Mods, where cheats begin !
Kriptt
Join Date: 2013-01-09 Member: 178460Members
Join Date: 2013-01-09 Member: 178460Members
<div class="IPBDescription">or it can be call a visual advantage</div>Hi guys,
I new to Ns2 I spend almost 7x hours in 3 weeks on this game. I can't remember the last time I've hit a game like this. For me it is an awesome game with an event grater community.
I'm not a white player, in MMo I use macro/micro and mods as well. I cheat in almost every single player game because I find it fun to exploit NPC. When it comes the time of competitive play I never use aim bot or all those ######. I simply destroy my fun in multiplayer game. I've only see one aim bot in Ns2 since I started to play, I probably miss few of them thinking the man was simply good like hell. But hacks isn't my topic today.
Since I like mods the first I changed was the crosshair, probably like everyone of you. It was a great surprise that I was able to keep my new crosshair in an official server (white one). Then the minimap, once again my mod still working in a white server. Great I told it to all my friends and I enjoyed so much this "custom" customization. To me, a new crosshair and a colored minimap its simply a preference, it doesn't give you a real advantage and it feel right that I was able to play on official server with those mods. After this I get awesome mod for which replace the big ugly white circle around alien entities while the marine commander is scanning, then an other one adding some alpha to the minimap (which it is truly necessarily).
Here comes the problem, SKIN !, oh yeah you saw me coming whit that one. playing skulk feels great not only for their movement but also for their abilities to ambush. I subscribed to the most ugly alien skin and join the first white server available. It simply turn all alien in a big white spline. From that point no skulk was able to hide from me, I easily see any part of time since they are totally white in a dark environment. After few matches, I turn the mod off, I felt so bad trying to hide himself as a lerk in the cave, that I simply stop using this mod. Back to the game, I get "modded" back by a marine as a skulk. He was "magically" finding me in any corner that I was trying to hide. I told him to turn off this mod if he was using it. He answer me : It is a war, war use the best tool even they are ugly. I understand its point, in a competitive game you wan't to use any advantage that you have, specially if that one is public and "official" (since you can play with it on white server).
I felt broken, like a gorge rushed by a jet-pack shotgun marine :( I'm wondering how many of you could possibly use those mods, how do you feel about it ? for my part I don't want to use it, I want a fare fight but I don't feel I will able to play anymore under those terms. I means it is not cheating, no variables are modified but it certainly gives a great advantage. How do you see this issue from a design view ? If you wont Ns2 being a competitive, Esport game there are no place for mod and skin. I know there are some obvious mistake that can be fix with lite mods, like the minimap. But for now it is simply a big grey zone. Leave your thoughts, thanks for reading, you can flame my English I don't give a !@$@# but if some sentences doesn't make sense I can explain it to you.
Happy Gaming
I new to Ns2 I spend almost 7x hours in 3 weeks on this game. I can't remember the last time I've hit a game like this. For me it is an awesome game with an event grater community.
I'm not a white player, in MMo I use macro/micro and mods as well. I cheat in almost every single player game because I find it fun to exploit NPC. When it comes the time of competitive play I never use aim bot or all those ######. I simply destroy my fun in multiplayer game. I've only see one aim bot in Ns2 since I started to play, I probably miss few of them thinking the man was simply good like hell. But hacks isn't my topic today.
Since I like mods the first I changed was the crosshair, probably like everyone of you. It was a great surprise that I was able to keep my new crosshair in an official server (white one). Then the minimap, once again my mod still working in a white server. Great I told it to all my friends and I enjoyed so much this "custom" customization. To me, a new crosshair and a colored minimap its simply a preference, it doesn't give you a real advantage and it feel right that I was able to play on official server with those mods. After this I get awesome mod for which replace the big ugly white circle around alien entities while the marine commander is scanning, then an other one adding some alpha to the minimap (which it is truly necessarily).
Here comes the problem, SKIN !, oh yeah you saw me coming whit that one. playing skulk feels great not only for their movement but also for their abilities to ambush. I subscribed to the most ugly alien skin and join the first white server available. It simply turn all alien in a big white spline. From that point no skulk was able to hide from me, I easily see any part of time since they are totally white in a dark environment. After few matches, I turn the mod off, I felt so bad trying to hide himself as a lerk in the cave, that I simply stop using this mod. Back to the game, I get "modded" back by a marine as a skulk. He was "magically" finding me in any corner that I was trying to hide. I told him to turn off this mod if he was using it. He answer me : It is a war, war use the best tool even they are ugly. I understand its point, in a competitive game you wan't to use any advantage that you have, specially if that one is public and "official" (since you can play with it on white server).
I felt broken, like a gorge rushed by a jet-pack shotgun marine :( I'm wondering how many of you could possibly use those mods, how do you feel about it ? for my part I don't want to use it, I want a fare fight but I don't feel I will able to play anymore under those terms. I means it is not cheating, no variables are modified but it certainly gives a great advantage. How do you see this issue from a design view ? If you wont Ns2 being a competitive, Esport game there are no place for mod and skin. I know there are some obvious mistake that can be fix with lite mods, like the minimap. But for now it is simply a big grey zone. Leave your thoughts, thanks for reading, you can flame my English I don't give a !@$@# but if some sentences doesn't make sense I can explain it to you.
Happy Gaming
Comments
On public server, there is rarely any consistency checking, so this is an issue.
Changing models like that is cheating. It's sad that the default consistency checking is so poor that it cannot stop laymen cheating like this. The good news is that many of the regular veteran servers have enhanced consistency checking (very easy to do) that will stop this kind of cheating. It's still possible for more sophisticated hacks, but those are obviously much harder to come by and carry a risk of being VAC banned.
The best way to fix this would be to integrate enhanced consistency checks by default. Tournament and competitive servers already do this and UWE could probably do this in a few hours, if they wanted to.
People already complain about horrendously long loading times. Having every single server have these consistency checks would not only make everything in the workshop completely useless (aside from the crosshair mods), but it would pentuple the current loading times. Is it worth it? No, I don't think so. Having people spot skulks on ceilings means they have the game sense to look at the ceiling, which is good enough for me.
People already complain about horrendously long loading times. Having every single server have these consistency checks would not only make everything in the workshop completely useless (aside from the crosshair mods), but it would pentuple the current loading times. Is it worth it? No, I don't think so. Having people spot skulks on ceilings means they have the game sense to look at the ceiling, which is good enough for me.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So you are okay with people using brightly colored skulk models because you do not want the game loading process delayed?
What if the consistency checks could be spread out, only checking a percentage of the files on each map load (start with player models)? This way the impact would be lessened, and we can still play "as intended" rather than having the entire alien team looking like a bowl of breakfast cereal.
These 'mat hacks' ruin games; and people that make/use mods that turn the avatars into big headed, spiky, technicolor atrocities, are the reasons "we can't have nice things".
-Allow people to use mods that are clearly 'cheats'
-Devs locking down mods so they can't change skins
-Enhanced consistency checks with longer load times
Yeah none of these options is ideal, but if I had to choose I would choose #3. While it may be a nuisance, the load times only affect the load of the game and not the game itself. Seems like a small price to pay.
Ban anything except HUD-customization for every other server.
What if the consistency checks could be spread out, only checking a percentage of the files on each map load (start with player models)? This way the impact would be lessened, and we can still play "as intended" rather than having the entire alien team looking like a bowl of breakfast cereal.
These 'mat hacks' ruin games; and people that make/use mods that turn the avatars into big headed, spiky, technicolor atrocities, are the reasons "we can't have nice things".<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I am okay with brightly colored skulk models because it is impossible for the game to tell the difference between Blood Skulk model (which looks badass) and neon purple skulk model. In a competitive game, this is more of an issue which I agree- you should filter them all. In a public game- who cares? Really- If marines win a match, it affects absolutely nothing in the long run. There is zero money on the line, there is no praises to be gained- it's purely for fun. Let them have their skins, because in return, we can have really really cool mods (cute gorge eye mod, hello kitty pink rifle mod- you can't consistency check the neon ones and leave in the rest- it's ALL OR NOTHING).
One of the biggest things about NS2 is the modability. They have a direct link to the workshop which allows you to customize the game to no end. Why should UWE suddenly say "You know what? Some people are using neon skulk skins. Every single mod ever made is now going to be consistency checked away" because of a few bad apples?
I would take the approach UWE is already taking- kill the neon models from the workshop. Done. Motivated people will find the abusive models, but the majority of the people will not find it.
And a lot of you are greatly underestimating the time it takes to connect to a consistency check server. You're literally looking at five minutes per map change. Do you think it's really worth it for the sake of a dumpster pub server?
The majority of the player base, that does not play in a rigidly structured competitive environment cares.
Believe it or not, some people only play on pubs. These people deserve a fair game.
You're not taking into account the majority of people who use perfectly legitimate and cool looking modifications and cosmetic alterations.
You'd be pushing away the <b>MAJORITY</b> just because of the minority and that just doesn't make any sense from a business stand point.
You're not taking into account the majority of people who use perfectly legitimate and cool looking modifications and cosmetic alterations.
You'd be pushing away the <b>MAJORITY</b> just because of the minority and that just doesn't make any sense from a business stand point.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Show me where I said that modding should not be allowed and I will comment further.
-Allow people to use mods that are clearly 'cheats'
-Devs locking down mods so they can't change skins
-Enhanced consistency checks with longer load times
Yeah none of these options is ideal, but if I had to choose I would choose #3. While it may be a nuisance, the load times only affect the load of the game and not the game itself. Seems like a small price to pay.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Just put up extended Consistency checking on my competitive server. To test it I personally downloaded the mod "down with this sort of thing" and joined my server. I went marine and had a friend join aliens. I asked him to meet me up somewhere to see if he was indeed purple with white spots. He was; this mod made it through extended consistency checks. We turned the lights out in my base to see if I could view him in the dark. Yep... sure could the aliens glow. The purpose of creating this mod was to gain attention that the current consistency checks do not check for this sort of thing and there are none on the steam workshop either.
Believe it or not, some people only play on pubs. These people deserve a fair game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Definatly right !
You installed consistency checking incorrectly. No mods besides crosshair mods are allowed on correctly installed consistency checked servers. That means no hello kitty rifle mod. No blood skulk mod. No neon glowing skulk mod. No nothing.
You guys seem to think that it's "Consistency checking = No neon skulk mod". This is only half true. It means No neon skulk mod + No any other mod at all. And this is detrimental to the modding scene which spark thrives on.
All it would serve to do is make you worse at competitive gaming and better at pub stomping, people who feel good because they can stomp pubs should be banned whether they use mods to do it or not. /sarcasm
But there has to be a way to fix that on UWE's end (make it so that it does not force the client to DL all those files).
People already complain about horrendously long loading times. Having every single server have these consistency checks would not only make everything in the workshop completely useless (aside from the crosshair mods), but it would pentuple the current loading times. Is it worth it? No, I don't think so. Having people spot skulks on ceilings means they have the game sense to look at the ceiling, which is good enough for me.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is only a problem because of how mods work. The servers force even server-side-only mods to be downloaded for a client to play. If this was all just on by default and installed with the game on both server and client, then it wouldn't really be any longer to join.
UWE can do this, modders/admins can't. There are also some consistency checking which can result in alright load times, but are not as comprehensive. I'll link tempest this post later and he can probably comment on it more accurately since he owns half of the NA servers.
You've installed them incorrectly then. Which mod did you use? I'm assuming you are talking about some workshop consistency checking mod?
Ya... Try it out for yourself. It works.
Changing models like that is cheating. It's sad that the default consistency checking is so poor that it cannot stop laymen cheating like this. The good news is that many of the regular veteran servers have enhanced consistency checking (very easy to do) that will stop this kind of cheating. It's still possible for more sophisticated hacks, but those are obviously much harder to come by and carry a risk of being VAC banned.
The best way to fix this would be to integrate enhanced consistency checks by default. Tournament and competitive servers already do this and UWE could probably do this in a few hours, if they wanted to.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Cheating is relative. If servers want to stop this kind of thing, they can do it fairly easily. I'm inclined to say it's perfectly fine if people want to do this and servers implicitly support it.
One way or another, if this kind of thing isn't stopped, then the devs will lock down skin mods, which will only detract from the ability to mod the game.
My point is it should be on by default, especially for white "non-modded" servers. If servers want to allow custom mods with the acceptance that it will allow cheats like this and others (disabling ambient sound, deleting cinematics which block your view -- rupture, gorge spit, etc) then they are free to do so. It's bad that inexperienced players are thrown into a den of cheating like this.
These model cheats are not the only easy way to cheat with default consistency checking. They don't check the sound files, imagine what kind of beacon noise you could attach to a skulk's walking footsteps. How big of an advantage do you think that would be? How about replacing the marine's walk footsteps with their sprint footsteps. Do you think that would help you unfairly?
This is why this crap needs to be squashed by default. Far too many files left vulnerable for laymen to delete and cheat.
One way or another, if this kind of thing isn't stopped, then the devs will lock down skin mods, which will only detract from the ability to mod the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It would have to be the other way around. You'd have to allow server operators (or UWE) to whitelist mods like the orange phase gates or cute gorge eyes.
If you tried to blacklist a mod that turned skulks into 100% green #0000, then someone would just make a mod with a skulk that is green #0001.
I think 95% of people would not play on these servers when they knew that they glow bright green for other players. The thing is that most people trust that this kind of obvious cheating is forbidden by default.
Just like you dont have to join "aimbot free" servers in BF3 because aimbots are allowed by default.
sv_pure 1 uses a config file, much like NS2 consistency checking. The example config allows modding player models, so it's completely useless out of the box. Valve themselves however use sv_pure 2 on their servers, which will check everything it possibly can. Typing sv_pure in the console while connected will print the mode as well as the config (when it applies). Unfortunately there's no such command in NS2 that I know of so even if you're on a server with extended consistency check there's no way to know.
Just like you dont have to join "aimbot free" servers in BF3 because aimbots are allowed by default.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Exactly. Who would play on servers where they knew they would be neon green?
As another way to reduce the impact, could they make any mods being used known to all other players on the server? I think if everyone could tell you were using the "make enemy green" mod, then no one wod use it. Attrition through public shaming.
Combine this with a votekick feature and the problem is solved. More or less.
Political correctness NAZI strikes again. He meant not a white players as he's green (rookie).