<!--quoteo(post=2052921:date=Dec 29 2012, 12:09 PM:name=iyaerP)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (iyaerP @ Dec 29 2012, 12:09 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2052921"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->That is the stupidest simile ever. Playing on a 24 person server isn't stabbing a knife into your leg. It is me wanting to play in a bigger backyard than the dev's designed for and than you prefer. "But please Mr Dev, all I want is a frisbee that will go 20 feet further so that I can have fun in my bigger backyard by throwing over the swimming pool." Mr Dev tells me that swimming pools aren't intended to work with his frisbee, and you who has a smaller backyard are kicking me in the shins for having the audacity to try and have fun my own way. So from my heart to yours, kindly ###### off and stop posting stupid ###### about how 6v6 is the only way to have fun.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Notice how angry you are!
Realize you'd be less angry if you stopped jabbing that knife into your leg!
You can shout curses at the sky or you can realize the game works perfectly in a sweet spot of 6v6 to 10v10, and that raging over 12v12 playing like crap isn't going to change anything or bring you more fun. You <i>don't </i>have control over whether stabbing the knife into your leg hurts, but you <i>do </i>have control over whether you choose to stab yourself.
<!--quoteo(post=2053002:date=Dec 29 2012, 12:40 PM:name=Makenshi)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Makenshi @ Dec 29 2012, 12:40 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2053002"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Too bad you have no control when the game drops to a slideshow at 15 or 20fps on a 3ghz processor<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I overclocked mine from 3.6ghz to 4.3 and it increased 20 fps. It's silly.
<!--quoteo(post=2052945:date=Dec 29 2012, 10:03 AM:name=Axehilt)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Axehilt @ Dec 29 2012, 10:03 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2052945"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Notice how angry you are!
Realize you'd be less angry if you stopped jabbing that knife into your leg!
You can shout curses at the sky or you can realize the game works perfectly in a sweet spot of 6v6 to 10v10, and that raging over 12v12 playing like crap isn't going to change anything or bring you more fun. You <i>don't </i>have control over whether stabbing the knife into your leg hurts, but you <i>do </i>have control over whether you choose to stab yourself.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Glad to see you've degenerated this thread into namecalling and baseless hyperbole to get your point across.
Also 6v6 and 8v8 are the most horribly unbalanced rounds i've ever played. I would happily say 12v12 is more balanced anyday of the week. 6v6 are just stomp fests on one side with not enough players to change the tide, and marines with their free units end up destroying the map. Of course we want to escape the atrocities that are 6v6 rounds of hive camping over and over and over again.
<!--quoteo(post=2053158:date=Dec 29 2012, 09:03 PM:name=Kama_Blue)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kama_Blue @ Dec 29 2012, 09:03 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2053158"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Glad to see you've degenerated this thread into namecalling and baseless hyperbole to get your point across.
Also 6v6 and 8v8 are the most horribly unbalanced rounds i've ever played. I would happily say 12v12 is more balanced anyday of the week. 6v6 are just stomp fests on one side with not enough players to change the tide, and marines with their free units end up destroying the map. Of course we want to escape the atrocities that are 6v6 rounds of hive camping over and over and over again.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Did you quote the wrong post? I don't see any name-calling or baseless hyperbole in my post you quoted.
Also I'm not sure you get to create a thread about all the ways 12v12 is busted and then claim the sweet spot (12-18 player servers) provided "the most horribly unbalanced" rounds you'd ever played.
<!--quoteo(post=2053207:date=Dec 30 2012, 05:55 PM:name=Makenshi)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Makenshi @ Dec 30 2012, 05:55 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2053207"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So you are saying it makes perfect sense that it takes a 4.3ghz processor to play the game smoothly?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No it makes perfect sense that you got more fps when your clocks went up.
<!--quoteo(post=2053207:date=Dec 29 2012, 10:55 PM:name=Makenshi)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Makenshi @ Dec 29 2012, 10:55 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2053207"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So you are saying it makes perfect sense that it takes a 4.3ghz processor to play the game smoothly?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Processor speed =/= gigahertz
processors make no sense man, we need standardized measurements of speed for everything that actually relate to speed.
processors make no sense man, we need standardized measurements of speed for everything that actually relate to speed.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't think we can find a standard measurement. Every CPU architecture is a different beast, every software behaves uniquely.
Benchmarks are the only consistent way to determine speed.
processors make no sense man, we need standardized measurements of speed for everything that actually relate to speed.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Speed is obviously an adjective for processor in this case. I did not specify the <i>type</i> of processor because there are processors with much worse per-hertz efficiency than a second gen i-series.
<!--quoteo(post=2053255:date=Dec 30 2012, 07:25 AM:name=Ghosthree3)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Ghosthree3 @ Dec 30 2012, 07:25 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2053255"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->No it makes perfect sense that you got more fps when your clocks went up.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well it's pretty obvious that was not the point of the his post. <i>Why</i> do you think he thought the engine performance was silly? I can't quite put my finger on it, but it probably had something to do with him unable to fully enjoy the game with his processor running at 3.6ghz
OT (but still valid, actually somewhat relevant) rant: <span style='color:#000000;background:#000000'>You guys can argue semantics all you want, but you know what makes no sense? It makes no sense that my 4ghz i7 processor can play most modern games fluently on 3 monitors, but when it comes to NS2, I can't even run it at single monitor native resolution. Yea it's a homebrewed engine. Yea performance got leaps and bounds better (relatively). However, it seems like some people here are under the delusion that my 4ghz required for an almost-smooth gameplay is a subpar pc and that a 4.5ghz i5/7 "midrange" is the type of pc your average gamers are running nowadays.</span>
<!--quoteo(post=2053512:date=Dec 30 2012, 07:17 PM:name=Makenshi)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Makenshi @ Dec 30 2012, 07:17 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2053512"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Well it's pretty obvious that was not the point of the his post. <i>Why</i> do you think he thought the engine performance was silly? I can't quite put my finger on it, but it probably had something to do with him unable to fully enjoy the game with his processor running at 3.6ghz
OT (but still valid, actually somewhat relevant) rant: <span style='color:#000000;background:#000000'>You guys can argue semantics all you want, but you know what makes no sense? It makes no sense that my 4ghz i7 processor can play most modern games fluently on 3 monitors, but when it comes to NS2, I can't even run it at single monitor native resolution. Yea it's a homebrewed engine. Yea performance got leaps and bounds better (relatively). However, it seems like some people here are under the delusion that my 4ghz required for an almost-smooth gameplay is a subpar pc and that a 4.5ghz i5/7 "midrange" is the type of pc your average gamers are running nowadays.</span><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
As a note, the reason you're seeing such a bottleneck in speed on NS2 is that they developed their own engine. An engine that revolves around the CPU speed because of it's unique occlusion culling methods. Most other engines sacrifice quality, or take a huge amount of tweaking by mappers (i should know, i've mapped for various games) to get the map to render correctly at a decent FPS. The thing is, the CPU is crap compared to the GPU, specially at some of the things it's doing.
I have some really good ideas for how the devs can optimize the system, there's some really easy ways to do it, and some really difficult ways.
<!--quoteo(post=2053690:date=Dec 31 2012, 09:12 AM:name=Kama_Blue)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kama_Blue @ Dec 31 2012, 09:12 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2053690"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->As a note, the reason you're seeing such a bottleneck in speed on NS2 is that they developed their own engine. An engine that revolves around the CPU speed because of it's unique occlusion culling methods. Most other engines sacrifice quality, or take a huge amount of tweaking by mappers (i should know, i've mapped for various games) to get the map to render correctly at a decent FPS. The thing is, the CPU is crap compared to the GPU, specially at some of the things it's doing.
I have some really good ideas for how the devs can optimize the system, there's some really easy ways to do it, and some really difficult ways.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's exactly the issue. I keep seeing people say that other engines sacrafice quality and how Spark is more taxing in many ways than other engines, or again, how the engine has made leaps and bounds of progress. Excuse my French, but I don't give a ######. I <i>pay</i> to play a game. I <i>get paid</i> to program. When I play games, I don't really care about the technical aspects of its engine. All I know is NS2 performs a lot worse in comparison to most games with similar visual quality and scale, which some people keep insisting is not the case. I am fine with a game being improved. Hell, I don't even really care that NS2 is really a beta imo. I just don't want to hear people saying "the engine is fine" or "get a better comp" over and over again when I'm running a 4ghz i7 and game on triple monitor resolution on pretty much every other modern game in existence.
<!--quoteo(post=2053800:date=Dec 31 2012, 10:33 AM:name=Makenshi)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Makenshi @ Dec 31 2012, 10:33 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2053800"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->That's exactly the issue. I keep seeing people say that other engines sacrafice quality and how Spark is more taxing in many ways than other engines, or again, how the engine has made leaps and bounds of progress. Excuse my French, but I don't give a ######. I <i>pay</i> to play a game. I <i>get paid</i> to program. When I play games, I don't really care about the technical aspects of its engine. All I know is NS2 performs a lot worse in comparison to most games with similar visual quality and scale, which some people keep insisting is not the case. I am fine with a game being improved. Hell, I don't even really care that NS2 is really a beta imo. I just don't want to hear people saying "the engine is fine" or "get a better comp" over and over again when I'm running a 4ghz i7 and game on triple monitor resolution on pretty much every other modern game in existence.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
and i listed quite a few ways to possibly improve performance without sacrificing engine quality for all players. But who knows, i might be completely off my rocker here.
<!--quoteo(post=2053800:date=Dec 31 2012, 02:33 PM:name=Makenshi)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Makenshi @ Dec 31 2012, 02:33 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2053800"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->That's exactly the issue. I keep seeing people say that other engines sacrafice quality and how Spark is more taxing in many ways than other engines, or again, how the engine has made leaps and bounds of progress.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'll be honest with you... You sound like a CoD/battlefield 3/counterstrike/etc... player that doesn't appreciate the environment(map) you are gaming in and just care about shooting other people. Most other games cannot handle as many dynamic entities and events as well as this engine.
I guess you can only FULLY appreciate this engine if you have experience mapping in those other games.
For example: In TF2, I had such great ideas for maps, but they could never fully be realized because of performance issues with the amount of dynamic entities I would need to implement them. In TF2, if you exceed a certain amount of dymamic entities the map will just plain out crash, let alone worrying about performance. Not to mention for source maps and most other games, you have to compile your map, which can take awhile to see changes in things such as lighting, while in spark you can see these changes on the fly without going through a long compiling process.
Having essentially no limit on dynamic entities means mappers and developers can create unique gameplay elements that are exciting and fun. I personally like the ones so far in the game, such as the infestation, power nodes, etc......
Sure there may be worse performance because of these features, but having those features with this engine far exceed having something standard like other engines that wouldn't be able to handle it, thus creating a worse gaming experience.
<!--quoteo(post=2054047:date=Jan 1 2013, 09:20 AM:name=Res)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Res @ Jan 1 2013, 09:20 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2054047"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'll be honest with you... You sound like a CoD/battlefield 3/counterstrike/etc... player that doesn't appreciate the environment(map) you are gaming in and just care about shooting other people. Most other games cannot handle as many dynamic entities and events as well as this engine.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Don't try this. You are just lying to yourself.
This engine does nothing better than any of those engines you mentioned. Yes this engine has performance issues and people are getting annoyed by it, and hopefully at some point in the future they will be addressed. But don't lie to yourself about how its only because of all the entities and no other engine would handle so many entities. Frostbite2 handles 64 players. Boom. Entity theory debunked, by players alone. Source would handle this game without an issue. It handles physical interactions with many many objects. You think it wouldn't be able to handle some cysts linked up in a row?
processors make no sense man, we need standardized measurements of speed for everything that actually relate to speed.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=2054075:date=Jan 1 2013, 01:54 AM:name=Imbalanxd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Imbalanxd @ Jan 1 2013, 01:54 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2054075"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Don't try this. You are just lying to yourself.
This engine does nothing better than any of those engines you mentioned. Yes this engine has performance issues and people are getting annoyed by it, and hopefully at some point in the future they will be addressed. But don't lie to yourself about how its only because of all the entities and no other engine would handle so many entities. Frostbite2 handles 64 players. Boom. Entity theory debunked, by players alone. Source would handle this game without an issue. It handles physical interactions with many many objects. You think it wouldn't be able to handle some cysts linked up in a row?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Source would crash running NS2
As a mapper, yeah source engine had some pretty low entity limits. I Created a fully destructible ship that flooded with water when it was attacked by zombies/icebergs/typhoons while players defended it and prevented the masts from falling.
It crashed constantly. IT was amazing, but it crashed constantly when the physics went off.
<!--quoteo(post=2054047:date=Jan 1 2013, 02:20 AM:name=Res)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Res @ Jan 1 2013, 02:20 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2054047"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Not to mention for source maps and most other games, you have to compile your map, which can take awhile to see changes in things such as lighting, while in spark you can see these changes on the fly without going through a long compiling process.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You can preview your lighting in the hammer editor. Lightmaps still look much softer and nicer. With dynamic lighting, instead of having the compiler sit and waste CPU cycles churning out a light map, you in essence have to be the compiler and spend man-hours sitting and placing well-crafted ambient lights and wide-angled spot lights beneath floors and inside walls to fake radiosity.
<!--quoteo(post=2054047:date=Jan 1 2013, 02:20 AM:name=Res)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Res @ Jan 1 2013, 02:20 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2054047"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Having essentially no limit on dynamic entities means mappers and developers can create unique gameplay elements that are exciting and fun.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In that case I would prefer it if the engine had hard coded limits or just plain crashed when you spam too many entities, this would discourage making terrible, bogged down lag fests.
Having some experience with the spark editor, there does not appear to be any trigger system or map logic system and there is no per-map LUA code that automatically gets executed. This unique gameplay is restricted to mods. This is thankful, since mappers can do enough damage without it(see the lag- and chug-fest that is ns2_tram)
<!--quoteo(post=2054047:date=Jan 1 2013, 02:20 AM:name=Res)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Res @ Jan 1 2013, 02:20 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2054047"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I personally like the ones so far in the game, such as the infestation, power nodes, etc......<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Most players I've met think the game would be better if you plain just stripped power nodes and infestation from the game and replaced them with nothing; and that's before you even start talking performance.
<!--quoteo(post=2054116:date=Jan 1 2013, 04:00 AM:name=Soylent_green)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Soylent_green @ Jan 1 2013, 04:00 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2054116"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Most players I've met think the game would be better if you plain just stripped power nodes and infestation from the game and replaced them with nothing; and that's before you even start talking performance.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
wat.
Dynamic infestation is pretty awesome, it's the cyst system that sucks. And the lights on/off feature is also pretty awesome, it's just the power node system that sucks.
<!--quoteo(post=2054047:date=Jan 1 2013, 02:20 AM:name=Res)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Res @ Jan 1 2013, 02:20 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2054047"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'll be honest with you... You sound like a CoD/battlefield 3/counterstrike/etc... player that doesn't appreciate the environment(map) you are gaming in and just care about shooting other people. Most other games cannot handle as many dynamic entities and events as well as this engine.
I guess you can only FULLY appreciate this engine if you have experience mapping in those other games.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I love how people keep quoting a SINGLE line while ignoring the rest of the post. The point of quoting single lines is to avoid clogging up the forums, the rest of the post isn't magically invalid.
... in order to avoid sounding like a broken machine, I am just going to quote myself from another thread because some people love to repeat themselves over and over again.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't care if you think that NS2 possibly conceivably uses a superior way to render lighting, or you think that it possibly conceivably renders more dynamic entities than any other game in the world. The END RESULT is just what I stated which you happened to leave out of your quote: It doesn't run as well as many other games, does not look nearly as good as many other games, while object interaction is handled nowhere near as well as many other games.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=2054223:date=Jan 1 2013, 09:41 AM:name=Makenshi)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Makenshi @ Jan 1 2013, 09:41 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2054223"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I love how people keep quoting a SINGLE line while ignoring the rest of the post. The point of quoting single lines is to avoid clogging up the forums, the rest of the post isn't magically invalid.
... in order to avoid sounding like a broken machine, I am just going to quote myself from another thread because some people love to repeat themselves over and over again.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
He read your post and responded appropriately. You essentially said " I dont care what the engine does i just want it to run good" and he called you on it. He established the fact that your opinion was shallow and misguided because you had very little experience mapping in other games and didn't correctly understand what the engine was doing compared to the other games you're playing. He also pointed out you had serious misconceptions about how easy it was for other game engines to handle something like 50-100 animated entities in the same area with different functions, specially not on a polygon budget as lavish as the spark engine affords developers.
Even NS1 had trouble dealing with a marine base that had over 20 entities placed, and NS2 handles 100+ entities in a crowded hive with 20 eggs down, a hive, 3-4 upgrades, an RT, Clogs, whips, crags, shifts, shades, and the entire 12 man marine and alien team fighting one another to death with guns, fire, explosions and ammo/medkits being spammed everywhere.
Source engine, Crytek engine, Unreal engine. They'll DIE if you do that, try spawning 30+ guns in borderlands 2 and tell me your FPS is still fine and dandy (it'll drop like hell). Then go and spam 30 medkits in marine spawn and tell me how far that makes you FPS actually drop (almost nothing). BL2 is the unreal engine. Crytek? Dies if you spawn 20+ enemies. Source? It can't handle more than 10 physics objects without an extremely basic multiplayer physics setting and frozen until-moved objects. Skyrim? 30+ cheese wheels will bring your game to a FPS halt. Rooms full of objects are frozen until you touch one to conserve GPU power. Hell even Dota2 or LoL start stuttering when every champion flashes into one another and sets off their main abilities at once. That's a total of 10 players, maybe 5-6 NPCS, a tower, and one ability each.
He knows what he's talking about, you don't. The spark engine is REALLY good for what it does, but it could be better.
<!--quoteo(post=2054273:date=Jan 1 2013, 02:19 PM:name=Kama_Blue)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kama_Blue @ Jan 1 2013, 02:19 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2054273"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->He read your post and responded appropriately. You essentially said " I dont care what the engine does i just want it to run good" and he called you on it. He established the fact that your opinion was shallow and misguided because you had very little experience mapping in other games and didn't correctly understand what the engine was doing compared to the other games you're playing. He also pointed out you had serious misconceptions about how easy it was for other game engines to handle something like 50-100 animated entities in the same area with different functions, specially not on a polygon budget as lavish as the spark engine affords developers.
Even NS1 had trouble dealing with a marine base that had over 20 entities placed, and NS2 handles 100+ entities in a crowded hive with 20 eggs down, a hive, 3-4 upgrades, an RT, Clogs, whips, crags, shifts, shades, and the entire 12 man marine and alien team fighting one another to death with guns, fire, explosions and ammo/medkits being spammed everywhere.
Source engine, Crytek engine, Unreal engine. They'll DIE if you do that, try spawning 30+ guns in borderlands 2 and tell me your FPS is still fine and dandy (it'll drop like hell). Then go and spam 30 medkits in marine spawn and tell me how far that makes you FPS actually drop (almost nothing). BL2 is the unreal engine. Crytek? Dies if you spawn 20+ enemies. Source? It can't handle more than 10 physics objects without an extremely basic multiplayer physics setting and frozen until-moved objects. Skyrim? 30+ cheese wheels will bring your game to a FPS halt. Rooms full of objects are frozen until you touch one to conserve GPU power. Hell even Dota2 or LoL start stuttering when every champion flashes into one another and sets off their main abilities at once. That's a total of 10 players, maybe 5-6 NPCS, a tower, and one ability each.
He knows what he's talking about, you don't. The spark engine is REALLY good for what it does, but it could be better.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Most of the onscreen entities in NS2 are not animated objects. NS2 has a hard time handling more than 5 or 6 animated objects at the same time.
Oh hey, another post that repeats what's been said for about a hundred times! Look, I can do the same! <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't care if you think that NS2 possibly conceivably uses a superior way to render lighting, or you think that it possibly conceivably renders more dynamic entities than any other game in the world. The END RESULT is just what I stated which you happened to leave out of your quote: It doesn't run as well as many other games, does not look nearly as good as many other games, while object interaction is handled nowhere near as well as many other games.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Edit: Just to expand a bit further on my quote since some people apparently can't think on their own, let me present this to you. Suppose that the dynamic lighting <i>is</i> superior. Suppose the medkit and guns in NS2 <i>are</i> superior. What do these medkits and guns currently in NS2 offer that's any different than the guns in Quake or UT or BF or any other fps that's came out within the past decade? I don't care what the technology is <i>capable</i> of offering; the end result is just that - NS2 currently offers inferior performance relative to basically any other fps title currently out there today.
@Kama_Blue: If you don't think a paying customer has a right to complain when the product does not perform within expectation, you are delusional. Gaming industry (PC gaming in particular) are essentially the only one that gets away with this because gamers are willing to put up with more than most others. That doesn't mean gamers are in the wrong (most of the time, anyways) when they <i>do</i> complain.
<!--quoteo(post=2054273:date=Jan 1 2013, 02:19 PM:name=Kama_Blue)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kama_Blue @ Jan 1 2013, 02:19 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2054273"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->He read your post and responded appropriately. You essentially said " I dont care what the engine does i just want it to run good" and he called you on it. He established the fact that your opinion was shallow and misguided because you had very little experience mapping in other games and didn't correctly understand what the engine was doing compared to the other games you're playing. He also pointed out you had serious misconceptions about how easy it was for other game engines to handle something like 50-100 animated entities in the same area with different functions, specially not on a polygon budget as lavish as the spark engine affords developers.
... ... ...
He knows what he's talking about, you don't. The spark engine is REALLY good for what it does, but it could be better.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Do my eyes deceive me or do I see a red herring here? I myself prefer some milkfish, but I'm not a picky eater.
"Most of the onscreen entities in NS2 are not animated objects..."
On a 24 player map, there is up to 24 at least :) And flinch animations for the remaining alien quota, the weapons can be moved by gorge spit. And it *looks* way cooler than 24 cheesewheels. Even in slideshow mode. Plus 6 cheese wheels is, you know, 6 cheese wheels. 6 lots of chwl_textu_top_01 ... or 3 lots of skeleton_low and may the gods help your GPU when the dragon breaths flames on you. Nvidia is *still* advertising skyrim performance increases with driver updates (not that UWE isn't lol).
6 things in NS2 could easily all be different, after collecting every cheesewheel in Skyrim and making a mountain of them I bet people would go back to NS2!
True Story about the deelay - ive always wondered why i shoot skulks without any reactions while they attack some RT's or Powernotes till yesterday as i got instantly killed before i could react :O also i got killed a couple of times behind the wall as i wanted to hit n run against 2-3 marines
It's clear as day that OP writes from a biased Alien perspective. Marines have a whole host of other problems that outweigh aliens at the moment. Egglock? Try the always winning tactic of the alien zerg rush to kill your portal or IP . The game is done at that point and has far more success than the rine rush to egglock.
Comments
Notice how angry you are!
Realize you'd be less angry if you stopped jabbing that knife into your leg!
You can shout curses at the sky or you can realize the game works perfectly in a sweet spot of 6v6 to 10v10, and that raging over 12v12 playing like crap isn't going to change anything or bring you more fun. You <i>don't </i>have control over whether stabbing the knife into your leg hurts, but you <i>do </i>have control over whether you choose to stab yourself.
I overclocked mine from 3.6ghz to 4.3 and it increased 20 fps. It's silly.
<!--quoteo(post=2052945:date=Dec 29 2012, 10:03 AM:name=Axehilt)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Axehilt @ Dec 29 2012, 10:03 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2052945"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Notice how angry you are!
Realize you'd be less angry if you stopped jabbing that knife into your leg!
You can shout curses at the sky or you can realize the game works perfectly in a sweet spot of 6v6 to 10v10, and that raging over 12v12 playing like crap isn't going to change anything or bring you more fun. You <i>don't </i>have control over whether stabbing the knife into your leg hurts, but you <i>do </i>have control over whether you choose to stab yourself.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Glad to see you've degenerated this thread into namecalling and baseless hyperbole to get your point across.
Also 6v6 and 8v8 are the most horribly unbalanced rounds i've ever played. I would happily say 12v12 is more balanced anyday of the week. 6v6 are just stomp fests on one side with not enough players to change the tide, and marines with their free units end up destroying the map. Of course we want to escape the atrocities that are 6v6 rounds of hive camping over and over and over again.
Why is that silly...it makes perfect sense.
So you are saying it makes perfect sense that it takes a 4.3ghz processor to play the game smoothly?
Also 6v6 and 8v8 are the most horribly unbalanced rounds i've ever played. I would happily say 12v12 is more balanced anyday of the week. 6v6 are just stomp fests on one side with not enough players to change the tide, and marines with their free units end up destroying the map. Of course we want to escape the atrocities that are 6v6 rounds of hive camping over and over and over again.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Did you quote the wrong post? I don't see any name-calling or baseless hyperbole in my post you quoted.
Also I'm not sure you get to create a thread about all the ways 12v12 is busted and then claim the sweet spot (12-18 player servers) provided "the most horribly unbalanced" rounds you'd ever played.
No it makes perfect sense that you got more fps when your clocks went up.
Processor speed =/= gigahertz
processors make no sense man, we need standardized measurements of speed for everything that actually relate to speed.
processors make no sense man, we need standardized measurements of speed for everything that actually relate to speed.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't think we can find a standard measurement.
Every CPU architecture is a different beast, every software behaves uniquely.
Benchmarks are the only consistent way to determine speed.
processors make no sense man, we need standardized measurements of speed for everything that actually relate to speed.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Speed is obviously an adjective for processor in this case. I did not specify the <i>type</i> of processor because there are processors with much worse per-hertz efficiency than a second gen i-series.
<!--quoteo(post=2053255:date=Dec 30 2012, 07:25 AM:name=Ghosthree3)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Ghosthree3 @ Dec 30 2012, 07:25 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2053255"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->No it makes perfect sense that you got more fps when your clocks went up.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well it's pretty obvious that was not the point of the his post. <i>Why</i> do you think he thought the engine performance was silly? I can't quite put my finger on it, but it probably had something to do with him unable to fully enjoy the game with his processor running at 3.6ghz
OT (but still valid, actually somewhat relevant) rant:
<span style='color:#000000;background:#000000'>You guys can argue semantics all you want, but you know what makes no sense? It makes no sense that my 4ghz i7 processor can play most modern games fluently on 3 monitors, but when it comes to NS2, I can't even run it at single monitor native resolution. Yea it's a homebrewed engine. Yea performance got leaps and bounds better (relatively). However, it seems like some people here are under the delusion that my 4ghz required for an almost-smooth gameplay is a subpar pc and that a 4.5ghz i5/7 "midrange" is the type of pc your average gamers are running nowadays.</span>
OT (but still valid, actually somewhat relevant) rant:
<span style='color:#000000;background:#000000'>You guys can argue semantics all you want, but you know what makes no sense? It makes no sense that my 4ghz i7 processor can play most modern games fluently on 3 monitors, but when it comes to NS2, I can't even run it at single monitor native resolution. Yea it's a homebrewed engine. Yea performance got leaps and bounds better (relatively). However, it seems like some people here are under the delusion that my 4ghz required for an almost-smooth gameplay is a subpar pc and that a 4.5ghz i5/7 "midrange" is the type of pc your average gamers are running nowadays.</span><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
As a note, the reason you're seeing such a bottleneck in speed on NS2 is that they developed their own engine. An engine that revolves around the CPU speed because of it's unique occlusion culling methods. Most other engines sacrifice quality, or take a huge amount of tweaking by mappers (i should know, i've mapped for various games) to get the map to render correctly at a decent FPS. The thing is, the CPU is crap compared to the GPU, specially at some of the things it's doing.
I have some really good ideas for how the devs can optimize the system, there's some really easy ways to do it, and some really difficult ways.
I have some really good ideas for how the devs can optimize the system, there's some really easy ways to do it, and some really difficult ways.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's exactly the issue. I keep seeing people say that other engines sacrafice quality and how Spark is more taxing in many ways than other engines, or again, how the engine has made leaps and bounds of progress. Excuse my French, but I don't give a ######. I <i>pay</i> to play a game. I <i>get paid</i> to program. When I play games, I don't really care about the technical aspects of its engine. All I know is NS2 performs a lot worse in comparison to most games with similar visual quality and scale, which some people keep insisting is not the case. I am fine with a game being improved. Hell, I don't even really care that NS2 is really a beta imo. I just don't want to hear people saying "the engine is fine" or "get a better comp" over and over again when I'm running a 4ghz i7 and game on triple monitor resolution on pretty much every other modern game in existence.
Yeah, i got around to some testing
<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=126662" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...howtopic=126662</a>
and i listed quite a few ways to possibly improve performance without sacrificing engine quality for all players. But who knows, i might be completely off my rocker here.
I'll be honest with you... You sound like a CoD/battlefield 3/counterstrike/etc... player that doesn't appreciate the environment(map) you are gaming in and just care about shooting other people. Most other games cannot handle as many dynamic entities and events as well as this engine.
I guess you can only FULLY appreciate this engine if you have experience mapping in those other games.
For example: In TF2, I had such great ideas for maps, but they could never fully be realized because of performance issues with the amount of dynamic entities I would need to implement them. In TF2, if you exceed a certain amount of dymamic entities the map will just plain out crash, let alone worrying about performance. Not to mention for source maps and most other games, you have to compile your map, which can take awhile to see changes in things such as lighting, while in spark you can see these changes on the fly without going through a long compiling process.
Having essentially no limit on dynamic entities means mappers and developers can create unique gameplay elements that are exciting and fun. I personally like the ones so far in the game, such as the infestation, power nodes, etc......
Sure there may be worse performance because of these features, but having those features with this engine far exceed having something standard like other engines that wouldn't be able to handle it, thus creating a worse gaming experience.
Don't try this. You are just lying to yourself.
This engine does nothing better than any of those engines you mentioned. Yes this engine has performance issues and people are getting annoyed by it, and hopefully at some point in the future they will be addressed. But don't lie to yourself about how its only because of all the entities and no other engine would handle so many entities. Frostbite2 handles 64 players. Boom. Entity theory debunked, by players alone. Source would handle this game without an issue. It handles physical interactions with many many objects. You think it wouldn't be able to handle some cysts linked up in a row?
processors make no sense man, we need standardized measurements of speed for everything that actually relate to speed.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FLOPS" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FLOPS</a>
This engine does nothing better than any of those engines you mentioned. Yes this engine has performance issues and people are getting annoyed by it, and hopefully at some point in the future they will be addressed. But don't lie to yourself about how its only because of all the entities and no other engine would handle so many entities. Frostbite2 handles 64 players. Boom. Entity theory debunked, by players alone. Source would handle this game without an issue. It handles physical interactions with many many objects. You think it wouldn't be able to handle some cysts linked up in a row?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Source would crash running NS2
As a mapper, yeah source engine had some pretty low entity limits. I Created a fully destructible ship that flooded with water when it was attacked by zombies/icebergs/typhoons while players defended it and prevented the masts from falling.
It crashed constantly. IT was amazing, but it crashed constantly when the physics went off.
You can preview your lighting in the hammer editor. Lightmaps still look much softer and nicer. With dynamic lighting, instead of having the compiler sit and waste CPU cycles churning out a light map, you in essence have to be the compiler and spend man-hours sitting and placing well-crafted ambient lights and wide-angled spot lights beneath floors and inside walls to fake radiosity.
<!--quoteo(post=2054047:date=Jan 1 2013, 02:20 AM:name=Res)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Res @ Jan 1 2013, 02:20 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2054047"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Having essentially no limit on dynamic entities means mappers and developers can create unique gameplay elements that are exciting and fun.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In that case I would prefer it if the engine had hard coded limits or just plain crashed when you spam too many entities, this would discourage making terrible, bogged down lag fests.
Having some experience with the spark editor, there does not appear to be any trigger system or map logic system and there is no per-map LUA code that automatically gets executed. This unique gameplay is restricted to mods. This is thankful, since mappers can do enough damage without it(see the lag- and chug-fest that is ns2_tram)
<!--quoteo(post=2054047:date=Jan 1 2013, 02:20 AM:name=Res)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Res @ Jan 1 2013, 02:20 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2054047"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I personally like the ones so far in the game, such as the infestation, power nodes, etc......<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Most players I've met think the game would be better if you plain just stripped power nodes and infestation from the game and replaced them with nothing; and that's before you even start talking performance.
wat.
Dynamic infestation is pretty awesome, it's the cyst system that sucks.
And the lights on/off feature is also pretty awesome, it's just the power node system that sucks.
I guess you can only FULLY appreciate this engine if you have experience mapping in those other games.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I love how people keep quoting a SINGLE line while ignoring the rest of the post. The point of quoting single lines is to avoid clogging up the forums, the rest of the post isn't magically invalid.
... in order to avoid sounding like a broken machine, I am just going to quote myself from another thread because some people love to repeat themselves over and over again.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't care if you think that NS2 possibly conceivably uses a superior way to render lighting, or you think that it possibly conceivably renders more dynamic entities than any other game in the world. The END RESULT is just what I stated which you happened to leave out of your quote: It doesn't run as well as many other games, does not look nearly as good as many other games, while object interaction is handled nowhere near as well as many other games.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
... in order to avoid sounding like a broken machine, I am just going to quote myself from another thread because some people love to repeat themselves over and over again.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
He read your post and responded appropriately. You essentially said " I dont care what the engine does i just want it to run good" and he called you on it. He established the fact that your opinion was shallow and misguided because you had very little experience mapping in other games and didn't correctly understand what the engine was doing compared to the other games you're playing. He also pointed out you had serious misconceptions about how easy it was for other game engines to handle something like 50-100 animated entities in the same area with different functions, specially not on a polygon budget as lavish as the spark engine affords developers.
Even NS1 had trouble dealing with a marine base that had over 20 entities placed, and NS2 handles 100+ entities in a crowded hive with 20 eggs down, a hive, 3-4 upgrades, an RT, Clogs, whips, crags, shifts, shades, and the entire 12 man marine and alien team fighting one another to death with guns, fire, explosions and ammo/medkits being spammed everywhere.
Source engine, Crytek engine, Unreal engine. They'll DIE if you do that, try spawning 30+ guns in borderlands 2 and tell me your FPS is still fine and dandy (it'll drop like hell). Then go and spam 30 medkits in marine spawn and tell me how far that makes you FPS actually drop (almost nothing). BL2 is the unreal engine. Crytek? Dies if you spawn 20+ enemies. Source? It can't handle more than 10 physics objects without an extremely basic multiplayer physics setting and frozen until-moved objects. Skyrim? 30+ cheese wheels will bring your game to a FPS halt. Rooms full of objects are frozen until you touch one to conserve GPU power. Hell even Dota2 or LoL start stuttering when every champion flashes into one another and sets off their main abilities at once. That's a total of 10 players, maybe 5-6 NPCS, a tower, and one ability each.
He knows what he's talking about, you don't. The spark engine is REALLY good for what it does, but it could be better.
Even NS1 had trouble dealing with a marine base that had over 20 entities placed, and NS2 handles 100+ entities in a crowded hive with 20 eggs down, a hive, 3-4 upgrades, an RT, Clogs, whips, crags, shifts, shades, and the entire 12 man marine and alien team fighting one another to death with guns, fire, explosions and ammo/medkits being spammed everywhere.
Source engine, Crytek engine, Unreal engine. They'll DIE if you do that, try spawning 30+ guns in borderlands 2 and tell me your FPS is still fine and dandy (it'll drop like hell). Then go and spam 30 medkits in marine spawn and tell me how far that makes you FPS actually drop (almost nothing). BL2 is the unreal engine. Crytek? Dies if you spawn 20+ enemies. Source? It can't handle more than 10 physics objects without an extremely basic multiplayer physics setting and frozen until-moved objects. Skyrim? 30+ cheese wheels will bring your game to a FPS halt. Rooms full of objects are frozen until you touch one to conserve GPU power. Hell even Dota2 or LoL start stuttering when every champion flashes into one another and sets off their main abilities at once. That's a total of 10 players, maybe 5-6 NPCS, a tower, and one ability each.
He knows what he's talking about, you don't. The spark engine is REALLY good for what it does, but it could be better.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Most of the onscreen entities in NS2 are not animated objects. NS2 has a hard time handling more than 5 or 6 animated objects at the same time.
Oh hey, another post that repeats what's been said for about a hundred times! Look, I can do the same!
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't care if you think that NS2 possibly conceivably uses a superior way to render lighting, or you think that it possibly conceivably renders more dynamic entities than any other game in the world. The END RESULT is just what I stated which you happened to leave out of your quote: It doesn't run as well as many other games, does not look nearly as good as many other games, while object interaction is handled nowhere near as well as many other games.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Edit: Just to expand a bit further on my quote since some people apparently can't think on their own, let me present this to you. Suppose that the dynamic lighting <i>is</i> superior. Suppose the medkit and guns in NS2 <i>are</i> superior. What do these medkits and guns currently in NS2 offer that's any different than the guns in Quake or UT or BF or any other fps that's came out within the past decade? I don't care what the technology is <i>capable</i> of offering; the end result is just that - NS2 currently offers inferior performance relative to basically any other fps title currently out there today.
@Kama_Blue: If you don't think a paying customer has a right to complain when the product does not perform within expectation, you are delusional. Gaming industry (PC gaming in particular) are essentially the only one that gets away with this because gamers are willing to put up with more than most others. That doesn't mean gamers are in the wrong (most of the time, anyways) when they <i>do</i> complain.
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He knows what he's talking about, you don't. The spark engine is REALLY good for what it does, but it could be better.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Do my eyes deceive me or do I see a red herring here? I myself prefer some milkfish, but I'm not a picky eater.
And with that, the thread died for two days.
On a 24 player map, there is up to 24 at least :) And flinch animations for the remaining alien quota, the weapons can be moved by gorge spit. And it *looks* way cooler than 24 cheesewheels. Even in slideshow mode.
Plus 6 cheese wheels is, you know, 6 cheese wheels. 6 lots of chwl_textu_top_01 ... or 3 lots of skeleton_low and may the gods help your GPU when the dragon breaths flames on you. Nvidia is *still* advertising skyrim performance increases with driver updates (not that UWE isn't lol).
6 things in NS2 could easily all be different, after collecting every cheesewheel in Skyrim and making a mountain of them I bet people would go back to NS2!