sorry to say that your completely wrong. Unless your considering that the value of a skulk is intended to be about half of that as a vanilla marine, something needs to change regarding alien spawn rates.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not entirely sure who you're addressing, but I assume you're talking to me.
I'm well aware that the current system isn't balanced, and I never even attempted to suggest that it was. What I did suggest was that these changes are the wrong solution to the problem.
Well, if the changes go into effect, I suppose we'll certainly find out wont we? That said. I don't think I'll enjoy a 1+ minute spawn time as an alien. But each to their own.
I'm not quite sure how it is you think that spawn times of over a minute, let alone over 20 seconds are justified in any way at all. Is the current system balanced? No. But is punishing players with long spawn times, on the team with the strategic focus of swarming, a good solution? No.
If you think it is, then your concept of good gameplay is baffling to me.
It goes back to the same age old problems from the beta where average alien players want the team adjusted to better match higher skilled marines, which in turn creates the exact problem you are seeing on pubs now - as players learn the basics the aliens become quite overpowered. There are tons of examples of changes that have been made to ease alien play to fix issues which were never a problem, just that people were overmatched and felt aliens were too weak. Now you have a team that is somewhat balanced at the lowest skill threshold but quite overpowered throughout the remaining skill levels except for all but the highest levels.
It goes back to the same age old problems from the beta where average alien players want the team adjusted to better match higher skilled marines, which in turn creates the exact problem you are seeing on pubs now - as players learn the basics the aliens become quite overpowered. There are tons of examples of changes that have been made to ease alien play to fix issues which were never a problem, just that people were overmatched and felt aliens were too weak. Now you have a team that is somewhat balanced at the lowest skill threshold but quite overpowered throughout the remaining skill levels except for all but the highest levels.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You're reasoning assumes an infinite pool of eggs for aliens to spawn in. In this hypothetical example where the entire alien team dies, and respawns again, only to rush again, they will run out of eggs very quickly, and be unable to maintain this pacing.
In this example, the problem of Zerging already has an inherent cost and a tangible drawback. You can mitigate this buy using shifts to spawn more eggs, but these are also not free. So there is always a trade off. If these trade offs, particularly the ones that punish players by not letting them play, are not effectively solving the problem, it is not logical to increase the effect of those trade offs in order to solve the problem. It is more reasonable to assume that there is another cause, and resolve that issue instead.
If there was no mechanic that already limited alien spawn size, then I would agree with you. But there is, and its a tactical advantage for Marines when they can Egg lock the alien team, preventing spawning all together. But now, with such a large window between spawn times, and a limit of 3 spawns per hive, I cannot see how marines would not always benefit from rushing the hive early game. They don't need to kill all the aliens, and they don't need to kill all the eggs. They just need to kill more than three aliens, and they've effectively reduced the number of potential combatants for over 30 seconds.
As well, once they're in the hive, if they aren't already egg locking you, it stands to reason that the alien team will be at a greater disadvantage if only three players can spawn at a time.
Does this require more intelligent thinking by the alien team? Yes. But is it enjoyable to sit in a spawn queue for long periods of time? No. And to boot, it seems a bit unreasonable when most of the alien play style is about harassing and pushing marines back.
Again, this becomes less severe when you get a second hive, but it doesn't change the fact that its a poor solution to a poorly understood problem. I fail to understand how your solution to aliens being over powered at higher skill levels is resolved by implementing a system designed to prevent players from playing the game. This is called poor design, and if you disagree, I'm afraid I have to question your capacity for rational thought.
(...)
I'm afraid I have to question your capacity for rational thought.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Damn, you're right. I wonder how we ever survived for eight years playing NS1 with only spawning one alien at a time every seven seconds.
Now I understand why nobody plays Counter-Strike 1.6, Source or Global Offensive. In those terrible games you sometimes have to wait several minutes to respawn if you die!
I wish we could all have your capacity for rational thought, RedDragon.