Help With Marines
Ribo
Join Date: 2012-12-28 Member: 176547Members
Join Date: 2012-12-28 Member: 176547Members
Ok, a few bits of information before I start:
1)We play with about 8-10 people split evenly if possible.
2)We all have less than 20 game under out belt and have never played a public game.
Ok, here is the problem. Every game, the aliens,in a pack, harass the marines to slowdown resource captures. The aliens save up for invisible, double armor rhinos. Everyone evolves into an invisible double armor rhino. The marines lose.
Several of my firends I play with are done with the game. Several are on the verge.
a) How do we get it more balanced so the marines win more?
b) Is there a server setting to increase marine resource gain per node?
c) Is there a setting to increase alien spawn time or anything else that might help? Weapon Damage? Are there any configurable variables?
1)We play with about 8-10 people split evenly if possible.
2)We all have less than 20 game under out belt and have never played a public game.
Ok, here is the problem. Every game, the aliens,in a pack, harass the marines to slowdown resource captures. The aliens save up for invisible, double armor rhinos. Everyone evolves into an invisible double armor rhino. The marines lose.
Several of my firends I play with are done with the game. Several are on the verge.
a) How do we get it more balanced so the marines win more?
b) Is there a server setting to increase marine resource gain per node?
c) Is there a setting to increase alien spawn time or anything else that might help? Weapon Damage? Are there any configurable variables?
Comments
Get on a pub (maybe that is the problem? never seen players outside your small niche playerbase) and see how veterans react to different aliens strats. not playing pubs is just hindering your knowledge of the game.
Get on a pub (maybe that is the problem? never seen players outside your small niche playerbase) and see how veterans react to different aliens strats. not playing pubs is just hindering your knowledge of the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Dude he plays with 8-10 people... thats 4v4 or 5v5... 3 people to res capping?
Did you even read his post?
Firstly I would move to 6v6's if you can/want to play competitively.
The game is balanced alot better for 6v6 than it is for 4v4/5v5.
Secondly currently the game is a little imbalanced towards aliens, this is escalated in beginner games due to Marines needing tactics whilst aliens can do ok by just doing whatever.
The key aspect of the game for marines is pressue, you need to ALWAYS be piling on the pressure with well supplied push teams on res/hives whilst having 1 dedicated marine capping res nodes. (maybe 2 if you get to 6v6's)
Your most important friend in doing this is Mr Mine, he if placed in a good spot will make it impossible for a skulk to charge you and give you ample time to kill him.
I would recommend watching a few of the competitive match videos as they show the basic strategy of how marines should play the game in smaller (6v6) games. You should attempt a 3-1-1 split (3 marines push to hive whilst 2 go each side to cap) getting an armoury and mines upgraded right away, then if its close spawns moving to a 4-1 split (1 caps whilst 4 push the hive with mines) or if its long spawns doing a 2-2-1 split (2 teams of 2 hunt res towers whilst 1 caps).
As individual players the marine game isn't just aiming well, a huge degree as to whether marines are successful is positioning:
The basics being as much line of sight as you can get:
An example of this is the Atrium hive on Summit, marines attacking this hive are pretty much forced to stand at the very north under the dome, due to the rest of the room having walls and pillars in order to block line of sight and provide ambush points for aliens. As well as this the north part is normally uninfected and thus the marines can drop mines and stand safely being able to shoot both the res tower and the hive with ease.
Good luck.
However, are there any server side variables we can play with if we want to give the marines a little something extra?
IE, player health,resource generation speed, weapon damage, respawn times
We probably would be interested in tweaking it to give the marines a boost.
They should be somewhere in the forums here, I never used them so I dont know if you can set something to increase the number of res a team gets per node for example, but you can give a team resources by command.
- You need to be able to aim well. If you can't aim against decent skulks then you're gonna have a bad time. Unfortunately, it takes practice so casual players ain't gonna be hotshots with their kills.
- Marines need to be aggressive and on the offensive to be able to achieve anything. Count how many games you lose while being too defensive and I bet it is significantly higher than being overly aggressive.
- Phase Gates are good, use them but don't overuse them. Put them in important locations.
- Observatories counter stealth, scan when you can't afford to place an observatory but usually get one at least in every main base and frequent marine paths such as reinforcement points to attack.
- Controlling the hives is important. Try to make sure aliens don't get 3 hives.
- Communication of incoming attacks is vital. If you see a blinking building that isn't a sentry gun, it's being attacked. Inform your team to defend.
- Refinery Map is still a bit favoured towards alien right now and difficult to hold RTs if you aren't aggressive enough.
- Buy shotguns, they are good when supporting a team vs lerks, skulks and fades.
- Mines are also good if people don't like using shotguns. Place them in sneaky places around resource points, observatories, sentries, phase gates and infantry portals.
- Sentries are too expensive early game, start getting them when you have a good resource flow.
- Don't lone wolf unless you are setting up a sneaky base or you know what you are doing such as getting extractors up or sneaking into alien lines to attack upgrades and harvesters.
- Exos and jetpack LMGs are the biggest counters to Onos. Play cautiously as an Exo, you die really fast but you also kill them really fast.
More specifically you stated that aliens move in a pack. Attack their base with a couple of marines and have the rest of your team defending and setting up bases. It forces them to defend and that means less time attacking you which means more time for you to setup extractors and forward bases to apply pressure. Don't be afraid to be aggressive, get stuck in there...unless ofc you have an expensive item without a team supporting you or if you don't have a jetpack.
Jester also mentioned above about positioning. Controlling the middle portions of the map especially on smaller servers is important as it allows you to react to different situations.
We're stuck at 5v5 because we refuse to play with random people because we are old, grumpy, and cynical of the ways of the internet.
Most of the time I play alien and we steamroll the marines. I posted because most of the people playing marines are getting fed up.
I find it hard to believe there and not server configurable variables that can change gameplay. This seems easy to have and filter could apply for non-standard servers to keep people who like it "pure" on a "pure" server.
Anyway, next time I go marine I'll be aggressive and see what happens. It could also be the sentries. Usually the marines cap a pt, then build sentries, then move on. It takes alot of time.
Upgrades should be your priority mines work like sentries early game but are much cheaper and dont waste T res.
If you guys dont wanna play with randoms you could always try www.ensl.org.
Its a gather sight so its not <i>quite</i> random.
Generally having huge groups of people not very <i>expeirenced</i> with how the game works isn't popular but at the moment its full of alot of new people anyway so I doubt it would make much diference and you seem intent on playing semi-competitively and willing to learn more about the game so... Might be interested in trying it! :)
Either way its a way of bumping it up to 6v6 without people being totally random.
Some quick tips for both sides:
<u>Both:</u>
- turn off atmospherics (flashlights no longer blind you)
- set infestation to minimal (FPS gain)
- set particle effects to low (FPS gain)
- hell, turn everything off except multicore rendering, and set your screen res lower if your computer can't handle it
- set your FOV all the way to the right
<u>Marines:</u>
- travel with at least one or two other people, briefly open your map to see where people are going and follow them about 6 - 8 ft away (don't bunch up)
- watch the vents, ceilings and corners, keep your ears open and listen for skulk feet
- fire a burst of around 5 - 8 bullets, correct your aim, fire another burst. If you hold your fire button down while trying to track a skulk you'll probably end up missing most of your shots
- learn to anticipate where a skulk is going to go, and use that to 'fire ahead' of him (AKA leading the target)
- don't back up while under attack from skulks - jump around left and right, hold down crouch during the jump, and try to keep tracking the skulk while you're jumping
- if you empty your rifle and your pistol, switch back to rifle and attempt to reload - don't try to use your axe or rifle butt unless you know the skulk is almost dead
- don't waste bullets on cysts or harvesters when you're far from an armory, run up and axe the harvester while keeping an eye / ear out for approaching danger
- listen to your commander and weld structures when needed (don't wait to be asked - just buy a welder and weld)
- crouching in place while firing your rifle does nothing except make you an easy target
- when holding a location, you should be trying to give yourself the largest possible area to allow for you to shoot skulks at range.
<u>Aliens:</u>
- travel in a pack
- hold down your movement button (whatever it is) to walk silently when you want to be sneaky in vents and dark places
- jump around left and right when you're attacking a marine
- aim your bites, don't just hold down the mouse button (scoring a direct hit does 75dmg, dropping to 50 and 25 on the outer edges)
- don't run straight at the marines on the floor, use the wall and ceiling, wall jump all the time (the idea is to be hard to hit)
- parasite marines, it slightly weakens their hp and armor and gives your team visibility of them
- don't charge multiple marines by yourself, running away to heal (or ambush them around the corner) is almost always better than getting shot
- don't forget to evolve the upgrades when they're available, and don't spam leap
We're stuck at 5v5 because we refuse to play with random people because we are old, grumpy, and cynical of the ways of the internet.
Most of the time I play alien and we steamroll the marines. I posted because most of the people playing marines are getting fed up.
I find it hard to believe there and not server configurable variables that can change gameplay. This seems easy to have and filter could apply for non-standard servers to keep people who like it "pure" on a "pure" server.
Anyway, next time I go marine I'll be aggressive and see what happens. It could also be the sentries. Usually the marines cap a pt, then build sentries, then move on. It takes alot of time.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
As much as you are old, grumpy and cynical, you're only denying yourself learning how to play properly by being so insular. Sentries are just no. Phase gates and jetpacks should be your response mechanism to a position under attack. If you're turtling around the map slowly fortifying every res node, you're going to have no map control whatsoever.
I'm sure someone could mod the server to tick more resources but that'd be like playing diablo with an item generator. Whats the point? With teams of equal skill the game currently is pretty well balanced. It's not perfect but its good. You need to get a marine commander to learn to command and the rest should fall into place.
Point gun - shoot
follow arrows to waypoint.
..My good deed for the day.
I would recommend the following:
Your best shot solo captures resource towers. All 3 other people apply pressure. Pressure can be applied by splitting up and trying to kill RTs, grouping together and trying to kill upgrade chambers (or killing all the eggs) in the hive, or by holding an important area of the map. With such a small game, your commander's primary focus should be on calling out the enemy positions. Someone on your team will need to realize and capitalize on opportunities. For example, if 3 skulks attack your solo RT guy on the other side of the map (always expand away from the enemy's hive position) then the 3 man pressure team should push into hive ASAP.
Never forget that you're primary goal is to 1) kill the enemy and followed closely by 2) kill things that cost resources.
If it's unlikely that you'll kill the hive, focus on the hive's resource tower or upgrade chambers (like a spur, for example).
If you are apply pressure and all die it's not that big of a deal. You should have 2 (maybe even 3) Infantry Portals so by the time the counter attack comes you'll be back again. If you die on the defensive, as a marine, it's basically game over without an expensive beacon (to call back all dead marines at the cost of 10 res, using the Observatory).
So in such low player number games you could be doing everything right, a skulk rush comes, kills the people in base, and it's gg.
edit: People are bashing sentries, and they're mostly right. But again, in such low player count games, you may want to put a sentry battery and 3 turrets behind your infantry portals. A marine's team single biggest weakness in a 5v5 is how fragile they are. The game can end as soon as 2/3 players are dead and the aliens are smart enough to move to kill infantry portals asap.
A few basic tips that havn't been mentioned:
Burst fire! If you unload your entire clip as soon as you see a skulk, your going to miss those shots unless he's running straight along the ground at you.. by burst firing, you may not kill him as quick when you do hit him, but you will hit him more consistently and won't be bunny hopping around trying to reload (after emptying your pistol too ofc).
Don't bunch up. keep a little distance between yourself and other marines.. it's difficult to shoot a skulk running between all your legs but if you've got 5 feet between you and the marine being attacked, you'll be able to kill them much easier.
Cover your team. Don't all rush to build the same thing, ensure 1 person is always keeping a lookout and has their weapon up...a skulk can close a lot of distance between you seeing him and getting your weapon up from building
The start of the match'll be pretty rough for marines, but if you can get past that, the upgrades will come in and you'll gain the upper hand. Given the small number i'd personally use a sentry or 2 to defend extractors or your base..even with phase gates up (and you will need these asap) you'll struggle to keep up with single skulks sneaking behind to cripple your economy. Above all though is keeping the pressure on! Keep in mind if a skulk rush fails, quick or sneaky marines have a chance to egglock aliens with the commander dropping a stream of ammo and hp to keep the marines alive to destroy the hive (if it's a nearby spawn).
Edit: actually looks like most of these have been mentioned above after all... should have read more thorougly.
If you absolutely do not want to do that as a team, at least YOU (the OP) should just play some pub games alone.
You will learn more from a single pub game than in 50 hours of playing with your isolated group. Even with the ######ty pub teams, you can get an idea of how to play, where to (not) go, and (very important) timing. All the meta elements of gameplay you guys are totally missing right now.
Your example with the sentries show how far away you guys are from playing "properly". This is a strategy game, where timing of attacks and upgrades is critical. You can't just do something else for 5 minutes and then complain why you have no chance. Getting resource towers, and building sentries at each one... this means no money for upgrades, delayed upgrades, allowing aliens to control the entire rest of the map... of course you lose.
This may be hard to see for you, because you have nothing to compare it to. So play some pub games!
If you know Starcraft 2: imagine starting a match and waiting 2 minutes before doing anything. This is the equivalent of how you guys play.
If you ABSOLUTELY, ABSOLUTELY cannot or do not want to play online, play like this as Marines:
<ul><li> *Everyone* stay together in a big group, always.</li><li> Build the first few base buildings (second Infantry Portal, Armory, Observatory)</li><li> Go to the center of the map directly and immediately, getting resource towers on the way (but do not sidetrack, do not split)</li><li> From then on, play for one goal only: "Aliens must not keep more than 2 - 3 (depending on the map ) Harvesters outside their base". Attack their harvesters, go back to center, repeat (think of Courtyard on the map Docking, and all the resource locations you can attack from there). Use mines to defend your group. Use a Phase Gate to get from base to fight quickly. Build extractors if they are on the way, but only then. Do not allow Aliens to get too many resource towers, and kill as many as you can. Nothing else matters (especially not "We need more Extractors!" The correct answer is "They need LESS Harvesters!"))</li><li> In the background, the commander can get phase gates, weapon and armor upgrades, new weapons (Flamethrower is excellent), etc. Dead people build base buildings before getting back to the group (Phase Gate!).</li><li> No sentries at all, on principle. They are useless anyway :-)</li><li> If you feel like you have the Aliens contained, one guy can go for a second base and more resource towers. Not more than 1 guy. And never stop pressuring the Aliens (or they will QUICKLY come back. Onos is very strong in a small team situation.)</li><li> If you still lost, you were too slow. Get Upgrades faster, kill Harvesters earlier, don't waste time with killing Cysts or any other timesink. Do as much *real* damage to Aliens as you can (= kill Harvesters)</li></ul>
*Maybe* this helps you, but playing some pub games will do much, much more.
1)We play with about 8-10 people split evenly if possible.
2)We all have less than 20 game under out belt and have never played a public game.
Ok, here is the problem. Every game, the aliens,in a pack, harass the marines to slowdown resource captures. The aliens save up for <b>invisible, double armor rhinos</b>. <b><i>Everyone evolves into an invisible double armor rhino.</b></i> <b>The marines lose</b>.
Several of my firends I play with are done with the game. Several are on the verge.
a) How do we get it more balanced so the marines win more?
b) Is there a server setting to increase marine resource gain per node?
c) Is there a setting to increase alien spawn time or anything else that might help? Weapon Damage? Are there any configurable variables?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
LOL
and +1 See comments on the General subforum on "Upcoming official balance mod"
Be warned - right now it appears that on the pub servers there is a pretty hefty imbalance towards alien wins. This could be due to the aliens having an advantage when the two teams have low-skill players. Marines need a very aggressive strategy, tightly-coordinated tactics, and excellent aim; if they are only kind-of aggressive, sort-of coordinated, and just okay at aiming, they will probably lose to similar opponents.
But at least in pub play you'll see a bigger variety of strategies, and more marine victories, than you've reported seeing in your private games.
I hope you don't get too frustrated. I too think there is something really good here, but it may take a while before we all figure out the best way to find it consistently.
They not useless. Your commander put sentries in incorrect positions so solo skulk can destroy them without getting any damage.
You guys really set yourselves up for failure by playing 5v5s and then getting frustrated when you lose as marines. To win a 5v5 as marines you need experienced players in all aspects of the game, and even then, against a similarly skilled team it would still be difficult.
if you want symmetrical gameplay wait for marine vs marine mods.
Thankfully our commander was very very good and he teleported us to base and told us all to get jetpacks and a weapon of choice(shotgun or flamethrower).
Than he started directing us to move together and just focus fire and chase the onos.
They cant get you when you can jet pack and you are faster than them so you can easily chased them.
5 marines with jet packs dominated like 7 onos that round it was awsome.
As a new players i really consideret exos to be the better option than jetpacks,but boy was i rong :D