<!--quoteo(post=2048208:date=Dec 19 2012, 04:35 PM:name=Grissi)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Grissi @ Dec 19 2012, 04:35 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2048208"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If aliens managed to force marines to use res in turrets or flamethrower in these situations they will get a huge advantage since it means less pressure on their own rts. But this is more of a issue in competitive games than public, a small one but still a frustrating one.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Forcing your opponent into an unfavorable investment is pretty much basic in any RTS game. Granted it is a bit skewed at the moment considering aliens don't have to spend anything but tres for this tactic while marines have to field research to effectively counter it.
I think a decent alternative would be to outright copy creep tumors in SC2. You can create one new cyst via your old one and would have to then place a fresh cyst if it gets destroyed. An increase in tres cost (3-5 seems to be a good number to play around with) would make it unfavorable to spam early and somewhat midgame while making a good tres sink later on. Have to tweak the hp/armor values considering its increased cost, but eh just a random idea.
I really fail to see how cyst spam is an issue. Spamming cysts burns up a lot of res, and it primarily serves to keep a room full of infestation. Compared to some of the other uses you could put 20-30 res to, and how easy and inexpensive it is to prevent cyst spam (welders, chain breaking, and sentry guns are all easy to come by), cyst spam has it's place but can hardly be described as overpowered.
The performance issue should be fixed by tuning performance, not reducing cyst density.
Im commanding aliens a lot and that cyst spam tactic is a favourite of mine.
I do it quite often and it works ridicoulesly well.
Any locations i know i cannot hold , i simply fill with an ridicoulus amount of cysts, especially at the harvester spot. ( then i put myst down, to speed maturing (evil i know) )
Anyways it does completely deny marines from taking a location before i can dispatch aliens to take care of them. (that is if they dont have flamethrowers, which they do not 95% of the time)
Also funny when marines are building armory or PG and i close in with the cysts which freeze the started building templates. Therefore delaying a marine base heavily. (not to mention the value of allowing the skulks to close in while some are busy destroying cysts)
EDIT: I forgot to add my favourite addition to this tactic. 10 or more drifters flying in and killing the marine (15 drifters can take out 2 marines with assault rifles no problem)
Something really has to be done about cysts because i agree this is just imba and boring. While it works well and entertaining to watch a marine giving up because cysts are closing in all around him, it is still lame.
I remember in beta that cysts were actually building and not instantly spawned, only cysts that were connected to an active (built) cyst were being built themselves. I never figured out why they changed that. Alien ability to cyst spam and expand is simply OP.
Khammander can drop new cysts just as fast as a single marine can take them out, thus freezing the marine in 1 place of the map and most likely getting them killed by a single skulk in the process, or waste all their ammo with zero result.
I suspect alot of you havn't seen a commander competently doing this. They are not going to do it under a marine who is just standing there ready to kill each cyst. Instead they will do it to a marine putting up a phase gate so you need to choose whether you will build the phase gate (and thus lose the chance to build anything else) or stand there shooting cysts until a skulk comes and kills you while your reloading.
Or they will cyst into a tech point and destroy all your mines and use mist to get a million cysts up, then you have to destroy them because if you were to lose your phase gate or another key structure you would be unable to build them again or your base will end up surrounded by whips to ruin your day.
Yes this is somewhat expensive for the alien commander, and with the flame based weapons you can kill them at a good pace, but as Grissi pointed out, once you have 2 upgrades and all the basic tier 2 upgrades, there is nothing critical that is being delayed for this tactic, and frankly its stupid boring to have to fight against constnatly, esp in a server where other marines do not realize the importance of dealing with the problem while the cysts are young.
Please note again my argument is not that this tactic is OP, but rather that its horribly boring to play against and has major implications for performance.
<!--quoteo(post=2048271:date=Dec 19 2012, 07:24 PM:name=SanCo)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SanCo @ Dec 19 2012, 07:24 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2048271"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Seems people alrdy strayed from an important note; Preformance.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Exactly. They're missing the point. It kills performance completely.
Alien comm's usually do it during the end-game where they have 1 hive.
I tend to agree that if the gripe is performance related it makes more sense to address the performance issue rather than putting out a poorly thought out aliens nerf.
Cysts are at heart a fragile, useless structure that's required if you plan on building other structures anywhere. Can they be used to deny an area? Sure, against one Marine. Balancing cysts so that one marine is able to effectively take them down means they will be laughable versus two Marines let alone a flamethrower or turret battery. Since taking out cyst chains has other repercussions beyond the room you're currently standing in, I think it's fair enough.
One skulk on a power node takes, what, 45 seconds or so to take it down? Versus five seconds or so to kill a cyst that severs all 'downstream' cysts? Sure it's easy to replace the severed cyst, but then it takes even less time to kill the next one placed.
Then there's the fact that if you're camping a cyst chain, you're probably already doing it wrong.
Comments
Forcing your opponent into an unfavorable investment is pretty much basic in any RTS game. Granted it is a bit skewed at the moment considering aliens don't have to spend anything but tres for this tactic while marines have to field research to effectively counter it.
I think a decent alternative would be to outright copy creep tumors in SC2. You can create one new cyst via your old one and would have to then place a fresh cyst if it gets destroyed. An increase in tres cost (3-5 seems to be a good number to play around with) would make it unfavorable to spam early and somewhat midgame while making a good tres sink later on. Have to tweak the hp/armor values considering its increased cost, but eh just a random idea.
The performance issue should be fixed by tuning performance, not reducing cyst density.
I do it quite often and it works ridicoulesly well.
Any locations i know i cannot hold , i simply fill with an ridicoulus amount of cysts, especially at the harvester spot. ( then i put myst down, to speed maturing (evil i know) )
Anyways it does completely deny marines from taking a location before i can dispatch aliens to take care of them. (that is if they dont have flamethrowers, which they do not 95% of the time)
Also funny when marines are building armory or PG and i close in with the cysts which freeze the started building templates. Therefore delaying a marine base heavily. (not to mention the value of allowing the skulks to close in while some are busy destroying cysts)
EDIT: I forgot to add my favourite addition to this tactic. 10 or more drifters flying in and killing the marine (15 drifters can take out 2 marines with assault rifles no problem)
Something really has to be done about cysts because i agree this is just imba and boring. While it works well and entertaining to watch a marine giving up because cysts are closing in all around him, it is still lame.
I remember in beta that cysts were actually building and not instantly spawned, only cysts that were connected to an active (built) cyst were being built themselves. I never figured out why they changed that. Alien ability to cyst spam and expand is simply OP.
Or they will cyst into a tech point and destroy all your mines and use mist to get a million cysts up, then you have to destroy them because if you were to lose your phase gate or another key structure you would be unable to build them again or your base will end up surrounded by whips to ruin your day.
Yes this is somewhat expensive for the alien commander, and with the flame based weapons you can kill them at a good pace, but as Grissi pointed out, once you have 2 upgrades and all the basic tier 2 upgrades, there is nothing critical that is being delayed for this tactic, and frankly its stupid boring to have to fight against constnatly, esp in a server where other marines do not realize the importance of dealing with the problem while the cysts are young.
Please note again my argument is not that this tactic is OP, but rather that its horribly boring to play against and has major implications for performance.
Exactly. They're missing the point. It kills performance completely.
Alien comm's usually do it during the end-game where they have 1 hive.
Cysts are at heart a fragile, useless structure that's required if you plan on building other structures anywhere. Can they be used to deny an area? Sure, against one Marine. Balancing cysts so that one marine is able to effectively take them down means they will be laughable versus two Marines let alone a flamethrower or turret battery. Since taking out cyst chains has other repercussions beyond the room you're currently standing in, I think it's fair enough.
One skulk on a power node takes, what, 45 seconds or so to take it down? Versus five seconds or so to kill a cyst that severs all 'downstream' cysts? Sure it's easy to replace the severed cyst, but then it takes even less time to kill the next one placed.
Then there's the fact that if you're camping a cyst chain, you're probably already doing it wrong.