Are you sure you havent skill banned anyone already? Didnt you say you've banned some cheaters? I wouldnt be surprised if they were not actually cheating, however I dont actually know what server(s) you even host/admin.
<!--quoteo(post=2050422:date=Dec 23 2012, 05:29 PM:name=ma$$a$$ter)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ma$$a$$ter @ Dec 23 2012, 05:29 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2050422"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Then at some point you have to realize that your "skill" is far beyond the players of the server you are on, and that it's now up to you to act like an adult and A) Find a new server with more competition, B) Take the comm chair, or C) Tone down your game play - How is it fun to sit there and spank newbies anyway? Other then to stoke your own personal E-peen..<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Seriously what the ###### is this logic? Its adult behaviour to intentionally underperform? Never read such bull###### in my life. If I. and I bet most players in this game join a team they want to win the game. Its not a reasonable behaviour to intentionally die, your pretty much letting your own team down on purpose. Noone with any sense for competition will ever do this.
The idea for competition nowadays is just horrific. People cant accept others being better then them and rather start crying instead of trying to improve themselfes. And this idiotical attitude gets supported by such silly projects like this banlist.
Its your right to ban everyone from your server for whatever reason(even if theyre complete bullcrap). You will have to endure a crying lowskilled playerbase demanding to ban everyone, noone else. But to ban a guy from most servers for being a good player just shows clearly how toxic and unnecessary a banlist is. And dont start with "proper researches" maybe 5% of Admins will actually do that, while other just go with your silly mass=correct logic and ban everyone with enough reports due to lazyness. A guy can get banned from 20 servers for trying his best to win the game for his team. Nice one, thats exactly what this game needs...
Clearly "acting like an adult" is playing terrible on purpose to make people not feel bad. Having responsibility for being terrible and improving is obviously too much to ask of people.
If someone is *so good* at a game they they become 'godlike' and no one can best them on the field of battle, then that player is probably best to find a new game to play. If you can beat everyone at a game, what fun is that? You're literally beaten the game. There's no challenge. It's like a major league player playing in pick-up games.
Server operators run their servers to provide all those who use it with a fun gameplay experience. I can totally respect any server operator who will get involved when one person is negatively affecting the fun over all the other players. This is also why some servers require that clans don't stack teams on their public server - since it just tosses game balance out the window. We had another thread in here with a server operator talking about kicking off all the 'rookies', for sake of 'advanced' players. How is this any different?
I think people are over-reacting though. The server operator in this thread is talking about principles behind his actions.
However, bottom line is that it's their servers to do as they wish. If they want to take part in this they will, if they don't they won't. There is no shortage of servers out there, I hardly think anyone will have problems getting a game.
<!--quoteo(post=2050455:date=Dec 23 2012, 05:42 PM:name=Savant)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Savant @ Dec 23 2012, 05:42 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2050455"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If someone is *so good* at a game they they become 'godlike' and no one can best them on the field of battle, then that player is probably best to find a new game to play. If you can beat everyone at a game, what fun is that? You're literally beaten the game. There's no challenge. It's like a major league player playing in pick-up games.
Server operators run their servers to provide all those who use it with a fun gameplay experience. I can totally respect any server operator who will get involved when one person is negatively affecting the fun over all the other players. This is also why some servers require that clans don't stack teams on their public server - since it just tosses game balance out the window. We had another thread in here with a server operator talking about kicking off all the 'rookies', for sake of 'advanced' players. How is this any different?
I think people are over-reacting though. The server operator in this thread is talking about principles behind his actions.
However, bottom line is that it's their servers to do as they wish. If they want to take part in this they will, if they don't they won't. There is no shortage of servers out there, I hardly think anyone will have problems getting a game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Other players could also take up the option of not sucking and observing what the good player is doing to beat the crap out of everyone. HARD CONCEPT.
<!--quoteo(post=2050455:date=Dec 23 2012, 06:42 PM:name=Savant)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Savant @ Dec 23 2012, 06:42 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2050455"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If someone is *so good* at a game they they become 'godlike' and no one can best them on the field of battle, then that player is probably best to find a new game to play. If you can beat everyone at a game, what fun is that? You're literally beaten the game. There's no challenge. It's like a major league player playing in pick-up games.
Server operators run their servers to provide all those who use it with a fun gameplay experience. I can totally respect any server operator who will get involved when one person is negatively affecting the fun over all the other players. This is also why some servers require that clans don't stack teams on their public server - since it just tosses game balance out the window. We had another thread in here with a server operator talking about kicking off all the 'rookies', for sake of 'advanced' players. How is this any different?
I think people are over-reacting though. The server operator in this thread is talking about principles behind his actions.
However, bottom line is that it's their servers to do as they wish. If they want to take part in this they will, if they don't they won't. There is no shortage of servers out there, I hardly think anyone will have problems getting a game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Im actually ok with an Admin banning all rookies from his server, and calling it "VETERANS ONLY, NOOBS GTFO". Im also ok with an Admin kicking all players with a positive K/D ratio and calling his server "NOOBS ONLY, VETERANS GTFO" Also im ok with an Admin kicking all players for not having the word "Cookie" in their name.
But im not fine with the idea to take the bans of 3 subservers as a justification for banning the player from 30 other servers. And if you watch other games that introduced concepts where players are judged by the community you will see why. While the feature is new it might work properly. After an short amount of time however everyone will just spam the ban button without proper investigate if the bans were just or not.
Thats exactly why I hate this Idea of general bans. I dont care about me getting banned and not finding a server, i dont even play much on pub servers anyway. But well if they introduce a banlist you will find me banned there for not researching shade hives first or some other "valid and proper investigated ban reasons".
<!--quoteo(post=2050465:date=Dec 23 2012, 11:08 PM:name=WitchcraftTheEvertrolling)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (WitchcraftTheEvertrolling @ Dec 23 2012, 11:08 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2050465"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->But im not fine with the idea to take the bans of 3 subservers as a justification for banning the player from 30 other servers.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->I know what you're saying, but those other servers are joining it knowing full well what they are getting into. No one is forcing those 30 servers to sign on.
I'm actually not a fan of banlists like this either, but I see them as a 'necessary evil'. If server operators don't try and enforce some kind of order on their servers, people will leave and never come back. So they are stuck between a rock and a hard place. In the end they are choosing the populist option, which is to do what will improve the game experience for the largest number of players.
Yeah it's not ideal, but if anyone has a better idea to control this kind of thing, I'm sure the sever ops would love to hear it.
Was pretty sure one of these blacklists was going around during the beta actually. Didn't have a problem with it then. If VAC did it's job properly, it would serve as a banlist. Unfortunately since VAC isn't a 100% accurate tool it won't catch people who are using custom made cheats plain and simple. That's why server ops that actually play on the server are great because they can eliminate people who are obviously cheating. I am going to point out though that I've only come across maybe 2 or 3 people who were clearly cheating and 2 who used a rather irritating exploit with the pistol which I think may have been fixed now. Anyway the point is this, any server that wants to join in on a blacklist type of thing to cut down on potential cheaters, I'm all for it.
Back to the actual topic, I'd love to see some of the vote kick mods be implemented into the core game. There are some people that really deserve to be kicked out of the game, and yes there could be a group of people who just go around vote kicking people from servers. But those features exist in nearly every CS and TF game and I really never saw it. The potential pain of having some people just acting stupid, compared to the benefit of not dealing with people constantly yelling obscenities or racist remarks or over the line trash talk is better in my opinion.
<!--quoteo(post=2050436:date=Dec 24 2012, 09:05 AM:name=GORGEous)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GORGEous @ Dec 24 2012, 09:05 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2050436"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This thread has been the best argument against a community ban list that I've seen.
If it is your own private server, go ahead and ban people for whatever reason. I've seen server operators ban people for all kinds of stupid reasons (too bad, too good, too cheesy, wearing clan tags, killing an admin, winning, losing, and just about every other action possible in an fps). The last thing I want is a congregate of stupid admins banning people and using other stupid admins' bans as justification for more banning.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
+1
Needs reiterating...
If every admin individually and unbiasedly reviewed each person they banned from a list, then great - but the point of the list is to 'save time' so this isnt a realistic expectation. To a greater or lesser degree it will be used as a time-saver blacklist.
Clear as day - in plain English - I've danced around it and tried to be polite , I can't honestly say it any more clear then this:
IF you are the "l33t" player coming into the server and spanking everyone.. Guess what, you're not "teaching" anyone anything, despite what your delusional mind thinks.. That's the most retarded logic you can spit out.. If you want to believe you're making better players by 40:0 KtD then by all means cry away when you're being banned for "being too good". Reality is, you're being banned for being an ass, not because you're too good.
"look at me, I'm making players better! that guy can't even spawn, he must be awesome by now!"
<!--quoteo(post=2050493:date=Dec 23 2012, 10:29 PM:name=ma$$a$$ter)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ma$$a$$ter @ Dec 23 2012, 10:29 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2050493"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Clear as day - in plain English - I've danced around it and tried to be polite , I can't honestly say it any more clear then this:
IF you are the "l33t" player coming into the server and spanking everyone.. Guess what, your not "teaching" anyone anything, despite what your delusional mind thinks.. That's the most retarded logic you can spit out.. If you want to believe your making better players by 40:0 KtD then by all means cry away when your being banned for "being too good". Reality is, your being banned for being an ass, not because your too good.
"look at me, I'm making players better! that guy can't even spawn, he must be awesome by now!"<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So in your hypothetical, does this person deserve to be distributed to the global banlist you're trying to set up? And if so, what would you label their ban as? Also, can we get this ban list to become public so everyone can see what the reasons are behind server admins banning within this group?
If you want to ban a veteran because you're trying to run a noob server, that's fine. Ban them. You'll probably get made fun of by other veterens, but if they're not your target audience then what do you care.
<!--quoteo(post=2050493:date=Dec 23 2012, 07:29 PM:name=ma$$a$$ter)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ma$$a$$ter @ Dec 23 2012, 07:29 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2050493"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Clear as day - in plain English - I've danced around it and tried to be polite , I can't honestly say it any more clear then this:
IF you are the "l33t" player coming into the server and spanking everyone? Guess what, your not "teaching" anyone anything, despite what your delusional mind thinks.. That's the most retarded logic you can spit out.. If you want to believe your making better players by 40:0 KtD then by all means cry away when your being banned for "being too good". Reality is, your being banned for being an ass, not because your too good.
"look at me, I'm making players better! that guy can't even spawn, he must be awesome by now!"<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
People get better from playing against better players. That's a fact <b>in any game that's ever been made</b>. Why? Because it quickly reinforces to players what tactics *do not* work.
NS2 examples are pretty obvious. In alien vs marine, facing off against good (read: people who can aim) marines teaches the following things:
1.) Don't run in solo against a good marine. Wait for others and go in at the same time.
2.) Don't approach at predictable angles (ie: ground skulking) because those angles get punished the most.
3.) Don't camp on walls, instead engage marines before they round a corner. Good marines check walls and win those engagements via lag compensation.
+ numerous other examples.
Marine vs Alien -
1.) Don't run directly into a room without checking behind. Be methodical in your play.
2.) Not fighting fades 1v1. Ever. Bad fades might die, but good fades almost never will.
3.) Avoiding spots where good skulks will make themselves incredibly difficult to hit (narrow hallways areas with lots of crap to jump on).
4.) Actually improving aim because you're forced to hit fast moving non-ground hugging skulks as opposed to easy targets.
You don't learn any of the above when you play against bad marines/aliens. You actually end up reinforcing terrible habits that make you worse at the game. You can only realize the flaws in your game when they're thrown in your face by a superior player. Good players get good and continually improve because instead of blaming the other guy (ie: hack accusing) they instead observe what that person is doing well and incorporate it into their play. The more adverse circumstances you can throw yourself into a player (read: playing against good players), the faster you'll actually improve at the game.
The reason why a portion of people never improve is because they never stop to consider for a moment that they might actually suck at the game. Their first self defense mechanism when they meet a superior player is to blame anything but themselves - which stops the process of improvement.
<!--quoteo(post=2050496:date=Dec 23 2012, 10:37 PM:name=GORGEous)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GORGEous @ Dec 23 2012, 10:37 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2050496"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So in your hypothetical, does this person deserve to be distributed to the global banlist you're trying to set up? And if so, what would you label their ban as? Also, can we get this ban list to become public so everyone can see what the reasons are behind server admins banning within this group?
If you want to ban a veteran because you're trying to run a noob server, that's fine. Ban them. You'll probably get made fun of by other veterens, but if they're not your target audience then what do you care.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It is not about banning veteran players just because they are a higher skill level, you are missing the point. It is about banning players who are making the playing experience miserable or toxic for the all the other players on the server. This also goes for griefers, those who yell continuous racial slurs, sing and play music over and over, or abuse other players on the server... If you are a high skilled player why would you even want to play with a group of noobs anyway? If you truly want to "teach" them or help you would take the comm chair or direct your team on what to do. Going into a server and just reaming people over and over to the point where they can barely leave the spawn teaches them nothing and is a really jerk move. It baffles me that so many of you cannot see that behaving like this is 8===> ish...And if you keep doing it over and over again on multiple servers then you are kind of a jerk and maybe you do deserve to be on a ban list. I am sure you could find servers with more competitive players or at least a good mix of players.
Alone, A high KtD Ratio does NOT belong on the list. Being a tool belongs on the list.
<!--quoteo(post=2050501:date=Dec 23 2012, 10:48 PM:name=JAMESEARLJONOS)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (JAMESEARLJONOS @ Dec 23 2012, 10:48 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2050501"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->People get better from playing against better players. That's a fact <b>in any game that's ever been made</b>. Why? Because it quickly reinforces to players what tactics *do not* work.
NS2 examples are pretty obvious. In alien vs marine, facing off against good (read: people who can aim) marines teaches the following things:
1.) Don't run in solo against a good marine. Wait for others and go in at the same time.
2.) Don't approach at predictable angles (ie: ground skulking) because those angles get punished the most.
3.) Don't camp on walls, instead engage marines before they round a corner. Good marines check walls and win those engagements via lag compensation.
+ numerous other examples.
Marine vs Alien -
1.) Don't run directly into a room without checking behind. Be methodical in your play.
2.) Not fighting fades 1v1. Ever. Bad fades might die, but good fades almost never will.
3.) Avoiding spots where good skulks will make themselves incredibly difficult to hit (narrow hallways areas with lots of crap to jump on).
4.) Actually improving aim because you're forced to hit fast moving non-ground hugging skulks as opposed to easy targets.
You don't learn any of the above when you play against bad marines/aliens. You actually end up reinforcing terrible habits that make you worse at the game. You can only realize the flaws in your game when they're thrown in your face by a superior player. Good players get good and continually improve because instead of blaming the other guy (ie: hack accusing) they instead observe what that person is doing well and incorporate it into their play. The more adverse circumstances you can throw yourself into a player (read: playing against good players), the faster you'll actually improve at the game.
The reason why a portion of people never improve is because they never stop to consider for a moment that they might actually suck at the game. Their first self defense mechanism when they meet a superior player is to blame anything but themselves - which stops the process of improvement.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It is a fact huh??? I am really intrigued by your study from the institute of bulls*it research on games...Some of your points may be valid if this inexperienced player were playing with a good "mix" of players. However I don't think this holds merit if a "high skilled" veteran player is going balls to the wall against a mostly green team.. This isn't counter strike, there are many more game mechanics to learn then just the basics. How can you learn the lerk if you can't hold onto the dang lerk for more than 2 seconds. As I have said before, the difference between a veteran player and an a$$, is the veteran knows when to take the teaching role in a situation like that rather then stacking the teams or just annihilating noobs.
<!--quoteo(post=2050501:date=Dec 24 2012, 12:48 AM:name=JAMESEARLJONOS)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (JAMESEARLJONOS @ Dec 24 2012, 12:48 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2050501"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->People get better from playing against better players. That's a fact <b>in any game that's ever been made</b>. Why? Because it quickly reinforces to players what tactics *do not* work.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->I see, so if I put you on an NFL team you would be NFL material in no time right?
Why don't I believe that?
While there is some truth to what you say, the issue is the difference between the two. This is where ma$$a$$ter is right on the money. A person going 40-0 against rookies won't be teaching them anything but what the spawn queue looks like. Furthermore, they may quickly become disillusioned with the game an not come back.
There is a difference between someone who is 'better' than you and someone who on a whole different level. Once you reach that 'different level' then the only thing that player does is poison the game. They literally become the only deciding factor on which team wins, and they make a mockery of all the other players on the server.
However, this type of person tends to be pretty rare, so I can't see there being 'ban lists' full of 'uber leet' players. People are making a mountain out of a molehill here. If it was me, and I got banned for being 'too good', I'd wear it as a freaking badge of honor, not cry about it.
<!--quoteo(post=2050432:date=Dec 23 2012, 08:01 PM:name=Locklear)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Locklear @ Dec 23 2012, 08:01 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2050432"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Trust me they aren't there to stroke.. they are there to A)<b> practice aim </b><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Did you honestly just say that you use noobs for target practice?!?!
You are really derailing this thread and discrediting your Community Ban List idea by focusing on the topic of veteran KD:Rs. In the very least you said noob stomping (skill banning) is to be left up to server owner's discretion and would not be material for being added to a global ban list so why do you feel the need to discuss/debate the topic further?
<!--quoteo(post=2050516:date=Dec 23 2012, 11:34 PM:name=rantology)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (rantology @ Dec 23 2012, 11:34 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2050516"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You are really derailing this thread and discrediting your Community Ban List idea by focusing on the topic of veteran KD:Rs. In the very least you said noob stomping (skill banning) is to be left up to server owner's discretion and would not be material for being added to a global ban list so why do you feel the need to discuss/debate the topic further?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I am pretty sure I have said more than once that the ban list is for players who make playing on the server intolerable for others. People continue to complain that they will be unfairly targeted by this project because of their superior K:D ratios. I am just trying to point out that it is not about K:D ratios singularly. It is about the behavior. Yet, no matter how many times and ways I explain it, someone wishes to ignore what I have said and believe something that is untrue. It bothers me that a simple concept is blown so far off base. Savant has it right, I think it will be a rare occurrence, I don't believe that even 5% of the list will be the issue everyone keeps blowing up. Having said that, the mentality that they are entitled to be an a$$ where ever they go amazes me, and I enjoy discussing that.
<!--quoteo(post=2050514:date=Dec 23 2012, 10:27 PM:name=ma$$a$$ter)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ma$$a$$ter @ Dec 23 2012, 10:27 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2050514"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Did you honestly just say that you use noobs for target practice?!?!
And that's a good thing?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Competitive games are not constantly being played and if a competitive player wants to practice the game or his/her aim playing on a pub is kind of their only action. I'm not saying that pubbers are target practice any more than any other player is. NS2 is all about improving yourself and how better to do that than play the game. Yes competitive players have a higher skill set, but where do you think they first got their skills... from playing on pubs... ding ding ding! And if you read Locklears number 2, it said to have fun. Most competitive players I've played with on pubs have not been ######s as you claim them to be. Yes they're better players and you tend to die a lot to them, but they are still just players not an unstoppable force. It is a learning process, noobs will get better, but they need a challenge, someone to rate themselves against so that they have a goal to shoot for. As such vets are needed even in pubs. Unless a server wants to stay all noob all the time, they need vets to add some challenge so that one day they too can be a vet. I was once a noob, and proud to admit it. Doesn't mean I wanted to stay one. Instead of getting down and rage quitting when I was being owned by a vet, I wanted to better myself. Hell I wanted to throw myself into the hornets nest so to speak and play with a lot of better players than myself, and guess what I GOT BETTER!! I'd say that I'm living proof that playing with vets can make you a better player. I'm still not the best player but when I meet someone better, I don't rage, I try harder.
On a second note, as a server op, how would you judge your server players' opinions of a vet player. Is the K/D ratio your only reference? After reading all of your post, I'm starting to wonder if you're one of these butthurt people who tend to rage quit rather than improve themselves.
<!--quoteo(post=2050510:date=Dec 23 2012, 08:12 PM:name=ma$$a$$ter)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ma$$a$$ter @ Dec 23 2012, 08:12 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2050510"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It is a fact huh??? I am really intrigued by your study from the institute of bulls*it research on games...Some of your points may be valid if this inexperienced player were playing with a good "mix" of players. However I don't think this holds merit if a "high skilled" veteran player is going balls to the wall against a mostly green team.. This isn't counter strike, there are many more game mechanics to learn then just the basics. How can you learn the lerk if you can't hold onto the dang lerk for more than 2 seconds. As I have said before, the difference between a veteran player and an a$$, is the veteran knows when to take the teaching role in a situation like that rather then stacking the teams or just annihilating noobs.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I want to point out a key note of cognitive dissonance.
On one hand, you say you don't discriminate against people with good k/ds, you say you discriminate against people who are being "a$$es"
Yet on the same note, your very definition of being an "a$$" is being a veteran who's significantly outplaying the other team, because you somehow feel that's in bad taste.
If the person is significantly outplaying the other team and constantly ###### talking - that's one thing. If the other person is simply playing to the best of their ability and utterly trashing the other team, there's zero reason that person should be discriminated against. And no, playing well is not being malicious, except perhaps in your own fantasy world.
<!--quoteo(post=2050511:date=Dec 23 2012, 08:14 PM:name=Savant)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Savant @ Dec 23 2012, 08:14 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2050511"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I see, so if I put you on an NFL team you would be NFL material in no time right?
Why don't I believe that?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's about as perfect of an example of a false analogy as there ever will be. The context for that was <b>video games</b>, as in, a realm in where there really isn't much that physically separates people. Real sports (ie: not video games) have a significant physical component to them that video games simply don't have.
<!--quoteo(post=2050561:date=Dec 24 2012, 03:49 AM:name=JAMESEARLJONOS)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (JAMESEARLJONOS @ Dec 24 2012, 03:49 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2050561"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->That's about as perfect of an example of a false analogy as there ever will be. The context for that was <b>video games</b>, as in, a realm in where there really isn't much that physically separates people.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->It's a perfectly apt example. Sports may be more physical, and video games more mental, but BOTH as aspects that a person can be deficient in. Yeah you may not be built like a blocker, but you may also not have the reflexes and mental awareness of a 15 year old either. Just because a person plays sitting down, doesn't mean that they have the same potential as someone who plays at a much higher level.
My point was that simply being in the environment with someone far and above your skill level won't teach you anything but how to get rolled.
<!--quoteo(post=2050493:date=Dec 23 2012, 08:29 PM:name=ma$$a$$ter)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ma$$a$$ter @ Dec 23 2012, 08:29 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2050493"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Clear as day - in plain English - I've danced around it and tried to be polite , I can't honestly say it any more clear then this:
IF you are the "l33t" player coming into the server and spanking everyone.. Guess what, you're not "teaching" anyone anything, despite what your delusional mind thinks.. That's the most retarded logic you can spit out.. If you want to believe you're making better players by 40:0 KtD then by all means cry away when you're being banned for "being too good". Reality is, you're being banned for being an ass, not because you're too good.
"look at me, I'm making players better! that guy can't even spawn, he must be awesome by now!"<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The most retarded logic actually is your justification for bans aswell as your idea of competition. The a$$ isnt the 1337 guy who is to good, but you for being a butthurt inferiour player who bans him for a ridiculous reason. Every normal player wont give 2 ######s about the feelings of the rookie skulk and just kill him because hes the enemy. You demand here to consider feelings of lowskilled players in a goddamn GAME. Games are played for fun and not to make idiots feel better. Also beeing good at the game equals being an a$$, thats truly superiour judgement. How is the 40:0 K/D player toxic anyway? I have a mate who is doing such scores with fade every game. Still we lose alot games, gues why? maybe because its a team game? Godlike players can be taken down aswell if you attack them in group, thats exactly what 1337 players will teach new players, TEAMPLAY!... omg better ban them all damn a$$es how dare they to have a good score
Thats exactly why i dont want this banlist to become true. 3 Admins with your silly judgement and a player who didnt anything wrong might be banned from 20+ servers.
<!--quoteo(post=2050574:date=Dec 23 2012, 11:22 PM:name=Savant)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Savant @ Dec 23 2012, 11:22 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2050574"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It's a perfectly apt example. Sports may be more physical, and video games more mental, but BOTH as aspects that a person can be deficient in. Yeah you may not be built like a blocker, but you may also not have the reflexes and mental awareness of a 15 year old either. Just because a person plays sitting down, doesn't mean that they have the same potential as someone who plays at a much higher level.
My point was that simply being in the environment with someone far and above your skill level won't teach you anything but how to get rolled.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So I'm confused. A good team player who helps cover teammates, travels in groups, works and communicates with the commander and team by helping call out on the minimap, who's friendly and helpful in chat, etc... who also happens to be able to get a good K/D ratio won't teach new players anything...?
Correct me if I'm wrong, but it's really difficult to go rambo in NS2. It's exceedingly rare for a single player to go 40:0 by themselves without any support. This situation where the "uber" player griefs noobs seems to be such a far outlier that it can be handled by server admins. Besides, NS2 doesn't have levels like starcraft 2. If this hypothetical veteran wants to practice or have fun, he has to fight Pugs.
I've kicked and banned people for imbalancing what would otherwise be very good games. I have absolutely no remorse for it whatsoever. I'd rather help 23 other people enjoy themselves and learn something then give one damn about the person who could go play against other people up to his/her skill level on another server and enjoy themselves on that one.
<!--quoteo(post=2050624:date=Dec 24 2012, 03:49 AM:name=VeNeM)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (VeNeM @ Dec 24 2012, 03:49 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2050624"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->who gets to decide who is "abusive and unhelpful"<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Although I am really amazed of how much thought people have put into this small topic (and no, I am definetly not talking about you, ma$$a$$ter), what VeNeM said might be all we need to solve this problem.
Who could be capable of deciding that? <ul><li><b>Community (open Banlists)</b> - Well, certainly not. This will end in utter chaos, because these lists are not qualified to make such a decision. </li><li><b>Single Players</b> - Well, certainly not. This will end in utter chaos, because single players are not qualified to make such a decision.</li><li><b>Server Admins</b> - Not really. They can do whatever they want with their servers but they are qualified neither to make such a decision.</li></ul>
And maybe what badmoon meant to ask was if there is a "votekick"-feature in NS2. Just saying.
Comments
Seriously what the ###### is this logic? Its adult behaviour to intentionally underperform? Never read such bull###### in my life. If I. and I bet most players in this game join a team they want to win the game. Its not a reasonable behaviour to intentionally die, your pretty much letting your own team down on purpose. Noone with any sense for competition will ever do this.
The idea for competition nowadays is just horrific. People cant accept others being better then them and rather start crying instead of trying to improve themselfes. And this idiotical attitude gets supported by such silly projects like this banlist.
Its your right to ban everyone from your server for whatever reason(even if theyre complete bullcrap). You will have to endure a crying lowskilled playerbase demanding to ban everyone, noone else. But to ban a guy from most servers for being a good player just shows clearly how toxic and unnecessary a banlist is. And dont start with "proper researches" maybe 5% of Admins will actually do that, while other just go with your silly mass=correct logic and ban everyone with enough reports due to lazyness. A guy can get banned from 20 servers for trying his best to win the game for his team. Nice one, thats exactly what this game needs...
LOL.
Server operators run their servers to provide all those who use it with a fun gameplay experience. I can totally respect any server operator who will get involved when one person is negatively affecting the fun over all the other players. This is also why some servers require that clans don't stack teams on their public server - since it just tosses game balance out the window. We had another thread in here with a server operator talking about kicking off all the 'rookies', for sake of 'advanced' players. How is this any different?
I think people are over-reacting though. The server operator in this thread is talking about principles behind his actions.
However, bottom line is that it's their servers to do as they wish. If they want to take part in this they will, if they don't they won't. There is no shortage of servers out there, I hardly think anyone will have problems getting a game.
Server operators run their servers to provide all those who use it with a fun gameplay experience. I can totally respect any server operator who will get involved when one person is negatively affecting the fun over all the other players. This is also why some servers require that clans don't stack teams on their public server - since it just tosses game balance out the window. We had another thread in here with a server operator talking about kicking off all the 'rookies', for sake of 'advanced' players. How is this any different?
I think people are over-reacting though. The server operator in this thread is talking about principles behind his actions.
However, bottom line is that it's their servers to do as they wish. If they want to take part in this they will, if they don't they won't. There is no shortage of servers out there, I hardly think anyone will have problems getting a game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Other players could also take up the option of not sucking and observing what the good player is doing to beat the crap out of everyone. HARD CONCEPT.
Server operators run their servers to provide all those who use it with a fun gameplay experience. I can totally respect any server operator who will get involved when one person is negatively affecting the fun over all the other players. This is also why some servers require that clans don't stack teams on their public server - since it just tosses game balance out the window. We had another thread in here with a server operator talking about kicking off all the 'rookies', for sake of 'advanced' players. How is this any different?
I think people are over-reacting though. The server operator in this thread is talking about principles behind his actions.
However, bottom line is that it's their servers to do as they wish. If they want to take part in this they will, if they don't they won't. There is no shortage of servers out there, I hardly think anyone will have problems getting a game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Im actually ok with an Admin banning all rookies from his server, and calling it "VETERANS ONLY, NOOBS GTFO".
Im also ok with an Admin kicking all players with a positive K/D ratio and calling his server "NOOBS ONLY, VETERANS GTFO"
Also im ok with an Admin kicking all players for not having the word "Cookie" in their name.
But im not fine with the idea to take the bans of 3 subservers as a justification for banning the player from 30 other servers. And if you watch other games that introduced concepts where players are judged by the community you will see why. While the feature is new it might work properly. After an short amount of time however everyone will just spam the ban button without proper investigate if the bans were just or not.
Thats exactly why I hate this Idea of general bans. I dont care about me getting banned and not finding a server, i dont even play much on pub servers anyway. But well if they introduce a banlist you will find me banned there for not researching shade hives first or some other "valid and proper investigated ban reasons".
I'm actually not a fan of banlists like this either, but I see them as a 'necessary evil'. If server operators don't try and enforce some kind of order on their servers, people will leave and never come back. So they are stuck between a rock and a hard place. In the end they are choosing the populist option, which is to do what will improve the game experience for the largest number of players.
Yeah it's not ideal, but if anyone has a better idea to control this kind of thing, I'm sure the sever ops would love to hear it.
Back to the actual topic, I'd love to see some of the vote kick mods be implemented into the core game. There are some people that really deserve to be kicked out of the game, and yes there could be a group of people who just go around vote kicking people from servers. But those features exist in nearly every CS and TF game and I really never saw it. The potential pain of having some people just acting stupid, compared to the benefit of not dealing with people constantly yelling obscenities or racist remarks or over the line trash talk is better in my opinion.
If it is your own private server, go ahead and ban people for whatever reason. I've seen server operators ban people for all kinds of stupid reasons (too bad, too good, too cheesy, wearing clan tags, killing an admin, winning, losing, and just about every other action possible in an fps). The last thing I want is a congregate of stupid admins banning people and using other stupid admins' bans as justification for more banning.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
+1
Needs reiterating...
If every admin individually and unbiasedly reviewed each person they banned from a list, then great - but the point of the list is to 'save time' so this isnt a realistic expectation. To a greater or lesser degree it will be used as a time-saver blacklist.
IF you are the "l33t" player coming into the server and spanking everyone.. Guess what, you're not "teaching" anyone anything, despite what your delusional mind thinks.. That's the most retarded logic you can spit out.. If you want to believe you're making better players by 40:0 KtD then by all means cry away when you're being banned for "being too good". Reality is, you're being banned for being an ass, not because you're too good.
"look at me, I'm making players better! that guy can't even spawn, he must be awesome by now!"
I don't think it's a bad idea though if it were implemented correctly. I just don't think it's needed right now.
IF you are the "l33t" player coming into the server and spanking everyone.. Guess what, your not "teaching" anyone anything, despite what your delusional mind thinks.. That's the most retarded logic you can spit out.. If you want to believe your making better players by 40:0 KtD then by all means cry away when your being banned for "being too good". Reality is, your being banned for being an ass, not because your too good.
"look at me, I'm making players better! that guy can't even spawn, he must be awesome by now!"<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So in your hypothetical, does this person deserve to be distributed to the global banlist you're trying to set up? And if so, what would you label their ban as? Also, can we get this ban list to become public so everyone can see what the reasons are behind server admins banning within this group?
If you want to ban a veteran because you're trying to run a noob server, that's fine. Ban them. You'll probably get made fun of by other veterens, but if they're not your target audience then what do you care.
IF you are the "l33t" player coming into the server and spanking everyone? Guess what, your not "teaching" anyone anything, despite what your delusional mind thinks.. That's the most retarded logic you can spit out.. If you want to believe your making better players by 40:0 KtD then by all means cry away when your being banned for "being too good". Reality is, your being banned for being an ass, not because your too good.
"look at me, I'm making players better! that guy can't even spawn, he must be awesome by now!"<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
People get better from playing against better players. That's a fact <b>in any game that's ever been made</b>. Why? Because it quickly reinforces to players what tactics *do not* work.
NS2 examples are pretty obvious. In alien vs marine, facing off against good (read: people who can aim) marines teaches the following things:
1.) Don't run in solo against a good marine. Wait for others and go in at the same time.
2.) Don't approach at predictable angles (ie: ground skulking) because those angles get punished the most.
3.) Don't camp on walls, instead engage marines before they round a corner. Good marines check walls and win those engagements via lag compensation.
+ numerous other examples.
Marine vs Alien -
1.) Don't run directly into a room without checking behind. Be methodical in your play.
2.) Not fighting fades 1v1. Ever. Bad fades might die, but good fades almost never will.
3.) Avoiding spots where good skulks will make themselves incredibly difficult to hit (narrow hallways areas with lots of crap to jump on).
4.) Actually improving aim because you're forced to hit fast moving non-ground hugging skulks as opposed to easy targets.
You don't learn any of the above when you play against bad marines/aliens. You actually end up reinforcing terrible habits that make you worse at the game. You can only realize the flaws in your game when they're thrown in your face by a superior player. Good players get good and continually improve because instead of blaming the other guy (ie: hack accusing) they instead observe what that person is doing well and incorporate it into their play. The more adverse circumstances you can throw yourself into a player (read: playing against good players), the faster you'll actually improve at the game.
The reason why a portion of people never improve is because they never stop to consider for a moment that they might actually suck at the game. Their first self defense mechanism when they meet a superior player is to blame anything but themselves - which stops the process of improvement.
If you want to ban a veteran because you're trying to run a noob server, that's fine. Ban them. You'll probably get made fun of by other veterens, but if they're not your target audience then what do you care.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It is not about banning veteran players just because they are a higher skill level, you are missing the point. It is about banning players who are making the playing experience miserable or toxic for the all the other players on the server. This also goes for griefers, those who yell continuous racial slurs, sing and play music over and over, or abuse other players on the server... If you are a high skilled player why would you even want to play with a group of noobs anyway? If you truly want to "teach" them or help you would take the comm chair or direct your team on what to do. Going into a server and just reaming people over and over to the point where they can barely leave the spawn teaches them nothing and is a really jerk move. It baffles me that so many of you cannot see that behaving like this is 8===> ish...And if you keep doing it over and over again on multiple servers then you are kind of a jerk and maybe you do deserve to be on a ban list. I am sure you could find servers with more competitive players or at least a good mix of players.
Alone, A high KtD Ratio does NOT belong on the list. Being a tool belongs on the list.
NS2 examples are pretty obvious. In alien vs marine, facing off against good (read: people who can aim) marines teaches the following things:
1.) Don't run in solo against a good marine. Wait for others and go in at the same time.
2.) Don't approach at predictable angles (ie: ground skulking) because those angles get punished the most.
3.) Don't camp on walls, instead engage marines before they round a corner. Good marines check walls and win those engagements via lag compensation.
+ numerous other examples.
Marine vs Alien -
1.) Don't run directly into a room without checking behind. Be methodical in your play.
2.) Not fighting fades 1v1. Ever. Bad fades might die, but good fades almost never will.
3.) Avoiding spots where good skulks will make themselves incredibly difficult to hit (narrow hallways areas with lots of crap to jump on).
4.) Actually improving aim because you're forced to hit fast moving non-ground hugging skulks as opposed to easy targets.
You don't learn any of the above when you play against bad marines/aliens. You actually end up reinforcing terrible habits that make you worse at the game. You can only realize the flaws in your game when they're thrown in your face by a superior player. Good players get good and continually improve because instead of blaming the other guy (ie: hack accusing) they instead observe what that person is doing well and incorporate it into their play. The more adverse circumstances you can throw yourself into a player (read: playing against good players), the faster you'll actually improve at the game.
The reason why a portion of people never improve is because they never stop to consider for a moment that they might actually suck at the game. Their first self defense mechanism when they meet a superior player is to blame anything but themselves - which stops the process of improvement.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It is a fact huh??? I am really intrigued by your study from the institute of bulls*it research on games...Some of your points may be valid if this inexperienced player were playing with a good "mix" of players. However I don't think this holds merit if a "high skilled" veteran player is going balls to the wall against a mostly green team.. This isn't counter strike, there are many more game mechanics to learn then just the basics. How can you learn the lerk if you can't hold onto the dang lerk for more than 2 seconds. As I have said before, the difference between a veteran player and an a$$, is the veteran knows when to take the teaching role in a situation like that rather then stacking the teams or just annihilating noobs.
Why don't I believe that?
While there is some truth to what you say, the issue is the difference between the two. This is where ma$$a$$ter is right on the money. A person going 40-0 against rookies won't be teaching them anything but what the spawn queue looks like. Furthermore, they may quickly become disillusioned with the game an not come back.
There is a difference between someone who is 'better' than you and someone who on a whole different level. Once you reach that 'different level' then the only thing that player does is poison the game. They literally become the only deciding factor on which team wins, and they make a mockery of all the other players on the server.
However, this type of person tends to be pretty rare, so I can't see there being 'ban lists' full of 'uber leet' players. People are making a mountain out of a molehill here. If it was me, and I got banned for being 'too good', I'd wear it as a freaking badge of honor, not cry about it.
Did you honestly just say that you use noobs for target practice?!?!
And that's a good thing?
I am pretty sure I have said more than once that the ban list is for players who make playing on the server intolerable for others. People continue to complain that they will be unfairly targeted by this project because of their superior K:D ratios. I am just trying to point out that it is not about K:D ratios singularly. It is about the behavior. Yet, no matter how many times and ways I explain it, someone wishes to ignore what I have said and believe something that is untrue. It bothers me that a simple concept is blown so far off base. Savant has it right, I think it will be a rare occurrence, I don't believe that even 5% of the list will be the issue everyone keeps blowing up. Having said that, the mentality that they are entitled to be an a$$ where ever they go amazes me, and I enjoy discussing that.
And that's a good thing?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Competitive games are not constantly being played and if a competitive player wants to practice the game or his/her aim playing on a pub is kind of their only action. I'm not saying that pubbers are target practice any more than any other player is. NS2 is all about improving yourself and how better to do that than play the game. Yes competitive players have a higher skill set, but where do you think they first got their skills... from playing on pubs... ding ding ding! And if you read Locklears number 2, it said to have fun. Most competitive players I've played with on pubs have not been ######s as you claim them to be. Yes they're better players and you tend to die a lot to them, but they are still just players not an unstoppable force. It is a learning process, noobs will get better, but they need a challenge, someone to rate themselves against so that they have a goal to shoot for. As such vets are needed even in pubs. Unless a server wants to stay all noob all the time, they need vets to add some challenge so that one day they too can be a vet. I was once a noob, and proud to admit it. Doesn't mean I wanted to stay one. Instead of getting down and rage quitting when I was being owned by a vet, I wanted to better myself. Hell I wanted to throw myself into the hornets nest so to speak and play with a lot of better players than myself, and guess what I GOT BETTER!! I'd say that I'm living proof that playing with vets can make you a better player. I'm still not the best player but when I meet someone better, I don't rage, I try harder.
On a second note, as a server op, how would you judge your server players' opinions of a vet player. Is the K/D ratio your only reference? After reading all of your post, I'm starting to wonder if you're one of these butthurt people who tend to rage quit rather than improve themselves.
perhaps then they would get a life
I want to point out a key note of cognitive dissonance.
On one hand, you say you don't discriminate against people with good k/ds, you say you discriminate against people who are being "a$$es"
Yet on the same note, your very definition of being an "a$$" is being a veteran who's significantly outplaying the other team, because you somehow feel that's in bad taste.
If the person is significantly outplaying the other team and constantly ###### talking - that's one thing. If the other person is simply playing to the best of their ability and utterly trashing the other team, there's zero reason that person should be discriminated against. And no, playing well is not being malicious, except perhaps in your own fantasy world.
Why don't I believe that?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's about as perfect of an example of a false analogy as there ever will be. The context for that was <b>video games</b>, as in, a realm in where there really isn't much that physically separates people. Real sports (ie: not video games) have a significant physical component to them that video games simply don't have.
My point was that simply being in the environment with someone far and above your skill level won't teach you anything but how to get rolled.
IF you are the "l33t" player coming into the server and spanking everyone.. Guess what, you're not "teaching" anyone anything, despite what your delusional mind thinks.. That's the most retarded logic you can spit out.. If you want to believe you're making better players by 40:0 KtD then by all means cry away when you're being banned for "being too good". Reality is, you're being banned for being an ass, not because you're too good.
"look at me, I'm making players better! that guy can't even spawn, he must be awesome by now!"<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The most retarded logic actually is your justification for bans aswell as your idea of competition. The a$$ isnt the 1337 guy who is to good, but you for being a butthurt inferiour player who bans him for a ridiculous reason. Every normal player wont give 2 ######s about the feelings of the rookie skulk and just kill him because hes the enemy. You demand here to consider feelings of lowskilled players in a goddamn GAME. Games are played for fun and not to make idiots feel better. Also beeing good at the game equals being an a$$, thats truly superiour judgement. How is the 40:0 K/D player toxic anyway? I have a mate who is doing such scores with fade every game. Still we lose alot games, gues why? maybe because its a team game? Godlike players can be taken down aswell if you attack them in group, thats exactly what 1337 players will teach new players, TEAMPLAY!... omg better ban them all damn a$$es how dare they to have a good score
Thats exactly why i dont want this banlist to become true. 3 Admins with your silly judgement and a player who didnt anything wrong might be banned from 20+ servers.
My point was that simply being in the environment with someone far and above your skill level won't teach you anything but how to get rolled.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So I'm confused. A good team player who helps cover teammates, travels in groups, works and communicates with the commander and team by helping call out on the minimap, who's friendly and helpful in chat, etc... who also happens to be able to get a good K/D ratio won't teach new players anything...?
Correct me if I'm wrong, but it's really difficult to go rambo in NS2. It's exceedingly rare for a single player to go 40:0 by themselves without any support. This situation where the "uber" player griefs noobs seems to be such a far outlier that it can be handled by server admins. Besides, NS2 doesn't have levels like starcraft 2. If this hypothetical veteran wants to practice or have fun, he has to fight Pugs.
Although I am really amazed of how much thought people have put into this small topic (and no, I am definetly not talking about you, ma$$a$$ter), what VeNeM said might be all we need to solve this problem.
Who could be capable of deciding that?
<ul><li><b>Community (open Banlists)</b> - Well, certainly not. This will end in utter chaos, because these lists are not qualified to make such a decision. </li><li><b>Single Players</b> - Well, certainly not. This will end in utter chaos, because single players are not qualified to make such a decision.</li><li><b>Server Admins</b> - Not really. They can do whatever they want with their servers but they are qualified neither to make such a decision.</li></ul>
And maybe what badmoon meant to ask was if there is a "votekick"-feature in NS2. Just saying.