Super Tech for Turtle Breaking
Katana-
Join Date: 2008-11-25 Member: 65575Members
Join Date: 2008-11-25 Member: 65575Members
<div class="IPBDescription">Global buffs for each team</div>Currently, there is no good way to convert an over whelming res advantage into over whelming fire power.
I was thinking each team should get a super buff.
The costs would be something like 75 res / 120 second research, 20 res activation, and than 1 res per second upkeep.
Marines could activate a global nano-shield, aliens would get global enzyme.
This way if a team has more than 6 resource nodes, they can maintain the ability non stop, and waltz over the other team, quickly ending the game.
I am not sure if the ability should be tied to tech points, as frequently you see marines holding out on two tech points despite the aliens having 6 or more rts. It does need to be very expensive, and have an activation and upkeep cost, other wise a comm can turn it on and off only when he needs it.
I was thinking each team should get a super buff.
The costs would be something like 75 res / 120 second research, 20 res activation, and than 1 res per second upkeep.
Marines could activate a global nano-shield, aliens would get global enzyme.
This way if a team has more than 6 resource nodes, they can maintain the ability non stop, and waltz over the other team, quickly ending the game.
I am not sure if the ability should be tied to tech points, as frequently you see marines holding out on two tech points despite the aliens having 6 or more rts. It does need to be very expensive, and have an activation and upkeep cost, other wise a comm can turn it on and off only when he needs it.
Comments
I'm willing to see more stuff to the small team to overcome the res barier and fight back.
Marine's turtle is a real pain to the end game. It just takes longer for the aliens to win.
Aliens have no turtle strategy and the only comeback for them is when the marines aren't paying attention to the other areas of the map. As they can sneak behind the enemy lines.
I don't want to see the game become a resource-only thing. It takes resources to deploy your strategy, but your strategy should be more important to the result of the game.
The snowball effect is pretty intense as it is now, this will only increase it.
First things first, it's important to note that this entire issue wouldn't even really exist if the Marine team's 1-tech defensive power wasn't so great. You could address that in a variety of ways, such as getting reduced Upgrade effectiveness with only one CC.
Alternatively you could give both teams some inefficient-but-powerful game closer purchases, and allow both teams to be powerful on 1 tech point (perhaps after aliens get a Shift Hive and then lose it, they can still purchase Spurs and shift upgrades, but it costs more than usual -- perhaps a <i>lot</i> more, like Double Cost.)
In the latter case, the purchases should not be global buffs, but reward skill. Which is a bit tricky, considering that if you are doing things right with a bunch of onos, gorges, and umbraing lerk you should technically already have enough to close out the game. But some possibilities would be things like Drifters having a 3-hive ability which itself works similar to umbra but costs a rather excessive amount of resources (more than it's worth in anything but closing out the game.)
While the former solution (don't let teams be overpowered on 1 tech point) has its appeal, I think the latter solution enables some more interesting endgame gameplay.
A bit offtopic, I've always wondered if it might work to have 25-cost jetpacks on 1 tech point (only if you've managed to save your Proto Lab, and only if you've already researched it) which would give the besieged team an actual chance to turn the game around if they're skilled enough to pull it off. But I feel the original problem needs to be addressed first of whether or not it's intentional for 1-tech marines to be that tough.
Long marine turtles only happen in Pubs where Aliens dont play as a team. I dont think we need to create gamemechanics to support stupid behaviour. Actually full map control aliens can end the game Anytime with com being able to spam Onos eggs. If mass Onos or atleast a proper lifeform mix attacks at once and do its job properly there is no way for marines to hold their base unless they have some dual minigun exos left. So basically this issue will disapper as soon as people get more experience and stop thinking theyre John Rambo. Dont need to fix anything that isnt broken.
The point is that for pubs there are already turtle-breakers. For marines against one-harvester aliens, everybody on the marine team going jetpack/shotgun tends to do it, or a heavy train. For aliens, a few onos and gorges hitting the marine base at the same time.
You don't even need your whole team to co-operate to pull this off, just a big chunk of them, and that's usually possible in a pub even when not everybody is a team player.
And yes, I realize that heavy trains are vulnerable to certain things, but the most obvious counters don't work in this scenario. Gorges can't have bile bombs on a single hive, and the normal trick of forcing marine beacons don't work if the commander has half a brain (if you have 3 or 4 bases and the enemy has 1 base, you can do a 1-to-1 trade and you win).
Yes there is. At this moment there is just a massive amount of rookies playing the game who don't know how to finish off matches properly.
Pray tell what is this super strat for breaking turtles?
The problem is not that a turtle is impossible to break. Certainly it can be done. Problem is that a game shouldn't drag on for an hour after one team has clearly won. It is super frustrating, and not particularly fun.
The turtle that is the most annoying to break, is when marines have 2 tech points, but nothing else on the map. I played a game last night that lasted one hour after the aliens had the marines locked into 2 tech points. The aliens controlled 6+ rts, had 4-5 onos at any one time, but marines with 3w 3a and jps can out dps an onos.
Either that or a vote to concede feature should be added in.
The problem is not that a turtle is impossible to break. Certainly it can be done. Problem is that a game shouldn't drag on for an hour after one team has clearly won. It is super frustrating, and not particularly fun.
The turtle that is the most annoying to break, is when marines have 2 tech points, but nothing else on the map. I played a game last night that lasted one hour after the aliens had the marines locked into 2 tech points. The aliens controlled 6+ rts, had 4-5 onos at any one time, but marines with 3w 3a and jps can out dps an onos.
Either that or a vote to concede feature should be added in.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
For Aliens. Either mass Onos or get like 2 Onos and mass Gorges for bilebomb.
For Marines. A team of Flamethrowers and JPs is a game ender.
Two Fades can keep the Infantry Portals down with Vortex to prevent marines from reinforcing once the Onos got in.
One or two Gorges can wreck the base from distance or heal the Onos.
The khammander can place crag nests right outside of the marine base with Shifts to provide ongoing pressure and infinite Bile Bombs.
One Enzyme Cloud from Drifters can increase every alien's attack speed by factor 1.5, so power nodes can go down almost instantly if two buffed Onos are on them.
I really don't see what more you can ask for.
It doesn't need a lot of teamwork to pull this off, it just requires the commander or one or two other players on the team to pull their head out of their asses and actually get the idea that it will benefit the team more if not EVERY player goes Onos.
For Marines. A team of Flamethrowers and JPs is a game ender.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
so your saying, a team needs to execute a coordinated attack, to end a game that they already won?
This is the crux of the issue. It frequently takes more coordination and time to finish a game after you have an immense advantage, than it takes to get to the that advantage. Shouldn't it be the other way around?
This is the crux of the issue. It frequently takes more coordination and time to finish a game after you have an immense advantage, than it takes to get to the that advantage. Shouldn't it be the other way around?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Just played a game the other day where Marines came back from having only 1 tech point. If you can't end it you can still lose.
This is the crux of the issue. <b>It frequently takes more coordination and time to finish a game after you have an immense advantage, than it takes to get to the that advantage. Shouldn't it be the other way around?</b><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It only seems that way because the public servers are swamped with new players at the moment. A lot of games I've played recently the teams tend to be quite disorganised at both sides, and players just go at each other randomly until one side gets the upperhand. Then you've got one team turtling up, while the other has no idea how to break te deadlock. It was like this at release, and it's like this again because of the sales.
When people get more experienced, turtling becomes less of an issue. Look at competitive matches. Just have some patience, let the new guys learn the ropes before suggesting new game mechanics.
Everything is cumulative... this is why marine teams that skip a1, mines, and JPs usually get crushed so hard. You can't just skip everything that's important to the early game because something else is great in the extreme late game. We don't need late game features that allow teams who played poorly all game to suddenly turn things around with an OP mechanic, and if it was actually affordable while on 1-2 RTs then it's just going to end up helping teams with good economies even more.
From the winning perspective... excess res can already be translated into an easy finish against a turtle. For aliens you just put a crag/shift/shade farm right outside their base, then spam onos eggs and bonewall traps (or the comm just gets out and you have an extra player). For marines you have unlimited sg/jp/mines, constant nanoshield, and ARCs.
When people get more experienced, turtling becomes less of an issue. Look at competitive matches. Just have some patience, let the new guys learn the ropes before suggesting new game mechanics.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
please don't assume I am a noob.
I play in competitive matches. Competitive matches don't have problems with turtleing because the teams have a good enough understanding of the game to concede when the game is lost.
Clearly, other people don't have the same problem I have with this. if that is the case so be it.
Keep in mind, if you want NS2 to be a healthy game, it will constantly have a lot of new people as well as low engagement players who play rarely. This means if you want them to stick around, they have to be able to have fun. Part of the reason I made this post was that I played a game with 3-4 friends who just bought the game during the sale. We got stuck in a 1.5 hour long game, and they all hated it.
<i>“A common mistake that people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools.†</i>-Douglas Adams
I've given alien teams 8-crag healing stations immediately outside marine start with shifts that inch closer to their base (for onos charge and bilebomb convenience) and watched them still take like 15-30 minutes to crack the shell.
The simple fact is the game doesn't end as elegantly as it should. Aliens should crush marines as easily as marines crush aliens when the tables are turned.
I've given alien teams 8-crag healing stations immediately outside marine start with shifts that inch closer to their base (for onos charge and bilebomb convenience) and watched them still take like 15-30 minutes to crack the shell.
The simple fact is the game doesn't end as elegantly as it should. Aliens should crush marines as easily as marines crush aliens when the tables are turned.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is a skill issue not a game issue. There are many elegant ways to end the game, it's the players that make it painful to finish.
You're not the only one. I <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=125359&hl=" target="_blank">made a topic about it earlier</a> and from what I can see the community is split. Of course there's that 'silent majority' that never give their opinion. Hard to say if they enjoy it. The only real way to know is compare the number of NS2 copies sold to the amount of people who play. Not sure if UWE can capture that info, but if they notice a decline in their casual player base I'd be willing to bet a long end game is one of the reasons.
Some players think a 1.5 hour game is 'epic' and because 1 in 20 result in a comeback they don't want there to be a quick end game.
Personally, I think the exact opposite and I think it's a problem UWE needs to correct. RTS games are built upon territory control. NS2 is part RTS. When one team has pushed the other into a single room, the advantage should be overwhelming. I don't think we're there yet.
Like I said in my prior thread, I only notice this in 12v12 servers so I stopped playing on 12v12 servers. One reason why the issue is so obvious in larger games is because one team of 12 is pushed into a single room. The other has some players dead and some traveling back to the action. The attacking team is always out numbered and usually has to destroy some building that's being constantly welded, all while being lit up from 5 different level 3 weapons, before even entering the base.
New players may not realize this issue is significantly amplified in larger games. They may think that's just the way NS2 matches end. If that's the case, I wouldn't blame them for leaving NS2 behind.
/edit:
All the 'players are just bad' and 'just use coordination' comments don't really apply. Yes, players are bad. Yes, players don't really coordinate or use teamwork too often. Regardless, when one team has cornered the other the advantage should be overwhelming. You shouldn't need to organize 12 pub players to just simply end the game when you own the map.
For example, I basically <b>never </b>see successful turtling in flight control hive, and to a lesser degree, atrium and sub access. On the other hand, Once marines are turtling in datacore it is almost impossible to end the game, and usually requires the comm to sell up. The same phenomena can be seen throughout all the maps. Veil starting point is very turtle friendly, while the other 3 tech points are not. Warehouse on tram allows for extremely effective turtling, while server and repair are terrible for it. Most of the tech rooms are turtle friendly on docking, except for generator.
Its also worth noting that this only applies to marines. Aliens cannot turtle. If you've ever been in a situation where the aliens turtled on one hive for more than 5 minutes, your team was just horrendously bad.
This would also balance things further in that aliens are basically screwed if they don't get a second hive relatively early, whereas marines can safely put off a second CC for a bit.
Don't give any of these stupid game ending buffs people are talking about. It will just make it harder for there to be any comebacks.
Don't give any of these stupid game ending buffs people are talking about. It will just make it harder for there to be any comebacks.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Destroying the power node ends it quicker in my experience.
Don't give any of these stupid game ending buffs people are talking about. It will just make it harder for there to be any comebacks.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The problem is that there currently is no chance for a comeback in 99% of these turtling situations, however the game still doesn't end. The ideal situation is when a game ends within 1-2 minutes of it being unwinnable.
<!--quoteo(post=2052783:date=Dec 29 2012, 01:28 PM:name=AlphaWolf)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (AlphaWolf @ Dec 29 2012, 01:28 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2052783"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Destroying the power node ends it quicker in my experience.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You can hide behind a comm chair. You can't hide behind a power node.
If Marines have one tech point then destroying the comm chair ends the game instantly.
Well let's compare some values shall we? CC's have 3000/1500 while Nodes have 2000/1000 (taken from Wiki). While killing a CC instantly ends the game, it's also placed at the center of the base and almost always surrounded by a multitude of structures. On the other hand, Nodes are usually placed on the outskirts of bases and make for easier targets than the CC. A Node also has significantly less health than a CC.
I don't know about you, but I prefer going for easier targets first.
None of this is even remotely true. Except the part about potentially being surrounded by structures, but that is an alien advantage, not disadvantage.
I don't know about you, but I prefer going for easier targets first.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Marines can rebuild the power node and it happens all the time in these turtle situations. You can also circle strafe around the CC. If you have 3+ Onos then a CC rush is the fastest way to end the game.
Pro Tip: Don't send the Onos in alone.
On the marine side its called Arcs which are cannons that can shoot through walls at everything in range and visible on the map. The Commander just has to place one outside the Hive and scan the Hive Room 24/7 till everything is dead. Or have his soldiers provide vision by peeking into the hive area. Alternatively if your marines can shoot just drop some exos and make short work of everything in there. Remember if you have them down to 1 hive you control all the resource nodes except one so make good use of all the money.
So now that we got the easy part of breaking alien "turtles" out of the way on to marine turtles.
Aliens have bile bombs. They do insane amount of damage and affect a whole area. So just go gorge and bomb everything in range. The marine can´t keep up with welding the structures unless all of them bought welders and then your onoses can easily kill them all if they are welding instead of shooting. And if they shoot your teammates they dont weld so either way they are loosing the game.
And the above poster that mentioned the powernode is right too. In certain Locations its much easier to kill the powernode than the marine base so just bile bomb or lerk spike it down if your onos are too scared to enter the room. Remember power nodes power infantry portals so once they are down the marines can´t respawn till power is restored.