Seeing the Numbers
GreatGrizzly
Join Date: 2012-12-27 Member: 176408Members
Join Date: 2012-12-27 Member: 176408Members
So we have dozens of people that are giving their two cents on unit balance, and game design using personal anecdotes and whatnot. While personal anecdotes are fine and all, I was wondering if there was a way we can look at the statistics that are collected by UWE themselves for the game. I heard a few people talking about it around here on the forums. Is there a place we can go to see this information? If its not openly available I think it might be beneficial for the sake of cutting down the anecdotes that seem to dominate these forums.
Comments
The stats aren't very meaningful right now though. The game is too new with far too many rookies playing. You can't judge things like balance until more people start getting good/playing correctly. There are a lot of new commanders going bad tech paths and not using any real strategy. I see a ton of marines who don't know a lot of the basics, like that flamethrowers counter spores and whips. I see marines spraying all of their ammo in.a panic and then claiming the lmg needs a huge buff after not killing anything. I see a ton of skulks just running straight along the ground and then saying skulks suck.
I would be intetested in getting stats from only competitive matches though. Those players should know what they are doing. You can't argue balance if the players aren't doing it right.
What NS2 suffers from the most is the lack of any clear focus in the design or implementation of its game mechanics.
One of my favorite examples of this is the shotgun. While we all love this classic weapon, I'd like you to take a step back for a moment, and consider this line of reasoning. If I told you I had an idea for a game that pitted a strictly ranged team against a strictly melee team against one another, and then told you one of the (very few) available weapons to the ranged team would be a hard counter to melee combat, does that sound like good design?
I know we love the shotgun, but my point with this example is that good design isn't about what you think is cool, or even about what you think is fun, its about adherence to some core theme and expressing that through mechanics and art.
I've got nothing against the shotgun, but its just one of the many not-so-well-thought-out game mechanics that brings the experience of NS2 down.
Another great example is the Power/Lights mechanic. Personally, I've always loved the concept of Natural Selection as a Survival-Horror FPS/RTS. My favorite moments in the first game were when I first started playing the game, and the ambient noises and environmental details were so down right scary, that I was practically sweating bullets exploring an empty server! Now, maybe I'm alone there, but I was very excited when I first saw how intense combat could get, on both sides, when the alien team managed to take out a power node.
But after months, and countless hours, playing, I can't help but be baffled by how this mechanic has been implemented. Power nodes are tedious to deal with as a marine, and I never feel rewarded for defending one, despite being forced to do so. As well, its hard to gain any gratification for killing them as an alien. To gain any benefit from the lights going out, there needs to actually be marines in the room, but if there are marines in the room, you'd be a fool to stop and take the thirty or more seconds it takes to destroy a power node.
Power effects <i>nothing</i> in the alien gameplay experience. And its little more than a chore for the marine gameplay experience. One can argue that the pacing and timing of the game as it is requires the use of Power (and cysts for the aliens), but, if this is true, then it is only because the game was built <i>around</i> this mechanic. The way it works in the game, Power is just some <i>thing</i> that happens. Its effect on strategy are hardly mind-blowing, and in fact only serves to simplify, rather than diversify them.
My point with this response is simply that we can talk about balance all day, hell, we can even look at the game statistics too. But none of it really means anything because Natural Selection 2 suffers from a confused, unfocused game design that simply can't decide on what it wants to be. There are numerous little facets to this game which make it interesting, but none of them have any real depth to them. You could argue this to a point regarding any game, I suppose, but with this game, how can we really discuss "balance" meaningfully without also being forced to contend with numerous, seemingly arbitrary, aspects of its game mechanics?
Why is the fastest, most mobile lifeform on the alien team the only meaningful ranged harasser? Why does it have to sit completely still to do it? Why does the ranged team have an easy to upgrade, cheap, hard counter to the <i>entire</i> melee team? Why is the alien team supposed to be the mobile ambush team, yet the marine team has more movement enhancing abilities that enabled them to instantly teleport from one end of the map to the other? Why are some alien upgrades effected by 'being in combat' when others are not? Why are no marine upgrades effected by 'being in combat'? Why does the alien team require a Commander when they have an entire lifeform that, at least originally, served the same purpose?
How about this one (for performance considerations), why is the spread of infestation relegated to chaining unique entities all over the map, in a game built from LUA?
I'm not trying to argue that NS2 is broken, or somehow not enjoyable. I enjoy playing it almost every day. But I find the many back and forth discussions about balance on these forums to be meaningless in light of the fact that, for the entire history of its development (not to mention NS1), this game's core mechanics were decided primarily by throwing them at a wall, and just seeing what sticks.
My criticism doesn't apply to everything about NS2, but I think it applies to enough things to be meaningful, and I think its worth keeping in mind if you want to talk balance.
Gonna stop you there. I played a game yesterday where the aliens kept killing the power in system waypointing and due to that, I had to entirely rethink my command strategy because it was just such a pain trying to take sub from there, I'd have to say that effect on my strategy is a lot more than "some thing happening" Is power fine as is? No, but it is definitely a refreshing addition to the game. Perhaps let power nodes slowly regen marine armor within a certain vicinity or something, or let it dispense some ammo, just throwing ideas out.
Its effect on strategy, as I said, is that it simplifies the game play focus, rather than diversifies it. Your tactics, apparently all of them, were countered by being unable to maintain the power node. The alien strategy then, in this example, is incredibly simplistic.
You needed to rethink your approach, but that doesn't itself imply complexity, merely that you sought a different tactical solution to the situation. What about this scenario is either complex or more than incidental?
Its effect on strategy, as I said, is that it simplifies the game play focus, rather than diversifies it. Your tactics, apparently all of them, were countered by being unable to maintain the power node. The alien strategy then, in this example, is incredibly simplistic.
You needed to rethink your approach, but that doesn't itself imply complexity, merely that you sought a different tactical solution to the situation. What about this scenario is either complex or more than incidental?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Tsk tsk tsk, My strategy had to change, which, was due to the power not working. Map control is a red herring argument because my team had control of 90% of the map except Sub. We had to change tactics to deal with the power node. Sorry. You can argue this point to death but regardless of how you feel there is inherent strategical value in capturing and holding power nodes.
Second, you're attempting to argue that being unable to maintain the power in System Waypointing, while simultaneously holding 90% of the map, somehow deepened the strategic depth of the game. This is a meaningless example, and (while you can argue this point to death) it does not address the fact that power nodes are an incidental, rather than complex or diverse, gameplay mechanic.
In terms of complexity, that you were unable to maintain that particular power node while (apparently) completely outplaying the alien team merely reinforces my point that, as implemented, the powernode mechanic is an overly simplistic tactical option, and does very little to deepen the gameplay experience.
You can tell me I'm wrong all day, but you've said nothing to show that I am.
Want to take rush a marine base? go for the power
Want to expand into a new room? turn on the power
Want to try to sneak a phase somewhere? does power extend here i cant tell? wheres the node? com turn it on! no you click on it then press a, nevermind were dead.
Beyond the lights going out its a pretty boring mechanic.
Sounds a lot like a tubby little marine structure I know and love.
LOL what? Stats might not tell the whole story but they do a much better job at calibrating balance than personal anecdotes.
For instance Aliens win 70%+ of games in build 228
Obviously Aliens need a nerfing
and nerfed they were
Personal anecdote comes and and says, well I played 3 games last night and Marines won every time.
Stats are stats... they don't lie unless taken in small proportions or intentionally misconstrued, two issues that an educated viewer will decipher.
For instance Aliens win 70%+ of games in build 228
Obviously Aliens need a nerfing
and nerfed they were
Personal anecdote comes and and says, well I played 3 games last night and Marines won every time.
Stats are stats... they don't lie unless taken in small proportions or intentionally misconstrued, two issues that an educated viewer will decipher.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah. Win/loss stats are great for telling you what is and isn't working. You definitely balance with the vagueness of hundreds of illegitimate games and pub stomps. Aliens had a bunch of things nerfed because you don't know exactly what to nerf so you try a bunch of things that you don't even know if they would make the aliens underpowered or still overpowered. You should NEVER make a balance change based on stats alone. It's just asinine.
sounds VERY familiar
For instance Aliens win 70%+ of games in build 228
Obviously Aliens need a nerfing
and nerfed they were
Personal anecdote comes and and says, well I played 3 games last night and Marines won every time.
Stats are stats... they don't lie unless taken in small proportions or intentionally misconstrued, two issues that an educated viewer will decipher.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=2052342:date=Dec 28 2012, 11:43 AM:name=rhombus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (rhombus @ Dec 28 2012, 11:43 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2052342"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Balancing with <b>just</b> stats is as anecdotal as the balance opinions on these boards.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You've made rhombus' point, actually. Stats say that Aliens are winning 70% of games. So surely they "need to be nerfed." Firstly, that's not even necessarily the case. Second, while statistics are useful in finding patterns, they are not causal. These statistics, <i>particularly</i> this hypothetical statistic, tells you nothing about the actual mechanics of the game. You can make <b>no</b> informed decision about game mechanics, let alone balance, with only statistics to inform you.
Statistics "don't lie," I suppose, but they can easily mislead someone into thinking they understand the root cause of a problem when in fact they do not.
I think you've misconstrued rhombus' point, and need to rethink your position.
Statistics "don't lie," I suppose, but they can easily mislead someone into thinking they understand the root cause of a problem when in fact they do not.
I think you've misconstrued rhombus' point, and need to rethink your position.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The crux of my argument was this: "Stats might not tell the whole story but they do a much better job at calibrating balance than personal anecdotes."
Rhombus' argument was that stats and stories are equally useless when taken in singularly. My point is that stats should be weighted heavier because they give a depiction of the state of the game better.
The only reason to weigh statistical data higher than a personal anecdote, would be because a great many anecdotes is more informative than a single anecdote.
But you realize that neither invalidates the other, right? Rhombus' point was that without any other information, attempting to balance the game around statistics <b>alone</b> is as pointless as attempting to balance the game around anecdotal user experience. Because they are both effectively the same thing in terms of what they're telling you.
No one is saying that statistics are worthless or somehow less meaningful than personal anecdotes, which is what I think you believe is happening. Statistics are a very important feedback mechanism, but simply having them does not somehow make you better equipped to balance a game.
If you don't have some good idea of whats happening in the game mechanics, if the mechanics themselves are not well thought out, then those statistics give you no useful information out side of "X occurred with Y frequency". Does this tell you whether or not skulks need 10 more HP than they currently have? Does this indicate that refinery needs to have the powernode in Smelting moved to the opposite wall? Does it tell you if the spread of the shotgun needs to be modified in some way?
No. And, to restate rhombus' point, attempting to use statistics <b>alone</b> to balance a game is as useful as relying on the personal anecdotes found on this forum.
I realise this goes against the whole "marines are offensive, aliens are defensive" since marines will have to play more defensively, but it definitely adds slightly more complexity to the mechanic, makes taking out power nodes actually worthwhile (currently as skulk you just run around killing extractors and ignoring power), and would stop the game from being 2 big cluster######s of standstill-fighting after 10 minutes into the game.
The stats aren't very meaningful right now though. The game is too new with far too many rookies playing. You can't judge things like balance until more people start getting good/playing correctly. There are a lot of new commanders going bad tech paths and not using any real strategy. I see a ton of marines who don't know a lot of the basics, like that flamethrowers counter spores and whips. I see marines spraying all of their ammo in.a panic and then claiming the lmg needs a huge buff after not killing anything. I see a ton of skulks just running straight along the ground and then saying skulks suck.
I would be intetested in getting stats from only competitive matches though. Those players should know what they are doing. You can't argue balance if the players aren't doing it right.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The stats allow for one meaningful conclusion: the experiences of the overwhelming majority of players.
..or, well...the majority of players playing on a minority of servers actually running the stats mod.
By no means should balancing for rookie play be allowed to ruin competitive play, but to completely ignore the experience of the overwhelming majority of players would be stupid.
The marines are far and away more powerful than the aliens, in every way. Going head to head with equally teched and skilled marines will result in alien defeat each and every time. The aliens are vastly inferior to the marines in terms of mobility, firepower, and every other metric that matters.
However the marines have a massive and glaring vulnerability, and that is the speed with which they can lose a game. Whether this is directly due to the power node mechanic, I don't know. What I do know, however, is that this is causing aliens to be incredibly passive, which I don't mind, some of the time. However due to the aforementioned firepower discrepancy, the aliens are forced to be passive, which results in highly unfulfilling gameplay for both sides.