I really kind of think this would have worked better as a bunch of different threads rather than one giant umbrella Kama_Blue.
None the less. I mostly agree with you on all points. Just a couple little things.
Hitreg, as far as I can tell, is a real problem. I haven't seen any evidence that the "250 ms delay" is a real problem... In that I mean, it's IMPOSSIBLE to not have some type of delay, and I have yet to see evidence that the delay we currently do have is signifignatly worse than what it possibly could be. I'll give you that, personally, it FEELS worse than I remember from NS1, but I'm not sure if that's because it actually IS worse, or just because the scrolling damage numbers completely fail to hide it where in NS1 it would be better hidden.
Skulk vs Marine: I'd argue that's working as intended. They aren't supposed to be in a 50/50 scenario. Skulk is a zergling where Marines are, well, Marines. Skulks punish by being able to control the map more effectively and by harassing anything left unattended, not through direct combat. If combat happens, the marine has done his job, and he should have the advantage. I'd buy the argument that marines shouldn't be the ones forcing the aggression... but I don't think the solution is making skulks more powerful in direct combat.
Egglock is a good idea, but it's broken in it's current form because it doesn't scale appropriately with server size.
Arcs: Marine commanders can't see infestation 95% of the time. It would be REALLY frustrating finding the valid places to plant ARCS if they weren't allowed on infestation. I'm not sure what the solution is. I don't like ARCS as much as siege turrets from NS1... But then, I think a lot of that is that ARCS are much harder to figure out, and I feel like very few comms (including me) have really worked them out yet.
I completely agree with your stuff on gorges, powernodes, and flamethrowers. They aren't totally broken in the game, but there's something really off about the way all of those things work right now. They don't fit quite right. I don't think there's necessarily simple fixes to any of those problems though. It's not the type of thing where any one of a dozen possible tweaks would immediately make things better. It's really like a puzzle piece that needs to be crafted to make them fit just right.
I'm on board with this OP. Pretty much everything he's said I agree with; a lot of the features in the game are alright, but could be refined.
I love the notion that ARCs can't deploy on infestation. That might become a problem, though, if an alien comm spams cysts just to lock down the ARCs. How about this; instead of that, if an ARC moves on infestation, it will slowly take damage. If it deploys, it'll take twice that amount. This will give you a risk to take if you really want to rush ARCs.
nice say. particularly #1. its pointless to play a fps with bull###### hitreg and interpolations. so u tell me ti play a game that i have to shoot, doesnt kill when i hit but kills when i shoot behind the skulk outside the model? BULL######. thats why i have played a lot less already.
btw commander is just not fun. dun mention those horribly pathed arcs, macs or flying scouts already, too long didnt play forget its name. do yourself a favour, call him nanny. there is almost no strategic depth in it after you know the game. no situational awareness. its all about making your team deny rt and looking back to your base every other second checking if your power node is attacked because there is no 'you are under attack' message for it, which exists in every rts game i play, amateur competitive or causal trolling.
<!--quoteo(post=2051190:date=Dec 26 2012, 01:59 PM:name=buhehe)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (buhehe @ Dec 26 2012, 01:59 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2051190"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Sometimes (twice today) I've hit skulks with LMG for 150 damage, without killing them.
I wonder how the heck it's possible, considering they DIDN'T even have carapace (the match had just started).
Considering normal damage: HPs with cara = 70 + 30*2 = 130 without cara = 70 + 10*2 = 90
Am I missing something? Did it happen to anyone else?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Were you in a combat server? Because that's an issue with the mod atm, if you were in classic mode...never seen the numbers themselves say they were doing more than possible. Oh, could he have been near a crag/hive through a wall maybe, got a quick burst of healing?
<!--quoteo(post=2051200:date=Dec 25 2012, 07:42 PM:name=Ghosthree3)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Ghosthree3 @ Dec 25 2012, 07:42 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2051200"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Were you in a combat server? Because that's an issue with the mod atm, if you were in classic mode...never seen the numbers themselves say they were doing more than possible. Oh, could he have been near a crag/hive through a wall maybe, got a quick burst of healing?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I've been on non-combat servers and shot a skulk for 300 damage, or a lerk for 500 and still seen them fly away happily not dead. It's not a hit reg problem though, i think it's just that double-registered damage thing combat servers have is just a game bug, and sometimes normal servers have it too.
<!--quoteo(post=2050199:date=Dec 23 2012, 08:24 AM:name=Locklear)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Locklear @ Dec 23 2012, 08:24 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2050199"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->250ms delay is why a lot of competitive players hate this game in the NA scene. Somehow the EU players put up with it haha.
It's pretty retarded. Fix server performance, fix interpolation, please. It's even worse for public players on the big servers, just most of them don't realize that it exists.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It'd be great if changing the interpolation values were an option for servers.
zombiehellmonkeyJoin Date: 2007-08-31Member: 62093Members, Squad Five Blue
I prefer the larger population servers because 12 vs 12 games usually help even out player skills on public servers, and they're usually more fun because there's more things happening on the map. 6 vs 6, there's more running around involved, less action - yeah I hate running.
Coming from NS1, before NS2 was released, I really had my hopes up that NS2 would support 32 players. In terms of a real sci-fi battle, larger teams just seems more realistic and immersive in terms of plot. 8 vs 8 doesn't really feel like you're fighting a sci-fi war, but more like playing a football match with your buddies.
I liked that some of the larger games in NS1 would create a really complex playing field on the map. The more players, the more interesting the game. I'm a competitive player, who is really not interested in 6 vs 6, I like to play a busier game.
<!--quoteo(post=2051685:date=Dec 26 2012, 09:57 PM:name=zombiehellmonkey)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (zombiehellmonkey @ Dec 26 2012, 09:57 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2051685"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I prefer the larger population servers because 12 vs 12 games usually help even out player skills on public servers, and they're usually more fun because there's more things happening on the map. 6 vs 6, there's more running around involved, less action - yeah I hate running.
Coming from NS1, before NS2 was released, I really had my hopes up that NS2 would support 32 players. In terms of a real sci-fi battle, larger teams just seems more realistic and immersive in terms of plot. 8 vs 8 doesn't really feel like you're fighting a sci-fi war, but more like playing a football match with your buddies.
I liked that some of the larger games in NS1 would create a really complex playing field on the map. The more players, the more interesting the game. I'm a competitive player, who is really not interested in 6 vs 6, I like to play a busier game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think NS1 was balanced for 8v8, the 32 player servers came way later, but i agree they were the best. As the game gets more polished, the servers will get bigger. But UWE has to stick with it, add content and optimize the ###### out of this game for that to happen.
As long as they're making money, they better be updating this game.
zombiehellmonkeyJoin Date: 2007-08-31Member: 62093Members, Squad Five Blue
Best thing about 32 player games is having two simultaneous battles on the same map, that was what made NS1 fun, there never was a dull moment. I'm really hoping that with all the intended improvements NS2 will be as absorbing as its predecessor. I like the large player games, and the longer games too. I know that the developers decided to make the games shorter and more quickly decisive, but I really liked those several hour games too - I remember one NS1 game lasted 3 hours, I never got bored, and it was one of the most fun games I ever played. If the game is directed towards competitive players, you'll never have those 2-3 hour games. It's those longer games that you really get attached to, form bonds with other players, and those are the ones that people used to talk lovingly about on the NS1 forums.
<!--quoteo(post=2051200:date=Dec 26 2012, 04:42 AM:name=Ghosthree3)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Ghosthree3 @ Dec 26 2012, 04:42 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2051200"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Were you in a combat server? Because that's an issue with the mod atm, if you were in classic mode...never seen the numbers themselves say they were doing more than possible. Oh, could he have been near a crag/hive through a wall maybe, got a quick burst of healing?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, I was in a combat server now that I think of it, thx for the info.
<!--quoteo(post=2051721:date=Dec 27 2012, 09:44 AM:name=zombiehellmonkey)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (zombiehellmonkey @ Dec 27 2012, 09:44 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2051721"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Best thing about 32 player games is having two simultaneous battles on the same map, that was what made NS1 fun, there never was a dull moment. I'm really hoping that with all the intended improvements NS2 will be as absorbing as its predecessor. I like the large player games, and the longer games too. I know that the developers decided to make the games shorter and more quickly decisive, but I really liked those several hour games too - I remember one NS1 game lasted 3 hours, I never got bored, and it was one of the most fun games I ever played. If the game is directed towards competitive players, you'll never have those 2-3 hour games. It's those longer games that you really get attached to, form bonds with other players, and those are the ones that people used to talk lovingly about on the NS1 forums.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=2051721:date=Dec 27 2012, 04:44 AM:name=zombiehellmonkey)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (zombiehellmonkey @ Dec 27 2012, 04:44 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2051721"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If the game is directed towards competitive players, you'll never have those 2-3 hour games.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Why? Starcraft 2 has a certain 10-30 minute game arch, and it's clearly directed to competitive players (or at least that tonnes of effort is put into balancing it at the competitive level) but if you watch any competitive play you regularly have sprawling long games that seemingly defy the "design", just because sometimes teams are balanced and you can't so easily "win".
I see absolutely zero reason why design for competitive balance will shorten round times signifignatly. None of the concessions SC2 have made apply to NS2. Res towers don't run out, there is no max "food count" or cap on how much tech you're allowed to buy.
I don't see things getting any worse than they are for shortening games. If anything, when new tech like gorge tunnels and railgun exos come out games will push on longer as there are more lategame options to interact. I don't imagine we'll see issues with this any time soon.
I really resent game arch being blamed on directing the game towards "competitive players". Game arch has way more to do with casual players not wanting to spend 2 hours per a game than it has to do with competitive players not being willing to. Competitive players care much less about game length than they care about skill ceiling and balance.
<!--quoteo(post=2052192:date=Dec 28 2012, 04:18 PM:name=Bhauk)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bhauk @ Dec 28 2012, 04:18 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2052192"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Not sure if I agree that the command chair should power infantry portals.
Taking out the power would do nothing useful besides turning off the phase gate (because the obs was destroyed first, right?).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And the arms lab, and the armory, and the obs if it wasn't destroyed...
<!--quoteo(post=2052160:date=Dec 27 2012, 10:39 PM:name=Swiftspear)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Swiftspear @ Dec 27 2012, 10:39 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2052160"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Why? Starcraft 2 has a certain 10-30 minute game arch, and it's clearly directed to competitive players (or at least that tonnes of effort is put into balancing it at the competitive level) but if you watch any competitive play you regularly have sprawling long games that seemingly defy the "design", just because sometimes teams are balanced and you can't so easily "win".
I see absolutely zero reason why design for competitive balance will shorten round times signifignatly. None of the concessions SC2 have made apply to NS2. Res towers don't run out, there is no max "food count" or cap on how much tech you're allowed to buy.
I don't see things getting any worse than they are for shortening games. If anything, when new tech like gorge tunnels and railgun exos come out games will push on longer as there are more lategame options to interact. I don't imagine we'll see issues with this any time soon.
I really resent game arch being blamed on directing the game towards "competitive players". Game arch has way more to do with casual players not wanting to spend 2 hours per a game than it has to do with competitive players not being willing to. Competitive players care much less about game length than they care about skill ceiling and balance.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree.
My only concern when balancing around the competitive player is the skill floor, not round length.
<!--quoteo(post=2049763:date=Dec 22 2012, 07:22 AM:name=Kama_Blue)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kama_Blue @ Dec 22 2012, 07:22 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2049763"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--sizeo:4--><span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><b>1). the 250ms Delay</b><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--> Ever run at a resource node and fire at a skulk the second you see him, wondering why he doesn't move and just stands there and dies? I bet you didn't realize he DOESN'T KNOW you're shooting at him, until you've fired atleast 5 bullets, and can't humanly react before atleast 8, leaving even the best players dying sometimes to things they can't react to. Ever jumped around a corner and bitten the ankles of a marine near instantly, before he reacts and fires back? Ever run around the corner as a skulk and died a full third of a second later to bullets you know should have missed you?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Now that I see somebody mention it, I've actually run into this issue, though not as a skulk (I'm used to being paper as a skulk, and thus dying while exposed is to be expected.)
However I had a game where as a fade, I popped my head around a corner and was gibbed within a second of taking damage, even though I was at full health. I was like - damn, how the hell did that happen? They must have all fired at me at once (there were four marines) and got lucky really with all of their shots.
What you describe sounds more realistic though. I've also had plenty of times where I was pretty certain I was already well clear of marines as an advanced lifeform, yet still died anyways. My pings are always good (under 50ms most of the time) and my framerate almost never dips below 60, so I think something else is going on.
My only concern when balancing around the competitive player is the skill floor, not round length.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think some mods might address this a bit for casual fun play. I remember in NS1 there was a mod where if you had adrenaline as a lerk, you could pick up marines and drop them to their death, or even pick up gorges or skulks and carry them around the map. That was a pretty fun thing to do, but I don't think competitive players enjoy it too much.
I don't agree with all the points in the OP, but he brought his thoughts forward in a solid manner.
I will say this, for 6+ months I've been wondering why IP's aren't powered by the CC instead of the power nodes. Above that the simple fix to being egg locked is allow shifts built in hive locations give a passive bonus to egg-spawning when a built hive is present. Let the Khamm build 2 eggs for 5 res if he wants, but also have it increase the egg-spawn rate in that hive location passively. This effect would do nothing if no built hive is present.
Great post overall! I've been a vocal fan of "large game public balance" for quite a while now and it's nice to see that more people are finally acknowledging that it's an important part of the game that people want to play. After all some of us still remember how Charlie plugged the whole idea of NS2 in the first place: NS1 is the first contact, NS2 will be the full out war.
Sadly i don't think we've reached that goal.. As overall scale of the game has gotten way smaller compared to NS1, not only in terms of playernumbers but also abilities, map sizes and average round length.
But i wonder why so few people are actually going into the details with the more bold suggestions of the OP? Like giving Gorges the ability to build whips and shifts/crags/shades. Imho that's something that should have happened a long time ago, give Gorges a way to inject their p.res into the whole Kharaa metagame. That mechanic alone would help quite a bit to keep the game scaled even with higher player counts, it would also allow players that lack the twitch skills needed to play a good lerk/fade/onos to contribute to the team in a meaningful way, besides playing a mobile gimped crag. It would also motivate people on the Kharaa team to communicate and coordinate more, something that's barely existent as of right now (besides the usual "Khamm get that upgrade!")
Another thing that i also see barely mentioned is the fact that on the Marine side more players usually means that weapons/equipment bought with p.res stay in the round way longer compared to games with small player amounts, because there are more people around to keep them in the game. That's an large game advantage that Kharaa never gonna have, as their spent p.res are gone once they die. Giving the Gorge more building options certainly would help to negate that advantage to some degree. More power to Gorges!
Yes I have been thinking about #1 for some time now, it always feel like you are being killed while you are behind a corner, great post overall indeed, I agree with the most of it.
<!--quoteo(post=2052415:date=Dec 28 2012, 11:19 AM:name=rebirth)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (rebirth @ Dec 28 2012, 11:19 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2052415"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Another thing that i also see barely mentioned is the fact that on the Marine side more players usually means that weapons/equipment bought with p.res stay in the round way longer compared to games with small player amounts, because there are more people around to keep them in the game. That's an large game advantage that Kharaa never gonna have, as their spent p.res are gone once they die.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not sure how much of an impact this has on games. I notice that ultimately most marine weapons are weaker than alien lifeforms. But say if you stack up shotguns, or flamethrowers, or grenade launchers. It's really difficult to deal with.
<!--quoteo(post=2052327:date=Dec 28 2012, 10:56 AM:name=AlphaWolf)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (AlphaWolf @ Dec 28 2012, 10:56 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2052327"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Now that I see somebody mention it, I've actually run into this issue, though not as a skulk (I'm used to being paper as a skulk, and thus dying while exposed is to be expected.)
However I had a game where as a fade, I popped my head around a corner and was gibbed within a second of taking damage, even though I was at full health. I was like - damn, how the hell did that happen? They must have all fired at me at once (there were four marines) and got lucky really with all of their shots.
What you describe sounds more realistic though. I've also had plenty of times where I was pretty certain I was already well clear of marines as an advanced lifeform, yet still died anyways. My pings are always good (under 50ms most of the time) and my framerate almost never dips below 60, so I think something else is going on.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Once again. This is something in every game. All shooters have this exact phenomena. It's an artifact of the way the game hides the latency effect from the players using the game.
This will never go away, the question is simply weather it's actually worse than it should be in NS2, or weather it's performing as expected.
So far, I'm leaning towards "performing as expected" simply because I've never seen any real evidence to the contrary.
The only reason most players prefer 12vs12 is that 24vs24 doesn't bloody work. I think it's a moving target, if you could get 256-player servers to run acceptably people would play there; some people just prefer more action even if it turns the game into an unintelligible spammy mess.
24x24 would be fun to do if you had a good sized map. Maybe even with some outdoors, and have a heartier lerk and fade to compensate for the big open areas (as their current design relies on short corridors and closed areas.) You could have some epic melee battles that way.
<!--quoteo(post=2052761:date=Dec 29 2012, 05:23 AM:name=Swiftspear)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Swiftspear @ Dec 29 2012, 05:23 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2052761"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This will never go away, the question is simply weather it's actually worse than it should be in NS2, or weather it's performing as expected.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If you're used to the buttery smoothness and responsiveness of gldsrc and source engines, it's way worse than you expect.
<!--quoteo(post=2052770:date=Dec 29 2012, 02:48 AM:name=AlphaWolf)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (AlphaWolf @ Dec 29 2012, 02:48 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2052770"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->24x24 would be fun to do if you had a good sized map. Maybe even with some outdoors, and have a heartier lerk and fade to compensate for the big open areas (as their current design relies on short corridors and closed areas.) You could have some epic melee battles that way.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
5 fades, 5 lerks, 5 onos and 9 skulks descending upon an army of marines crowded around a small base in the middle of a large open field would be a glorious battle. I want it.
I would be interested in seeing some scaling on buildings/power nodes at least when servers have more than 10 players.
<!--quoteo(post=2049917:date=Dec 22 2012, 02:04 PM:name=Axehilt)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Axehilt @ Dec 22 2012, 02:04 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2049917"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->That's pretty much it.
If your friend jabs his knife into his leg and doesn't complain of the pain, there's no problem.
It's when your friend jabs his knife into his leg and complains of the pain that you have to point out the obvious, "Stop doing that."<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That is the stupidest simile ever. Playing on a 24 person server isn't stabbing a knife into your leg. It is me wanting to play in a bigger backyard than the dev's designed for and than you prefer. "But please Mr Dev, all I want is a frisbee that will go 20 feet further so that I can have fun in my bigger backyard by throwing over the swimming pool." Mr Dev tells me that swimming pools aren't intended to work with his frisbee, and you who has a smaller backyard are kicking me in the shins for having the audacity to try and have fun my own way. So from my heart to yours, kindly ###### off and stop posting stupid ###### about how 6v6 is the only way to have fun.
Comments
None the less. I mostly agree with you on all points. Just a couple little things.
Hitreg, as far as I can tell, is a real problem. I haven't seen any evidence that the "250 ms delay" is a real problem... In that I mean, it's IMPOSSIBLE to not have some type of delay, and I have yet to see evidence that the delay we currently do have is signifignatly worse than what it possibly could be. I'll give you that, personally, it FEELS worse than I remember from NS1, but I'm not sure if that's because it actually IS worse, or just because the scrolling damage numbers completely fail to hide it where in NS1 it would be better hidden.
Skulk vs Marine: I'd argue that's working as intended. They aren't supposed to be in a 50/50 scenario. Skulk is a zergling where Marines are, well, Marines. Skulks punish by being able to control the map more effectively and by harassing anything left unattended, not through direct combat. If combat happens, the marine has done his job, and he should have the advantage. I'd buy the argument that marines shouldn't be the ones forcing the aggression... but I don't think the solution is making skulks more powerful in direct combat.
Egglock is a good idea, but it's broken in it's current form because it doesn't scale appropriately with server size.
Arcs: Marine commanders can't see infestation 95% of the time. It would be REALLY frustrating finding the valid places to plant ARCS if they weren't allowed on infestation. I'm not sure what the solution is. I don't like ARCS as much as siege turrets from NS1... But then, I think a lot of that is that ARCS are much harder to figure out, and I feel like very few comms (including me) have really worked them out yet.
I completely agree with your stuff on gorges, powernodes, and flamethrowers. They aren't totally broken in the game, but there's something really off about the way all of those things work right now. They don't fit quite right. I don't think there's necessarily simple fixes to any of those problems though. It's not the type of thing where any one of a dozen possible tweaks would immediately make things better. It's really like a puzzle piece that needs to be crafted to make them fit just right.
I love the notion that ARCs can't deploy on infestation. That might become a problem, though, if an alien comm spams cysts just to lock down the ARCs. How about this; instead of that, if an ARC moves on infestation, it will slowly take damage. If it deploys, it'll take twice that amount. This will give you a risk to take if you really want to rush ARCs.
If not damage, it could slow fire rate or so.
btw commander is just not fun. dun mention those horribly pathed arcs, macs or flying scouts already, too long didnt play forget its name. do yourself a favour, call him nanny. there is almost no strategic depth in it after you know the game. no situational awareness. its all about making your team deny rt and looking back to your base every other second checking if your power node is attacked because there is no 'you are under attack' message for it, which exists in every rts game i play, amateur competitive or causal trolling.
I wonder how the heck it's possible, considering they DIDN'T even have carapace (the match had just started).
Considering normal damage:
HPs with cara = 70 + 30*2 = 130
without cara = 70 + 10*2 = 90
Am I missing something?
Did it happen to anyone else?
I wonder how the heck it's possible, considering they DIDN'T even have carapace (the match had just started).
Considering normal damage:
HPs with cara = 70 + 30*2 = 130
without cara = 70 + 10*2 = 90
Am I missing something?
Did it happen to anyone else?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Were you in a combat server? Because that's an issue with the mod atm, if you were in classic mode...never seen the numbers themselves say they were doing more than possible. Oh, could he have been near a crag/hive through a wall maybe, got a quick burst of healing?
I've been on non-combat servers and shot a skulk for 300 damage, or a lerk for 500 and still seen them fly away happily not dead. It's not a hit reg problem though, i think it's just that double-registered damage thing combat servers have is just a game bug, and sometimes normal servers have it too.
It's pretty retarded. Fix server performance, fix interpolation, please.
It's even worse for public players on the big servers, just most of them don't realize that it exists.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It'd be great if changing the interpolation values were an option for servers.
Coming from NS1, before NS2 was released, I really had my hopes up that NS2 would support 32 players. In terms of a real sci-fi battle, larger teams just seems more realistic and immersive in terms of plot. 8 vs 8 doesn't really feel like you're fighting a sci-fi war, but more like playing a football match with your buddies.
I liked that some of the larger games in NS1 would create a really complex playing field on the map. The more players, the more interesting the game. I'm a competitive player, who is really not interested in 6 vs 6, I like to play a busier game.
Coming from NS1, before NS2 was released, I really had my hopes up that NS2 would support 32 players. In terms of a real sci-fi battle, larger teams just seems more realistic and immersive in terms of plot. 8 vs 8 doesn't really feel like you're fighting a sci-fi war, but more like playing a football match with your buddies.
I liked that some of the larger games in NS1 would create a really complex playing field on the map. The more players, the more interesting the game. I'm a competitive player, who is really not interested in 6 vs 6, I like to play a busier game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think NS1 was balanced for 8v8, the 32 player servers came way later, but i agree they were the best. As the game gets more polished, the servers will get bigger. But UWE has to stick with it, add content and optimize the ###### out of this game for that to happen.
As long as they're making money, they better be updating this game.
Yes, I was in a combat server now that I think of it, thx for the info.
amen.
Why? Starcraft 2 has a certain 10-30 minute game arch, and it's clearly directed to competitive players (or at least that tonnes of effort is put into balancing it at the competitive level) but if you watch any competitive play you regularly have sprawling long games that seemingly defy the "design", just because sometimes teams are balanced and you can't so easily "win".
I see absolutely zero reason why design for competitive balance will shorten round times signifignatly. None of the concessions SC2 have made apply to NS2. Res towers don't run out, there is no max "food count" or cap on how much tech you're allowed to buy.
I don't see things getting any worse than they are for shortening games. If anything, when new tech like gorge tunnels and railgun exos come out games will push on longer as there are more lategame options to interact. I don't imagine we'll see issues with this any time soon.
I really resent game arch being blamed on directing the game towards "competitive players". Game arch has way more to do with casual players not wanting to spend 2 hours per a game than it has to do with competitive players not being willing to. Competitive players care much less about game length than they care about skill ceiling and balance.
Taking out the power would do nothing useful besides turning off the phase gate (because the obs was destroyed first, right?).
Taking out the power would do nothing useful besides turning off the phase gate (because the obs was destroyed first, right?).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And the arms lab, and the armory, and the obs if it wasn't destroyed...
I see absolutely zero reason why design for competitive balance will shorten round times signifignatly. None of the concessions SC2 have made apply to NS2. Res towers don't run out, there is no max "food count" or cap on how much tech you're allowed to buy.
I don't see things getting any worse than they are for shortening games. If anything, when new tech like gorge tunnels and railgun exos come out games will push on longer as there are more lategame options to interact. I don't imagine we'll see issues with this any time soon.
I really resent game arch being blamed on directing the game towards "competitive players". Game arch has way more to do with casual players not wanting to spend 2 hours per a game than it has to do with competitive players not being willing to. Competitive players care much less about game length than they care about skill ceiling and balance.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree.
My only concern when balancing around the competitive player is the skill floor, not round length.
Ever run at a resource node and fire at a skulk the second you see him, wondering why he doesn't move and just stands there and dies? I bet you didn't realize he DOESN'T KNOW you're shooting at him, until you've fired atleast 5 bullets, and can't humanly react before atleast 8, leaving even the best players dying sometimes to things they can't react to. Ever jumped around a corner and bitten the ankles of a marine near instantly, before he reacts and fires back? Ever run around the corner as a skulk and died a full third of a second later to bullets you know should have missed you?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Now that I see somebody mention it, I've actually run into this issue, though not as a skulk (I'm used to being paper as a skulk, and thus dying while exposed is to be expected.)
However I had a game where as a fade, I popped my head around a corner and was gibbed within a second of taking damage, even though I was at full health. I was like - damn, how the hell did that happen? They must have all fired at me at once (there were four marines) and got lucky really with all of their shots.
What you describe sounds more realistic though. I've also had plenty of times where I was pretty certain I was already well clear of marines as an advanced lifeform, yet still died anyways. My pings are always good (under 50ms most of the time) and my framerate almost never dips below 60, so I think something else is going on.
My only concern when balancing around the competitive player is the skill floor, not round length.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think some mods might address this a bit for casual fun play. I remember in NS1 there was a mod where if you had adrenaline as a lerk, you could pick up marines and drop them to their death, or even pick up gorges or skulks and carry them around the map. That was a pretty fun thing to do, but I don't think competitive players enjoy it too much.
I will say this, for 6+ months I've been wondering why IP's aren't powered by the CC instead of the power nodes. Above that the simple fix to being egg locked is allow shifts built in hive locations give a passive bonus to egg-spawning when a built hive is present. Let the Khamm build 2 eggs for 5 res if he wants, but also have it increase the egg-spawn rate in that hive location passively. This effect would do nothing if no built hive is present.
I've been a vocal fan of "large game public balance" for quite a while now and it's nice to see that more people are finally acknowledging that it's an important part of the game that people want to play. After all some of us still remember how Charlie plugged the whole idea of NS2 in the first place: NS1 is the first contact, NS2 will be the full out war.
Sadly i don't think we've reached that goal.. As overall scale of the game has gotten way smaller compared to NS1, not only in terms of playernumbers but also abilities, map sizes and average round length.
But i wonder why so few people are actually going into the details with the more bold suggestions of the OP? Like giving Gorges the ability to build whips and shifts/crags/shades. Imho that's something that should have happened a long time ago, give Gorges a way to inject their p.res into the whole Kharaa metagame. That mechanic alone would help quite a bit to keep the game scaled even with higher player counts, it would also allow players that lack the twitch skills needed to play a good lerk/fade/onos to contribute to the team in a meaningful way, besides playing a mobile gimped crag. It would also motivate people on the Kharaa team to communicate and coordinate more, something that's barely existent as of right now (besides the usual "Khamm get that upgrade!")
Another thing that i also see barely mentioned is the fact that on the Marine side more players usually means that weapons/equipment bought with p.res stay in the round way longer compared to games with small player amounts, because there are more people around to keep them in the game. That's an large game advantage that Kharaa never gonna have, as their spent p.res are gone once they die. Giving the Gorge more building options certainly would help to negate that advantage to some degree. More power to Gorges!
I'm not sure how much of an impact this has on games. I notice that ultimately most marine weapons are weaker than alien lifeforms. But say if you stack up shotguns, or flamethrowers, or grenade launchers. It's really difficult to deal with.
However I had a game where as a fade, I popped my head around a corner and was gibbed within a second of taking damage, even though I was at full health. I was like - damn, how the hell did that happen? They must have all fired at me at once (there were four marines) and got lucky really with all of their shots.
What you describe sounds more realistic though. I've also had plenty of times where I was pretty certain I was already well clear of marines as an advanced lifeform, yet still died anyways. My pings are always good (under 50ms most of the time) and my framerate almost never dips below 60, so I think something else is going on.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Once again. This is something in every game. All shooters have this exact phenomena. It's an artifact of the way the game hides the latency effect from the players using the game.
This will never go away, the question is simply weather it's actually worse than it should be in NS2, or weather it's performing as expected.
So far, I'm leaning towards "performing as expected" simply because I've never seen any real evidence to the contrary.
If you're used to the buttery smoothness and responsiveness of gldsrc and source engines, it's way worse than you expect.
5 fades, 5 lerks, 5 onos and 9 skulks descending upon an army of marines crowded around a small base in the middle of a large open field would be a glorious battle. I want it.
I would be interested in seeing some scaling on buildings/power nodes at least when servers have more than 10 players.
If your friend jabs his knife into his leg and doesn't complain of the pain, there's no problem.
It's when your friend jabs his knife into his leg and complains of the pain that you have to point out the obvious, "Stop doing that."<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That is the stupidest simile ever. Playing on a 24 person server isn't stabbing a knife into your leg. It is me wanting to play in a bigger backyard than the dev's designed for and than you prefer. "But please Mr Dev, all I want is a frisbee that will go 20 feet further so that I can have fun in my bigger backyard by throwing over the swimming pool." Mr Dev tells me that swimming pools aren't intended to work with his frisbee, and you who has a smaller backyard are kicking me in the shins for having the audacity to try and have fun my own way. So from my heart to yours, kindly ###### off and stop posting stupid ###### about how 6v6 is the only way to have fun.