<!--quoteo(post=2055971:date=Jan 4 2013, 10:22 AM:name=Zek)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Zek @ Jan 4 2013, 10:22 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2055971"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It's not just for competitive players, they even tweeted about this most recent set of changes. The changes will obviously affect the public scene if they go through so there should be discussion about them in all groups. Even if a particular marine nerf is ideal for the long term, it might not be wise to make it while the marines are currently the weaker team in public play.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Enough evidence for you yet Zek on why Gliss wanted a meaning discussion in a subforum with experienced players? The new posts that pop up daily by some guy with 3 hours playtime who knows how to perfectly balance this game already make me want to vomit and should have been your first clue.
You ever watch 8-yr old kids play soccer? They all just huddle around the ball, and occasionally get lucky here or there. Now imagine trying to learn anything from watching that soccer game. And then imagine that 8-yr old kid comes up to you and starts telling you how he thinks the ball is too small and too hard to kick. Actually there should be 2 soccer balls. And the goals should really be bigger. And why can't he use his hands? Jeez who developed this game?!?! I can't believe I bought soccer during the christmas sale.
<!--quoteo(post=2057870:date=Jan 8 2013, 08:59 AM:name=PaLaGi)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (PaLaGi @ Jan 8 2013, 08:59 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2057870"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Enough evidence for you yet Zek on why Gliss wanted a meaning discussion in a subforum with experienced players? The new posts that pop up daily by some guy with 3 hours playtime who knows how to perfectly balance this game already make me want to vomit and should have been your first clue.
You ever watch 8-yr old kids play soccer? They all just huddle around the ball, and occasionally get lucky here or there. Now imagine trying to learn anything from watching that soccer game. And then imagine that 8-yr old kid comes up to you and starts telling you how he thinks the ball is too small and too hard to kick. Actually there should be 2 soccer balls. And the goals should really be bigger. And why can't he use his hands? Jeez who developed this game?!?! I can't believe I bought soccer during the christmas sale.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> If a post is clearly ill-informed then just ignore it, it's still no reason to avoid a public discussion.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->O Cysts now start with 25 health (down from 100) O Increased minimum distance that Cysts can be placed near other Cysts (now 6 meters up from 2 meters) O When Cyst is destroyed, it's infestation dies instantly (we will improve effect if we keep this)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Just reading these suggested changes gave me a serious case of diarrhea.
You're only one step away from completely abolishing cysts from the game with these changes. The next one is just removing them.
I would just like to point out to all the totally retarded people who are still taking: O Increased <b>minimum</b> distance that Cysts can be placed near other Cysts (now 6 meters up from 2 meters) To mean: O O Increased <b>maximum</b> distance that Cysts can be placed near other Cysts (now 6 meters up from 2 meters)
<!--quoteo(post=2057926:date=Jan 8 2013, 08:29 AM:name=MisterNubs)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MisterNubs @ Jan 8 2013, 08:29 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2057926"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Just reading these suggested changes gave me a serious case of diarrhea.
You're only one step away from completely abolishing cysts from the game with these changes. The next one is just removing them.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hopefully they do remove them. Bring back Gorge builders. FPS problems solved. More strategy induced gameplay. Everybody wins.
<!--quoteo(post=2057131:date=Jan 6 2013, 04:58 PM:name=SupaDupaNoodle)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SupaDupaNoodle @ Jan 6 2013, 04:58 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2057131"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I would consider myself a "professional" public player. I've had plenty of experience with the game now and I am seeing a disturbing trend with Aliens still winning the majority of games if they have the vaguest of clues as to what to do. I usually play in public servers (UWE official) and the pub servers that clans run. The teams usually consist of 1-2 newbies at any given time, usually evenly spread between the two sides. In both types of server it's the same. Aliens follow a very simple strategy.
Game begins: no one wants to be Alien comm so someone with some experience hops in.
Standing orders: 1. harass the marines constantly at spawn. When they are dead, eat their IPs till they spawn back. If marine spawns back, kill him and resume IP eatage. If you die, just group up at Hive and rush straight back there again. Just hold down mouse1, move the mouse in the general direction of the marines, and keep tapping spacebar -- marines can't touch you. (NO RES FOR MINES/still researching)
2. By now any stray marines would also fall back to defend main base. One or two skulks can sneak to whatever res towers they have and munch them down before any marine waddles his way back up there after securing base.
3. While this is going on we should have 3-4 RTs at least, plus the first upgrade. Pull back a skulk or two to defend second hive, the rest can keep harassing M-spawn or get any marine RTs.
4. By 11 mins someone should be ready with onos. Gorge goes with him to take out a secondary base the marines may have. If they phase there, counter-attack on M-spawn power node.
5. Get a few more res nodes and push secondary base with 2-3 onos, 1-2 gorge. Lerk harass is also really effective on powernodes. Fades can be impossible to kill if the guy being fade knows how to use it.
6. Time to get third hive and remaining few upgrades. Get some crags and whips near M-spawn and get the team to rush in and go for the power node. Pwnt. Latest is 25mins, usually with 2 decent alien soldiers 20mins victory is possible.
In short, constant alien pressure ensures victory.
The only times this doesn't work is if the aliens are totally uncoordinated and don't listen to the commander or don't defend the second hive. But in most games I command/play in as alien there's no need to defend second hive because the marines are too busy being spawn-rushed for the first 10mins. Seriously, a good marine team can be destroyed by a bunch of inept aliens.
The key problem is not fade health or marine armor cost, or how fast infestation disappears. ALIENS SPAWN TOO FAST. Marines are being wiped out because usually in a 3 skulks vs. 4 marines engagement, 3 marines will die (IN PUBS, you know, where most people play). One marine will get the 3 skulks, but another skulk that just spawned back will finish off that (now low health) marine and will be able to start eating the IPs/power node before any more marines spawn and by then anyway more skulks can arrive.
Skulk harass is getting unbearable, and the solution is what? Make marine spawn take longer!? AND make armor more expensive!? Wow. Public marines need more armor. Why would you even contemplate these changes? And no, infestation receding instantly is silly, and in no way compensates for the marine spawn-nerf. Even if you go for mines first, by the time the base is secure, the aliens have spread cysts all over the map, and can immediately rush to wherever you try to expand to.
Seriously, where does UWE get their ideas for balance changes from? If you make this game unplayable for newbies and even experienced public players, the game is going to get a bad reputation and people will stop playing. Yeah, yeah, they've already paid the money and it's no loss to you if they quit after buying, but they are going to tell all their friends the game's unplayable or just not mention the game to anyone at all, and go back to something else.
There's a bit of elitist snobbery on these boards, with people saying stuff like "Oh if they don't like it, they should just get out of NS2", the thing is, economics will punish any game whose developers take on that attitude -- I'm not saying UWE is like that, but you guys who profess to love this game seem pretty short-sighted.
Why was CS so popular? Why is it still one of the top-10 played games on Steam? Because if you put in effort to learn how to play, you are rewarded with success in the game, whichever team you are on. As I get more experience in this game, I find it becomes harder to play on one side, and these constant balance changes, lurching from one extreme to the other, really is going to bring the whole thing crashing down.
I still maintain that release build balance with a buff for fade health, and the movement of power nodes in Docking was all that we needed. Why can't the "elites" playing competitively play a modded version, and you guys just leave us public players alone? Steam sales with a 60% discount may be encouraging, but how many of those new players actually stick around? Reading changelogs and proposed changes it seems increasingly clear that the devs are doggedly focused on tinkering with trivialities and managing the decline of a game that had so much potential. Shame.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I'm +1 this post because he basically outlined every pub game I've played. He basically hits the nail on the head.
<!--quoteo(post=2057463:date=Jan 7 2013, 06:39 PM:name=Zek)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Zek @ Jan 7 2013, 06:39 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2057463"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It's just not how video games work. You're supposed to be rewarded for success and punished for failure(if only through the absence of a reward). That's what makes it fun when you do well. Getting a bonus for dying turns the whole incentive structure on its head and creates all sorts of abuse.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Are you talking about all video games in general? Somehow i doubt that ;) The goal of a game is mainly to have a fun competition, video games often end up completely ignoring the "competitive" part in favor of delivering a fun experience for everybody. If losing is no fun and only winning is fun, how long do you think people gonna play that game? That's why a good game gives incentive to keep on playing even when losing. Or to use an very popular example: Rubber-band AI in racing games.
I also would argue that it's not getting a "bonus for dying" but rather an compensation for losing so the competition so it won't steamroll you for the remainder of the round. Having no equalizing mechanics only means that rounds turn into one sided affairs, where the winning side snowballs it's odds to unbeatable high levels, while the losing side has to sit it out and wait for the inevitable end. Dying in NS is already a punishment on several more levels (at least one less level with res gain while dead) compared to other games.
Or in short: Punishing the losing side too hard removes all options and incentives for comebacks. And NS has always been about comebacks, turning the tide of the round even after 50 minutes of playing and being stuck on one base. That's what keeps rounds engaging, that's what keeps people playing for nearly 2 hours even after losing expansions several times. That's what stops people from rage-quitting 5 minutes into the round...
Imho as of right now NS2 fails horribly on this compared to NS1. In NS2 the outcome of a round can usually be predicted well in advanced, because the odds for the winning team are snowballing at an much higher rate compared to NS1. But nobody likes playing additional 20 minutes of an round that's already lost because you suffered a huge setback the first 5 minutes in that you can't recover from in time to keep up with the enemy. In that case the "winning side" should get a boost to capitalize on an early win to finish the round as fast as possible, instead of drawing out an already lost round, but that would be a whole other can of worms.
Having said all that: I think we should wait and see how "res during dead" turns out before thinking further, i believe that change alone will have a pretty big impact overall not just on new players.
<!--quoteo(post=2057131:date=Jan 6 2013, 07:58 PM:name=SupaDupaNoodle)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SupaDupaNoodle @ Jan 6 2013, 07:58 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2057131"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Game begins: no one wants to be Alien comm so someone with some experience hops in.
Standing orders: 1. harass the marines constantly at spawn. When they are dead, eat their IPs till they spawn back. If marine spawns back, kill him and resume IP eatage. If you die, just group up at Hive and rush straight back there again. Just hold down mouse1, move the mouse in the general direction of the marines, and keep tapping spacebar -- marines can't touch you. (NO RES FOR MINES/still researching)
2. By now any stray marines would also fall back to defend main base. One or two skulks can sneak to whatever res towers they have and munch them down before any marine waddles his way back up there after securing base.
3. While this is going on we should have 3-4 RTs at least, plus the first upgrade. Pull back a skulk or two to defend second hive, the rest can keep harassing M-spawn or get any marine RTs.
4. By 11 mins someone should be ready with onos. Gorge goes with him to take out a secondary base the marines may have. If they phase there, counter-attack on M-spawn power node.
5. Get a few more res nodes and push secondary base with 2-3 onos, 1-2 gorge. Lerk harass is also really effective on powernodes. Fades can be impossible to kill if the guy being fade knows how to use it.
6. Time to get third hive and remaining few upgrades. Get some crags and whips near M-spawn and get the team to rush in and go for the power node. Pwnt. Latest is 25mins, usually with 2 decent alien soldiers 20mins victory is possible.
In short, constant alien pressure ensures victory.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I played the balance mod. I like the cyst "MINIMUM" distance restriction. It is the only change in the mod that is a step closer to fixing this game, the rest most likely hurts it or doesn't change balance. I agree with EVERYTHING 'SupaDupaNoodle' said in his post on what usually happens. I see it time and time again too. Aliens can relenteslly hit marines until they get Onos and then game over. The game is VERY unbalanced right now. And the ratio of aleins winning is increasing each day it seems. I can barely play a game any more where the marines win unless the alien team has mostly new players. I have said it before and I will say it again. UWE is going lose "word of mouth" support of this game and a lot revenue each day this balance problem goes on. If the balance mod becomes what is released as build 236, then I may have to give up on the game until UWE does something right. I am sure the "best" solution is complicated and a ways off. But small changes can be made and meet a Jan 15th release date and make it better than what we have. This current mod is not better.
Personally, I have 5 friends wanting to buy the game and play and I told them DON'T. Not until they fix the game. I wonder how many other people are saying "negative" things about the game and causing people to not buy.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->O Marine respawn time increased from 7 to 9 O Alien spawn wave now has a max size of 3, per hive. O Aliens must be dead for at least 6 seconds before they can respawn (up from 3)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
For that last one, PLEASE fix it so that it doesn't show the countdown until you're eligible to spawn in that wave(or make it show the real adjusted countdown). So frustrating to watch it say "3...2...1...Spawning now...just kidding".
Ok, I am new to the balance process that is taking place. Now, on the balance mod site, gone are all of the previous changes except the marine spawn time increase. And these are there instead:
O Marine respawn time increased from 7 to 9 O Alien spawn wave now has a max size of 3, per hive. O Aliens must be dead for at least 6 seconds before they can respawn (up from 3)
So does this mean, the plan is to include the previous changes as well as these? Or are the previous changes and these just being tested with no guarantee of what will be in and what will not be?
2nd question, the item: O Alien spawn wave now has a max size of 3, per hive.
<!--quoteo(post=2058128:date=Jan 8 2013, 08:55 PM:name=MrChoke)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MrChoke @ Jan 8 2013, 08:55 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2058128"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Ok, I am new to the balance process that is taking place. Now, on the balance mod site, gone are all of the previous changes except the marine spawn time increase. And these are there instead:
O Marine respawn time increased from 7 to 9 O Alien spawn wave now has a max size of 3, per hive. O Aliens must be dead for at least 6 seconds before they can respawn (up from 3)
So does this mean, the plan is to include the previous changes as well as these? Or are the previous changes and these just being tested with no guarantee of what will be in and what will not be?
2nd question, the item: O Alien spawn wave now has a max size of 3, per hive.
What is the current max number of spawn waves?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
We don't know whats gonna happen till Jan 15. You never know what you're gonna get on update-day.
<!--quoteo(post=2056169:date=Jan 4 2013, 01:56 PM:name=rhombus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (rhombus @ Jan 4 2013, 01:56 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2056169"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->By having the thread in the competitive section of the forums you really made it inaccessible to nearly everyone. Good job.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--quoteo(post=2058029:date=Jan 8 2013, 01:53 PM:name=MrChoke)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MrChoke @ Jan 8 2013, 01:53 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2058029"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If the balance mod becomes what is released as build 236, then I may have to give up on the game until UWE does something right.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> this is the whole point of the balance mod, to test changes individually and their merit in a controlled setting. obviously the alien buffs won't go into a full patch alone, that's why they're <i>in the balance mod</i>.
posts like this just dilute the discussion and are incredibly unhelpful to actually understanding the impact of each change. this thread is evidence enough of that, really, so I'm not interested in discussing the point and derailing any further.
<!--quoteo(post=2058101:date=Jan 8 2013, 04:54 PM:name=Zek)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Zek @ Jan 8 2013, 04:54 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2058101"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->For that last one, PLEASE fix it so that it doesn't show the countdown until you're eligible to spawn in that wave(or make it show the real adjusted countdown). So frustrating to watch it say "3...2...1...Spawning now...just kidding".<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> this occurs when you're spawning but your egg is killed, there's not really any way around that.
I think longer respawn times have the potential to reward more coordinated attacks coming from aliens. but it may just come down to lapses of attention or positioning rather than actual strategy. I also don't know what the current spawn wave limit is. however, the egg spawning system still doesn't work as there is no way to choose which hive you want to spawn. all of these changes are pointless if the basic mechanic doesn't work in the first place. this is almost exactly mirroring the balance changes for Shift.
<!--quoteo(post=2058128:date=Jan 9 2013, 02:55 AM:name=MrChoke)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MrChoke @ Jan 9 2013, 02:55 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2058128"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->2nd question, the item: O Alien spawn wave now has a max size of 3, per hive.
What is the current max number of spawn waves?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
4, which makes it really easy for aliens to counter any potential marine rush as long as they have eggs. This change brings it a bit more in lines with "marines can't all respawn at once either, unless they cash in on plenty of expensive IPs".
<!--quoteo(post=2058131:date=Jan 8 2013, 08:58 PM:name=SupaDupaNoodle)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SupaDupaNoodle @ Jan 8 2013, 08:58 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2058131"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->We don't know whats gonna happen till Jan 15. You never know what you're gonna get on update-day.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is very good to know. I had misunderstood the balance mod a bit I guess. If the idea is to test anything and see how they work, that is great. But no commitments at all to any part of it making a final build is key to understanding it.
I will see if I can find a server again with balance mod running and try these new changes out. I defintiely like them better than the previous set. I wish more servers had the mod.
<!--quoteo(post=2058133:date=Jan 8 2013, 10:03 PM:name=Gliss)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gliss @ Jan 8 2013, 10:03 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2058133"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->this is the whole point of the balance mod, to test changes individually and their merit in a controlled setting. obviously the alien buffs won't go into a full patch alone, that's why they're <i>in the balance mod</i>.
posts like this just dilute the discussion and are incredibly unhelpful to actually understanding the impact of each change. this thread is evidence enough of that, really, so I'm not interested in discussing the point and derailing any further.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Where are you getting this from? The purpose of the balance mod is to sanity-check balance changes in advance of release so we don't get a repeat of 229. Certainly they can use it to focus on a subset of changes(like this version that focuses just on spawn rates for both teams), but what you're saying is that when the balance mod is unbalanced we should always assume that they have a magic bullet that will slip in to fix it when the patch goes live. Untested balance changes going live is exactly what the balance mod was created to prevent.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->this occurs when you're spawning but your egg is killed, there's not really any way around that.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> No, it happens every time you miss the window for the next spawn wave because of the 3 second limit. You see what's left of the countdown as if you're going to spawn, and then you don't spawn.
<!--quoteo(post=2058154:date=Jan 8 2013, 10:00 PM:name=Zek)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Zek @ Jan 8 2013, 10:00 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2058154"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Where are you getting this from? The purpose of the balance mod is to sanity-check balance changes in advance of release so we don't get a repeat of 229. Certainly they can use it to focus on a subset of changes(like this version that focuses just on spawn rates for both teams), but what you're saying is that when the balance mod is unbalanced we should always assume that they have a magic bullet that will slip in to fix it when the patch goes live. Untested balance changes going live is exactly what the balance mod was created to prevent.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
But the whole point is that a very tiny proportion of the community even knows what a modded server is, let alone the significance of the "balance mod" servers... and so there will be a selection bias in the population that takes part in testing out the balance mod. You then get a skewed sample of above-average players -- in terms of experience and game-playing mentality -- providing a distorted set of game statistics on the balance-mod servers. Then when the patch/build goes live all hell breaks loose in "the wild," and you end up with a lot of public players totally confused about what the hell just happened.
We really need to get some sort of stability in terms of balance ASAP, and then just leave us alone to play and get better, and absorb and integrate newbies into the community at a reasonable rate. For testing later changes, I suggest using the UWE official servers: rename half of them with a "BETA" prefix since that is what most people will understand (versus "balance mod"). Then let the market decide: if you find these "BETA" servers have a higher participation rate than the regular servers, and a 50-50 (or near enough) win-rate, the changes are popular and safe to be released as the next build.
But above all else these balance changes need to stop being so frequent. We need to steady this ship and then let it sail in peace for a few months before making any more changes to balance. What I think we can all agree on is that the game, once stable in terms of balance, needs more content -- read: maps -- desperately!
<!--quoteo(post=2058159:date=Jan 8 2013, 11:18 PM:name=SupaDupaNoodle)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SupaDupaNoodle @ Jan 8 2013, 11:18 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2058159"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->But the whole point is that a very tiny proportion of the community even knows what a modded server is, let alone the significance of the "balance mod" servers... and so there will be a selection bias in the population that takes part in testing out the balance mod. You then get a skewed sample of above-average players -- in terms of experience and game-playing mentality -- providing a distorted set of game statistics on the balance-mod servers. Then when the patch/build goes live all hell breaks loose in "the wild," and you end up with a lot of public players totally confused about what the hell just happened.
We really need to get some sort of stability in terms of balance ASAP, and then just leave us alone to play and get better, and absorb and integrate newbies into the community at a reasonable rate. For testing later changes, I suggest using the UWE official servers: rename half of them with a "BETA" prefix since that is what most people will understand (versus "balance mod"). Then let the market decide: if you find these "BETA" servers have a higher participation rate than the regular servers, and a 50-50 (or near enough) win-rate, the changes are popular and safe to be released as the next build.
But above all else these balance changes need to stop being so frequent. We need to steady this ship and then let it sail in peace for a few months before making any more changes to balance. What I think we can all agree on is that the game, once stable in terms of balance, needs more content -- read: maps -- desperately!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not sure what you mean by "so frequent" - the last significant balance patch was 232, a month and a half ago. In any case there is no way to know with 100% certainty what balance will look like after months with a build other than to just release it. Most pub players are not bothered by subtle shifts in balance once every few weeks. The balance mod is just a way to find out out which changes would definitely be a mistake if they went live, like 229's regen changes.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->O Alien spawn wave now has a max size of 3, per hive.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
How long is the alien spawn timer still? Is it still so buggy that you can wait up to nearly a minute to respawn? How does this non-existant scaling work for 9v9 or higher games?
How about we remove nanoshield and give the marine commander a nanobot ability that auto builds structures for 5 res.
<!--quoteo(post=2058159:date=Jan 9 2013, 12:18 AM:name=SupaDupaNoodle)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SupaDupaNoodle @ Jan 9 2013, 12:18 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2058159"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->But above all else these balance changes need to stop being so frequent. We need to steady this ship and then let it sail in peace for a few months before making any more changes to balance.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Months?!
First off I agree with Zek, as it stands we haven't had a balance patch in over a month. Secondly, we need better balance now, not a few months from now. If the win/loss ratio was less than +/- 5% then I could see taking more time. However, given the influx of new players, if you want to KEEP them playing (and telling their friends to join them) you need a game that is balanced and fun to play now - not in the summer.
i have some disagreement with some of the repliers here. not going to quote as there is quite some of them. noobs arent gonna care much about winning or losing if they are having fun. i mean, if it is fun just to lose, then it is definitely fun to stay in the game. i cant see anyone hate winning even for trolls. the whole point is how to make the game fun. as noobs gonna spent most of their time losing in a game with such a steep learning curve anyway. but currently, the game is not fun, for most of us, or even you.
still the list is either too trivial or too radical. and when i read about the facebook post on how they are gonna tweak the score so that healing and welding or whatever get scored, i am so surprised. even for those who ###### upon scores or K:D ratios, it will soon become boring for most. it is not even appealing to regulars who get used to the fact that having a high score/K:D is not necessarily good for the team. there are definitely some priority issues. the focus is missing.
First off I agree with Zek, as it stands we haven't had a balance patch in over a month. Secondly, we need better balance now, not a few months from now. If the win/loss ratio was less than +/- 5% then I could see taking more time. However, given the influx of new players, if you want to KEEP them playing (and telling their friends to join them) you need a game that is balanced and fun to play now - not in the summer.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=2058222:date=Jan 9 2013, 01:30 AM:name=Lofung)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Lofung @ Jan 9 2013, 01:30 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2058222"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->i have some disagreement with some of the repliers here. not going to quote as there is quite some of them. noobs arent gonna care much about winning or losing if they are having fun. i mean, if it is fun just to lose, then it is definitely fun to stay in the game. i cant see anyone hate winning even for trolls. the whole point is how to make the game fun. as noobs gonna spent most of their time losing in a game with such a steep learning curve anyway. but currently, the game is not fun, for most of us, or even you.
still the list is either too trivial or too radical. and when i read about the facebook post on how they are gonna tweak the score so that healing and welding or whatever get scored, i am so surprised. even for those who ###### upon scores or K:D ratios, it will soon become boring for most. it is not even appealing to regulars who get used to the fact that having a high score/K:D is not necessarily good for the team. there are definitely some priority issues. the focus is missing.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree that having fun is always the ultimate goal. What I have seen many times in a game is a one-sided blowout where the marines get wiped with almost no chance of doing anything. Of course having some games end like this is fine. Having a lot of games end like this, that is not fine, nor is it fun. The chances of a game ending this way is much higher for a noob marine team and YES, they need to L2P to a point. But aliens need to L2P too right? How often do you see the marines wipe the aliens in 2 minutes? Wash, rinse and repeat this so-common lose and it gets boring because you know your marine team is going to lose, badly.
For that last one, PLEASE fix it so that it doesn't show the countdown until you're eligible to spawn in that wave(or make it show the real adjusted countdown). So frustrating to watch it say "3...2...1...Spawning now...just kidding".<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In Russia the game trolls you. As already said it's the spawn window. Why even have a spawn wave window? The little teamwork it tries to make are way more offset by the possible horrible spawn times which makes the game worse for many players. Why always try to get old broken game conventions to work?
<!--quoteo(post=2058357:date=Jan 9 2013, 09:02 AM:name=MrChoke)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MrChoke @ Jan 9 2013, 09:02 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2058357"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->How often do you see the marines wipe the aliens in 2 minutes? Wash, rinse and repeat this so-common lose and it gets boring because you know your marine team is going to lose, badly.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
As often as you can get a marine team to actually listen to the comm, stick together, and head to the starting hive.
<!--quoteo(post=2058222:date=Jan 9 2013, 07:30 AM:name=Lofung)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Lofung @ Jan 9 2013, 07:30 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2058222"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->i have some disagreement with some of the repliers here. not going to quote as there is quite some of them. noobs arent gonna care much about winning or losing if they are having fun. i mean, if it is fun just to lose, then it is definitely fun to stay in the game. i cant see anyone hate winning even for trolls. the whole point is how to make the game fun. as noobs gonna spent most of their time losing in a game with such a steep learning curve anyway. but currently, the game is not fun, for most of us, or even you.
still the list is either too trivial or too radical. and when i read about the facebook post on how they are gonna tweak the score so that healing and welding or whatever get scored, i am so surprised. even for those who ###### upon scores or K:D ratios, it will soon become boring for most. it is not even appealing to regulars who get used to the fact that having a high score/K:D is not necessarily good for the team. there are definitely some priority issues. the focus is missing.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Agree on the first part, winning/loosing is not relevant for most players. In BF3 for example I never cared if my team got roflstomped(within reason) as long as I could do some ninja runs behind enemiy lines with my friends. This is because gameplay in BF3 does not really change if one team has all but one checkpoints, you still get your weapons and vehicles and still can kill the enemy. NS2 however sucks if you are losing. Actually it sucks more than any other FPS Ive ever played(And I played quite a few). It kind of sucks the same way as losing a SC2 match sucks. But the difference is that in SC2 you type gg and quit or just ragequit and get into another game. In NS2 especially as marine you sometimes loose for 20 minutes. Just yesterday I played a game where we lost about 30sec into the game when comm refused to build 2nd IP stil we had to play it out for 20 minutes. This is like in SC2 your Zerg enemy kills all but one of your workers with a normal zergling push but instead of finishing you he retreats and just builds up to broodlord infestor before he kills you. Of course you would not play out this match in SC2. In NS2 you have to because you get serious hate and even ban for selling IPs...
Second part is wrong imho. People get off on these kinds of rewards. Does is seems stupid that people are motivated by some random numbers popping up for holding left mouse button? Sure. But every single computer game is about this kind of downright absurd incentives like clicking at each others heads quicker or whatsoever. Some Actions have more graphic incentives like explosions or whatever but never underestimate the effect of simple score points on human brain's reward center. Simple example: People drop ammo in BF3. Do you really think these 13 yr old kiddies do that because of them wanting to help the team win? Of course not. They just loooooove these 10 pts. ticking down every second. OR do you think they play metro because it's such a good gameplay on this map? Hell no! they love these sweet points when they spam m320 or constantly revive poor teammates that will die again 1 sec later just to get revived again. So a rewarding points system has to do ALOT with how much fun players have with the game. And it's also a ridiculously easy thing to do compared to things like performance tweaking.
Comments
Enough evidence for you yet Zek on why Gliss wanted a meaning discussion in a subforum with experienced players? The new posts that pop up daily by some guy with 3 hours playtime who knows how to perfectly balance this game already make me want to vomit and should have been your first clue.
You ever watch 8-yr old kids play soccer? They all just huddle around the ball, and occasionally get lucky here or there. Now imagine trying to learn anything from watching that soccer game. And then imagine that 8-yr old kid comes up to you and starts telling you how he thinks the ball is too small and too hard to kick. Actually there should be 2 soccer balls. And the goals should really be bigger. And why can't he use his hands? Jeez who developed this game?!?! I can't believe I bought soccer during the christmas sale.
You ever watch 8-yr old kids play soccer? They all just huddle around the ball, and occasionally get lucky here or there. Now imagine trying to learn anything from watching that soccer game. And then imagine that 8-yr old kid comes up to you and starts telling you how he thinks the ball is too small and too hard to kick. Actually there should be 2 soccer balls. And the goals should really be bigger. And why can't he use his hands? Jeez who developed this game?!?! I can't believe I bought soccer during the christmas sale.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If a post is clearly ill-informed then just ignore it, it's still no reason to avoid a public discussion.
O Increased minimum distance that Cysts can be placed near other Cysts (now 6 meters up from 2 meters)
O When Cyst is destroyed, it's infestation dies instantly (we will improve effect if we keep this)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Just reading these suggested changes gave me a serious case of diarrhea.
You're only one step away from completely abolishing cysts from the game with these changes. The next one is just removing them.
O Increased <b>minimum</b> distance that Cysts can be placed near other Cysts (now 6 meters up from 2 meters)
To mean:
O O Increased <b>maximum</b> distance that Cysts can be placed near other Cysts (now 6 meters up from 2 meters)
That they are infact retarded.
You're only one step away from completely abolishing cysts from the game with these changes. The next one is just removing them.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hopefully they do remove them. Bring back Gorge builders. FPS problems solved. More strategy induced gameplay. Everybody wins.
Game begins: no one wants to be Alien comm so someone with some experience hops in.
Standing orders: 1. harass the marines constantly at spawn. When they are dead, eat their IPs till they spawn back. If marine spawns back, kill him and resume IP eatage. If you die, just group up at Hive and rush straight back there again. Just hold down mouse1, move the mouse in the general direction of the marines, and keep tapping spacebar -- marines can't touch you. (NO RES FOR MINES/still researching)
2. By now any stray marines would also fall back to defend main base. One or two skulks can sneak to whatever res towers they have and munch them down before any marine waddles his way back up there after securing base.
3. While this is going on we should have 3-4 RTs at least, plus the first upgrade. Pull back a skulk or two to defend second hive, the rest can keep harassing M-spawn or get any marine RTs.
4. By 11 mins someone should be ready with onos. Gorge goes with him to take out a secondary base the marines may have. If they phase there, counter-attack on M-spawn power node.
5. Get a few more res nodes and push secondary base with 2-3 onos, 1-2 gorge. Lerk harass is also really effective on powernodes. Fades can be impossible to kill if the guy being fade knows how to use it.
6. Time to get third hive and remaining few upgrades. Get some crags and whips near M-spawn and get the team to rush in and go for the power node. Pwnt. Latest is 25mins, usually with 2 decent alien soldiers 20mins victory is possible.
In short, constant alien pressure ensures victory.
The only times this doesn't work is if the aliens are totally uncoordinated and don't listen to the commander or don't defend the second hive. But in most games I command/play in as alien there's no need to defend second hive because the marines are too busy being spawn-rushed for the first 10mins. Seriously, a good marine team can be destroyed by a bunch of inept aliens.
The key problem is not fade health or marine armor cost, or how fast infestation disappears. ALIENS SPAWN TOO FAST. Marines are being wiped out because usually in a 3 skulks vs. 4 marines engagement, 3 marines will die (IN PUBS, you know, where most people play). One marine will get the 3 skulks, but another skulk that just spawned back will finish off that (now low health) marine and will be able to start eating the IPs/power node before any more marines spawn and by then anyway more skulks can arrive.
Skulk harass is getting unbearable, and the solution is what? Make marine spawn take longer!? AND make armor more expensive!? Wow. Public marines need more armor. Why would you even contemplate these changes? And no, infestation receding instantly is silly, and in no way compensates for the marine spawn-nerf. Even if you go for mines first, by the time the base is secure, the aliens have spread cysts all over the map, and can immediately rush to wherever you try to expand to.
Seriously, where does UWE get their ideas for balance changes from? If you make this game unplayable for newbies and even experienced public players, the game is going to get a bad reputation and people will stop playing. Yeah, yeah, they've already paid the money and it's no loss to you if they quit after buying, but they are going to tell all their friends the game's unplayable or just not mention the game to anyone at all, and go back to something else.
There's a bit of elitist snobbery on these boards, with people saying stuff like "Oh if they don't like it, they should just get out of NS2", the thing is, economics will punish any game whose developers take on that attitude -- I'm not saying UWE is like that, but you guys who profess to love this game seem pretty short-sighted.
Why was CS so popular? Why is it still one of the top-10 played games on Steam? Because if you put in effort to learn how to play, you are rewarded with success in the game, whichever team you are on. As I get more experience in this game, I find it becomes harder to play on one side, and these constant balance changes, lurching from one extreme to the other, really is going to bring the whole thing crashing down.
I still maintain that release build balance with a buff for fade health, and the movement of power nodes in Docking was all that we needed. Why can't the "elites" playing competitively play a modded version, and you guys just leave us public players alone? Steam sales with a 60% discount may be encouraging, but how many of those new players actually stick around? Reading changelogs and proposed changes it seems increasingly clear that the devs are doggedly focused on tinkering with trivialities and managing the decline of a game that had so much potential. Shame.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm +1 this post because he basically outlined every pub game I've played. He basically hits the nail on the head.
Are you talking about all video games in general? Somehow i doubt that ;)
The goal of a game is mainly to have a fun competition, video games often end up completely ignoring the "competitive" part in favor of delivering a fun experience for everybody. If losing is no fun and only winning is fun, how long do you think people gonna play that game? That's why a good game gives incentive to keep on playing even when losing. Or to use an very popular example: Rubber-band AI in racing games.
I also would argue that it's not getting a "bonus for dying" but rather an compensation for losing so the competition so it won't steamroll you for the remainder of the round. Having no equalizing mechanics only means that rounds turn into one sided affairs, where the winning side snowballs it's odds to unbeatable high levels, while the losing side has to sit it out and wait for the inevitable end. Dying in NS is already a punishment on several more levels (at least one less level with res gain while dead) compared to other games.
Or in short: Punishing the losing side too hard removes all options and incentives for comebacks. And NS has always been about comebacks, turning the tide of the round even after 50 minutes of playing and being stuck on one base. That's what keeps rounds engaging, that's what keeps people playing for nearly 2 hours even after losing expansions several times. That's what stops people from rage-quitting 5 minutes into the round...
Imho as of right now NS2 fails horribly on this compared to NS1. In NS2 the outcome of a round can usually be predicted well in advanced, because the odds for the winning team are snowballing at an much higher rate compared to NS1. But nobody likes playing additional 20 minutes of an round that's already lost because you suffered a huge setback the first 5 minutes in that you can't recover from in time to keep up with the enemy. In that case the "winning side" should get a boost to capitalize on an early win to finish the round as fast as possible, instead of drawing out an already lost round, but that would be a whole other can of worms.
Having said all that: I think we should wait and see how "res during dead" turns out before thinking further, i believe that change alone will have a pretty big impact overall not just on new players.
Standing orders: 1. harass the marines constantly at spawn. When they are dead, eat their IPs till they spawn back. If marine spawns back, kill him and resume IP eatage. If you die, just group up at Hive and rush straight back there again. Just hold down mouse1, move the mouse in the general direction of the marines, and keep tapping spacebar -- marines can't touch you. (NO RES FOR MINES/still researching)
2. By now any stray marines would also fall back to defend main base. One or two skulks can sneak to whatever res towers they have and munch them down before any marine waddles his way back up there after securing base.
3. While this is going on we should have 3-4 RTs at least, plus the first upgrade. Pull back a skulk or two to defend second hive, the rest can keep harassing M-spawn or get any marine RTs.
4. By 11 mins someone should be ready with onos. Gorge goes with him to take out a secondary base the marines may have. If they phase there, counter-attack on M-spawn power node.
5. Get a few more res nodes and push secondary base with 2-3 onos, 1-2 gorge. Lerk harass is also really effective on powernodes. Fades can be impossible to kill if the guy being fade knows how to use it.
6. Time to get third hive and remaining few upgrades. Get some crags and whips near M-spawn and get the team to rush in and go for the power node. Pwnt. Latest is 25mins, usually with 2 decent alien soldiers 20mins victory is possible.
In short, constant alien pressure ensures victory.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I played the balance mod. I like the cyst "MINIMUM" distance restriction. It is the only change in the mod that is a step closer to fixing this game, the rest most likely hurts it or doesn't change balance. I agree with EVERYTHING 'SupaDupaNoodle' said in his post on what usually happens. I see it time and time again too. Aliens can relenteslly hit marines until they get Onos and then game over. The game is VERY unbalanced right now. And the ratio of aleins winning is increasing each day it seems. I can barely play a game any more where the marines win unless the alien team has mostly new players. I have said it before and I will say it again. UWE is going lose "word of mouth" support of this game and a lot revenue each day this balance problem goes on. If the balance mod becomes what is released as build 236, then I may have to give up on the game until UWE does something right. I am sure the "best" solution is complicated and a ways off. But small changes can be made and meet a Jan 15th release date and make it better than what we have. This current mod is not better.
Personally, I have 5 friends wanting to buy the game and play and I told them DON'T. Not until they fix the game. I wonder how many other people are saying "negative" things about the game and causing people to not buy.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->O Marine respawn time increased from 7 to 9
O Alien spawn wave now has a max size of 3, per hive.
O Aliens must be dead for at least 6 seconds before they can respawn (up from 3)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
For that last one, PLEASE fix it so that it doesn't show the countdown until you're eligible to spawn in that wave(or make it show the real adjusted countdown). So frustrating to watch it say "3...2...1...Spawning now...just kidding".
O Marine respawn time increased from 7 to 9
O Alien spawn wave now has a max size of 3, per hive.
O Aliens must be dead for at least 6 seconds before they can respawn (up from 3)
So does this mean, the plan is to include the previous changes as well as these? Or are the previous changes and these just being tested with no guarantee of what will be in and what will not be?
2nd question, the item:
O Alien spawn wave now has a max size of 3, per hive.
What is the current max number of spawn waves?
O Marine respawn time increased from 7 to 9
O Alien spawn wave now has a max size of 3, per hive.
O Aliens must be dead for at least 6 seconds before they can respawn (up from 3)
So does this mean, the plan is to include the previous changes as well as these? Or are the previous changes and these just being tested with no guarantee of what will be in and what will not be?
2nd question, the item:
O Alien spawn wave now has a max size of 3, per hive.
What is the current max number of spawn waves?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
We don't know whats gonna happen till Jan 15. You never know what you're gonna get on update-day.
<!--quoteo(post=2058029:date=Jan 8 2013, 01:53 PM:name=MrChoke)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MrChoke @ Jan 8 2013, 01:53 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2058029"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If the balance mod becomes what is released as build 236, then I may have to give up on the game until UWE does something right.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
this is the whole point of the balance mod, to test changes individually and their merit in a controlled setting. obviously the alien buffs won't go into a full patch alone, that's why they're <i>in the balance mod</i>.
posts like this just dilute the discussion and are incredibly unhelpful to actually understanding the impact of each change. this thread is evidence enough of that, really, so I'm not interested in discussing the point and derailing any further.
<!--quoteo(post=2058101:date=Jan 8 2013, 04:54 PM:name=Zek)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Zek @ Jan 8 2013, 04:54 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2058101"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->For that last one, PLEASE fix it so that it doesn't show the countdown until you're eligible to spawn in that wave(or make it show the real adjusted countdown). So frustrating to watch it say "3...2...1...Spawning now...just kidding".<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
this occurs when you're spawning but your egg is killed, there's not really any way around that.
I think longer respawn times have the potential to reward more coordinated attacks coming from aliens. but it may just come down to lapses of attention or positioning rather than actual strategy. I also don't know what the current spawn wave limit is.
however, the egg spawning system still doesn't work as there is no way to choose which hive you want to spawn. all of these changes are pointless if the basic mechanic doesn't work in the first place. this is almost exactly mirroring the balance changes for Shift.
O Alien spawn wave now has a max size of 3, per hive.
What is the current max number of spawn waves?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
4, which makes it really easy for aliens to counter any potential marine rush as long as they have eggs. This change brings it a bit more in lines with "marines can't all respawn at once either, unless they cash in on plenty of expensive IPs".
This is very good to know. I had misunderstood the balance mod a bit I guess. If the idea is to test anything and see how they work, that is great. But no commitments at all to any part of it making a final build is key to understanding it.
I will see if I can find a server again with balance mod running and try these new changes out. I defintiely like them better than the previous set. I wish more servers had the mod.
posts like this just dilute the discussion and are incredibly unhelpful to actually understanding the impact of each change. this thread is evidence enough of that, really, so I'm not interested in discussing the point and derailing any further.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Where are you getting this from? The purpose of the balance mod is to sanity-check balance changes in advance of release so we don't get a repeat of 229. Certainly they can use it to focus on a subset of changes(like this version that focuses just on spawn rates for both teams), but what you're saying is that when the balance mod is unbalanced we should always assume that they have a magic bullet that will slip in to fix it when the patch goes live. Untested balance changes going live is exactly what the balance mod was created to prevent.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->this occurs when you're spawning but your egg is killed, there's not really any way around that.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No, it happens every time you miss the window for the next spawn wave because of the 3 second limit. You see what's left of the countdown as if you're going to spawn, and then you don't spawn.
But the whole point is that a very tiny proportion of the community even knows what a modded server is, let alone the significance of the "balance mod" servers... and so there will be a selection bias in the population that takes part in testing out the balance mod. You then get a skewed sample of above-average players -- in terms of experience and game-playing mentality -- providing a distorted set of game statistics on the balance-mod servers. Then when the patch/build goes live all hell breaks loose in "the wild," and you end up with a lot of public players totally confused about what the hell just happened.
We really need to get some sort of stability in terms of balance ASAP, and then just leave us alone to play and get better, and absorb and integrate newbies into the community at a reasonable rate. For testing later changes, I suggest using the UWE official servers: rename half of them with a "BETA" prefix since that is what most people will understand (versus "balance mod"). Then let the market decide: if you find these "BETA" servers have a higher participation rate than the regular servers, and a 50-50 (or near enough) win-rate, the changes are popular and safe to be released as the next build.
But above all else these balance changes need to stop being so frequent. We need to steady this ship and then let it sail in peace for a few months before making any more changes to balance. What I think we can all agree on is that the game, once stable in terms of balance, needs more content -- read: maps -- desperately!
We really need to get some sort of stability in terms of balance ASAP, and then just leave us alone to play and get better, and absorb and integrate newbies into the community at a reasonable rate. For testing later changes, I suggest using the UWE official servers: rename half of them with a "BETA" prefix since that is what most people will understand (versus "balance mod"). Then let the market decide: if you find these "BETA" servers have a higher participation rate than the regular servers, and a 50-50 (or near enough) win-rate, the changes are popular and safe to be released as the next build.
But above all else these balance changes need to stop being so frequent. We need to steady this ship and then let it sail in peace for a few months before making any more changes to balance. What I think we can all agree on is that the game, once stable in terms of balance, needs more content -- read: maps -- desperately!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not sure what you mean by "so frequent" - the last significant balance patch was 232, a month and a half ago. In any case there is no way to know with 100% certainty what balance will look like after months with a build other than to just release it. Most pub players are not bothered by subtle shifts in balance once every few weeks. The balance mod is just a way to find out out which changes would definitely be a mistake if they went live, like 229's regen changes.
How long is the alien spawn timer still? Is it still so buggy that you can wait up to nearly a minute to respawn? How does this non-existant scaling work for 9v9 or higher games?
How about we remove nanoshield and give the marine commander a nanobot ability that auto builds structures for 5 res.
First off I agree with Zek, as it stands we haven't had a balance patch in over a month. Secondly, we need better balance now, not a few months from now. If the win/loss ratio was less than +/- 5% then I could see taking more time. However, given the influx of new players, if you want to KEEP them playing (and telling their friends to join them) you need a game that is balanced and fun to play now - not in the summer.
still the list is either too trivial or too radical. and when i read about the facebook post on how they are gonna tweak the score so that healing and welding or whatever get scored, i am so surprised. even for those who ###### upon scores or K:D ratios, it will soon become boring for most. it is not even appealing to regulars who get used to the fact that having a high score/K:D is not necessarily good for the team. there are definitely some priority issues. the focus is missing.
First off I agree with Zek, as it stands we haven't had a balance patch in over a month. Secondly, we need better balance now, not a few months from now. If the win/loss ratio was less than +/- 5% then I could see taking more time. However, given the influx of new players, if you want to KEEP them playing (and telling their friends to join them) you need a game that is balanced and fun to play now - not in the summer.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think you need to re-read my post.
still the list is either too trivial or too radical. and when i read about the facebook post on how they are gonna tweak the score so that healing and welding or whatever get scored, i am so surprised. even for those who ###### upon scores or K:D ratios, it will soon become boring for most. it is not even appealing to regulars who get used to the fact that having a high score/K:D is not necessarily good for the team. there are definitely some priority issues. the focus is missing.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree that having fun is always the ultimate goal. What I have seen many times in a game is a one-sided blowout where the marines get wiped with almost no chance of doing anything. Of course having some games end like this is fine. Having a lot of games end like this, that is not fine, nor is it fun. The chances of a game ending this way is much higher for a noob marine team and YES, they need to L2P to a point. But aliens need to L2P too right? How often do you see the marines wipe the aliens in 2 minutes? Wash, rinse and repeat this so-common lose and it gets boring because you know your marine team is going to lose, badly.
For that last one, PLEASE fix it so that it doesn't show the countdown until you're eligible to spawn in that wave(or make it show the real adjusted countdown). So frustrating to watch it say "3...2...1...Spawning now...just kidding".<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In Russia the game trolls you.
As already said it's the spawn window. Why even have a spawn wave window? The little teamwork it tries to make are way more offset by the possible horrible spawn times which makes the game worse for many players. Why always try to get old broken game conventions to work?
As often as you can get a marine team to actually listen to the comm, stick together, and head to the starting hive.
still the list is either too trivial or too radical. and when i read about the facebook post on how they are gonna tweak the score so that healing and welding or whatever get scored, i am so surprised. even for those who ###### upon scores or K:D ratios, it will soon become boring for most. it is not even appealing to regulars who get used to the fact that having a high score/K:D is not necessarily good for the team. there are definitely some priority issues. the focus is missing.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Agree on the first part, winning/loosing is not relevant for most players. In BF3 for example I never cared if my team got roflstomped(within reason) as long as I could do some ninja runs behind enemiy lines with my friends. This is because gameplay in BF3 does not really change if one team has all but one checkpoints, you still get your weapons and vehicles and still can kill the enemy. NS2 however sucks if you are losing. Actually it sucks more than any other FPS Ive ever played(And I played quite a few). It kind of sucks the same way as losing a SC2 match sucks. But the difference is that in SC2 you type gg and quit or just ragequit and get into another game. In NS2 especially as marine you sometimes loose for 20 minutes. Just yesterday I played a game where we lost about 30sec into the game when comm refused to build 2nd IP stil we had to play it out for 20 minutes.
This is like in SC2 your Zerg enemy kills all but one of your workers with a normal zergling push but instead of finishing you he retreats and just builds up to broodlord infestor before he kills you. Of course you would not play out this match in SC2. In NS2 you have to because you get serious hate and even ban for selling IPs...
Second part is wrong imho. People get off on these kinds of rewards. Does is seems stupid that people are motivated by some random numbers popping up for holding left mouse button? Sure.
But every single computer game is about this kind of downright absurd incentives like clicking at each others heads quicker or whatsoever. Some Actions have more graphic incentives like explosions or whatever but never underestimate the effect of simple score points on human brain's reward center.
Simple example: People drop ammo in BF3. Do you really think these 13 yr old kiddies do that because of them wanting to help the team win? Of course not. They just loooooove these 10 pts. ticking down every second.
OR do you think they play metro because it's such a good gameplay on this map? Hell no! they love these sweet points when they spam m320 or constantly revive poor teammates that will die again 1 sec later just to get revived again.
So a rewarding points system has to do ALOT with how much fun players have with the game. And it's also a ridiculously easy thing to do compared to things like performance tweaking.