Yea if only marines had some kind of building that only cost 15 res and constantly revealed a giant part of the map and put tracking on people in range... Oh yea the obs. Seriously drifters aren't OP in the slightest.
Sure they are invisible while standing still and they only cost about 3 res, but they are weak and limited by LOS. You can't just put them throughout the whole map either you can have 5 per hive with a maximum of 15. Really if you have 15 of them up you're going to win anyway. Scan costs res but you see EVERYTHING in the area of the scan which you can do anywhere with no risk. That's the difference.
I'd also like to mention that keeping track of marines through parasite is pretty much inefficient currently. They can't target buildings anymore, its temporary and marines can get rid of it the moment they touch an armory. Its better to just ambush a marine or not risk yourself getting shot than actually putting in effort to keep track of a marine for a whole 5 sec.
If drifters somehow get changed (nerfed), parasite will have to be buffed alot again.
Drifters are balanced for alien play due to the fact that they have less map mobility than marines do (they have better movement, but can't respond as fast as marines due to them having phase and beacon). Therefore they require advanced warning that a location will be under attack in order to properly respond to it. It still requires forethought in drifter placement, and increases the amount of micromanagement you have to do (although is negligable, because alien comm does very little micro as it is, so it's not like it's a heavy burden).
However, I've said the same about hive health vs powernode health (that powernodes are balanced due to the fact marines have better map mobility). Also, I assume gorge tunnels will address the mobility problem, so my point might not be all that valid next patch.
Making drifters not invisible (unless shade hive) is a bad idea though, and will make them less than useless. I would suggest increasing the cost, but then they would be too expensive in the early game when they're needed the most.
Making scan cost energy (with small energy pool, or just no energy&res and have a long cooldown) instead of resources would go a long way to helping the problem (and also address the resource-draining issues of countering camouflage). That way the marines don't have to spend 3 res to scan for a 3 res drifter that might not even be there.
I think if you'd limit drifters to 2 or 3 per Hive would be fine. Right now you can cover the whole map with just one Hive which indeed is kind of op.
I also like the idea to ajust the drifter ability according to the Hives you have unlocked. With crag it could be an armor buff, shift keeps enzymes and shade could get a focus buff. This could also help khamms to have greater ability to participate in the game.
I don't see a problem with the way it works at the moment. Aliens need to have warning of marine movement and need to actively look for 'sneaky phase gates' or they risk instantly losing the game. Also you say that 'Good commanders won't make such a mistake' in reference to commanders failing to check map regularly; So if we are talking top level players, how many times do you see observers being sniped the moment they move in a PvT match in Starcraft? How often do players check regular proxy locations, overlord scout positions and pre-emptively scan common observer locations? I think people just need to give it time, as powerful strategy/tactics will be figured out and counters will be employed.
I fail to see how drifters are basically 'map hack' when they are hard countered by observatory and a commander who scans ahead for his marines. Not to mention that all the active players on the map can spot moving drifters.
The only problems I see with the drifter is that: 1) Too cheap 2) Has too many hit points 3) You can get 15 of them
<!--quoteo(post=2057294:date=Jan 7 2013, 09:30 PM:name=Brony)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Brony @ Jan 7 2013, 09:30 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2057294"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I have noticed the same with skulks. They too are invincible, unless you shoot them.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Except for the part where you, you know, walk into them.
<!--quoteo(post=2057304:date=Jan 7 2013, 05:51 AM:name=Ghosthree3)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Ghosthree3 @ Jan 7 2013, 05:51 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2057304"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Except for the part where you, you know, walk into them.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=2057315:date=Jan 7 2013, 06:05 AM:name=Ghosthree3)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Ghosthree3 @ Jan 7 2013, 06:05 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2057315"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Don't see how that was hard to understand, skulks become uncloaked if you walk into them, drifters don't.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Invincible ≠invisible
I don't think drifters are broken or unbalanced as some people here might make you believe. The only thing that could be addressed is making them less "spammable", and even that could be argued not being gamebreaking so why bother.
I was surprised to discover that Marines can walk through cloaked Drifters without them becoming visible again. The only thing to do is scan or damage them.
<!--quoteo(post=2057320:date=Jan 7 2013, 12:19 PM:name=Jekt)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jekt @ Jan 7 2013, 12:19 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2057320"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Completely skill less scouting.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'd love some more direct effect abilities as an alien com, like medpacks, ammo packs, nanoshield, scans, beacon, weapon drops, arcs ... . Its just not how aliens are designed to work.
Most abilities has to go through somekind of medium, like enzyme, bombard from whip, echo, ink cloud, crags healing increase, cyst rupture. Aside from the drifter, most stuff is immobile and requires maturity to be of any use and even then its very situational and often a waste of res.
But yes, we have bonewall, and even that has to be on infestation.
<!--quoteo(post=2057344:date=Jan 7 2013, 06:55 AM:name=Desther)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Desther @ Jan 7 2013, 06:55 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2057344"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I was surprised to discover that Marines can walk through cloaked Drifters without them becoming visible again. The only thing to do is scan or damage them.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That must be a bug, because I've seen drifters decloak when marines get close in the past.
Only thing I agree with is that drifters are a bit tough considering they are invisible aswell. Ideally I would like them to be affected by the hives: <ul><li>Shade hive: They start cloaking, but aren't by default.</li><li>Crag hive: They get their current HP, halved without.</li><li>Shift hive: They get their current speed, tad slower without.</li></ul>
<!--quoteo(post=2057354:date=Jan 7 2013, 02:18 PM:name=TimMc)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TimMc @ Jan 7 2013, 02:18 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2057354"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->That must be a bug, because I've seen drifters decloak when marines get close in the past.
Only thing I agree with is that drifters are a bit tough considering they are invisible aswell. Ideally I would like them to be affected by the hives: <ul><li>Shade hive: They start cloaking, but aren't by default.</li><li>Crag hive: They get their current HP, halved without.</li><li>Shift hive: They get their current speed, tad slower without.</li></ul><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
How about giving the alien com more options early game on hive 1 instead of taking even more away. If these changes goes in, aside from opening with a shade hive first, nobody is going to use drifters and they'll end up on the pile of other useless/situational stuff that aliens are hording.
Drifters are fine. Just make them uncloak when they're bumped into. On the rare occasions I Khamm now, I tend to keep one dedicated drifter for enzyme use and a couple in key areas to defend.
And if the limit for Drifters gets changed, I hope the MACs see the same change. MAC trains are silly.
"Starcraft does it differently" is not an argument. NS has always been simplified from an RTS perspective, and for good reason. Drifters are fine for the balance of the game.
You will notice a trend in this thread of pubstars who think that drifters are fine. There is less need for drifters as player count increases, and especially as organization is reduced.
Drifters are wildly OP in small competitive games and you can see it clearly in those types of games.
Just like the OP says, looking at the drifter from a strategy perspective its clear that its wildly overpowered. Pretty low cost, high speed, infinite lifetime, basically impossible to detect without scanning (at the same cost, so at best break even).
I would suggest an increase in cost to 5 res so that there is a tradeoff to be made in the early game between good scouting and good economy, right now you can still easily pick up your natural res towers, get drifters and still get your first upgrade all very quickly.
<!--quoteo(post=2057385:date=Jan 7 2013, 07:20 AM:name=statikg)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (statikg @ Jan 7 2013, 07:20 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2057385"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Just like the OP says, looking at the drifter from a strategy perspective its clear that its wildly overpowered. Pretty low cost, high speed, infinite lifetime, basically impossible to detect without scanning (at the same cost, so at best break even).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Here's a fun idea that hasn't been presented, yet.
You know how we pre-fire into vents and certain hiding spots to find cloaked aliens? Why not try that with Drifters? Fire a few rounds into a corner or a few boxes (where I like to hide my Drifter in Conduit).
If the aliens consistently know where you're coming from, scan the area.
As for increasing the cost of a Drifter? Sure, increase it to 5. That's a decent increase.
matsoMaster of PatchesJoin Date: 2002-11-05Member: 7000Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, Squad Five Gold, Reinforced - Shadow, NS2 Community Developer
<!--quoteo(post=2057217:date=Jan 7 2013, 06:40 AM:name=Terranigma)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Terranigma @ Jan 7 2013, 06:40 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2057217"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Wouldn't it be simply enough that they get revealed if touched? An invisible unit you cannot reveal or even feel when you're standing right inside of it is a bit odd and I agree, I consider it OP. I think that they should be fine it they get revealed if a marine touches them - comparing them to Scan, though, is pointless. Both cost about the same but a scan lasts a few seconds, Drifters might long a whole game unnoticed unless the commander frequently scans the whole map just to counter a 3-res unit.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Collision between players and drifters/MACs were removed a few patches ago to improve performance and make them easier to use. This had the inadvertent effect of making drifters impossible to detect as you no longer collide with them.
Previously, you had to place drifters in smart places to avoid marines running into them and killing them - as you can't steer drifters off the navigation grid, there were fairly few places where they could be placed without the marines running into them. Now when that's no longer the case, they can be placed anywhere outside obs range, making them arguably just too good.
Since then, the numbers of Macs/drifters you can have has become limited by tech-point possession, so its quite possible that collision can be turned back on without any bad effects.
<!--quoteo(post=2057385:date=Jan 7 2013, 02:20 PM:name=statikg)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (statikg @ Jan 7 2013, 02:20 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2057385"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You will notice a trend in this thread of pubstars who think that drifters are fine. There is less need for drifters as player count increases, and especially as organization is reduced.
Drifters are wildly OP in small competitive games and you can see it clearly in those types of games.
Just like the OP says, looking at the drifter from a strategy perspective its clear that its wildly overpowered. Pretty low cost, high speed, infinite lifetime, basically impossible to detect without scanning (at the same cost, so at best break even).
I would suggest an increase in cost to 5 res so that there is a tradeoff to be made in the early game between good scouting and good economy, right now you can still easily pick up your natural res towers, get drifters and still get your first upgrade all very quickly.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Who cares about competitive? Drifters are fine, though they should be revealed when walked into.
Comments
Sure they are invisible while standing still and they only cost about 3 res, but they are weak and limited by LOS. You can't just put them throughout the whole map either you can have 5 per hive with a maximum of 15. Really if you have 15 of them up you're going to win anyway. Scan costs res but you see EVERYTHING in the area of the scan which you can do anywhere with no risk. That's the difference.
If drifters somehow get changed (nerfed), parasite will have to be buffed alot again.
However, I've said the same about hive health vs powernode health (that powernodes are balanced due to the fact marines have better map mobility). Also, I assume gorge tunnels will address the mobility problem, so my point might not be all that valid next patch.
Making drifters not invisible (unless shade hive) is a bad idea though, and will make them less than useless. I would suggest increasing the cost, but then they would be too expensive in the early game when they're needed the most.
Making scan cost energy (with small energy pool, or just no energy&res and have a long cooldown) instead of resources would go a long way to helping the problem (and also address the resource-draining issues of countering camouflage). That way the marines don't have to spend 3 res to scan for a 3 res drifter that might not even be there.
Right now you can cover the whole map with just one Hive which indeed is kind of op.
I also like the idea to ajust the drifter ability according to the Hives you have unlocked. With crag it could be an armor buff, shift keeps enzymes and shade could get a focus buff.
This could also help khamms to have greater ability to participate in the game.
I fail to see how drifters are basically 'map hack' when they are hard countered by observatory and a commander who scans ahead for his marines. Not to mention that all the active players on the map can spot moving drifters.
The only problems I see with the drifter is that:
1) Too cheap
2) Has too many hit points
3) You can get 15 of them
1) 4 Tres
2) Half hp
3) 3 per hive
Use more drifters!
I have noticed the same with skulks. They too are invincible, unless you shoot them.
Except for the part where you, you know, walk into them.
...wot?
Invincible ≠invisible
a way to soft balance it then is possibly make drifters take longer to cloak back up again?
(cloaking drifters that are 'defending'.... should be ok for them to function as they are now?)
I'd love some more direct effect abilities as an alien com, like medpacks, ammo packs, nanoshield, scans, beacon, weapon drops, arcs ... . Its just not how aliens are designed to work.
Most abilities has to go through somekind of medium, like enzyme, bombard from whip, echo, ink cloud, crags healing increase, cyst rupture. Aside from the drifter, most stuff is immobile and requires maturity to be of any use and even then its very situational and often a waste of res.
But yes, we have bonewall, and even that has to be on infestation.
Misread, my bad.
That must be a bug, because I've seen drifters decloak when marines get close in the past.
Only thing I agree with is that drifters are a bit tough considering they are invisible aswell. Ideally I would like them to be affected by the hives:
<ul><li>Shade hive: They start cloaking, but aren't by default.</li><li>Crag hive: They get their current HP, halved without.</li><li>Shift hive: They get their current speed, tad slower without.</li></ul>
Only thing I agree with is that drifters are a bit tough considering they are invisible aswell. Ideally I would like them to be affected by the hives:
<ul><li>Shade hive: They start cloaking, but aren't by default.</li><li>Crag hive: They get their current HP, halved without.</li><li>Shift hive: They get their current speed, tad slower without.</li></ul><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
How about giving the alien com more options early game on hive 1 instead of taking even more away. If these changes goes in, aside from opening with a shade hive first, nobody is going to use drifters and they'll end up on the pile of other useless/situational stuff that aliens are hording.
And if the limit for Drifters gets changed, I hope the MACs see the same change. MAC trains are silly.
Drifters are wildly OP in small competitive games and you can see it clearly in those types of games.
Just like the OP says, looking at the drifter from a strategy perspective its clear that its wildly overpowered. Pretty low cost, high speed, infinite lifetime, basically impossible to detect without scanning (at the same cost, so at best break even).
I would suggest an increase in cost to 5 res so that there is a tradeoff to be made in the early game between good scouting and good economy, right now you can still easily pick up your natural res towers, get drifters and still get your first upgrade all very quickly.
Here's a fun idea that hasn't been presented, yet.
You know how we pre-fire into vents and certain hiding spots to find cloaked aliens? Why not try that with Drifters? Fire a few rounds into a corner or a few boxes (where I like to hide my Drifter in Conduit).
If the aliens consistently know where you're coming from, scan the area.
As for increasing the cost of a Drifter? Sure, increase it to 5. That's a decent increase.
Collision between players and drifters/MACs were removed a few patches ago to improve performance and make them easier to use. This had the inadvertent effect of making drifters impossible to detect as you no longer collide with them.
Previously, you had to place drifters in smart places to avoid marines running into them and killing them - as you can't steer drifters off the navigation grid, there were fairly few places where they could be placed without the marines running into them. Now when that's no longer the case, they can be placed anywhere outside obs range, making them arguably just too good.
Since then, the numbers of Macs/drifters you can have has become limited by tech-point possession, so its quite possible that collision can be turned back on without any bad effects.
Drifters are wildly OP in small competitive games and you can see it clearly in those types of games.
Just like the OP says, looking at the drifter from a strategy perspective its clear that its wildly overpowered. Pretty low cost, high speed, infinite lifetime, basically impossible to detect without scanning (at the same cost, so at best break even).
I would suggest an increase in cost to 5 res so that there is a tradeoff to be made in the early game between good scouting and good economy, right now you can still easily pick up your natural res towers, get drifters and still get your first upgrade all very quickly.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Who cares about competitive? Drifters are fine, though they should be revealed when walked into.