Natural Selection 2 - from the perpsective fo a new player
Collic
Join Date: 2012-12-29 Member: 176642Members
Join Date: 2012-12-29 Member: 176642Members
Hello all,
I recently bought this game in the recent steam sale. I'd been looking forward to it, and the concept sounds great, but It's left me feeling quite dissapointed, and not for the reasons I expected it might.
The game feels quite rough and unpolished - 'beta' if you like, and the performance is pretty ropey compared to other games, multiplayer and single player, that look considerably better.
This could be because I'm new, but most of the games have been very one sided, with the marines often coming out on top unless the aliens just rush their base at the start and destroy it. The balance just feels very off for me. In most asymetrical games there are points in the tech tree and flow of the game that give one side an advantage. But in this game I just don't see it. The aliens seem to never really have the upper hand compared to what the marines can do. Shotguns come in very early and can deal with pretty much anything, but the aliens need a second base to even research basic things like leap.
The power mechanic feels pretty underwhelming. I understand thats a way to control expansion for marines like the cysts do for the aliens, but in combat it feels utterly pointless to target the power first unless the room is empty. I like that the lights go out, but this only happens for a few minutes so as a component to gameplay it feels pointless.
I've played games where the aliens dominate because the teams are stacked, but usually, its just a slow turtle war while the marines get the exo suits and obliterate the aliens even if the aliens control the majority of the map. It's a game that has lots of nice ideas, but none of it seems to really gel together. The commander stuff on both sides has lots of glaring issues as well, primarily with the clunky inferface.
I want to like this game, but I'm struggling to do that currently, and I have to wonder if most of the new players from the steam sale are going to do the same. This is just my opinion, so no offence is intended, but it feels like this game should still be in beta, and the game mechanics and balance need a lot of work before it really feels fun.
I recently bought this game in the recent steam sale. I'd been looking forward to it, and the concept sounds great, but It's left me feeling quite dissapointed, and not for the reasons I expected it might.
The game feels quite rough and unpolished - 'beta' if you like, and the performance is pretty ropey compared to other games, multiplayer and single player, that look considerably better.
This could be because I'm new, but most of the games have been very one sided, with the marines often coming out on top unless the aliens just rush their base at the start and destroy it. The balance just feels very off for me. In most asymetrical games there are points in the tech tree and flow of the game that give one side an advantage. But in this game I just don't see it. The aliens seem to never really have the upper hand compared to what the marines can do. Shotguns come in very early and can deal with pretty much anything, but the aliens need a second base to even research basic things like leap.
The power mechanic feels pretty underwhelming. I understand thats a way to control expansion for marines like the cysts do for the aliens, but in combat it feels utterly pointless to target the power first unless the room is empty. I like that the lights go out, but this only happens for a few minutes so as a component to gameplay it feels pointless.
I've played games where the aliens dominate because the teams are stacked, but usually, its just a slow turtle war while the marines get the exo suits and obliterate the aliens even if the aliens control the majority of the map. It's a game that has lots of nice ideas, but none of it seems to really gel together. The commander stuff on both sides has lots of glaring issues as well, primarily with the clunky inferface.
I want to like this game, but I'm struggling to do that currently, and I have to wonder if most of the new players from the steam sale are going to do the same. This is just my opinion, so no offence is intended, but it feels like this game should still be in beta, and the game mechanics and balance need a lot of work before it really feels fun.
Comments
Same sort of issues cropped up at launch when a ton of new players poured in. Stick with it.
And yes, the comm ui is pants.
and
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->please post your specs and have you try upgrading your drivers?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
the fact it doesnt and I have to turn off most of the bells and whistles to get it playable speaks for the engine, not my hardware.
Take the marines for example, the weapoms have no feedback or recoil at all, it's literally just point and click. If you had to contend with that, that alone could make the ranged/ versus all melee matchup feel a little better.
I recently bought this game in the recent steam sale. I'd been looking forward to it, and the concept sounds great, but It's left me feeling quite dissapointed, and not for the reasons I expected it might.
The game feels quite rough and unpolished - 'beta' if you like, and the performance is pretty ropey compared to other games, multiplayer and single player, that look considerably better.
This could be because I'm new, but most of the games have been very one sided, with the marines often coming out on top unless the aliens just rush their base at the start and destroy it. The balance just feels very off for me. In most asymetrical games there are points in the tech tree and flow of the game that give one side an advantage. But in this game I just don't see it. The aliens seem to never really have the upper hand compared to what the marines can do. Shotguns come in very early and can deal with pretty much anything, but the aliens need a second base to even research basic things like leap.
The power mechanic feels pretty underwhelming. I understand thats a way to control expansion for marines like the cysts do for the aliens, but in combat it feels utterly pointless to target the power first unless the room is empty. I like that the lights go out, but this only happens for a few minutes so as a component to gameplay it feels pointless.
I've played games where the aliens dominate because the teams are stacked, but usually, its just a slow turtle war while the marines get the exo suits and obliterate the aliens even if the aliens control the majority of the map. It's a game that has lots of nice ideas, but none of it seems to really gel together. The commander stuff on both sides has lots of glaring issues as well, primarily with the clunky inferface.
I want to like this game, but I'm struggling to do that currently, and I have to wonder if most of the new players from the steam sale are going to do the same. This is just my opinion, so no offence is intended, but it feels like this game should still be in beta, and the game mechanics and balance need a lot of work before it really feels fun.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You simply can't judge balance on the basis of a few hours you've put in the game. Actually, at the moment, statistics show that aliens win more often than marines. Something like 60/40 in favor of aliens last time I checked. The only problem is that it's harder for new players to finish off a marine team then it is for new players to finish off an alien team, mostly because they lack the coordination and understanding of game mechanics needed to end a marine turtle, but that will change with experience. In any case, I wouldn't dare say the alien team is at a large disadvantage.
There are though still performance issues for most people, and the commander interface could indeed use a facelift.
FYI, if you take out the power node, not only will the lights go out, all marine structures in that room will stop working including the infantry portals and armories, thus preventing them to heal up or respawn. The best way to end a turtle is to all attack together and target the power node first. It can go down in a flash. That's why so often the commander will put a robotics factory or armory in front of the power node, to protect it just a bit, because it's such a vital element to the marine's survival. If marines are down to just one base, you can also simply rush the command chair for an instant win, although the cc goes down a bit slower than a powernode.
It's not network lag, its stuttering and framedrops. I have'nt really seen any rubberbanding yet.
Take the marines for example, the weapoms have no feedback or recoil at all, it's literally just point and click. If you had to contend with that, that alone could make the ranged/ versus all melee matchup feel a little better.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's part of the NS gameplay that I doubt will change. The guns have no increasing spread, penalty for jumping or ironsights. Have you played Marines much yet? Point-and-click at aliens isn't that easy or every marine would kill 5 skulks with each magazine (which is possible if they hit all shots).
1. There´s much more pressure on a marine commander than an alien one. So if the Marines are winning constantly they have someone in control that knows what hes doing. Marines with a bad commander will almost surely loose while i´ve been in lots of games on the alien side where the commander doesn´t even do all the upgrades and never dropped craigs shifts and so one outside marine bases and marines still got destroyed. So advantage for the aliens there.
2. On the grunt side you have to remember most of us probably played tons of shooter games so we are used to the mechanic of point gun at alien and click. Playing alien is much harder not becaus aliens suck but because you have to learn a way of playing the game you probably never did before. Alien classes arent as straightforward and easy to get as the marines. Every unit has huge advantages but just as many disadvantages so theres a steep learning curve. Just the concept of thinking in 3 Dimensions as a Skulk and actually hide in a corner and dropp onto marines is something people need time to learn as i see skulks running in a straight line towards a marine thats pumping lead into them. But later in the game Aliens got access to much more powerfun tech than marines with nearly unkillable onos, health and armor (carpace) regeneration, silence, cloack and so on. Those are insanely powerful tools as long as you learn to make good use of them.
So basically it comes down to new players never having played anything like the aliens while being used to the playstile of the marines from other shooters but i think once they learn to play aliens they will agree with me that aliens probably have it easier than marines at winning the game.
This is how most fps games used to be and still should today, the whole recoil thing is a bit of a joke, added more for effect than anything else, if a person is accurate they should get the shot, not have their crosshair dance all over the place, real reflexes and skill are shown when it's like this, gamers should try going from cod to quake instagib and see just how well they do...
I'd also like to point out that likening everyone who points out this games flaws to cod players is a tiresome and irrelevant tact to take, I do not play cod, and never have. I did play quake actually. The difference there is that game ran at a smooth 60fps with reliable hit registration. It isn't really comparable to the gun play in this game or stuttering along the walls as an alien.
Anyway, feel free to lock this. Maybe I'll check the game out again in another few months or something.
Well, recoil is "realistic" per se, but not in the way most FPS games implement it. In fact, it's much worse. I've fired real machineguns (I was once in the US Army) and if they aren't mounted to the ground, you aren't going to hit a damn thing if you just hold down the trigger. This is why second generation and above versions of the M16 and M4 don't have full auto, instead they replaced it with three round burst. You can still produce the rate of fire of full auto by squeezing the trigger every 3/4 second'ish, but there isn't ever a need to. When you fire three round burst at a target, the first shot hits where you aim it, and the other two pretty much just miss outright (depending on how far away you are.)
The thing with video games though is they aren't necessarily supposed to be "real", rather, they are supposed to entertain the player. If you want to play a "realistic" game, there's a game you could play called desert bus (google it.) If the call of duty, battlefield, and other counterstrike "me-too's" emulated real life weaponry, most people would probably end up hating the game real fast (especially the console users who rely on aim assist.)
The recoil (or lack thereof) in NS, while probably not real compared to todays weapons (maybe in the future they have no recoil?) fits with the kind of game this is. In the real world, you don't have very small four legged creatures charging really fast at you by running on a wall. Recoil pretty well screws with your ability to hit anything like that at close range, especially when it requires multiple hits to stop it.
and<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Why would this be locked? If anyone only gave positive comments nothing would change. He isn't being rude or anything. Maybe we should lock you.
I recently bought this game in the recent steam sale. I'd been looking forward to it, and the concept sounds great, but It's left me feeling quite dissapointed, and not for the reasons I expected it might.
The game feels quite rough and unpolished - 'beta' if you like, and the performance is pretty ropey compared to other games, multiplayer and single player, that look considerably better.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually that might be due to the experimental lighting system in the game. Essentially no other engines out there have it working in them yet due to the heavy requirements for it to work. It looks quite good to me as in lowest settings still make textures look quite good.
<!--quoteo(post=2052813:date=Dec 29 2012, 01:02 PM:name=Collic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Collic @ Dec 29 2012, 01:02 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2052813"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This could be because I'm new, but most of the games have been very one sided, with the marines often coming out on top unless the aliens just rush their base at the start and destroy it. The balance just feels very off for me. In most asymetrical games there are points in the tech tree and flow of the game that give one side an advantage. But in this game I just don't see it. The aliens seem to never really have the upper hand compared to what the marines can do. Shotguns come in very early and can deal with pretty much anything, but the aliens need a second base to even research basic things like leap.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually you'd be shocked to learn the statistics say Marines only win about 34% of the time with Aliens claiming 66% win rates
<!--quoteo(post=2052813:date=Dec 29 2012, 01:02 PM:name=Collic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Collic @ Dec 29 2012, 01:02 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2052813"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The power mechanic feels pretty underwhelming. I understand thats a way to control expansion for marines like the cysts do for the aliens, but in combat it feels utterly pointless to target the power first unless the room is empty. I like that the lights go out, but this only happens for a few minutes so as a component to gameplay it feels pointless.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hitting the power also takes out anything in the room too (Except turrets) so if you knock the power out in the main base all the upgrades go down or Marines can't scan areas or even phase back
The thing to learn is that Aliens have so much more to their combat such as walls and little areas they can position themselves.
I would argue this quite a bit. My M4 had full auto and it wasn't hard to control unless standing since the recoil pretty much goes straight back. And if you're missing a bunch on a 3 round burst it's cause of poor fundamentals, the shots should be pretty much in the same spot depending on the distance.
Balance in this game is relatively difficult and I personally agree with shotguns being way too strong for when they become available. The same used to be true with leap. There was a point in the beta where leap was researchable from the start (and even a point where skulks just started with it) and it was ludicrously OP. The big game changers for aliens are lifeforms not so much T2/3 abilities when compared with the timings marines are able to get tech out. Usually when the fade pops around 7minutes or so that is when the aliens should be getting the upper hand but the fade is a bit underpowered atm and takes a pretty good player to handle it well.
<!--quoteo(post=2052813:date=Dec 29 2012, 06:02 AM:name=Collic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Collic @ Dec 29 2012, 06:02 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2052813"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The power mechanic feels pretty underwhelming. I understand thats a way to control expansion for marines like the cysts do for the aliens, but in combat it feels utterly pointless to target the power first unless the room is empty. I like that the lights go out, but this only happens for a few minutes so as a component to gameplay it feels pointless.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The power mechanic needs to be more needed and intuitive, as it is right now it just feels tacked on to give marines an achilles heel since they are more effective at turtling.
<!--quoteo(post=2052813:date=Dec 29 2012, 06:02 AM:name=Collic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Collic @ Dec 29 2012, 06:02 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2052813"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I've played games where the aliens dominate because the teams are stacked, but usually, its just a slow turtle war while the marines get the exo suits and obliterate the aliens even if the aliens control the majority of the map. It's a game that has lots of nice ideas, but none of it seems to really gel together. The commander stuff on both sides has lots of glaring issues as well, primarily with the clunky inferface.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Part of the problem with the aliens not winning with the new players, is just that. They are new. Right now the aliens are considered to have the upper hand. I am sure you are not seeing a lot of gorges using bile bomb, lerking effectively, or god fading.
Honestly, I hope I am not the only one who appreciates the new players coming in and giving well thought out constructive criticism. When you come in and mention things a lot of the old timers do around here it helps get the dev's attention (and they do pay attention). Especially concerning the commander UIs and the power system. Thanks for posting!
edit: The recoil is by design. This is a twitch shooter that is more about movement (though movement still needs work *hint hint*). With recoil on say the LMG it would be ridiculous to try and hit skulks moving at the speed they do. This also forces skulks into engaging more creatively rather than simple juking to avoid being hit (ambushes, wall jumping etc)
<b>10 Random Tips:</b>
1. As skulk, don't run straight at marines.
2. As skulk, hop constantly. You almost never want to stop hopping.
3. As skulk, hop against walls frequently. By spamming spacebar near a wall you will actually move faster than you normally could.
4. As skulk, be accurate in your bites. Near misses do damage, but far less than direct hits.
5. As skulk, don't be too predictable. Run away to walljump sometimes.
6. As skulk, walljumping is running up a wall then hitting spacebar and flying off it while turning around to face your foe. It's much harder to aim at someone who's constantly varying their vertical height. (Part of the advantage of this is they usually spend the latter half of their LMG clip missing you, and then either have to reload or use their pistol, which puts them at a disadvantage.)
7. Check upgrades every respawn. Many new players forget to take advantage of team upgrades. Upgrade in the field at a safe spot if new upgrades become active.
8. Be relentless. Be ruthless. The attacking team wins NS2. The team with more idling players loses and has to constantly react to attacks on its holdings.
9. As alien, always pressure non-base resource nodes.
10. Ruthlessly prioritize targets. If there's just a phase gate, attack it. If there's a phasegate and infantry portals, attack power. If there's a resource node, attack the extractor (unless power is in a considerably safer spot, which it almost never is.) If something is half damaged, consider killing that first unless it's a low value target like an Armory. This goes for marines too, who are all too fond of wasting time killing every cyst along the way instead of running directly to kill an extractor.
At the range 75 meters is typical for a single target. M4 would be even worse, especially for full auto, that's why they don't make them that way anymore.