<!--quoteo(post=2050851:date=Dec 24 2012, 11:03 PM:name=Mavick)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mavick @ Dec 24 2012, 11:03 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2050851"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Nobody here is, you're the one who keeps assuming that's what we're saying. What we're saying is it doesn't matter, because the end result is still the same either way: too many people can't enjoy themselves. If people start leaving the server because they can't cope with that individual's skill, I'd rather act to stop 6 people leaving then care about kicking one. It's really that simple.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Now factor into that the "community ban list", you kick that guy because he's too good, he will end up on that list and lazy admins will just copy&paste that list. In the end that one player, who did nothing wrong besides playing the game in a very effective way, ends up being banned on a couple of servers for no fault of his own.
Sure i'm all for "you pay for the server, do what you like", but i really really dislike the "zomg that guy is too good, he's ruining my fun, kick/ban!" attitude because it has already been present in NS1 and annoyed the hell out of me. There is nothing worse then trying to join your favorite server and finding out you got banned for playing too good the night before.
The game lives on it's server communities, the best rounds you can play on popular and well known community servers and not on "UWE Official 16p All maps #166", getting banned from one of the more popular servers and ending up on a list that automatically bans you from a ton of others is equal to locking a player out of an substantial part of the game.
<!--quoteo(post=2050925:date=Dec 25 2012, 05:58 AM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ Dec 25 2012, 05:58 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2050925"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Read every post. Good points on either side of the fence. Matchmaking or some form of it (with a comprehensive point system) would really diminish the chances of what Mavick describes and encounters, from occurring. ::looks at ns2stats::<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Matchmaking will never ever work with NS2. The playerbase is too small and the required playeramount for a functioning round is too high. And that's even ignoring the whole issue of "how to score and rank players".
Even if you got some kind scoring system that's meaningful and fair, the community is too small to supply enough people of different skill tiers to deliver a fluid "matchmaking experience" for everybody. In the end high tier players will end up with mostly empty servers, you gonna have high skill players deluding their score/ranking so they can "pwn noobs" on low tier servers and so on. I simply do not see it working from a practical point of view.
Sure in Starcraft 2 it works really really well, but in Starcraft 2 you only need to match like 2-6 players with similar skill, most of the time only 2 players (as 1on1 is the most popular mode). In NS2 you would need at least to match 12 people with similar skill per round, that's simply not possible with such an low population (compared to something like CoD or Starcraft where you can matchmake people out of a pool of 100.000's of players).
<!--quoteo(post=2051062:date=Dec 25 2012, 07:39 PM:name=Mavick)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mavick @ Dec 25 2012, 07:39 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2051062"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Having a server for 2 months and the hundreds of players that have come across it, and only having 21 bans on it should tell you the averages of coming up against it on a server that's ran like mine.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's an horrible average (a ban nearly every three days?), considering i haven't seen anybody getting kicked/banned in 420 hours of playtime since build 198. Care to name your server so i can stay clear of it?
<!--quoteo(post=2051066:date=Dec 25 2012, 12:59 PM:name=rebirth)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (rebirth @ Dec 25 2012, 12:59 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2051066"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->That's an horrible average (a ban nearly every three days?), considering i haven't seen anybody getting kicked/banned in 420 hours of playtime since build 198. Care to name your server so i can stay clear of it?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Explain to me how that's a horrible average. I said "hundreds" what did you do average it off a hundred? I have no idea how many different people have been on my server but it's probably approaching 1000 if not more. When you have a server that's running full nearly 24/7 you end up dealing with a fair amount of deuchebags as well, as half of those at least are just from that. One ban was also the lone cheater I've caught to this point as well. So again, explain to me how that is bad?
<!--quoteo(post=2051064:date=Dec 25 2012, 12:49 PM:name=eh?)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (eh? @ Dec 25 2012, 12:49 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2051064"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It's disappointing because it shows a large contingent of server operators in an already extremely small community are (to no one's surprise) total sh-i-tbags and only worthy of ridicule, public shaming, and mockery. Whether it's happening often or not is irrelevant. The fact that you think it's a respectable and downright necessary thing to do makes you <strike>look like</strike> a tool.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I love how people over-exaggerate everything to push their points. There's only been like 3 of us who even might actually RUN a server that have said they do it. Hardly a "large contingent". But by all means, if you'd rather spend all your time playing on servers that sit back and let lopsided rofltstomps become normal with boring, non-challenging gameplay being prevalent, knock yourself out, I promise you I won't lose any sleep over it.
Also explain to me which is more a case of being a tool: the person who's thinking only of themselves or the person who's doing what he/she thinks is best for more of the people involved.
<!--quoteo(post=2051066:date=Dec 25 2012, 01:59 PM:name=rebirth)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (rebirth @ Dec 25 2012, 01:59 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2051066"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Now factor into that the "community ban list", you kick that guy because he's too good, he will end up on that list and lazy admins will just copy&paste that list. In the end that one player, who did nothing wrong besides playing the game in a very effective way, ends up being banned on a couple of servers for no fault of his own.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What? If someone is swaying the match outcomes too hard, you can just tell him that and kick him. What does that have to do with the community ban list? I imagine you'd have to put him on the list for him to show up there. Stop treating a kick from some random server hosted by some random guy on the internet as a death sentence to someone's NS2 gaming career. If he comes back and make a big deal out of it to the point where an admin needs to ban him, then he most likely deserves to be on that banlist anyways. If it's just a bad admin, well then there would be unjustified bans regardless so I don't see how this is a bigger issue.
Now if the community banlist automatically names anyone who's ever been kicked from any server for any reason without the need of any substantiated proof, that's a flaw inherent with the list.
<!--quoteo(post=2051141:date=Dec 25 2012, 04:39 PM:name=Makenshi)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Makenshi @ Dec 25 2012, 04:39 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2051141"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What? If someone is swaying the match outcomes too hard, you can just tell him that and kick him. What does that have to do with the community ban list? I imagine you'd have to put him on the list for him to show up there. Stop treating a kick from some random server hosted by some random guy on the internet as a death sentence to someone's NS2 gaming career. If he comes back and make a big deal out of it to the point where an admin needs to ban him, then he most likely deserves to be on that banlist anyways. If it's just a bad admin, well then there would be unjustified bans regardless so I don't see how this is a bigger issue.
Now if the community banlist automatically names anyone who's ever been kicked from any server for any reason without the need of any substantiated proof, that's a flaw inherent with the list.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Except that isn't the point, you say "kick" others say "ban". Just because you take a more reasoned approach to abolish an over-skilled player doesn't mean other people arguing for this will. People will end up on this banlist for just being skilled. Whether it's from ill-informed "hacking" bans, or repeated disruptions of a server, or a rash server admin in a bad mood. You shouldn't focus these poor decisions in a venue which will result in influencing other admins decisions. As I think GORGEous put it earler... "echo chamber".
inb4 people flip-flop.
I still think kicking for high-skill is a completely asinine decision on the part of inexperienced, uninformed, or idiotic admins.
So mavick, kkg1-2-3, 420, victurus' whatever, yo-clan, a$$ma$ter's server (whatever it is), metalgamers, and several other smaller less recognized servers have all done it as well (honestly I just can't recall their names at the moment).
That seems like a significant number of servers to me. All of which seem to (by their own actions of course) approve of skill kicking and or banning.
Spare me your bull###### about being selfish and it being for the good of all the other players. Only a moron would seriously consider that a valid argument for an admin skill kicking / banning. Just admit you have some ego invested in running your server and you're not really interested in doing what is appropriate, fair, or reasonable and no one will be upset when you act accordingly.
Seeing a skilled player in action should push people to do better themselves. I know when there is a skilled player on the opposing team killing me a lot, I'll deliberately seek that player out when I can to try an best them.
As far as kicking a player for being "too good" i think is a bit ridiculous. I do hope you are at least warning the player first. I haven't been kicked or banned yet, but i would be upset if i was kick/banned from a server that i enjoyed playing on.
<!--quoteo(post=2051155:date=Dec 25 2012, 06:35 PM:name=VoodooHex)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (VoodooHex @ Dec 25 2012, 06:35 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2051155"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I do hope you are at least warning the player first.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yeah, if i'm being punished for something I at least want to have the right to know why; a) If I don't know what I'm doing wrong how can I fix it? b) It makes the admin look ######y
While it's rather convenient to default to the "it's my server and I'll do what I want" perspective, I'm not hearing much of it in this thread. If our goal is to reach anything resembling an endpoint (despite the endless circularity on display), this is a step in the right direction. Let's congratulate ourselves for having made at least a feeble gesture in the direction of coherent and productive debate.
Beyond this, I think that most of us can agree that it's in everyone's interests for server administrators to be fair and consistent. I think administrators themselves will agree with this seemingly uncontroversial position, since likable administrators at least encourage and do not preclude enjoyable gaming environments, enjoyable gaming environments promote server usage, and server usage justifies the costs incurred by the administrators who hope to provide others with the very services we're discussing.
On what basis, then, do we measure an administrator's fairness and consistency? Well, beyond the most obvious rules of thumb like "be articulate" or "endeavor to be objective," it is difficult to isolate universal standards insofar as every server comes with its own set of rules. For instance, a "new players only" server should be moderated a bit differently than a "new players welcome" server, which in turn should be moderated quite differently than an "experts only" server. The rules you establish for your server should be enforced with internal regularity, but sometimes these finer points are not globally applicable.
What does this imply for the hypothetical list of abusive players being suggested? It implies that the list needs to be carefully curated with great emphasis given to context-specific infractions when and where they occur. ma$$a$$ter, it is obvious to me that your intentions in creating this list are noble, and though I would disagree even with those who are saying the idea is fine "in theory" (I think it's flawed in theory), I am less inclined to critique your character on account of your idea alone. Should you persist in realizing your goal, I think you would do well to not deconstruct the topic into a binary "this is good" versus "this is bad" debate, but rather address the concerns of your critics. These concerns are real, and many of them can't be so easily brushed aside.
If you hope to create a service like the one being described, you will be adopting a certain measure of responsibility for servers other than your own (whether this responsibility is unbidden or not). In attempting to go above and beyond, you're also assuming the burden of ensuring that your tool isn't misused by administrators who, despite offering a public service, shouldn't have their moments of callous inconsideration go unacknowledged by the community they're a part of. A symbiosis exists between server operator and player in which they're both essential.
With respect to this burden, I highly encourage you to not only carefully regulate who can contribute to your list by forcing administrators to provide you with accurate information about their servers, but make the list visible to the public, and also establish a petition process by which players can appeal should they find themselves on the list. Furthermore, every server administrator contributing to the list should be required to list any server-specific rules which are pertinent to the entries they submit, and you should manually remove any entries which lack sufficient evidence.
Put otherwise, if administrator A hopes to encourage administrators B, C and D that User X is deeply problematic and worth banning, it needs to be the responsibility of administrator A to provide ample evidence. It is now <i>your</i> responsibility to ensure that the entry doesn't persist unless the evidence has been offered. Just as it is a truism that problematic users will exist, it is also a truism that overworked and uninspired administrators will use easily accessible options to cut down the number of "potentially bad" players they'll have to deal with (regardless of whether the players can reasonably be said to have broken any rules, context-specific or otherwise). For this reason, many administrators will casually download banlists while assuming something akin to "I bet this is about 75% accurate--good enough for me!" Of course, the result of this mentality can't be so easily ignored by the rare player unfairly impacted in this way. What's more: if there's a notable likelihood of exceptionally good players being negatively impacted in this way, it is the responsibility of the entire community (if it's at all self-preserving) to make sure this doesn't happen, as good players are valuable assets and often represent the most loyal holdovers from the days of NS1 (i.e., "people worth listening to").
If you are going forward with this idea and also wish to have more unilateral support from within the community (as represented by this thread), it's up to you to introduce sufficient checks and balances into the system such that nobody is afraid they'll be trashed across ten servers simply for having wrecked house in the presence of a vindictive administrator.
Furthermore, it would be fruitful for you to include a checklist of general administration principles somewhere adjacent to your list. You should encourage all administrators to abide by these principles whenever possible. They might include such guidelines as 1) 'endeavor to educate before warning users, and warn users before removing users' or 2) 'only add users to this list when including sufficient evidence of their infractions such that there can be little reasonable doubt as to the user's offenses.'
Additionally important here, though, is the fact that the vast majority of servers aren't advertised as "new players only" or "expert players only," and do in fact tacitly invite a plurality of skill levels. Since a matchmaking system will never really work with NS2, and since most servers do in fact welcome players of all skill levels, it is unreasonable for administrators to expect individual players of superior skill to electively remove themselves from playing environments in which they break no rules (i.e., servers without context-specific rules against players of certain skill levels). So it's not an unjustified concern being expressed here--it's something very much worth being concerned about.
If a server has a "rookies only" rule, it may in fact be prudent for an administrator to remove someone from a top-tier clan who is busy painting the walls red with newbie blood. But this situation doesn't come up often, and it's the administrator's responsibility to advertise the context-specific rules accordingly when it does. Only after it has become a true, persistent problem should an administrator turn to a global blacklist.
More personally, I've played FPS games on and off since 1996. I'm pretty rusty at the moment but am getting into NS2 and loving it now that I have a new rig. I used to play NS1 under a different alias. Already I've played a few rounds where I've gone 60 and 4 (or thereabouts).
When I began playing FPS games online, my ass was routinely handed to me. Because I am of a disposition where I try to figure out how to beat the thing that's beating me, I improved over time. Indeed, I improved despite being dominated to the point where my head spun. That's simply how it works. Players either osmotically absorb superior strategies through passive exposure, or they concertedly endeavor to best the effective strategies of others if they are at all concerned with improving. Under normal circumstances - unless a player is legitimately exploiting or obviously disrupting a gaming environment - there is little good reason to remove someone with superior skill unless it is your goal to damage the community of which that player is part.
<!--quoteo(post=2051144:date=Dec 25 2012, 05:52 PM:name=Omar - The Wire)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Omar - The Wire @ Dec 25 2012, 05:52 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2051144"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I still think kicking for high-skill is a completely asinine decision on the part of inexperienced, uninformed, or idiotic admins.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There's quite a few people, even outside these forums, that completely disagree. Tho I do admire the fact that you continue to try your very best to insult the admins who look after their servers in a way to encourage the majority to keep returning to them.
<!--quoteo(post=2051147:date=Dec 25 2012, 05:59 PM:name=eh?)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (eh? @ Dec 25 2012, 05:59 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2051147"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So mavick, kkg1-2-3, 420, victurus' whatever, yo-clan, a$$ma$ter's server (whatever it is), metalgamers, and several other smaller less recognized servers have all done it as well (honestly I just can't recall their names at the moment).
That seems like a significant number of servers to me. All of which seem to (by their own actions of course) approve of skill kicking and or banning.
Spare me your bull###### about being selfish and it being for the good of all the other players. Only a moron would seriously consider that a valid argument for an admin skill kicking / banning. Just admit you have some ego invested in running your server and you're not really interested in doing what is appropriate, fair, or reasonable and no one will be upset when you act accordingly.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Or you can just admit you're pissed that you were kicked and stop lobbing insults at me. You want me to spare you the bull###### about being selfish, then stop being that way.
On a side observation, it really seems like people only get pissed off when its someone on the Marine side that's doing well.
Case in point:
Was just on Mavick's server (ironically enough), and went 87-7 as alien (next closest alien at 28 kills or so). Mostly as fade, in a long and protracted game with the aliens eventually winning. There were zero complaints from the marine team, despite being a gigantic pain in the ass the entire game.
The next game I went marine, and started off as 32-3. There were 2 people vocally raging out on the other team, and 2 people who dropped into ready room to go spectator.
Conclusion? There's something in the water in this game in where people only tend to get upset when it's the marine side that's doing disproportionately well. To the point that lower player count servers (like the UWE servers) often times flat out die when the marine team wins a game - even if there isn't one player excelling. Marines winning and doing well is somehow significantly more rage inducing than the alien team winning and doing well.
I'm not really advocating singling out good players one way or another, but it seems to me that if people are raging you could probably just force people to go aliens as opposed to banning them. Since no one gives a crap when aliens steamroll, but marines steamrolling is equivalent to punting a baby off a rooftop to most people. Go figure.
What makes you think I'm pissed? This seems pretty standard for badmins like yourself to kick and ban players frivolously as you freely admit to doing. It's just part of the gaming experience at this point.
You trying to pretend like you're doing some noble and respectable work by doing so would annoy me though.
swalkSay hello to my little friend.Join Date: 2011-01-20Member: 78384Members, Squad Five Blue
edited December 2012
Wanted to chime in here as I think it's an important discussion going on here.
Sure it's 100% up to the server owners how they manage their servers. But server ops should also consider the fact that they can potentially hurt the community by kicking people just because they are better then themselves or the rest of the server population.
If you're a good player and you constantly get kicked from servers for that very reason, it can decrease your interest in the game, and these could potentially stop playing the game if they constantly get kicked from servers. I believe it's in the best interest of the community AND the server owners to have everyone feeling welcome in game. Seeing that some people have been kicked for having high K/D ratios (and "hacking".. lol no hacks in ns2 atm), is very sad and the server owner did a big mistake by doing that, <b>IF</b> they wish to preserve the community around the game, and their server. That is if they are not running a "NOOBS ONLY" server, if that is the goal of your server, you should make it clear from the server name.
I'd recommend server OPs to not kick or ban people just because they are outplaying the other team, surely it can be frustrating to die over and over, but playing against people that are better than yourself is the only way to really improve your own play. This is something that should be desired by server OPs to improve the level of play throughout the community and on their server, higher level of play is generally more fun, everyone can contribute in their own way depending on their own skill level and understanding of the game.
If you simply kick everyone that's good from your server, the remains of your server have no one to really learn from, and you're left with a very low level of play that will get really boring, really fast. And the remaining people here will also potentially lose interest in the game for that reason.
I think I could boil my post down to: THINK BEFORE YOU BAN. Grow a community, don't kill it.
Disclaimer: I think the following idea is terrible in concept, but it's still not as terrible for banning players (from everything) on the basis of simply being good.
Building off the above in the idea that people don't rage when they lose to aliens - why not create a mod that essentially bans people from playing on a certain team? Essentially a marine-only ban list (can't join marines when on it) to prevent certain players from causing massive rage on the server. It's not anywhere near as harsh as banning people, and seemingly addresses the upset people problem. It makes the alien/marine pub disparity even worse for that particular server, but somehow that's a more acceptable status quo to people.
Restating the disclaimer: Giving in to the people who whine about good marines is really dumb, and the burden should be on the terrible aliens to adapt and get over it. But if server admins are so concerned about "doing the best for the majority" rather than what's actually the right thing, then at least a compromise can be made.
<!--quoteo(post=2051188:date=Dec 25 2012, 08:49 PM:name=eh?)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (eh? @ Dec 25 2012, 08:49 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2051188"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What makes you think I'm pissed? This seems pretty standard for badmins like yourself to kick and ban players frivolously as you freely admit to doing. It's just part of the gaming experience at this point.
You trying to pretend like you're doing some noble and respectable work by doing so would annoy me though.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Then I am happy to annoy you :)
Also, if I were such a bad admin my server wouldn't be nearly as popular as it is.
<!--quoteo(post=2051179:date=Dec 25 2012, 07:13 PM:name=Mavick)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mavick @ Dec 25 2012, 07:13 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2051179"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->There's quite a few people, even outside these forums, that completely disagree.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Anecdotal at best.
<!--quoteo(post=2051179:date=Dec 25 2012, 07:13 PM:name=Mavick)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mavick @ Dec 25 2012, 07:13 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2051179"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Tho I do admire the fact that you continue to try your very best to insult the admins who look after their servers in a way to encourage the majority to keep returning to them.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> If I was trying my "very best" to be insulting you, it'd be pretty obvious.
Keep taking peoples continued, stringent disagreements with administrators arbitrarily capping the skill-field their players face as insults, we'll keep watching as the players subjected to this wallow in mediocrity as they spend time assuming the little skill the see is hacking.
<!--quoteo(post=2051218:date=Dec 25 2012, 11:02 PM:name=Mavick)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mavick @ Dec 25 2012, 11:02 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2051218"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Then I am happy to annoy you :)
Also, if I were such a bad admin my server wouldn't be nearly as popular as it is.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Bravo you have a popular server... now can you just admit that your insistence on banning high skill level people is effectively cutting you off from that corner in the ns2 community.
People tend to not want to join a server when they don't like the administration. Not to mention, but reputations spread fast in such a small community.
can't believe i read the whole thing, but i think he's exceptionally calm for a poster. he's... almost like a bot!
i see that the amount of players that you guys have is giving you too much freedom to just kick people whenever you want. would you like to admin my region's 16 servers full of 0 people?!
you wouldn't even have to kick... because <b>they're all empty</b>!
<!--quoteo(post=2050436:date=Dec 23 2012, 08:05 PM:name=GORGEous)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GORGEous @ Dec 23 2012, 08:05 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2050436"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If it is your own private server, go ahead and ban people for whatever reason. I've seen server operators ban people for all kinds of stupid reasons (too bad, too good, too cheesy, wearing clan tags, killing an admin, winning, losing, and just about every other action possible in an fps). The last thing I want is a congregate of stupid admins banning people and using other stupid admins' bans as justification for more banning.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
/thread
IMHO
Too many thoughtless, lazy server admins will simply import any tripe the find on a "community ban list". It will rapidly become a popularity contest rather than a useful tool. All you need is one large enough "community" to decide that they don't like [x player] or [y clan] and boom, they wind up banned across a large selection of servers.
<!--quoteo(post=2051257:date=Dec 26 2012, 02:03 AM:name=Side1Bu2Rnz9)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Side1Bu2Rnz9 @ Dec 26 2012, 02:03 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2051257"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Bravo you have a popular server... now can you just admit that your insistence on banning high skill level people is effectively cutting you off from that corner in the ns2 community.
People tend to not want to join a server when they don't like the administration. Not to mention, but reputations spread fast in such a small community.
Have fun gaming in skill level stagnation.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I can admit that it might cut me off from some of the self-righteous ###### that seem to post here, sure, but I don't care. All I care about is when I look at my server, see at least half of the names that play there every day as well as new names coming by every day. You're never going to make everybody happy in all things, and I'm more then happy myself keeping newer players coming to my server mixed in with a good group of players that focus on teaching them and giving a middle finger to the people that think they know better that continue to miss one of the more vital points from this discussion because their too fixated on themselves. But sadly, that's pretty much what society as a whole has become anyway.
<!--quoteo(post=2051232:date=Dec 26 2012, 12:13 AM:name=Omar - The Wire)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Omar - The Wire @ Dec 26 2012, 12:13 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2051232"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Anecdotal at best.
If I was trying my "very best" to be insulting you, it'd be pretty obvious.
Keep taking peoples continued, stringent disagreements with administrators arbitrarily capping the skill-field their players face as insults, we'll keep watching as the players subjected to this wallow in mediocrity as they spend time assuming the little skill the see is hacking.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm completely happy doing that, because the attitudes such as yours are not something I want to see on a daily basis. I've been there, it was fun for a time. At some point I realized all it really was was being a deuchebag. Truth is, there actually are some pretty good players that do frequent it, but they don't carry the "know it all" and "look at me, i'm an all-star" attitude, they garner their respect from the other players by helping them, and not being complete ######s in the process. If that doesn't sound like a good place to play, I don't know what else to tell you. Grow up maybe?
Although I may or may not agree 100% with some people on view points, some VERY great points have been voiced, and NousWanderer- very elegantly put it, there is indeed a real need to make sure what is on the list is a valid complaint and not just diarrhea of the keyboard.
My initial thought/hope was to have the "evidence" of why that player was removed by the server operator, or in the case of the public player added list why that player needed to be removed, displayed on a detailed expansion of the steam ID. This would be mostly self evident to server operators who review the reasons why the the ID is on the list, key note: WHO REVIEW..... Being some admins may not actually do as the list was designed (review and make an educated choice as to what ID they choose to remove), It may be more reasonable to have a review system with moderators. This moderator teams job is simply to sniff out BS additions to the list and flag them for review. Review by who? I have yet to decided how best to implement that.. Suggestions open, to modifications of this idea or propositions of another.
This kicking for high skill is really disappointing. I play 99% of the time on official servers so I really wasn't aware this many servers did this. All I hope is you really good guys don't stop playing pub games. A lot of people including myself enjoy the challenge.
Also sorry If you said this but what is your server mavick? I looked and don't see it mentioned.
It's not hard to spot, it's named after me lol. Mavick's Pub - All Official. I hadn't really put the exact name out there because I didn't want to try to appear that I was using this thread as an advertisment.
Just don't over-react to what's been said. I've said several times I don't do it that often, but I will do it if it causes people to start leaving the server, and that's the only reason I do it. Just look at Jamesearljonos, he regularly goes on there with 50+ kills as a marine, and I don't think I've kicked him once, tho I do give him alot of ###### if it starts looking like he's just trying to get a nice scoreboard but not exactly help his team win.
<!--quoteo(post=2051187:date=Dec 25 2012, 09:44 PM:name=JAMESEARLJONOS)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (JAMESEARLJONOS @ Dec 25 2012, 09:44 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2051187"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm not really advocating singling out good players one way or another, but it seems to me that if people are raging you could probably just force people to go aliens as opposed to banning them. Since no one gives a crap when aliens steamroll, but marines steamrolling is equivalent to punting a baby off a rooftop to most people. Go figure.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree with this. Honestly though it should be the players responsibility to switch between sides. I understand some prefer 1 side to the other but if you (speaking in general) are rofl stomping 1 side round after round I think MOST people will find the experience not fun after a while. Giving both teams some love I think goes along way in making the server a still fun place to be if it has 1 or 2 people who are just that much better then any one. Also if you are one of these 10:1 players I would suggest also being one of the last ones to join a team to prevent team stacking as much as possible. Every one should appreciate a good ass kicking some players can give once in a while. If they can't I don't think NS2 is the game for them.
<!--quoteo(post=2051371:date=Dec 26 2012, 11:05 AM:name=Mavick)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mavick @ Dec 26 2012, 11:05 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2051371"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Just don't over-react to what's been said. I've said several times I don't do it that often, but I will do it if it causes people to start leaving the server, and that's the only reason I do it. Just look at Jamesearljonos, he regularly goes on there with 50+ kills as a marine, and I don't think I've kicked him once, tho I do give him alot of ###### if it starts looking like he's just trying to get a nice scoreboard but not exactly help his team win.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yeah james and his shotgun are a real PITA LOL! :)
SpoogeThunderbolt missile in your cheeriosJoin Date: 2002-01-25Member: 67Members
If there was a persistent K/D ratio record based on your ID and a filter setup, then server admins could set whatever range they want for each server.
What are the downsides to this? Any way this is exploited?
Seems like it would be a decent incentive for those who want to actively improve their skills while allowing for a few "safe" playgrounds for the occasional player.
<!--quoteo(post=2051147:date=Dec 25 2012, 07:59 PM:name=eh?)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (eh? @ Dec 25 2012, 07:59 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2051147"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So mavick, kkg1-2-3, 420, victurus' whatever, yo-clan, a$$ma$ter's server (whatever it is), metalgamers, and several other smaller less recognized servers have all done it as well (honestly I just can't recall their names at the moment).
That seems like a significant number of servers to me. All of which seem to (by their own actions of course) approve of skill kicking and or banning.
Spare me your bull###### about being selfish and it being for the good of all the other players. Only a moron would seriously consider that a valid argument for an admin skill kicking / banning. Just admit you have some ego invested in running your server and you're not really interested in doing what is appropriate, fair, or reasonable and no one will be upset when you act accordingly.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm very surprised to see yo-clan in this list. I've been playing on their server since the early days of NS1 and they are extremely supportive of the game, have built a great community around the games. They encourage community members to help new players and I've never seen anyone kicked or banned for being too skilled, and I'd love to know where you've got that from!
They issue numerous warnings before kicking and banning is a last resort. That said, if people aren't playing as part of a team to the point it's causing issues or are rude/racist/trolling etc. then they quite rightly kick/ban, but even then they will issue warnings.
I was pretty sure he was full of ###### when he concocted that list anyway. Apparently he's run into trouble on those as well as mine, but you know, the problem isn't him, it's all of us "bad admins".
Kouji_SanSr. Hινε UÏкεεÏεг - EUPT DeputyThe NetherlandsJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
Alright and we're done here. The topic has been addressed and going on this offramp, if you look to the left we can see Derailing topics and the town of Getting Personal is up to the right about a Km down the road
Comments
Now factor into that the "community ban list", you kick that guy because he's too good, he will end up on that list and lazy admins will just copy&paste that list. In the end that one player, who did nothing wrong besides playing the game in a very effective way, ends up being banned on a couple of servers for no fault of his own.
Sure i'm all for "you pay for the server, do what you like", but i really really dislike the "zomg that guy is too good, he's ruining my fun, kick/ban!" attitude because it has already been present in NS1 and annoyed the hell out of me. There is nothing worse then trying to join your favorite server and finding out you got banned for playing too good the night before.
The game lives on it's server communities, the best rounds you can play on popular and well known community servers and not on "UWE Official 16p All maps #166", getting banned from one of the more popular servers and ending up on a list that automatically bans you from a ton of others is equal to locking a player out of an substantial part of the game.
<!--quoteo(post=2050925:date=Dec 25 2012, 05:58 AM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ Dec 25 2012, 05:58 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2050925"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Read every post. Good points on either side of the fence.
Matchmaking or some form of it (with a comprehensive point system) would really diminish the chances of what Mavick describes and encounters, from occurring.
::looks at ns2stats::<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Matchmaking will never ever work with NS2. The playerbase is too small and the required playeramount for a functioning round is too high. And that's even ignoring the whole issue of "how to score and rank players".
Even if you got some kind scoring system that's meaningful and fair, the community is too small to supply enough people of different skill tiers to deliver a fluid "matchmaking experience" for everybody. In the end high tier players will end up with mostly empty servers, you gonna have high skill players deluding their score/ranking so they can "pwn noobs" on low tier servers and so on. I simply do not see it working from a practical point of view.
Sure in Starcraft 2 it works really really well, but in Starcraft 2 you only need to match like 2-6 players with similar skill, most of the time only 2 players (as 1on1 is the most popular mode). In NS2 you would need at least to match 12 people with similar skill per round, that's simply not possible with such an low population (compared to something like CoD or Starcraft where you can matchmake people out of a pool of 100.000's of players).
<!--quoteo(post=2051062:date=Dec 25 2012, 07:39 PM:name=Mavick)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mavick @ Dec 25 2012, 07:39 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2051062"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Having a server for 2 months and the hundreds of players that have come across it, and only having 21 bans on it should tell you the averages of coming up against it on a server that's ran like mine.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's an horrible average (a ban nearly every three days?), considering i haven't seen anybody getting kicked/banned in 420 hours of playtime since build 198. Care to name your server so i can stay clear of it?
Explain to me how that's a horrible average. I said "hundreds" what did you do average it off a hundred? I have no idea how many different people have been on my server but it's probably approaching 1000 if not more. When you have a server that's running full nearly 24/7 you end up dealing with a fair amount of deuchebags as well, as half of those at least are just from that. One ban was also the lone cheater I've caught to this point as well. So again, explain to me how that is bad?
I love how people over-exaggerate everything to push their points. There's only been like 3 of us who even might actually RUN a server that have said they do it. Hardly a "large contingent". But by all means, if you'd rather spend all your time playing on servers that sit back and let lopsided rofltstomps become normal with boring, non-challenging gameplay being prevalent, knock yourself out, I promise you I won't lose any sleep over it.
Also explain to me which is more a case of being a tool: the person who's thinking only of themselves or the person who's doing what he/she thinks is best for more of the people involved.
What? If someone is swaying the match outcomes too hard, you can just tell him that and kick him. What does that have to do with the community ban list? I imagine you'd have to put him on the list for him to show up there. Stop treating a kick from some random server hosted by some random guy on the internet as a death sentence to someone's NS2 gaming career. If he comes back and make a big deal out of it to the point where an admin needs to ban him, then he most likely deserves to be on that banlist anyways. If it's just a bad admin, well then there would be unjustified bans regardless so I don't see how this is a bigger issue.
Now if the community banlist automatically names anyone who's ever been kicked from any server for any reason without the need of any substantiated proof, that's a flaw inherent with the list.
Now if the community banlist automatically names anyone who's ever been kicked from any server for any reason without the need of any substantiated proof, that's a flaw inherent with the list.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Except that isn't the point, you say "kick" others say "ban". Just because you take a more reasoned approach to abolish an over-skilled player doesn't mean other people arguing for this will. People will end up on this banlist for just being skilled. Whether it's from ill-informed "hacking" bans, or repeated disruptions of a server, or a rash server admin in a bad mood. You shouldn't focus these poor decisions in a venue which will result in influencing other admins decisions. As I think GORGEous put it earler... "echo chamber".
inb4 people flip-flop.
I still think kicking for high-skill is a completely asinine decision on the part of inexperienced, uninformed, or idiotic admins.
mavick,
kkg1-2-3,
420,
victurus' whatever,
yo-clan,
a$$ma$ter's server (whatever it is),
metalgamers,
and several other smaller less recognized servers have all done it as well (honestly I just can't recall their names at the moment).
That seems like a significant number of servers to me. All of which seem to (by their own actions of course) approve of skill kicking and or banning.
Spare me your bull###### about being selfish and it being for the good of all the other players. Only a moron would seriously consider that a valid argument for an admin skill kicking / banning. Just admit you have some ego invested in running your server and you're not really interested in doing what is appropriate, fair, or reasonable and no one will be upset when you act accordingly.
As far as kicking a player for being "too good" i think is a bit ridiculous. I do hope you are at least warning the player first. I haven't been kicked or banned yet, but i would be upset if i was kick/banned from a server that i enjoyed playing on.
Yeah, if i'm being punished for something I at least want to have the right to know why;
a) If I don't know what I'm doing wrong how can I fix it?
b) It makes the admin look ######y
Beyond this, I think that most of us can agree that it's in everyone's interests for server administrators to be fair and consistent. I think administrators themselves will agree with this seemingly uncontroversial position, since likable administrators at least encourage and do not preclude enjoyable gaming environments, enjoyable gaming environments promote server usage, and server usage justifies the costs incurred by the administrators who hope to provide others with the very services we're discussing.
On what basis, then, do we measure an administrator's fairness and consistency? Well, beyond the most obvious rules of thumb like "be articulate" or "endeavor to be objective," it is difficult to isolate universal standards insofar as every server comes with its own set of rules. For instance, a "new players only" server should be moderated a bit differently than a "new players welcome" server, which in turn should be moderated quite differently than an "experts only" server. The rules you establish for your server should be enforced with internal regularity, but sometimes these finer points are not globally applicable.
What does this imply for the hypothetical list of abusive players being suggested? It implies that the list needs to be carefully curated with great emphasis given to context-specific infractions when and where they occur. ma$$a$$ter, it is obvious to me that your intentions in creating this list are noble, and though I would disagree even with those who are saying the idea is fine "in theory" (I think it's flawed in theory), I am less inclined to critique your character on account of your idea alone. Should you persist in realizing your goal, I think you would do well to not deconstruct the topic into a binary "this is good" versus "this is bad" debate, but rather address the concerns of your critics. These concerns are real, and many of them can't be so easily brushed aside.
If you hope to create a service like the one being described, you will be adopting a certain measure of responsibility for servers other than your own (whether this responsibility is unbidden or not). In attempting to go above and beyond, you're also assuming the burden of ensuring that your tool isn't misused by administrators who, despite offering a public service, shouldn't have their moments of callous inconsideration go unacknowledged by the community they're a part of. A symbiosis exists between server operator and player in which they're both essential.
With respect to this burden, I highly encourage you to not only carefully regulate who can contribute to your list by forcing administrators to provide you with accurate information about their servers, but make the list visible to the public, and also establish a petition process by which players can appeal should they find themselves on the list. Furthermore, every server administrator contributing to the list should be required to list any server-specific rules which are pertinent to the entries they submit, and you should manually remove any entries which lack sufficient evidence.
Put otherwise, if administrator A hopes to encourage administrators B, C and D that User X is deeply problematic and worth banning, it needs to be the responsibility of administrator A to provide ample evidence. It is now <i>your</i> responsibility to ensure that the entry doesn't persist unless the evidence has been offered. Just as it is a truism that problematic users will exist, it is also a truism that overworked and uninspired administrators will use easily accessible options to cut down the number of "potentially bad" players they'll have to deal with (regardless of whether the players can reasonably be said to have broken any rules, context-specific or otherwise). For this reason, many administrators will casually download banlists while assuming something akin to "I bet this is about 75% accurate--good enough for me!" Of course, the result of this mentality can't be so easily ignored by the rare player unfairly impacted in this way. What's more: if there's a notable likelihood of exceptionally good players being negatively impacted in this way, it is the responsibility of the entire community (if it's at all self-preserving) to make sure this doesn't happen, as good players are valuable assets and often represent the most loyal holdovers from the days of NS1 (i.e., "people worth listening to").
If you are going forward with this idea and also wish to have more unilateral support from within the community (as represented by this thread), it's up to you to introduce sufficient checks and balances into the system such that nobody is afraid they'll be trashed across ten servers simply for having wrecked house in the presence of a vindictive administrator.
Furthermore, it would be fruitful for you to include a checklist of general administration principles somewhere adjacent to your list. You should encourage all administrators to abide by these principles whenever possible. They might include such guidelines as 1) 'endeavor to educate before warning users, and warn users before removing users' or 2) 'only add users to this list when including sufficient evidence of their infractions such that there can be little reasonable doubt as to the user's offenses.'
Additionally important here, though, is the fact that the vast majority of servers aren't advertised as "new players only" or "expert players only," and do in fact tacitly invite a plurality of skill levels. Since a matchmaking system will never really work with NS2, and since most servers do in fact welcome players of all skill levels, it is unreasonable for administrators to expect individual players of superior skill to electively remove themselves from playing environments in which they break no rules (i.e., servers without context-specific rules against players of certain skill levels). So it's not an unjustified concern being expressed here--it's something very much worth being concerned about.
If a server has a "rookies only" rule, it may in fact be prudent for an administrator to remove someone from a top-tier clan who is busy painting the walls red with newbie blood. But this situation doesn't come up often, and it's the administrator's responsibility to advertise the context-specific rules accordingly when it does. Only after it has become a true, persistent problem should an administrator turn to a global blacklist.
More personally, I've played FPS games on and off since 1996. I'm pretty rusty at the moment but am getting into NS2 and loving it now that I have a new rig. I used to play NS1 under a different alias. Already I've played a few rounds where I've gone 60 and 4 (or thereabouts).
When I began playing FPS games online, my ass was routinely handed to me. Because I am of a disposition where I try to figure out how to beat the thing that's beating me, I improved over time. Indeed, I improved despite being dominated to the point where my head spun. That's simply how it works. Players either osmotically absorb superior strategies through passive exposure, or they concertedly endeavor to best the effective strategies of others if they are at all concerned with improving. Under normal circumstances - unless a player is legitimately exploiting or obviously disrupting a gaming environment - there is little good reason to remove someone with superior skill unless it is your goal to damage the community of which that player is part.
There's quite a few people, even outside these forums, that completely disagree. Tho I do admire the fact that you continue to try your very best to insult the admins who look after their servers in a way to encourage the majority to keep returning to them.
<!--quoteo(post=2051147:date=Dec 25 2012, 05:59 PM:name=eh?)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (eh? @ Dec 25 2012, 05:59 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2051147"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So
mavick,
kkg1-2-3,
420,
victurus' whatever,
yo-clan,
a$$ma$ter's server (whatever it is),
metalgamers,
and several other smaller less recognized servers have all done it as well (honestly I just can't recall their names at the moment).
That seems like a significant number of servers to me. All of which seem to (by their own actions of course) approve of skill kicking and or banning.
Spare me your bull###### about being selfish and it being for the good of all the other players. Only a moron would seriously consider that a valid argument for an admin skill kicking / banning. Just admit you have some ego invested in running your server and you're not really interested in doing what is appropriate, fair, or reasonable and no one will be upset when you act accordingly.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Or you can just admit you're pissed that you were kicked and stop lobbing insults at me. You want me to spare you the bull###### about being selfish, then stop being that way.
Case in point:
Was just on Mavick's server (ironically enough), and went 87-7 as alien (next closest alien at 28 kills or so). Mostly as fade, in a long and protracted game with the aliens eventually winning. There were zero complaints from the marine team, despite being a gigantic pain in the ass the entire game.
The next game I went marine, and started off as 32-3. There were 2 people vocally raging out on the other team, and 2 people who dropped into ready room to go spectator.
Conclusion? There's something in the water in this game in where people only tend to get upset when it's the marine side that's doing disproportionately well. To the point that lower player count servers (like the UWE servers) often times flat out die when the marine team wins a game - even if there isn't one player excelling. Marines winning and doing well is somehow significantly more rage inducing than the alien team winning and doing well.
I'm not really advocating singling out good players one way or another, but it seems to me that if people are raging you could probably just force people to go aliens as opposed to banning them. Since no one gives a crap when aliens steamroll, but marines steamrolling is equivalent to punting a baby off a rooftop to most people. Go figure.
You trying to pretend like you're doing some noble and respectable work by doing so would annoy me though.
Sure it's 100% up to the server owners how they manage their servers.
But server ops should also consider the fact that they can potentially hurt the community by kicking people just because they are better then themselves or the rest of the server population.
If you're a good player and you constantly get kicked from servers for that very reason, it can decrease your interest in the game, and these could potentially stop playing the game if they constantly get kicked from servers.
I believe it's in the best interest of the community AND the server owners to have everyone feeling welcome in game.
Seeing that some people have been kicked for having high K/D ratios (and "hacking".. lol no hacks in ns2 atm), is very sad and the server owner did a big mistake by doing that, <b>IF</b> they wish to preserve the community around the game, and their server. That is if they are not running a "NOOBS ONLY" server, if that is the goal of your server, you should make it clear from the server name.
I'd recommend server OPs to not kick or ban people just because they are outplaying the other team, surely it can be frustrating to die over and over, but playing against people that are better than yourself is the only way to really improve your own play. This is something that should be desired by server OPs to improve the level of play throughout the community and on their server, higher level of play is generally more fun, everyone can contribute in their own way depending on their own skill level and understanding of the game.
If you simply kick everyone that's good from your server, the remains of your server have no one to really learn from, and you're left with a very low level of play that will get really boring, really fast. And the remaining people here will also potentially lose interest in the game for that reason.
I think I could boil my post down to:
THINK BEFORE YOU BAN. Grow a community, don't kill it.
Building off the above in the idea that people don't rage when they lose to aliens - why not create a mod that essentially bans people from playing on a certain team? Essentially a marine-only ban list (can't join marines when on it) to prevent certain players from causing massive rage on the server. It's not anywhere near as harsh as banning people, and seemingly addresses the upset people problem. It makes the alien/marine pub disparity even worse for that particular server, but somehow that's a more acceptable status quo to people.
Restating the disclaimer: Giving in to the people who whine about good marines is really dumb, and the burden should be on the terrible aliens to adapt and get over it. But if server admins are so concerned about "doing the best for the majority" rather than what's actually the right thing, then at least a compromise can be made.
You trying to pretend like you're doing some noble and respectable work by doing so would annoy me though.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Then I am happy to annoy you :)
Also, if I were such a bad admin my server wouldn't be nearly as popular as it is.
<!--quoteo(post=2051179:date=Dec 25 2012, 07:13 PM:name=Mavick)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mavick @ Dec 25 2012, 07:13 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2051179"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Tho I do admire the fact that you continue to try your very best to insult the admins who look after their servers in a way to encourage the majority to keep returning to them.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If I was trying my "very best" to be insulting you, it'd be pretty obvious.
Keep taking peoples continued, stringent disagreements with administrators arbitrarily capping the skill-field their players face as insults, we'll keep watching as the players subjected to this wallow in mediocrity as they spend time assuming the little skill the see is hacking.
Also, if I were such a bad admin my server wouldn't be nearly as popular as it is.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Bravo you have a popular server... now can you just admit that your insistence on banning high skill level people is effectively cutting you off from that corner in the ns2 community.
People tend to not want to join a server when they don't like the administration. Not to mention, but reputations spread fast in such a small community.
Have fun gaming in skill level stagnation.
can't believe i read the whole thing, but i think he's exceptionally calm for a poster. he's... almost like a bot!
i see that the amount of players that you guys have is giving you too much freedom to just kick people whenever you want. would you like to admin my region's 16 servers full of 0 people?!
you wouldn't even have to kick... because <b>they're all empty</b>!
/thread
IMHO
Too many thoughtless, lazy server admins will simply import any tripe the find on a "community ban list". It will rapidly become a popularity contest rather than a useful tool. All you need is one large enough "community" to decide that they don't like [x player] or [y clan] and boom, they wind up banned across a large selection of servers.
People tend to not want to join a server when they don't like the administration. Not to mention, but reputations spread fast in such a small community.
Have fun gaming in skill level stagnation.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I can admit that it might cut me off from some of the self-righteous ###### that seem to post here, sure, but I don't care. All I care about is when I look at my server, see at least half of the names that play there every day as well as new names coming by every day. You're never going to make everybody happy in all things, and I'm more then happy myself keeping newer players coming to my server mixed in with a good group of players that focus on teaching them and giving a middle finger to the people that think they know better that continue to miss one of the more vital points from this discussion because their too fixated on themselves. But sadly, that's pretty much what society as a whole has become anyway.
If I was trying my "very best" to be insulting you, it'd be pretty obvious.
Keep taking peoples continued, stringent disagreements with administrators arbitrarily capping the skill-field their players face as insults, we'll keep watching as the players subjected to this wallow in mediocrity as they spend time assuming the little skill the see is hacking.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm completely happy doing that, because the attitudes such as yours are not something I want to see on a daily basis. I've been there, it was fun for a time. At some point I realized all it really was was being a deuchebag. Truth is, there actually are some pretty good players that do frequent it, but they don't carry the "know it all" and "look at me, i'm an all-star" attitude, they garner their respect from the other players by helping them, and not being complete ######s in the process. If that doesn't sound like a good place to play, I don't know what else to tell you. Grow up maybe?
My initial thought/hope was to have the "evidence" of why that player was removed by the server operator, or in the case of the public player added list why that player needed to be removed, displayed on a detailed expansion of the steam ID. This would be mostly self evident to server operators who review the reasons why the the ID is on the list, key note: WHO REVIEW..... Being some admins may not actually do as the list was designed (review and make an educated choice as to what ID they choose to remove), It may be more reasonable to have a review system with moderators. This moderator teams job is simply to sniff out BS additions to the list and flag them for review. Review by who? I have yet to decided how best to implement that.. Suggestions open, to modifications of this idea or propositions of another.
<!--sizeo:4--><span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><b>CONSTRUCTIVE thoughts below, please ..</b><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
Also sorry If you said this but what is your server mavick? I looked and don't see it mentioned.
Just don't over-react to what's been said. I've said several times I don't do it that often, but I will do it if it causes people to start leaving the server, and that's the only reason I do it. Just look at Jamesearljonos, he regularly goes on there with 50+ kills as a marine, and I don't think I've kicked him once, tho I do give him alot of ###### if it starts looking like he's just trying to get a nice scoreboard but not exactly help his team win.
I agree with this. Honestly though it should be the players responsibility to switch between sides. I understand some prefer 1 side to the other but if you (speaking in general) are rofl stomping 1 side round after round I think MOST people will find the experience not fun after a while. Giving both teams some love I think goes along way in making the server a still fun place to be if it has 1 or 2 people who are just that much better then any one. Also if you are one of these 10:1 players I would suggest also being one of the last ones to join a team to prevent team stacking as much as possible. Every one should appreciate a good ass kicking some players can give once in a while. If they can't I don't think NS2 is the game for them.
<!--quoteo(post=2051371:date=Dec 26 2012, 11:05 AM:name=Mavick)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mavick @ Dec 26 2012, 11:05 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2051371"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Just don't over-react to what's been said. I've said several times I don't do it that often, but I will do it if it causes people to start leaving the server, and that's the only reason I do it. Just look at Jamesearljonos, he regularly goes on there with 50+ kills as a marine, and I don't think I've kicked him once, tho I do give him alot of ###### if it starts looking like he's just trying to get a nice scoreboard but not exactly help his team win.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah james and his shotgun are a real PITA LOL! :)
What are the downsides to this? Any way this is exploited?
Seems like it would be a decent incentive for those who want to actively improve their skills while allowing for a few "safe" playgrounds for the occasional player.
Just a thought.
mavick,
kkg1-2-3,
420,
victurus' whatever,
yo-clan,
a$$ma$ter's server (whatever it is),
metalgamers,
and several other smaller less recognized servers have all done it as well (honestly I just can't recall their names at the moment).
That seems like a significant number of servers to me. All of which seem to (by their own actions of course) approve of skill kicking and or banning.
Spare me your bull###### about being selfish and it being for the good of all the other players. Only a moron would seriously consider that a valid argument for an admin skill kicking / banning. Just admit you have some ego invested in running your server and you're not really interested in doing what is appropriate, fair, or reasonable and no one will be upset when you act accordingly.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm very surprised to see yo-clan in this list. I've been playing on their server since the early days of NS1 and they are extremely supportive of the game, have built a great community around the games. They encourage community members to help new players and I've never seen anyone kicked or banned for being too skilled, and I'd love to know where you've got that from!
They issue numerous warnings before kicking and banning is a last resort. That said, if people aren't playing as part of a team to the point it's causing issues or are rude/racist/trolling etc. then they quite rightly kick/ban, but even then they will issue warnings.