Dwarf, you're arguing a straw man. I never, <i>ever</i> said that shades should be in the middle of a room. I said they're easy to kill no matter where you put them and can't just be dropped willy nilly anywhere on a map like people seem to imply. You just don't have the experience to know what works and what doesn't, so I'm not going to argue with you about it any more. If you believe Camo is OP, go ahead and keep begging for nerfs. It won't make a difference to me, or anyone else that knows better. I've said it before I'll say it again, you could remove shade and every upgrade it provides from the game and it won't make a difference in 90% of matches. Aliens will still curb stomp n00bs like you.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The problem you guys dont see is that Aliens actually ARE OP but camo really is not. Things like power nodes and generally the transition from 0 Onos to 3 Onos within 1 minute screw pub marines much more than cheesy camo.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's basically it in a nutshell, although I don't really think Aliens are OP but rather Marines are too hard for pubbers to handle well enough to counter a team with an already linear progression.
If Camo was truly OP, everyone would be using it every game. Like Early Onos, you wouldn't be able to play a single game without Camo first. Since I hardly ever see this strategy on the dozen servers I play hundreds of hours on, I can only conclude you guys are wrong. The times I've seen Camo first are <i>by no means</i> already decided, as I see Aliens lose more often when they use this cheesy strategy against a Marines team that isn't full of green names. Does it win versus new Marines? Sure. Although to be honest, I don't know what would <i>win</i> for Marines with a n00b team since they almost <i>always</i> lose no matter what path the Aliens take.
If I had a nickle for every time I commanded a round where Aliens won within the first five minutes of the game I'd be a rich SOB. Maybe the 'problem' with cloaking for you guys is that they camp right outside your base rather than killing your IP's and winning in five minutes. This is because you're being trolled by better players, believe it or not.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Actually Onos do have a counter, its called Weapons 3 Exo.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Wow, this proves you really have no clue.
<!--quoteo(post=2047696:date=Dec 18 2012, 08:32 PM:name=SpaceJew)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SpaceJew @ Dec 18 2012, 08:32 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2047696"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Dwarf, you're arguing a straw man. I never, <i>ever</i> said that shades should be in the middle of a room. I said they're easy to kill no matter where you put them and can't just be dropped willy nilly anywhere on a map like people seem to imply.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> However you implied they were an easy kill in any scenario The issue is if they're being used and utilised correctly any Marines discovering one would also discover a room full of "Oh god where's my face".
<!--quoteo(post=2047696:date=Dec 18 2012, 08:32 PM:name=SpaceJew)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SpaceJew @ Dec 18 2012, 08:32 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2047696"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You just don't have the experience to know what works and what doesn't, so I'm not going to argue with you about it any more. If you believe Camo is OP, go ahead and keep begging for nerfs. It won't make a difference to me, or anyone else that knows better. I've said it before I'll say it again, you could remove shade and every upgrade it provides from the game and it won't make a difference in 90% of matches. Aliens will still curb stomp n00bs like you.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Brushing people off on experience in such a way is also a bad way to go about it. As I pointed out before if something is not used in competitive play as it is (brushing aside the number differences in competitive play teams for a moment) and yet in public play its an issue then why shouldn't it be changed. It won't harm the competitive play as they already don't use it however the change might help out public play and create a scenario where a persons death is their fault / their squads fault and not due to the commander failing in babysitting them.
As everyone keeps saying Marine commander has a lot more on their plate than aliens so the option to remove one reliance like that would be welcomed .
Having been round plenty of servers the amount of players both new and higher end pointing out how Camo has a problem is quite large. Heck the fact even a noob like me can abuse camo to get easy kills should tell you there's a problem with it.
All this will mean is people can't so easily Roflstomp the rookie servers with their highly organised groups going Camo right away. It won't stop noob teams losing but it will stop Noob teams winning with Camo too
<!--quoteo(post=2047696:date=Dec 18 2012, 08:32 PM:name=SpaceJew)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SpaceJew @ Dec 18 2012, 08:32 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2047696"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->That's basically it in a nutshell, although I don't really think Aliens are OP but rather Marines are too hard for pubbers to handle well enough to counter a team with an already linear progression.
If Camo was truly OP, everyone would be using it every game. Like Early Onos, you wouldn't be able to play a single game without Camo first. Since I hardly ever see this strategy on the dozen servers I play hundreds of hours on, I can only conclude you guys are wrong. The times I've seen Camo first are <i>by no means</i> already decided, as I see Aliens lose more often when they use this cheesy strategy against a Marines team that isn't full of green names. Does it win versus new Marines? Sure. Although to be honest, I don't know what would <i>win</i> for Marines with a n00b team since they almost <i>always</i> lose no matter what path the Aliens take.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Again for the 4th time or so
<!--sizeo:6--><span style="font-size:24pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><b><!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro-->I AM NOT SAYING CAMO IS OP ONLY THAT IT IS NOT BALANCED.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--></b><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
<!--quoteo(post=2047696:date=Dec 18 2012, 08:32 PM:name=SpaceJew)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SpaceJew @ Dec 18 2012, 08:32 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2047696"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If I had a nickle for every time I commanded a round where Aliens won within the first five minutes of the game I'd be a rich SOB. Maybe the 'problem' with cloaking for you guys is that they camp right outside your base rather than killing your IP's and winning in five minutes. This is because you're being trolled by better players, believe it or not.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Its so funny. People are saying Camo has no problems and are on about competitive play etc when in NS1 the game so many hold up as the grand competitive game had a far more direct counter to Camo than any people are suggesting here or so I've been lead to believe by NS1 veterans.
Also you seem to suggest there's a counter to the enemy right outside your base when you're using your scans to essentially support your away team and having to rely on the obs passive to defend your base.
Again if Camo is so useless to competitive play and as you can see by the numerous threads such an issue in pub play, what are you losing by having a change ? Making it so noob alien teams will lost vs even mediocre Marine teams, but that'e exactly what you want, noob teams losing to better teams.
<!--quoteo(post=2047696:date=Dec 18 2012, 08:32 PM:name=SpaceJew)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SpaceJew @ Dec 18 2012, 08:32 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2047696"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Wow, this proves you really have no clue.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So the fact even a Noob like me can take down an Onos using an single gun Exo with weapons 3 and yes it was a Carapace celerity Onos means nothing about the validity of this ?
Again remember I am a real noob at this so me being able to do something suggests its perfectly possible to do with little issue. Oh and before someone asks more I even killed the Onos with the Exo fist having shot it down and had it get close. Sure I only had 100 armour left but again I can do it so its possible for even a noob
<!--quoteo(post=2047709:date=Dec 18 2012, 02:56 PM:name=Dwavenhobble)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Dwavenhobble @ Dec 18 2012, 02:56 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2047709"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->However you implied they were an easy kill in any scenario The issue is if they're being used and utilised correctly any Marines discovering one would also discover a room full of "Oh god where's my face".<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
They are an easy kill in any scenario. Unless they're guarded by a team of Aliens, such as in a hive. A Mature shade has 1000HP, a newly build shade has 500 HP. Only a mature shade can drop ink. Neither of them has <i>any</i> armor. A single LMG clip, with no upgrades, does 500 damage per clip. Do the math.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Brushing people off on experience in such a way is also a bad way to go about it. As I pointed out before if something is not used in competitive play as it is (brushing aside the number differences in competitive play teams for a moment) and yet in public play its an issue then why shouldn't it be changed. It won't harm the competitive play as they already don't use it however the change might help out public play and create a scenario where a persons death is their fault / their squads fault and not due to the commander failing in babysitting them.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It won't. Like I've said, nerf camo. Remove camo. Either way it makes no difference to anyone that knows anything. I think that if we start removing or nerfing things that don't work because completely new players are being beaten by it we should remove the aliens team as well and replace them with bots. Teeth on skulks should be replaced by nerf weapons, and lerks should shoot streamers and balloons instead of spikes. This would enable a completely clueless Marines team to maybe win some of the time.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->As everyone keeps saying Marine commander has a lot more on their plate than aliens so the option to remove one reliance like that would be welcomed .<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So in order to make the Marines team easier, we should nerf the other teams troll strategies leaving them with a core strategy that already wins more than Shade first. Yeah, your logic leaves something to be desired. Your lack of experience directly contributes to your belief that Camo is OP or 'imbalanced' or whatever word you want to use to describe your inability to play.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Having been round plenty of servers the amount of players both new and higher end pointing out how Camo has a problem is quite large. Heck the fact even a noob like me can abuse camo to get easy kills should tell you there's a problem with it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You're starting to see how stupid the Marines team is, huh? Good deal. I doubt the n00bs and the experienced players agree on why camo has problems though, since most good players have a problem with Camo being a horrible upgrade as first or second hive.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->All this will mean is people can't so easily Roflstomp the rookie servers with their highly organised groups going Camo right away. It won't stop noob teams losing but it will stop Noob teams winning with Camo too<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hah. Shift/Crag/Shade stomps Marines way better than Camo no matter what skill level is involved. It's even <i>better</i> for highly organized groups of good players, since Camo actually nerfs your team in a lot of ways that you seem to be unable to see.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Again for the 4th time or so
<!--sizeo:6--><span style="font-size:24pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><b><!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro-->I AM NOT SAYING CAMO IS OP ONLY THAT IT IS NOT BALANCED.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--></b><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Why don't you go ahead and define balance for us. I'm not sure what you mean by Camo not being 'balanced' when there are hard counters, both permanent and temporary, available to the Marines that directly negate the camo upgrade.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Its so funny. People are saying Camo has no problems and are on about competitive play etc when in NS1 the game so many hold up as the grand competitive game had a far more direct counter to Camo than any people are suggesting here or so I've been lead to believe by NS1 veterans.
Also you seem to suggest there's a counter to the enemy right outside your base when you're using your scans to essentially support your away team and having to rely on the obs passive to defend your base.
Again if Camo is so useless to competitive play and as you can see by the numerous threads such an issue in pub play, what are you losing by having a change ? Making it so noob alien teams will lost vs even mediocre Marine teams, but that'e exactly what you want, noob teams losing to better teams.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The same people are in every 'nerf camo' thread, so I don't' know how legitimate you are. I remember there being a ton of 'nerf GL' threads not that long ago. GL was not nerfed in response to that. You really aren't paying attention, are you? I don't <i>care</i> if they remove Camo. I'm just pointing out what big cry babies n00bs are in NS2. I think the Marines Command needs a serious look to see how it can have the skill floor lowered to be effective. Maybe making scans free and on a timer is a solution, but it's a solution to a problem that only exists at the lowest possible skill level of play. To be honest, any 'nerfs' or 'balance' changes are probably not going to make Marines Command something your average player can just 'pick up' and do well with. The fact people want nerfs to aliens before they've even put in a dozen hours into Marines Command makes me want to laugh and cry at the same time.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So the fact even a Noob like me can take down an Onos using an single gun Exo with weapons 3 and yes it was a Carapace celerity Onos means nothing about the validity of this ?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You <i>can</i> do anything, but the fact of the matter is one Onos versus one Single-Gun Exo is handing a massive advantage to the Onos. You know, it <i>is</i> possible to be a better player than some guy on the Aliens team? I've killed an Onos single-handedly as a regular Marine while circle strafing. The poor jerk couldn't <i>hit</i> me, and he died because of it. Does that mean one Marine is a counter to Onos? Sadly, no it does not.
TL;DR
L2P
(Oh, you really were trolling huh. Oh well, I'm done with you. I'll just wait a few weeks while you learn how to play, then maybe we'll have some good conversations on what is and is not a good strategy.)
<!--quoteo(post=2047721:date=Dec 18 2012, 01:22 PM:name=SpaceJew)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SpaceJew @ Dec 18 2012, 01:22 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2047721"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Why don't you go ahead and define balance for us. I'm not sure what you mean by Camo not being 'balanced' when there are hard counters, both permanent and temporary, available to the Marines that directly negate the camo upgrade.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> camouflage is unbalanced in the sense that the level of execution required from aliens to make camouflage effective is drastically lower than the level of execution required to defend it
Shades have quite a good strategic use at the expense of armour / durability. risk reward right there.
<!--quoteo(post=2047721:date=Dec 18 2012, 09:22 PM:name=SpaceJew)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SpaceJew @ Dec 18 2012, 09:22 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2047721"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It won't. Like I've said, nerf camo. Remove camo. Either way it makes no difference to anyone that knows anything.
I think that if we start removing or nerfing things that don't work because completely new players are being beaten by it we should remove the aliens team as well and replace them with bots. Teeth on skulks should be replaced by nerf weapons, and lerks should shoot streamers and balloons instead of spikes. This would enable a completely clueless Marines team to maybe win some of the time.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Any player who knows anything. Really you're going with that because there are people on about how well balanced NS1 was and that had a near direct non commander based Camo counter.
See now you're actually making another error there. I never said remove Camo entirely I can see it has its place in the game. And to Reductio ad absurdum the counter Arguement. a pack of 4 skulks see a group of 7 Marines. Due to camo and cloak they sneak in and due to their positioning are able to position the mouth perfectly each marine takes a 75 damage bite and due to pack tactics and team of 4 skulks due to being able to use Camo to counter the Marines ranged weapon advantage kill off an entire squad at the cost of maybe 1 Skulk. the Marine have no idea where the hive is due to the shades hiding everything but the squelch as they walk on infestation and due to cosntant base pressure the com has to scan areas near the base and isn't able to work organise a push out to get the hive or to be able to scan to locate the hive.
<!--quoteo(post=2047721:date=Dec 18 2012, 09:22 PM:name=SpaceJew)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SpaceJew @ Dec 18 2012, 09:22 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2047721"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So in order to make the Marines team easier, we should nerf the other teams troll strategies leaving them with a core strategy that already wins more than Shade first. Yeah, your logic leaves something to be desired. Your lack of experience directly contributes to your belief that Camo is OP or 'imbalanced' or whatever word you want to use to describe your inability to play.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Did I suggest adding in Neutron fluxx cannons able to shoot Ion steams from the command centre to the hive ? I'm pretty sure I didn't you know.
Its strange because that's what you're seemingly responding to here. Its strange as you're seemingly suggesting an item requiring direct line of sight to be able to see cloaked and only cloak generating units will become the ultimate unbeatable strategy. In that case alien vision is so OP as it highlights Marines, oh so very OP and needs nerfing because obviously being able to see an enemy highlighted and contrasted well is so OP and always wins nerf it now.
Or you know you might just be being a little bit silly about what's being suggested here and suggesting Iran has weapons of Mass destruction they can fire in 12 minutes against other countries.
<!--quoteo(post=2047721:date=Dec 18 2012, 09:22 PM:name=SpaceJew)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SpaceJew @ Dec 18 2012, 09:22 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2047721"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You're starting to see how stupid the Marines team is, huh? Good deal. I doubt the n00bs and the experienced players agree on why camo has problems though, since most good players have a problem with Camo being a horrible upgrade as first or second hive.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Depends again on the players. I ran into a group about who honestly were pretty damn good and went Shade first every round and won yet the one round they didn't they lost quite badly.
<!--quoteo(post=2047721:date=Dec 18 2012, 09:22 PM:name=SpaceJew)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SpaceJew @ Dec 18 2012, 09:22 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2047721"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Hah. Shift/Crag/Shade stomps Marines way better than Camo no matter what skill level is involved. It's even <i>better</i> for highly organized groups of good players, since Camo actually nerfs your team in a lot of ways that you seem to be unable to see.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Again this is because most of the time 75 -100% of the specialisation is being used compared to 25-50% of shade being used.
<!--quoteo(post=2047721:date=Dec 18 2012, 09:22 PM:name=SpaceJew)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SpaceJew @ Dec 18 2012, 09:22 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2047721"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Why don't you go ahead and define balance for us. I'm not sure what you mean by Camo not being 'balanced' when there are hard counters, both permanent and temporary, available to the Marines that directly negate the camo upgrade.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
OP = use it as short of removal of your brain also known and being a codpiece without opposable thumbs you will win. Unbalanced = Puts the enemy team in a state where they are at a disadvantage / forces them to be at the disadvantage.
You say Obs + scans is a hard counter to Camo. Its not. Here's why
Camo costs aliens 15 resources and 0 personal to use Observatories cost marines 15 resources then 3 per use outside of its effective area.
Now you could then say "Oh but Obs counters shade"
so Shade cost = 15 Evolve hallucination = 15 use = 1 - 15
In about 7 scans caused by fake hallucinations you've done better cost wise then the Marines and remember its 6 scans or about that to take down a hive if you rush it early on without using hallucinations to force scans.
So the next "Hard" counter that will be suggested will be shotguns as, they can kill quicker due to getting the first hit so arm the soldier better. The cost on that is Armoury cost = 10 Research cost = 20 Pres cost = 20
again for 15 Tres you've given your team something the enemy can only just fight spending 30 Tres and 20 Pres
<!--quoteo(post=2047721:date=Dec 18 2012, 09:22 PM:name=SpaceJew)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SpaceJew @ Dec 18 2012, 09:22 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2047721"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The same people are in every 'nerf camo' thread, so I don't' know how legitimate you are. I remember there being a ton of 'nerf GL' threads not that long ago. GL was not nerfed in response to that.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Well considering the fact you can counter grenades by forcing the Marine to blow themself up, or having whips throw them back or using clog walls to get the Marine to waste them then its not like the counters aren't there. But look at that. 1 fairly effective counter and two other options to counter it. How strange there. Its almost like there's a choice there.
<!--quoteo(post=2047721:date=Dec 18 2012, 09:22 PM:name=SpaceJew)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SpaceJew @ Dec 18 2012, 09:22 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2047721"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You really aren't paying attention, are you? I don't <i>care</i> if they remove Camo.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> considering how much you're here defending it I question the legitimacy of that comment but still.
<!--quoteo(post=2047721:date=Dec 18 2012, 09:22 PM:name=SpaceJew)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SpaceJew @ Dec 18 2012, 09:22 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2047721"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm just pointing out what big cry babies n00bs are in NS2.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> You know, it wasn't until you said that, that I decided to put out an alternative hypothesis. The hypothesis is this. You are an elitist who merely wants to "Pwn some Noobs Y'all" you know intrinsically Camo has an problem however as it will take away an easy way to "Pwn some noobs" you don't want to see this go. Quite why when there's no levelling and as yet that I know of no huge universal player stat tracking I don't know why. You're constant statement about not caring is merely an attempt to mask an actual desire to see this kept as is due to it benefiting you. I won't go so far as to say you're part of a bigger problem of players seeing new people as something to be looked down upon and stamped out due to them coming into "your thing" nor will I suggest this desire to "Pwn" is born very much in the 18 hour a day Wow player style of making up for something in real life. As both of those would be absurd to suggest. However it s becoming clear you're displaying very characteristic signs shown by a group often referred to in free to play games as Wallet warriors.
<!--quoteo(post=2047721:date=Dec 18 2012, 09:22 PM:name=SpaceJew)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SpaceJew @ Dec 18 2012, 09:22 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2047721"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think the Marines Command needs a serious look to see how it can have the skill floor lowered to be effective. Maybe making scans free and on a timer is a solution, but it's a solution to a problem that only exists at the lowest possible skill level of play. To be honest, any 'nerfs' or 'balance' changes are probably not going to make Marines Command something your average player can just 'pick up' and do well with. The fact people want nerfs to aliens before they've even put in a dozen hours into Marines Command makes me want to laugh and cry at the same time.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> So the fact a problem is that obvious it doesn't require dozens of command hours because anyone can see the issue isn't equally laughable ? Or the Fact people are defending something claiming balance etc when in the original game it had a personal direct counter when the original game was considered the more balanced one doesn't bring tears of laughter out ?
<!--quoteo(post=2047721:date=Dec 18 2012, 09:22 PM:name=SpaceJew)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SpaceJew @ Dec 18 2012, 09:22 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2047721"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You <i>can</i> do anything, but the fact of the matter is one Onos versus one Single-Gun Exo is handing a massive advantage to the Onos. You know, it <i>is</i> possible to be a better player than some guy on the Aliens team? I've killed an Onos single-handedly as a regular Marine while circle strafring. The poor jerk couldn't <i>hit</i> me, and he died because of it. Does that mean one Marine is a counter to Onos? Sadly, no it does not.
TL;DR
L2P<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> And there we have it, the cry of the elitist smeghead "L2P."
The fact on many servers you'll see exos not being used defensively more than offensively at Onos level of play suggests its entirely possible. But a fairly top end research item vs the top end alien does kind of match up especially with the Marine side having the weapons 3 on its side and Mac support to tip the balance a bit.
95% used by skulks crawling around the map then jumping/running 50m from a rifle marine 5% used by stomp onos
Fun for the whole family<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I believe 1% by people playing Lerk like me sitting just out of obs range constantly harassing Marines
Witnessed early camo fail every game last night. It can appear OP to the new player or unskilled commander but its such a detriment to aliens if they are locked into two hives. A crag-shift setup with two hives is going to have a chance of pushing out a marine base. A shade-shift or shade-crag setup is weak and countered once marines turtle and tech.
Wait for the metagame to catch up a bit and I don't think there'll be much more talk about OP Camo.
<!--quoteo(post=2047767:date=Dec 18 2012, 11:37 PM:name=hus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (hus @ Dec 18 2012, 11:37 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2047767"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Witnessed early camo fail every game last night. It can appear OP to the new player or unskilled commander but its such a detriment to aliens if they are locked into two hives. A crag-shift setup with two hives is going to have a chance of pushing out a marine base. A shade-shift or shade-crag setup is weak and countered once marines turtle and tech.
Wait for the metagame to catch up a bit and I don't think there'll be much more talk about OP Camo.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> unfortunately the Meta game can then evolve again to make camo relevant due to how little of the shade hive abilities are being used
I love how all of Dwarf's arguments are centered around pin point precision skulks and derp Marines.
He's dropping knowledge bombs left and right, don'tcha know?
Grand total of four shade abilities.
Chamber Upgrades (Camo, Silence), Shade Structure, Ink, and Hallucinations.
I'd say people are using 3/4 of the shade 'tree', so please tell me how it's being 'under utilized' again?
Oh, I see now. It's the OP Hallucinations, right? Or those omnipresent fully mature shades with ink already deployed?
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You are an elitist who merely wants to "Pwn some Noobs Y'all" you know intrinsically Camo has an problem however as it will take away an easy way to "Pwn some noobs" you don't want to see this go. Quite why when there's no levelling and as yet that I know of no huge universal player stat tracking I don't know why. You're constant statement about not caring is merely an attempt to mask an actual desire to see this kept as is due to it benefiting you. I won't go so far as to say you're part of a bigger problem of players seeing new people as something to be looked down upon and stamped out due to them coming into "your thing" nor will I suggest this desire to "Pwn" is born very much in the 18 hour a day Wow player style of making up for something in real life. As both of those would be absurd to suggest. However it s becoming clear you're displaying very characteristic signs shown by a group often referred to in free to play games as Wallet warriors.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, you <i>really</i> don't know me. I'm calling you a n00b because I know, <i>for a fact</i>, that Camo first is the weakest strategy you can field at the moment <i>unless</i> the other team sucks. If the Marines team sucks, they lose no matter what. Aliens have to drop the ball <i>so badly</i> for a crappy Marines team to win that you will virtually never see it happen. I don't like spawn camping crappy other teams, and believe me or not I don't go Camo first <i>ever</i> because I know it opens you up to a long, painful loss to a decent other team. By the time you know they're good enough, they're taking down your second hive that isn't finished building yet and you have no harvesters. That assumes they don't just put you out of your misery at the start with an armory and an Obs outside your hive while they pick off eggs.
I'm sorry you haven't played against or with a damn good Marines commander, as you wouldn't be here moaning for nerfs if you had.
<!--quoteo(post=2047802:date=Dec 19 2012, 12:30 PM:name=SpaceJew)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SpaceJew @ Dec 19 2012, 12:30 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2047802"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yeah, you <i>really</i> don't know me. I'm calling you a n00b because I know, <i>for a fact</i>, that Camo first is the weakest strategy you can field at the moment <i>unless</i> the other team sucks. If the Marines team sucks, they lose no matter what. Aliens have to drop the ball <i>so badly</i> for a crappy Marines team to win that you will virtually never see it happen. I don't like spawn camping crappy other teams, and believe me or not I don't go Camo first <i>ever</i> because I know it opens you up to a long, painful loss to a decent other team. By the time you know they're good enough, they're taking down your second hive that isn't finished building yet and you have no harvesters. That assumes they don't just put you out of your misery at the start with an armory and an Obs outside your hive while they pick off eggs.
I'm sorry you haven't played against or with a damn good Marines commander, as you wouldn't be here moaning for nerfs if you had.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Fixed exploit allowing a cloaked Alien to run at full speed if they were holding down the jump button.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Just wanted to post this here, seems relevant to the current discussion. ^_^
This is from 224's patch notes, implemented today.
<!--quoteo(post=2047802:date=Dec 19 2012, 01:30 AM:name=SpaceJew)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SpaceJew @ Dec 19 2012, 01:30 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2047802"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I love how all of Dwarf's arguments are centered around pin point precision skulks and derp Marines.
He's dropping knowledge bombs left and right, don'tcha know?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Google Reductio ad absurdum I told you exactly what I was doing there as you were doing the exact same with your arguement about how stealth turns aliens into baby kittens who can't do anything. So well done for pointing out exactly what was meant by Reductio ad absurdum without realising it. The fact that it is in the realms of possibility (not probability) highlights the issue as somehow Howard here thinks Marines can use their mystical psychic powers to know an invisible enemy is creeping to point blank on them. Or that Marines do nothing but fire constantly in front of them incase there's a cloaked alien their
<!--quoteo(post=2047802:date=Dec 19 2012, 01:30 AM:name=SpaceJew)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SpaceJew @ Dec 19 2012, 01:30 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2047802"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Grand total of four shade abilities.
Chamber Upgrades (Camo, Silence), Shade Structure, Ink, and Hallucinations.
I'd say people are using 3/4 of the shade 'tree', so please tell me how it's being 'under utilized' again?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Ink is rare to see deployed and if at all and hallucinations, forget about it. I think in probably the 50 hours I've played so far I've seen ink twice.
<!--quoteo(post=2047802:date=Dec 19 2012, 01:30 AM:name=SpaceJew)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SpaceJew @ Dec 19 2012, 01:30 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2047802"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Oh, I see now. It's the OP Hallucinations, right? Or those omnipresent fully mature shades with ink already deployed?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Now it looks like you have a comprehension issue here.
Have I called for Neutron Fluxx cannons ? No Have I called Hallucinations OP ? NO Have I even called Camo OP ? NO
So please stop telling everyone my argument is that the Aliens should be replaced by Barney the dinosaur because the Marines are so strong they can punch a whole in the fabric of space time and kill Hitler using his body to poison the Aliens.
<!--quoteo(post=2047802:date=Dec 19 2012, 01:30 AM:name=SpaceJew)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SpaceJew @ Dec 19 2012, 01:30 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2047802"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yeah, you <i>really</i> don't know me. I'm calling you a n00b because I know, <i>for a fact</i>,<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Oh you know for a fact I'm a noob despite as you've pointed out we've not run into one another ? Strange that almost like I don't need to argue as you've done the counter argument yourself there
<!--quoteo(post=2047802:date=Dec 19 2012, 01:30 AM:name=SpaceJew)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SpaceJew @ Dec 19 2012, 01:30 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2047802"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->that Camo first is the weakest strategy you can field at the moment <i>unless</i> the other team sucks. If the Marines team sucks, they lose no matter what. Aliens have to drop the ball <i>so badly</i> for a crappy Marines team to win that you will virtually never see it happen. I don't like spawn camping crappy other teams, and believe me or not I don't go Camo first <i>ever</i> because I know it opens you up to a long, painful loss to a decent other team. By the time you know they're good enough, they're taking down your second hive that isn't finished building yet and you have no harvesters. That assumes they don't just put you out of your misery at the start with an armory and an Obs outside your hive while they pick off eggs.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Know what you're pointing out again is that people don't use all the shade hive gives you. Crag + shift is a standard faster tougher style while Shade offers an alternative. In Deus ex or Elder scrolls terms. Crag + shift is upgrading attack + health while shade is upgrading sneaking. With a good enough team and commander any is viable not simply your one. This game isn't starcraft 1, it offers choices and there's not a "do this to win" with the most efficient execution being the winner.
Also you're now all over the shop with this counter. You're now saying the Marines have to rush the hive together while splitting up and taking harvesters round the map ?
<!--quoteo(post=2047802:date=Dec 19 2012, 01:30 AM:name=SpaceJew)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SpaceJew @ Dec 19 2012, 01:30 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2047802"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm sorry you haven't played against or with a damn good Marines commander, as you wouldn't be here moaning for nerfs if you had.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Well considering I've played with gonarch well done for insulting him dude and anyone who has played in the same match as me. So other than the anecdotal evidence do you have anything to counter the numbers I pointed out ? as now I've presented the case on anecdotal and numerical evidence yet your only argument is you've seen shade first countered when you haven't said how good or bad the enemy commander was at using it only that a shade first team can lose. All you've put forward is that shade first isn't OP you haven't pointed out a way its balanced beyond saying "Oh its perfectly balanced to have to regularly spend 3 Tres against something that runs for free on the other team"
<!--quoteo(post=2047694:date=Dec 18 2012, 09:28 PM:name=Dwavenhobble)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Dwavenhobble @ Dec 18 2012, 09:28 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2047694"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If you do 3 scans to find the hive that's 9 res, then to go directly to the hive its at least another 3 scans to make sure so 9 more res at least hence the higher tech cost I put forward as at present for scans etc it is costing that much already so to say it would delay Marines Tech further, would mean the Marine commander had gone for both Obs scanning and the other option. Otherwise that is roughly how many res it does cost at present scanning so the alternative was suggested at roughly the same tech costs.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's not anything near any reality I can possibly imagine.
If you don't know your enemies start Hive location after max. 1 min into game without any scan whatsoever you are probably too bad to win in any scenario anyways.
And to rush a hive you don't need 10000 scans. You just move the room before the hive with 3 or 4 ppl, max 1 scan needed. Then build pg in that room, max 1 scan needed. Whole team phases in, run into hive and shoots it. You can scan here but you dont have to, ppl know where the hive hangs anyways and shooting skulks is not necessarily part of the plan. Hive is down after 2-3 lmg mags per person and there comes the gg.
If youre from europe just come to play on Yoclan server and have a look how shade is dealt with. Yesterday we had a beginner comm(good player but new to comming), the kind of beginner comm who is bad at multitasking and lets you wait for a rt 1 or 2 minutes at times but we still won against a good alien team going shade first. Why? because shade first is the worst worst worst upgrade there is.
It's like you play counter strike for the first time and get 1 shot by awp several times in close range. Then you go to CS forums and complain about awp being not balanced as it's a sniper rifle and therefor should suck at close range. What you forget about the whole ting: AWP actually IS bad at close range. But if you are not able to kill the guy holding the AWP at point blank with your M4 that's no balance issue. YOU are the problem.
It's the same as if in SC2 someone always 6pools you because you refuse to wall in. You go to the forums and cry how badly balanced 6 pool is because is forces you to build the second depot when you really don't need the supply.
It's like you play SC2 and someone always kill you with brute force roach. You dont like to build tanks and marauders and complain about marines being not efficient against roaches. You want a upgrade for them to get rocket launchers.
It's like playing Quake 3 and complaining about the rocket launcher, because good people keep trolling you by shooting you into the void and you have a -500 score. You say there really should be a proper counter against it besides dodging the rockets.
It's like you play Battlefield 3 and someone pwns you really hard with a jet. You go to the forums to complain that there really should be a good counter against jets besides jets, because jets need too much skill.
It's like you play Battlefield 3 and someone pwns you really hard with a tank. You go to the forums to complain that there really should be a good counter against tanks besides rpg soldiers, jets, helis and tanks, because you really want to play assault because you like the M16A3 the most.
<!--quoteo(post=2047738:date=Dec 18 2012, 05:18 PM:name=Gliss)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gliss @ Dec 18 2012, 05:18 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2047738"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->camouflage is unbalanced in the sense that the level of execution required from aliens to make camouflage effective is drastically lower than the level of execution required to defend it<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The simplest and best argument in this entire thread.
<!--quoteo(post=2045601:date=Dec 14 2012, 01:55 PM:name=Mr.Greedy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mr.Greedy @ Dec 14 2012, 01:55 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2045601"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Just give any marine the ability to uncloack anything (like an obs) in front of the marine ( 180 degree ) for , lets say, 5-6 meters. Seems fair.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Everything 1m (or some other distance) around the Marine and Marine buildings should be uncloaked, rather than only the things the marine touches. It'll mean a pack of skulk can't just stealth right up to some marines before they bite. Should help even things out more than messing around with the actual skills themselves.
<!--quoteo(post=2047991:date=Dec 19 2012, 11:51 AM:name=gnoarch)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (gnoarch @ Dec 19 2012, 11:51 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2047991"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->That's not anything near any reality I can possibly imagine.
If you don't know your enemies start Hive location after max. 1 min into game without any scan whatsoever you are probably too bad to win in any scenario anyways.
And to rush a hive you don't need 10000 scans. You just move the room before the hive with 3 or 4 ppl, max 1 scan needed. Then build pg in that room, max 1 scan needed. Whole team phases in, run into hive and shoots it. You can scan here but you dont have to, ppl know where the hive hangs anyways and shooting skulks is not necessarily part of the plan. Hive is down after 2-3 lmg mags per person and there comes the gg.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Even so firstly you either have to secure the room or do a higher risk rush as focusing in the hive won't stop Skulks already on the map and anyone defending the hive from coming into play. Also if they shaded their eggs you might find you get picked off there or delayed. Its far from a fool proof counter
<!--quoteo(post=2047991:date=Dec 19 2012, 11:51 AM:name=gnoarch)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (gnoarch @ Dec 19 2012, 11:51 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2047991"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If youre from europe just come to play on Yoclan server and have a look how shade is dealt with. Yesterday we had a beginner comm(good player but new to comming), the kind of beginner comm who is bad at multitasking and lets you wait for a rt 1 or 2 minutes at times but we still won against a good alien team going shade first. Why? because shade first is the worst worst worst upgrade there is.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Actually I have played on the Yoclan server (I avoided it for a while because I honestly thought it was some Yogscast thing.)
I have been around and not just sitting on rookie servers the whole time. shade is viable in the right hands and at present its unbalanced, not op but unbalanced
<!--quoteo(post=2047991:date=Dec 19 2012, 11:51 AM:name=gnoarch)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (gnoarch @ Dec 19 2012, 11:51 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2047991"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It's like you play counter strike for the first time and get 1 shot by awp several times in close range. Then you go to CS forums and complain about awp being not balanced as it's a sniper rifle and therefor should suck at close range. What you forget about the whole ting: AWP actually IS bad at close range. But if you are not able to kill the guy holding the AWP at point blank with your M4 that's no balance issue. YOU are the problem.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Unfortunately AWP doesn't make the user invisible to unless the enemy keeps paying for Anti AWP. Essentially if the AWP let you get 1 free shot in at maximum damage without the enemy knowing you're there then I have no doubt people would complain about it, however it doesn't.
<!--quoteo(post=2047991:date=Dec 19 2012, 11:51 AM:name=gnoarch)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (gnoarch @ Dec 19 2012, 11:51 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2047991"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It's the same as if in SC2 someone always 6pools you because you refuse to wall in. You go to the forums and cry how badly balanced 6 pool is because is forces you to build the second depot when you really don't need the supply.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> However thats an example of coutner play working while countering cloak its a constant resource drain its not building a wall once. A counter in that style to cloak would be what's being said here, a pricey bit of tech research but that doesn't have continual Tres cost only Pres cost after that. It gives you the choice of "oh do I get Welders and run obs or do I research this and have some of my squad carrying this instead of welders etc.
<!--quoteo(post=2047991:date=Dec 19 2012, 11:51 AM:name=gnoarch)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (gnoarch @ Dec 19 2012, 11:51 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2047991"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It's like you play SC2 and someone always kill you with brute force roach. You dont like to build tanks and marauders and complain about marines being not efficient against roaches. You want a upgrade for them to get rocket launchers.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Unfortunately Exos don't counter cloak this example is more like people not wanting to Exo up to fight Onos because they could lose that 50 Pres (or 75 if they go dual)
<!--quoteo(post=2047991:date=Dec 19 2012, 11:51 AM:name=gnoarch)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (gnoarch @ Dec 19 2012, 11:51 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2047991"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It's like playing Quake 3 and complaining about the rocket launcher, because good people keep trolling you by shooting you into the void and you have a -500 score. You say there really should be a proper counter against it besides dodging the rockets.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> However in most FPS games power weapons do have a counter in other power weapons. Also Quake 3 is more arcade arena based than tactical combat based.
<!--quoteo(post=2047991:date=Dec 19 2012, 11:51 AM:name=gnoarch)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (gnoarch @ Dec 19 2012, 11:51 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2047991"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It's like you play Battlefield 3 and someone pwns you really hard with a jet. You go to the forums to complain that there really should be a good counter against jets besides jets, because jets need too much skill.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Actually there is a counter to Jets, multiple infact. 1) Lock on missile 2) AA guns 3) Jets 4) Guided missiles (you need someone to work the laser aimer but it can be done and is stupidly effective.) 5) Tanks, its possible for a highly skilled player to hit a jet with a Tank shell
<!--quoteo(post=2047991:date=Dec 19 2012, 11:51 AM:name=gnoarch)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (gnoarch @ Dec 19 2012, 11:51 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2047991"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It's like you play Battlefield 3 and someone pwns you really hard with a tank. You go to the forums to complain that there really should be a good counter against tanks besides rpg soldiers, jets, helis and tanks, because you really want to play assault because you like the M16A3 the most.
When did we play together?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Also counters to Tanks. C4 traps Mines Repair bots Blowtorches
all can be used to coutner Tanks infact in BF3 the Tanks are the weakest and easiest to kill incarnation in a long while.
It was probabaly 2-3 night ago now I recognise your name though. I was most likely the guy doing really stupid suicidal runs on your base most of the time as that's kind of my specialist area
<!--quoteo(post=2045439:date=Dec 14 2012, 04:26 AM:name=Swiftspear)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Swiftspear @ Dec 14 2012, 04:26 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2045439"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Camo is neither OP nor "broken". It's very counterable in the hands of a decent commander. It's more that we don't have a super high population of those decent commanders in NS2 at this moment in time. I agree with your motion tracking point. There was an expensive one click upgrade a bad commander could use to give his team a fighting chance against cloakers in NS1. In NS2 you don't have that, you just HAVE to scan effectively and intelligently (although it really doesn't require THAT much APM, we're talking a maximum of 3-5 scans a minute).
I think the real difficult is that it's a skill balance thing. If you scan too much you're broke, if you don't scan enough your marines all die. For some players it can be really hard to understand that one extreme or the other will not work. They're not used to games punishing them for exhibiting style, whether it be conservative style or excessive style. But countering cloakers is an optimums thing. You need to get maximum mileage out of minimum scan. It's VERY doable, but the intellectual part is the catching point.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This pretty much sums it up. The marine commander has to stay on top of scans and be proactive in doing them until he has the resource base to invest in multiple observatories. If he does it right, he completely negates the aliens first tech choice giving his team a huge advantage.
It seems like the crux of the argument is that Camo sucks. The issue is not that it's good, but rather that its bad enough that changing it in any way just makes it pointless.
So on the one hand we have a player saying that there needs to be a marine counter over and above the present counters in place because scans and obs are resource intensive and on the other hand we have players saying that anything short of the present camo design is 100% useless vs. a skilled player (and eventually, most players in the game will be skilled and thus nerfing camo or adding new counters will eventually doom it)
I'm just going to go out on a limb and say you're both right.
Camo does require some effort to counter in a cost effective fashion. The easiest counter is at present is to simply rush the alien hive and the second runner up is an obs/PG combo next to the hive cutting off 50% of the map and setting the stage for raide/arcs. If you don't do one of these things, you're going to have a situation where scans and RT harrass bleed the marines out over time, but this should still end up with the marines locking down the alien 3rd hive location because it only takes an obs and some good aim to pretty much hold out against anything short of Onos. This gives the aliens about 10 minutes from the time they go early shade to secure 3+ RTs and a second hive while the team banks up for an Onos.... and then that Onos has to secure the third or deny the marine second or its GG.
This is why the simplest counter is to just rush/egg-lock and win because scanning the solitary hive and gunning down naked skulks is VERY cost effective. Game size has a lot to do with how effective this is, but in general, if the teams are even, the marines will have killed enough skulks on the push to thin the alien numbers through egg-lock and the slippery slope kicks in. For aliens, the best counter is to just cloak up and rush the marine base. Hence, the shade first build is (or should result in) base rushes.
---- I think that adding in another counter will only shorten the time it takes for the aliens to lose the advantage that camo brings. In some cases, it will completely negate it if its in the hands of a smart player.
However, discussion of hypothetical counters don't have to be zero-sum games. If adding another marine (infantry based) counter would cripple camo, how about just designing it in a way that allows for smart alien play to mitigate it.
Just as an example... giving marines a 5 P-res "motion scanner" along the lines of Aliens colonial marines wouldn't be all that bad... because using the scanner would take the place of your weapon... so you could pull out the scanner to sweep an area but not be able to shoot anything because scanners are not guns ;) You could also just make them not work vs. any target that isn't actually moving so skulks could just "go dark" until the scanner is put away or passes by. Finally, you could add in environmental effects to confuse the scanner in certain areas like lava falls and smelting, or system waypointing and topo for another... any room could just have a negative effect on scanners which could create a safe zone for skulk movement and shades could naturally emanate this effect.
The point is that there is no need to stake out positions on the subject that are absolute provided we agree that everything is open to tweaking.
Ultimately, the real question is whether or not anything actually needs to change. IMO, the present system makes camo too strong for its cost which is why it ends in base-rushing, but I don't see adding in a mid-game counter being the solution because the game will almost always end in a rush or crippling early blow to one side or the other given the actual effects that shade first has on the game.
<!--quoteo(post=2045508:date=Dec 14 2012, 04:34 AM:name=Dwavenhobble)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Dwavenhobble @ Dec 14 2012, 04:34 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2045508"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The issue I can see with Camo is this. Veil costs 15 to get Camo up
Obs takes 15 to set up 3 after that every time to nulify stealth.
Essentially you're setting up a way to force Marines to have to spend far more resources to counter when their scan is temporary while Camo is permanent.
Additionally and here's the kicker. Aliens have an anti scan capable structure in the form of a shade which costs the same as an obs meaning they still get the advantage of Camo and can counter Marines for a cost of only 15 more resources per area and 3 for ink each time.
The possible solutions I see are.
1) The one I suggested with a Marine item to counter it but that only works on stealth and hinder them otherwise. Essentially creating a marine counter thats mostly useless. It could even be done as a 15 recourse research permanent upgrade as then each side has a counter and a return counter in the form of EMF and camo and then Shade and Obs 2) Cut the observatory cost to 5 resources and a scan to 2 or even 1 so the resource cost vs counter is the same<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
agree with you dude.and please guys stop acting like kids.If you love this game you should enjoy both sides.I always go for aliens (80 % win ratio) and sorry : "they are way too op " . camo is fine as abbility but where is the counter?? you gonna tell me "decent commander or team or such a stupid talk".Pub games aren´t high level skill cap. 15 res for permanent vs commander-scan and obs (15 res + 3 res every 5 sec) isn´t fair.the best solution in my opinion is adding a simple purchasable Marine equipment from the Armory ("Scanner"cost 5 res) it can be used only if its equipped (holding it in Hand like a Welder) . Conclusion : alien-player if you wanna stay Hidden you have to move quietly and slowly losing the advantage of high mobility/ Marine-player if you wanna secure an area you have to take the risk of pulling your gadget (Scanner) out and being vulnerable. that's it ..Critics with valid arguments are welcome and sorry for my poor English.
<!--quoteo(post=2048312:date=Dec 19 2012, 08:03 PM:name=bakkoto)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (bakkoto @ Dec 19 2012, 08:03 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2048312"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->agree with you dude.and please guys stop acting like kids.If you love this game you should enjoy both sides.I always go for aliens (80 % win ratio) and sorry : "they are way too op " . camo is fine as abbility but where is the counter?? you gonna tell me "decent commander or team or such a stupid talk".Pub games aren´t high level skill cap. 15 res for permanent vs commander-scan and obs (15 res + 3 res every 5 sec) isn´t fair.the best solution in my opinion is adding a simple purchasable Marine equipment from the Armory ("Scanner"cost 5 res) it can be used only if its equipped (holding it in Hand like a Welder) . Conclusion : alien-player if you wanna stay Hidden you have to move quietly and slowly losing the advantage of high mobility/ Marine-player if you wanna secure an area you have to take the risk of pulling your gadget (Scanner) out and being vulnerable. that's it ..Critics with valid arguments are welcome and sorry for my poor English.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well NS1 had the perfect counter to camo. Motion tracking, which is what this thread was meant to be about. Motion tracking showed the marines where nearby aliens that weren't walking are. It didn't decloak the alien either if the marine was tracking them. It ensured if you wanted to be completely unknown to the marines you had to be slow and steady. But if you ran to the room and cloaked outside of it the marines would see the blip of you when you were running and know you're there. This allows them to be more prepared for a fight and offers a chance to scan if need be. Of course aliens can trick marines into wasting scans, as well as get marines to camp one doorway while your team goes through another, with this so it's not all one-sided.
Motion tracking was a one-time upgrade you could buy that worked around all marines.
<!--quoteo(post=2048429:date=Dec 20 2012, 08:20 AM:name=Shrimm)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Shrimm @ Dec 20 2012, 08:20 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2048429"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Well NS1 had the perfect counter to camo. Motion tracking, which is what this thread was meant to be about. Motion tracking showed the marines where nearby aliens that weren't walking are. It didn't decloak the alien either if the marine was tracking them. It ensured if you wanted to be completely unknown to the marines you had to be slow and steady. But if you ran to the room and cloaked outside of it the marines would see the blip of you when you were running and know you're there. This allows them to be more prepared for a fight and offers a chance to scan if need be. Of course aliens can trick marines into wasting scans, as well as get marines to camp one doorway while your team goes through another, with this so it's not all one-sided.
Motion tracking was a one-time upgrade you could buy that worked around all marines.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes actually I wanted to write on NS1 Motion tracking today. As far as I remember, in NS1 cloaking was fairly similar to the incarnation we hve now. You were invisible as long as you were sneaking. There was obs and scan to uncloak you. So just for the sake of getting things straight: Cloak was kind of the same in NS1 and was not regarded as imbalanced at all. Also the only reason why SC first was viable in the later stages of NS1 was afair Focus. For anyone who does not know: Focus was an upgrade like camo which enabled you to basically one-shot armor 0 marines. One-shot. Imagine this thread if you could One-shot marines with shade first Hive O_o
Ok now to motion tracking. I am not opposed to MT, i think it is a cool upgrade and fits quite well into the whole theme of NS.
BUT: Motion tracking as we know from NS1 would not really help with the issues people complain about in this thread. Why?
1) The simplest reason is that MT was quite expensive and took long to research. At least I remember motion tracking as a mid to lategame upgrade and was more of a "cherry on the cake" thing for marines because now you would not have to be that much at alert at any time.
2) It simply does not adress the problem with cloaking people complain about in this thread. It does not. Even with MT skulks on pubs would sneak up to marines and kill them. Even if a noob marine knows that a skulk has entered a room before he would most likely not find him(btw. you can hear if a skulk runs so u basically can know that there was a skulk running into a room)
3) To uncloak aliens around a shade you still would need those EXPENSIVE EXPENSIVE scans that bankrupt you no matter what, why and when.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Just as an example... giving marines a 5 P-res "motion scanner" along the lines of Aliens colonial marines wouldn't be all that bad... because using the scanner would take the place of your weapon... so you could pull out the scanner to sweep an area but not be able to shoot anything because scanners are not guns ;) You could also just make them not work vs. any target that isn't actually moving so skulks could just "go dark" until the scanner is put away or passes by. Finally, you could add in environmental effects to confuse the scanner in certain areas like lava falls and smelting, or system waypointing and topo for another... any room could just have a negative effect on scanners which could create a safe zone for skulk movement and shades could naturally emanate this effect.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This sounds cool and stuff but in the end Marines would get pwnd even harder becauase 1) If have to spend pres on a MT device you cant affor shotguns and all the awesome stuff that enables marines to win 2) If you are a noob Marine(non noobs dont need this device in the first place) you will get pwned even harder by any camo skulk with ANY brains. They would just stand still when they see you take out the MT device. Then once the room is "clear" and you take out you lmg again they would sneak 3 circles around you because they can and then kill you.
In my opinion this discussion has reached the point where there is no point in going on anymore. Everone who still thinks camo is that much imbalanced just needs another 40 or 50 hours with the game. Or just complain in the forums for some more time and then either get back to playing NS2 or look for a less complicated game.
<!--quoteo(post=2048253:date=Dec 19 2012, 11:24 PM:name=Troubleshooter)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Troubleshooter @ Dec 19 2012, 11:24 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2048253"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It seems like the crux of the argument is that Camo sucks. The issue is not that it's good, but rather that its bad enough that changing it in any way just makes it pointless.
So on the one hand we have a player saying that there needs to be a marine counter over and above the present counters in place because scans and obs are resource intensive and on the other hand we have players saying that anything short of the present camo design is 100% useless vs. a skilled player (and eventually, most players in the game will be skilled and thus nerfing camo or adding new counters will eventually doom it)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Actually due to how little of the shade hive stuff is used I don't think it will be doomed its just we're yet to see it used to lure people into horrifying traps
<!--quoteo(post=2048253:date=Dec 19 2012, 11:24 PM:name=Troubleshooter)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Troubleshooter @ Dec 19 2012, 11:24 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2048253"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm just going to go out on a limb and say you're both right.
Camo does require some effort to counter in a cost effective fashion. The easiest counter is at present is to simply rush the alien hive and the second runner up is an obs/PG combo next to the hive cutting off 50% of the map and setting the stage for raide/arcs. If you don't do one of these things, you're going to have a situation where scans and RT harrass bleed the marines out over time, but this should still end up with the marines locking down the alien 3rd hive location because it only takes an obs and some good aim to pretty much hold out against anything short of Onos. This gives the aliens about 10 minutes from the time they go early shade to secure 3+ RTs and a second hive while the team banks up for an Onos.... and then that Onos has to secure the third or deny the marine second or its GG.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Actually on 2 Hives the aliens can still turn it round with Camo as long as its taken time for Marines to secure point 3 and that peopl have saved for their Onos. As very few Marine commanders spread the RT portals they might have two of three bases with them but all you need in the Onos on one and the rest of the team on the other and to force their commander to beacon them
<!--quoteo(post=2048253:date=Dec 19 2012, 11:24 PM:name=Troubleshooter)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Troubleshooter @ Dec 19 2012, 11:24 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2048253"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This is why the simplest counter is to just rush/egg-lock and win because scanning the solitary hive and gunning down naked skulks is VERY cost effective. Game size has a lot to do with how effective this is, but in general, if the teams are even, the marines will have killed enough skulks on the push to thin the alien numbers through egg-lock and the slippery slope kicks in. For aliens, the best counter is to just cloak up and rush the marine base. Hence, the shade first build is (or should result in) base rushes.
---- I think that adding in another counter will only shorten the time it takes for the aliens to lose the advantage that camo brings. In some cases, it will completely negate it if its in the hands of a smart player.
However, discussion of hypothetical counters don't have to be zero-sum games. If adding another marine (infantry based) counter would cripple camo, how about just designing it in a way that allows for smart alien play to mitigate it.
Just as an example... giving marines a 5 P-res "motion scanner" along the lines of Aliens colonial marines wouldn't be all that bad... because using the scanner would take the place of your weapon... so you could pull out the scanner to sweep an area but not be able to shoot anything because scanners are not guns ;) You could also just make them not work vs. any target that isn't actually moving so skulks could just "go dark" until the scanner is put away or passes by. Finally, you could add in environmental effects to confuse the scanner in certain areas like lava falls and smelting, or system waypointing and topo for another... any room could just have a negative effect on scanners which could create a safe zone for skulk movement and shades could naturally emanate this effect.
The point is that there is no need to stake out positions on the subject that are absolute provided we agree that everything is open to tweaking.
Ultimately, the real question is whether or not anything actually needs to change. IMO, the present system makes camo too strong for its cost which is why it ends in base-rushing, but I don't see adding in a mid-game counter being the solution because the game will almost always end in a rush or crippling early blow to one side or the other given the actual effects that shade first has on the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Or as I've said the EMF visor (as to avoid any obvious Alien Colonial marines rights issues) making non cloaked targets totally invisible and not picking up shade cloaked targets only the shade itself
<a href="http://youtu.be/EitZRLt2G3w" target="_blank">Adding this link in to Extra Credits explaining balancing as it might help some people </a>
<!--quoteo(post=2048051:date=Dec 19 2012, 10:04 AM:name=AFireInAsa)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (AFireInAsa @ Dec 19 2012, 10:04 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2048051"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The simplest and best argument in this entire thread.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
still doesnt make camp "broken"
thats like saying GL is "broken"
gl takes almost 0 skill to actually "use" but with a good player it can be great. i swear, people are crying like camo is the gg win button and its not
this is was camo looks like against decent marines: <img src="http://img5.uploadhouse.com/fileuploads/17060/1706006583e7e5c9f6b7d46795c358d30306c0f0.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
Comments
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The problem you guys dont see is that Aliens actually ARE OP but camo really is not. Things like power nodes and generally the transition from 0 Onos to 3 Onos within 1 minute screw pub marines much more than cheesy camo.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's basically it in a nutshell, although I don't really think Aliens are OP but rather Marines are too hard for pubbers to handle well enough to counter a team with an already linear progression.
If Camo was truly OP, everyone would be using it every game. Like Early Onos, you wouldn't be able to play a single game without Camo first. Since I hardly ever see this strategy on the dozen servers I play hundreds of hours on, I can only conclude you guys are wrong. The times I've seen Camo first are <i>by no means</i> already decided, as I see Aliens lose more often when they use this cheesy strategy against a Marines team that isn't full of green names. Does it win versus new Marines? Sure. Although to be honest, I don't know what would <i>win</i> for Marines with a n00b team since they almost <i>always</i> lose no matter what path the Aliens take.
If I had a nickle for every time I commanded a round where Aliens won within the first five minutes of the game I'd be a rich SOB. Maybe the 'problem' with cloaking for you guys is that they camp right outside your base rather than killing your IP's and winning in five minutes. This is because you're being trolled by better players, believe it or not.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Actually Onos do have a counter, its called Weapons 3 Exo.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Wow, this proves you really have no clue.
However you implied they were an easy kill in any scenario
The issue is if they're being used and utilised correctly any Marines discovering one would also discover a room full of "Oh god where's my face".
<!--quoteo(post=2047696:date=Dec 18 2012, 08:32 PM:name=SpaceJew)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SpaceJew @ Dec 18 2012, 08:32 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2047696"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You just don't have the experience to know what works and what doesn't, so I'm not going to argue with you about it any more. If you believe Camo is OP, go ahead and keep begging for nerfs. It won't make a difference to me, or anyone else that knows better. I've said it before I'll say it again, you could remove shade and every upgrade it provides from the game and it won't make a difference in 90% of matches. Aliens will still curb stomp n00bs like you.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Brushing people off on experience in such a way is also a bad way to go about it. As I pointed out before if something is not used in competitive play as it is (brushing aside the number differences in competitive play teams for a moment) and yet in public play its an issue then why shouldn't it be changed.
It won't harm the competitive play as they already don't use it however the change might help out public play and create a scenario where a persons death is their fault / their squads fault and not due to the commander failing in babysitting them.
As everyone keeps saying Marine commander has a lot more on their plate than aliens so the option to remove one reliance like that would be welcomed .
Having been round plenty of servers the amount of players both new and higher end pointing out how Camo has a problem is quite large. Heck the fact even a noob like me can abuse camo to get easy kills should tell you there's a problem with it.
All this will mean is people can't so easily Roflstomp the rookie servers with their highly organised groups going Camo right away.
It won't stop noob teams losing but it will stop Noob teams winning with Camo too
<!--quoteo(post=2047696:date=Dec 18 2012, 08:32 PM:name=SpaceJew)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SpaceJew @ Dec 18 2012, 08:32 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2047696"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->That's basically it in a nutshell, although I don't really think Aliens are OP but rather Marines are too hard for pubbers to handle well enough to counter a team with an already linear progression.
If Camo was truly OP, everyone would be using it every game. Like Early Onos, you wouldn't be able to play a single game without Camo first. Since I hardly ever see this strategy on the dozen servers I play hundreds of hours on, I can only conclude you guys are wrong. The times I've seen Camo first are <i>by no means</i> already decided, as I see Aliens lose more often when they use this cheesy strategy against a Marines team that isn't full of green names. Does it win versus new Marines? Sure. Although to be honest, I don't know what would <i>win</i> for Marines with a n00b team since they almost <i>always</i> lose no matter what path the Aliens take.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Again for the 4th time or so
<!--sizeo:6--><span style="font-size:24pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><b><!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro-->I AM NOT SAYING CAMO IS OP ONLY THAT IT IS NOT BALANCED.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--></b><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
<!--quoteo(post=2047696:date=Dec 18 2012, 08:32 PM:name=SpaceJew)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SpaceJew @ Dec 18 2012, 08:32 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2047696"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If I had a nickle for every time I commanded a round where Aliens won within the first five minutes of the game I'd be a rich SOB. Maybe the 'problem' with cloaking for you guys is that they camp right outside your base rather than killing your IP's and winning in five minutes. This is because you're being trolled by better players, believe it or not.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Its so funny. People are saying Camo has no problems and are on about competitive play etc when in NS1 the game so many hold up as the grand competitive game had a far more direct counter to Camo than any people are suggesting here or so I've been lead to believe by NS1 veterans.
Also you seem to suggest there's a counter to the enemy right outside your base when you're using your scans to essentially support your away team and having to rely on the obs passive to defend your base.
Again if Camo is so useless to competitive play and as you can see by the numerous threads such an issue in pub play, what are you losing by having a change ? Making it so noob alien teams will lost vs even mediocre Marine teams, but that'e exactly what you want, noob teams losing to better teams.
<!--quoteo(post=2047696:date=Dec 18 2012, 08:32 PM:name=SpaceJew)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SpaceJew @ Dec 18 2012, 08:32 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2047696"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Wow, this proves you really have no clue.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So the fact even a Noob like me can take down an Onos using an single gun Exo with weapons 3 and yes it was a Carapace celerity Onos means nothing about the validity of this ?
Again remember I am a real noob at this so me being able to do something suggests its perfectly possible to do with little issue.
Oh and before someone asks more I even killed the Onos with the Exo fist having shot it down and had it get close. Sure I only had 100 armour left but again I can do it so its possible for even a noob
The issue is if they're being used and utilised correctly any Marines discovering one would also discover a room full of "Oh god where's my face".<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
They are an easy kill in any scenario. Unless they're guarded by a team of Aliens, such as in a hive. A Mature shade has 1000HP, a newly build shade has 500 HP. Only a mature shade can drop ink. Neither of them has <i>any</i> armor. A single LMG clip, with no upgrades, does 500 damage per clip. Do the math.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Brushing people off on experience in such a way is also a bad way to go about it. As I pointed out before if something is not used in competitive play as it is (brushing aside the number differences in competitive play teams for a moment) and yet in public play its an issue then why shouldn't it be changed.
It won't harm the competitive play as they already don't use it however the change might help out public play and create a scenario where a persons death is their fault / their squads fault and not due to the commander failing in babysitting them.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It won't. Like I've said, nerf camo. Remove camo. Either way it makes no difference to anyone that knows anything. I think that if we start removing or nerfing things that don't work because completely new players are being beaten by it we should remove the aliens team as well and replace them with bots. Teeth on skulks should be replaced by nerf weapons, and lerks should shoot streamers and balloons instead of spikes. This would enable a completely clueless Marines team to maybe win some of the time.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->As everyone keeps saying Marine commander has a lot more on their plate than aliens so the option to remove one reliance like that would be welcomed .<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So in order to make the Marines team easier, we should nerf the other teams troll strategies leaving them with a core strategy that already wins more than Shade first. Yeah, your logic leaves something to be desired. Your lack of experience directly contributes to your belief that Camo is OP or 'imbalanced' or whatever word you want to use to describe your inability to play.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Having been round plenty of servers the amount of players both new and higher end pointing out how Camo has a problem is quite large. Heck the fact even a noob like me can abuse camo to get easy kills should tell you there's a problem with it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You're starting to see how stupid the Marines team is, huh? Good deal. I doubt the n00bs and the experienced players agree on why camo has problems though, since most good players have a problem with Camo being a horrible upgrade as first or second hive.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->All this will mean is people can't so easily Roflstomp the rookie servers with their highly organised groups going Camo right away.
It won't stop noob teams losing but it will stop Noob teams winning with Camo too<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hah. Shift/Crag/Shade stomps Marines way better than Camo no matter what skill level is involved. It's even <i>better</i> for highly organized groups of good players, since Camo actually nerfs your team in a lot of ways that you seem to be unable to see.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Again for the 4th time or so
<!--sizeo:6--><span style="font-size:24pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><b><!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro-->I AM NOT SAYING CAMO IS OP ONLY THAT IT IS NOT BALANCED.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--></b><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Why don't you go ahead and define balance for us. I'm not sure what you mean by Camo not being 'balanced' when there are hard counters, both permanent and temporary, available to the Marines that directly negate the camo upgrade.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Its so funny. People are saying Camo has no problems and are on about competitive play etc when in NS1 the game so many hold up as the grand competitive game had a far more direct counter to Camo than any people are suggesting here or so I've been lead to believe by NS1 veterans.
Also you seem to suggest there's a counter to the enemy right outside your base when you're using your scans to essentially support your away team and having to rely on the obs passive to defend your base.
Again if Camo is so useless to competitive play and as you can see by the numerous threads such an issue in pub play, what are you losing by having a change ? Making it so noob alien teams will lost vs even mediocre Marine teams, but that'e exactly what you want, noob teams losing to better teams.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The same people are in every 'nerf camo' thread, so I don't' know how legitimate you are. I remember there being a ton of 'nerf GL' threads not that long ago. GL was not nerfed in response to that. You really aren't paying attention, are you? I don't <i>care</i> if they remove Camo. I'm just pointing out what big cry babies n00bs are in NS2. I think the Marines Command needs a serious look to see how it can have the skill floor lowered to be effective. Maybe making scans free and on a timer is a solution, but it's a solution to a problem that only exists at the lowest possible skill level of play. To be honest, any 'nerfs' or 'balance' changes are probably not going to make Marines Command something your average player can just 'pick up' and do well with. The fact people want nerfs to aliens before they've even put in a dozen hours into Marines Command makes me want to laugh and cry at the same time.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So the fact even a Noob like me can take down an Onos using an single gun Exo with weapons 3 and yes it was a Carapace celerity Onos means nothing about the validity of this ?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You <i>can</i> do anything, but the fact of the matter is one Onos versus one Single-Gun Exo is handing a massive advantage to the Onos. You know, it <i>is</i> possible to be a better player than some guy on the Aliens team? I've killed an Onos single-handedly as a regular Marine while circle strafing. The poor jerk couldn't <i>hit</i> me, and he died because of it. Does that mean one Marine is a counter to Onos? Sadly, no it does not.
TL;DR
L2P
(Oh, you really were trolling huh. Oh well, I'm done with you. I'll just wait a few weeks while you learn how to play, then maybe we'll have some good conversations on what is and is not a good strategy.)
camouflage is unbalanced in the sense that the level of execution required from aliens to make camouflage effective is drastically lower than the level of execution required to defend it
Shades have quite a good strategic use at the expense of armour / durability. risk reward right there.
<!--quoteo(post=2047721:date=Dec 18 2012, 09:22 PM:name=SpaceJew)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SpaceJew @ Dec 18 2012, 09:22 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2047721"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It won't. Like I've said, nerf camo. Remove camo. Either way it makes no difference to anyone that knows anything.
I think that if we start removing or nerfing things that don't work because completely new players are being beaten by it we should remove the aliens team as well and replace them with bots. Teeth on skulks should be replaced by nerf weapons, and lerks should shoot streamers and balloons instead of spikes. This would enable a completely clueless Marines team to maybe win some of the time.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Any player who knows anything.
Really you're going with that because there are people on about how well balanced NS1 was and that had a near direct non commander based Camo counter.
See now you're actually making another error there. I never said remove Camo entirely I can see it has its place in the game. And to Reductio ad absurdum the counter Arguement. a pack of 4 skulks see a group of 7 Marines. Due to camo and cloak they sneak in and due to their positioning are able to position the mouth perfectly each marine takes a 75 damage bite and due to pack tactics and team of 4 skulks due to being able to use Camo to counter the Marines ranged weapon advantage kill off an entire squad at the cost of maybe 1 Skulk. the Marine have no idea where the hive is due to the shades hiding everything but the squelch as they walk on infestation and due to cosntant base pressure the com has to scan areas near the base and isn't able to work organise a push out to get the hive or to be able to scan to locate the hive.
<!--quoteo(post=2047721:date=Dec 18 2012, 09:22 PM:name=SpaceJew)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SpaceJew @ Dec 18 2012, 09:22 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2047721"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So in order to make the Marines team easier, we should nerf the other teams troll strategies leaving them with a core strategy that already wins more than Shade first. Yeah, your logic leaves something to be desired. Your lack of experience directly contributes to your belief that Camo is OP or 'imbalanced' or whatever word you want to use to describe your inability to play.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Did I suggest adding in Neutron fluxx cannons able to shoot Ion steams from the command centre to the hive ?
I'm pretty sure I didn't you know.
Its strange because that's what you're seemingly responding to here. Its strange as you're seemingly suggesting an item requiring direct line of sight to be able to see cloaked and only cloak generating units will become the ultimate unbeatable strategy. In that case alien vision is so OP as it highlights Marines, oh so very OP and needs nerfing because obviously being able to see an enemy highlighted and contrasted well is so OP and always wins nerf it now.
Or you know you might just be being a little bit silly about what's being suggested here and suggesting Iran has weapons of Mass destruction they can fire in 12 minutes against other countries.
<!--quoteo(post=2047721:date=Dec 18 2012, 09:22 PM:name=SpaceJew)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SpaceJew @ Dec 18 2012, 09:22 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2047721"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You're starting to see how stupid the Marines team is, huh? Good deal. I doubt the n00bs and the experienced players agree on why camo has problems though, since most good players have a problem with Camo being a horrible upgrade as first or second hive.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Depends again on the players. I ran into a group about who honestly were pretty damn good and went Shade first every round and won yet the one round they didn't they lost quite badly.
<!--quoteo(post=2047721:date=Dec 18 2012, 09:22 PM:name=SpaceJew)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SpaceJew @ Dec 18 2012, 09:22 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2047721"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Hah. Shift/Crag/Shade stomps Marines way better than Camo no matter what skill level is involved. It's even <i>better</i> for highly organized groups of good players, since Camo actually nerfs your team in a lot of ways that you seem to be unable to see.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Again this is because most of the time 75 -100% of the specialisation is being used compared to 25-50% of shade being used.
<!--quoteo(post=2047721:date=Dec 18 2012, 09:22 PM:name=SpaceJew)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SpaceJew @ Dec 18 2012, 09:22 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2047721"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Why don't you go ahead and define balance for us. I'm not sure what you mean by Camo not being 'balanced' when there are hard counters, both permanent and temporary, available to the Marines that directly negate the camo upgrade.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
OP = use it as short of removal of your brain also known and being a codpiece without opposable thumbs you will win.
Unbalanced = Puts the enemy team in a state where they are at a disadvantage / forces them to be at the disadvantage.
You say Obs + scans is a hard counter to Camo.
Its not.
Here's why
Camo costs aliens 15 resources and 0 personal to use
Observatories cost marines 15 resources then 3 per use outside of its effective area.
Now you could then say "Oh but Obs counters shade"
so
Shade cost = 15
Evolve hallucination = 15
use = 1 - 15
In about 7 scans caused by fake hallucinations you've done better cost wise then the Marines and remember its 6 scans or about that to take down a hive if you rush it early on without using hallucinations to force scans.
So the next "Hard" counter that will be suggested will be shotguns as, they can kill quicker due to getting the first hit so arm the soldier better.
The cost on that is
Armoury cost = 10
Research cost = 20
Pres cost = 20
again for 15 Tres you've given your team something the enemy can only just fight spending 30 Tres and 20 Pres
<!--quoteo(post=2047721:date=Dec 18 2012, 09:22 PM:name=SpaceJew)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SpaceJew @ Dec 18 2012, 09:22 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2047721"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The same people are in every 'nerf camo' thread, so I don't' know how legitimate you are. I remember there being a ton of 'nerf GL' threads not that long ago. GL was not nerfed in response to that.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well considering the fact you can counter grenades by forcing the Marine to blow themself up, or having whips throw them back or using clog walls to get the Marine to waste them then its not like the counters aren't there. But look at that. 1 fairly effective counter and two other options to counter it. How strange there. Its almost like there's a choice there.
<!--quoteo(post=2047721:date=Dec 18 2012, 09:22 PM:name=SpaceJew)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SpaceJew @ Dec 18 2012, 09:22 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2047721"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You really aren't paying attention, are you? I don't <i>care</i> if they remove Camo.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
considering how much you're here defending it I question the legitimacy of that comment but still.
<!--quoteo(post=2047721:date=Dec 18 2012, 09:22 PM:name=SpaceJew)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SpaceJew @ Dec 18 2012, 09:22 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2047721"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm just pointing out what big cry babies n00bs are in NS2.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You know, it wasn't until you said that, that I decided to put out an alternative hypothesis.
The hypothesis is this.
You are an elitist who merely wants to "Pwn some Noobs Y'all" you know intrinsically Camo has an problem however as it will take away an easy way to "Pwn some noobs" you don't want to see this go. Quite why when there's no levelling and as yet that I know of no huge universal player stat tracking I don't know why. You're constant statement about not caring is merely an attempt to mask an actual desire to see this kept as is due to it benefiting you. I won't go so far as to say you're part of a bigger problem of players seeing new people as something to be looked down upon and stamped out due to them coming into "your thing" nor will I suggest this desire to "Pwn" is born very much in the 18 hour a day Wow player style of making up for something in real life. As both of those would be absurd to suggest. However it s becoming clear you're displaying very characteristic signs shown by a group often referred to in free to play games as Wallet warriors.
<!--quoteo(post=2047721:date=Dec 18 2012, 09:22 PM:name=SpaceJew)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SpaceJew @ Dec 18 2012, 09:22 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2047721"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think the Marines Command needs a serious look to see how it can have the skill floor lowered to be effective. Maybe making scans free and on a timer is a solution, but it's a solution to a problem that only exists at the lowest possible skill level of play. To be honest, any 'nerfs' or 'balance' changes are probably not going to make Marines Command something your average player can just 'pick up' and do well with. The fact people want nerfs to aliens before they've even put in a dozen hours into Marines Command makes me want to laugh and cry at the same time.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So the fact a problem is that obvious it doesn't require dozens of command hours because anyone can see the issue isn't equally laughable ? Or the Fact people are defending something claiming balance etc when in the original game it had a personal direct counter when the original game was considered the more balanced one doesn't bring tears of laughter out ?
<!--quoteo(post=2047721:date=Dec 18 2012, 09:22 PM:name=SpaceJew)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SpaceJew @ Dec 18 2012, 09:22 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2047721"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You <i>can</i> do anything, but the fact of the matter is one Onos versus one Single-Gun Exo is handing a massive advantage to the Onos. You know, it <i>is</i> possible to be a better player than some guy on the Aliens team? I've killed an Onos single-handedly as a regular Marine while circle strafring. The poor jerk couldn't <i>hit</i> me, and he died because of it. Does that mean one Marine is a counter to Onos? Sadly, no it does not.
TL;DR
L2P<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And there we have it, the cry of the elitist smeghead "L2P."
The fact on many servers you'll see exos not being used defensively more than offensively at Onos level of play suggests its entirely possible. But a fairly top end research item vs the top end alien does kind of match up especially with the Marine side having the weapons 3 on its side and Mac support to tip the balance a bit.
95% used by skulks crawling around the map then jumping/running 50m from a rifle marine
4% used by stomp onos
1% used with run exploit
Fun for the whole family
95% used by skulks crawling around the map then jumping/running 50m from a rifle marine
5% used by stomp onos
Fun for the whole family<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I believe 1% by people playing Lerk like me sitting just out of obs range constantly harassing Marines
It can appear OP to the new player or unskilled commander but its such a detriment to aliens if they are locked into two hives. A crag-shift setup with two hives is going to have a chance of pushing out a marine base. A shade-shift or shade-crag setup is weak and countered once marines turtle and tech.
Wait for the metagame to catch up a bit and I don't think there'll be much more talk about OP Camo.
It can appear OP to the new player or unskilled commander but its such a detriment to aliens if they are locked into two hives. A crag-shift setup with two hives is going to have a chance of pushing out a marine base. A shade-shift or shade-crag setup is weak and countered once marines turtle and tech.
Wait for the metagame to catch up a bit and I don't think there'll be much more talk about OP Camo.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
unfortunately the Meta game can then evolve again to make camo relevant due to how little of the shade hive abilities are being used
He's dropping knowledge bombs left and right, don'tcha know?
Grand total of four shade abilities.
Chamber Upgrades (Camo, Silence), Shade Structure, Ink, and Hallucinations.
I'd say people are using 3/4 of the shade 'tree', so please tell me how it's being 'under utilized' again?
Oh, I see now. It's the OP Hallucinations, right? Or those omnipresent fully mature shades with ink already deployed?
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You are an elitist who merely wants to "Pwn some Noobs Y'all" you know intrinsically Camo has an problem however as it will take away an easy way to "Pwn some noobs" you don't want to see this go. Quite why when there's no levelling and as yet that I know of no huge universal player stat tracking I don't know why. You're constant statement about not caring is merely an attempt to mask an actual desire to see this kept as is due to it benefiting you. I won't go so far as to say you're part of a bigger problem of players seeing new people as something to be looked down upon and stamped out due to them coming into "your thing" nor will I suggest this desire to "Pwn" is born very much in the 18 hour a day Wow player style of making up for something in real life. As both of those would be absurd to suggest. However it s becoming clear you're displaying very characteristic signs shown by a group often referred to in free to play games as Wallet warriors.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, you <i>really</i> don't know me. I'm calling you a n00b because I know, <i>for a fact</i>, that Camo first is the weakest strategy you can field at the moment <i>unless</i> the other team sucks. If the Marines team sucks, they lose no matter what. Aliens have to drop the ball <i>so badly</i> for a crappy Marines team to win that you will virtually never see it happen. I don't like spawn camping crappy other teams, and believe me or not I don't go Camo first <i>ever</i> because I know it opens you up to a long, painful loss to a decent other team. By the time you know they're good enough, they're taking down your second hive that isn't finished building yet and you have no harvesters. That assumes they don't just put you out of your misery at the start with an armory and an Obs outside your hive while they pick off eggs.
I'm sorry you haven't played against or with a damn good Marines commander, as you wouldn't be here moaning for nerfs if you had.
I'm sorry you haven't played against or with a damn good Marines commander, as you wouldn't be here moaning for nerfs if you had.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
^this
Just wanted to post this here, seems relevant to the current discussion. ^_^
This is from 224's patch notes, implemented today.
He's dropping knowledge bombs left and right, don'tcha know?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Google Reductio ad absurdum I told you exactly what I was doing there as you were doing the exact same with your arguement about how stealth turns aliens into baby kittens who can't do anything. So well done for pointing out exactly what was meant by Reductio ad absurdum without realising it. The fact that it is in the realms of possibility (not probability) highlights the issue as somehow Howard here thinks Marines can use their mystical psychic powers to know an invisible enemy is creeping to point blank on them. Or that Marines do nothing but fire constantly in front of them incase there's a cloaked alien their
<!--quoteo(post=2047802:date=Dec 19 2012, 01:30 AM:name=SpaceJew)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SpaceJew @ Dec 19 2012, 01:30 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2047802"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Grand total of four shade abilities.
Chamber Upgrades (Camo, Silence), Shade Structure, Ink, and Hallucinations.
I'd say people are using 3/4 of the shade 'tree', so please tell me how it's being 'under utilized' again?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ink is rare to see deployed and if at all and hallucinations, forget about it. I think in probably the 50 hours I've played so far I've seen ink twice.
<!--quoteo(post=2047802:date=Dec 19 2012, 01:30 AM:name=SpaceJew)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SpaceJew @ Dec 19 2012, 01:30 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2047802"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Oh, I see now. It's the OP Hallucinations, right? Or those omnipresent fully mature shades with ink already deployed?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Now it looks like you have a comprehension issue here.
Have I called for Neutron Fluxx cannons ? No
Have I called Hallucinations OP ? NO
Have I even called Camo OP ? NO
So please stop telling everyone my argument is that the Aliens should be replaced by Barney the dinosaur because the Marines are so strong they can punch a whole in the fabric of space time and kill Hitler using his body to poison the Aliens.
<!--quoteo(post=2047802:date=Dec 19 2012, 01:30 AM:name=SpaceJew)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SpaceJew @ Dec 19 2012, 01:30 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2047802"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yeah, you <i>really</i> don't know me. I'm calling you a n00b because I know, <i>for a fact</i>,<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Oh you know for a fact I'm a noob despite as you've pointed out we've not run into one another ?
Strange that almost like I don't need to argue as you've done the counter argument yourself there
<!--quoteo(post=2047802:date=Dec 19 2012, 01:30 AM:name=SpaceJew)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SpaceJew @ Dec 19 2012, 01:30 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2047802"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->that Camo first is the weakest strategy you can field at the moment <i>unless</i> the other team sucks. If the Marines team sucks, they lose no matter what. Aliens have to drop the ball <i>so badly</i> for a crappy Marines team to win that you will virtually never see it happen. I don't like spawn camping crappy other teams, and believe me or not I don't go Camo first <i>ever</i> because I know it opens you up to a long, painful loss to a decent other team. By the time you know they're good enough, they're taking down your second hive that isn't finished building yet and you have no harvesters. That assumes they don't just put you out of your misery at the start with an armory and an Obs outside your hive while they pick off eggs.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Know what you're pointing out again is that people don't use all the shade hive gives you.
Crag + shift is a standard faster tougher style while Shade offers an alternative. In Deus ex or Elder scrolls terms. Crag + shift is upgrading attack + health while shade is upgrading sneaking.
With a good enough team and commander any is viable not simply your one.
This game isn't starcraft 1, it offers choices and there's not a "do this to win" with the most efficient execution being the winner.
Also you're now all over the shop with this counter.
You're now saying the Marines have to rush the hive together while splitting up and taking harvesters round the map ?
<!--quoteo(post=2047802:date=Dec 19 2012, 01:30 AM:name=SpaceJew)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SpaceJew @ Dec 19 2012, 01:30 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2047802"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm sorry you haven't played against or with a damn good Marines commander, as you wouldn't be here moaning for nerfs if you had.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well considering I've played with gonarch well done for insulting him dude and anyone who has played in the same match as me.
So other than the anecdotal evidence do you have anything to counter the numbers I pointed out ? as now I've presented the case on anecdotal and numerical evidence yet your only argument is you've seen shade first countered when you haven't said how good or bad the enemy commander was at using it only that a shade first team can lose.
All you've put forward is that shade first isn't OP you haven't pointed out a way its balanced beyond saying "Oh its perfectly balanced to have to regularly spend 3 Tres against something that runs for free on the other team"
That's not anything near any reality I can possibly imagine.
If you don't know your enemies start Hive location after max. 1 min into game without any scan whatsoever you are probably too bad to win in any scenario anyways.
And to rush a hive you don't need 10000 scans. You just move the room before the hive with 3 or 4 ppl, max 1 scan needed. Then build pg in that room, max 1 scan needed. Whole team phases in, run into hive and shoots it. You can scan here but you dont have to, ppl know where the hive hangs anyways and shooting skulks is not necessarily part of the plan. Hive is down after 2-3 lmg mags per person and there comes the gg.
If youre from europe just come to play on Yoclan server and have a look how shade is dealt with. Yesterday we had a beginner comm(good player but new to comming), the kind of beginner comm who is bad at multitasking and lets you wait for a rt 1 or 2 minutes at times but we still won against a good alien team going shade first.
Why? because shade first is the worst worst worst upgrade there is.
It's like you play counter strike for the first time and get 1 shot by awp several times in close range. Then you go to CS forums and complain about awp being not balanced as it's a sniper rifle and therefor should suck at close range.
What you forget about the whole ting: AWP actually IS bad at close range. But if you are not able to kill the guy holding the AWP at point blank with your M4 that's no balance issue. YOU are the problem.
It's the same as if in SC2 someone always 6pools you because you refuse to wall in. You go to the forums and cry how badly balanced 6 pool is because is forces you to build the second depot when you really don't need the supply.
It's like you play SC2 and someone always kill you with brute force roach. You dont like to build tanks and marauders and complain about marines being not efficient against roaches. You want a upgrade for them to get rocket launchers.
It's like playing Quake 3 and complaining about the rocket launcher, because good people keep trolling you by shooting you into the void and you have a -500 score. You say there really should be a proper counter against it besides dodging the rockets.
It's like you play Battlefield 3 and someone pwns you really hard with a jet. You go to the forums to complain that there really should be a good counter against jets besides jets, because jets need too much skill.
It's like you play Battlefield 3 and someone pwns you really hard with a tank. You go to the forums to complain that there really should be a good counter against tanks besides rpg soldiers, jets, helis and tanks, because you really want to play assault because you like the M16A3 the most.
When did we play together?
The simplest and best argument in this entire thread.
Everything 1m (or some other distance) around the Marine and Marine buildings should be uncloaked, rather than only the things the marine touches. It'll mean a pack of skulk can't just stealth right up to some marines before they bite. Should help even things out more than messing around with the actual skills themselves.
If you don't know your enemies start Hive location after max. 1 min into game without any scan whatsoever you are probably too bad to win in any scenario anyways.
And to rush a hive you don't need 10000 scans. You just move the room before the hive with 3 or 4 ppl, max 1 scan needed. Then build pg in that room, max 1 scan needed. Whole team phases in, run into hive and shoots it. You can scan here but you dont have to, ppl know where the hive hangs anyways and shooting skulks is not necessarily part of the plan. Hive is down after 2-3 lmg mags per person and there comes the gg.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Even so firstly you either have to secure the room or do a higher risk rush as focusing in the hive won't stop Skulks already on the map and anyone defending the hive from coming into play. Also if they shaded their eggs you might find you get picked off there or delayed. Its far from a fool proof counter
<!--quoteo(post=2047991:date=Dec 19 2012, 11:51 AM:name=gnoarch)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (gnoarch @ Dec 19 2012, 11:51 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2047991"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If youre from europe just come to play on Yoclan server and have a look how shade is dealt with. Yesterday we had a beginner comm(good player but new to comming), the kind of beginner comm who is bad at multitasking and lets you wait for a rt 1 or 2 minutes at times but we still won against a good alien team going shade first.
Why? because shade first is the worst worst worst upgrade there is.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually I have played on the Yoclan server (I avoided it for a while because I honestly thought it was some Yogscast thing.)
I have been around and not just sitting on rookie servers the whole time.
shade is viable in the right hands and at present its unbalanced, not op but unbalanced
<!--quoteo(post=2047991:date=Dec 19 2012, 11:51 AM:name=gnoarch)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (gnoarch @ Dec 19 2012, 11:51 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2047991"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It's like you play counter strike for the first time and get 1 shot by awp several times in close range. Then you go to CS forums and complain about awp being not balanced as it's a sniper rifle and therefor should suck at close range.
What you forget about the whole ting: AWP actually IS bad at close range. But if you are not able to kill the guy holding the AWP at point blank with your M4 that's no balance issue. YOU are the problem.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Unfortunately AWP doesn't make the user invisible to unless the enemy keeps paying for Anti AWP. Essentially if the AWP let you get 1 free shot in at maximum damage without the enemy knowing you're there then I have no doubt people would complain about it, however it doesn't.
<!--quoteo(post=2047991:date=Dec 19 2012, 11:51 AM:name=gnoarch)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (gnoarch @ Dec 19 2012, 11:51 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2047991"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It's the same as if in SC2 someone always 6pools you because you refuse to wall in. You go to the forums and cry how badly balanced 6 pool is because is forces you to build the second depot when you really don't need the supply.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
However thats an example of coutner play working while countering cloak its a constant resource drain its not building a wall once. A counter in that style to cloak would be what's being said here, a pricey bit of tech research but that doesn't have continual Tres cost only Pres cost after that.
It gives you the choice of "oh do I get Welders and run obs or do I research this and have some of my squad carrying this instead of welders etc.
<!--quoteo(post=2047991:date=Dec 19 2012, 11:51 AM:name=gnoarch)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (gnoarch @ Dec 19 2012, 11:51 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2047991"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It's like you play SC2 and someone always kill you with brute force roach. You dont like to build tanks and marauders and complain about marines being not efficient against roaches. You want a upgrade for them to get rocket launchers.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Unfortunately Exos don't counter cloak this example is more like people not wanting to Exo up to fight Onos because they could lose that 50 Pres (or 75 if they go dual)
<!--quoteo(post=2047991:date=Dec 19 2012, 11:51 AM:name=gnoarch)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (gnoarch @ Dec 19 2012, 11:51 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2047991"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It's like playing Quake 3 and complaining about the rocket launcher, because good people keep trolling you by shooting you into the void and you have a -500 score. You say there really should be a proper counter against it besides dodging the rockets.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
However in most FPS games power weapons do have a counter in other power weapons. Also Quake 3 is more arcade arena based than tactical combat based.
<!--quoteo(post=2047991:date=Dec 19 2012, 11:51 AM:name=gnoarch)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (gnoarch @ Dec 19 2012, 11:51 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2047991"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It's like you play Battlefield 3 and someone pwns you really hard with a jet. You go to the forums to complain that there really should be a good counter against jets besides jets, because jets need too much skill.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually there is a counter to Jets, multiple infact.
1) Lock on missile
2) AA guns
3) Jets
4) Guided missiles (you need someone to work the laser aimer but it can be done and is stupidly effective.)
5) Tanks, its possible for a highly skilled player to hit a jet with a Tank shell
<!--quoteo(post=2047991:date=Dec 19 2012, 11:51 AM:name=gnoarch)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (gnoarch @ Dec 19 2012, 11:51 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2047991"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It's like you play Battlefield 3 and someone pwns you really hard with a tank. You go to the forums to complain that there really should be a good counter against tanks besides rpg soldiers, jets, helis and tanks, because you really want to play assault because you like the M16A3 the most.
When did we play together?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Also counters to Tanks.
C4 traps
Mines
Repair bots
Blowtorches
all can be used to coutner Tanks
infact in BF3 the Tanks are the weakest and easiest to kill incarnation in a long while.
It was probabaly 2-3 night ago now I recognise your name though. I was most likely the guy doing really stupid suicidal runs on your base most of the time as that's kind of my specialist area
I think the real difficult is that it's a skill balance thing. If you scan too much you're broke, if you don't scan enough your marines all die. For some players it can be really hard to understand that one extreme or the other will not work. They're not used to games punishing them for exhibiting style, whether it be conservative style or excessive style. But countering cloakers is an optimums thing. You need to get maximum mileage out of minimum scan. It's VERY doable, but the intellectual part is the catching point.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This pretty much sums it up. The marine commander has to stay on top of scans and be proactive in doing them until he has the resource base to invest in multiple observatories. If he does it right, he completely negates the aliens first tech choice giving his team a huge advantage.
So on the one hand we have a player saying that there needs to be a marine counter over and above the present counters in place because scans and obs are resource intensive and on the other hand we have players saying that anything short of the present camo design is 100% useless vs. a skilled player (and eventually, most players in the game will be skilled and thus nerfing camo or adding new counters will eventually doom it)
I'm just going to go out on a limb and say you're both right.
Camo does require some effort to counter in a cost effective fashion. The easiest counter is at present is to simply rush the alien hive and the second runner up is an obs/PG combo next to the hive cutting off 50% of the map and setting the stage for raide/arcs. If you don't do one of these things, you're going to have a situation where scans and RT harrass bleed the marines out over time, but this should still end up with the marines locking down the alien 3rd hive location because it only takes an obs and some good aim to pretty much hold out against anything short of Onos. This gives the aliens about 10 minutes from the time they go early shade to secure 3+ RTs and a second hive while the team banks up for an Onos.... and then that Onos has to secure the third or deny the marine second or its GG.
This is why the simplest counter is to just rush/egg-lock and win because scanning the solitary hive and gunning down naked skulks is VERY cost effective. Game size has a lot to do with how effective this is, but in general, if the teams are even, the marines will have killed enough skulks on the push to thin the alien numbers through egg-lock and the slippery slope kicks in. For aliens, the best counter is to just cloak up and rush the marine base. Hence, the shade first build is (or should result in) base rushes.
----
I think that adding in another counter will only shorten the time it takes for the aliens to lose the advantage that camo brings. In some cases, it will completely negate it if its in the hands of a smart player.
However, discussion of hypothetical counters don't have to be zero-sum games. If adding another marine (infantry based) counter would cripple camo, how about just designing it in a way that allows for smart alien play to mitigate it.
Just as an example... giving marines a 5 P-res "motion scanner" along the lines of Aliens colonial marines wouldn't be all that bad... because using the scanner would take the place of your weapon... so you could pull out the scanner to sweep an area but not be able to shoot anything because scanners are not guns ;) You could also just make them not work vs. any target that isn't actually moving so skulks could just "go dark" until the scanner is put away or passes by. Finally, you could add in environmental effects to confuse the scanner in certain areas like lava falls and smelting, or system waypointing and topo for another... any room could just have a negative effect on scanners which could create a safe zone for skulk movement and shades could naturally emanate this effect.
The point is that there is no need to stake out positions on the subject that are absolute provided we agree that everything is open to tweaking.
Ultimately, the real question is whether or not anything actually needs to change. IMO, the present system makes camo too strong for its cost which is why it ends in base-rushing, but I don't see adding in a mid-game counter being the solution because the game will almost always end in a rush or crippling early blow to one side or the other given the actual effects that shade first has on the game.
Veil costs
15 to get Camo up
Obs takes
15 to set up
3 after that every time to nulify stealth.
Essentially you're setting up a way to force Marines to have to spend far more resources to counter when their scan is temporary while Camo is permanent.
Additionally and here's the kicker.
Aliens have an anti scan capable structure in the form of a shade which costs the same as an obs meaning they still get the advantage of Camo and can counter Marines for a cost of only 15 more resources per area and 3 for ink each time.
The possible solutions I see are.
1) The one I suggested with a Marine item to counter it but that only works on stealth and hinder them otherwise. Essentially creating a marine counter thats mostly useless. It could even be done as a 15 recourse research permanent upgrade as then each side has a counter and a return counter in the form of EMF and camo and then Shade and Obs
2) Cut the observatory cost to 5 resources and a scan to 2 or even 1 so the resource cost vs counter is the same<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
agree with you dude.and please guys stop acting like kids.If you love this game you should enjoy both sides.I always go for aliens (80 % win ratio) and sorry : "they are way too op " . camo is fine as abbility but where is the counter?? you gonna tell me "decent commander or team or such a stupid talk".Pub games aren´t high level skill cap. 15 res for permanent vs commander-scan and obs (15 res + 3 res every 5 sec) isn´t fair.the best solution in my opinion is adding a simple purchasable Marine equipment from the Armory ("Scanner"cost 5 res) it can be used only if its equipped (holding it in Hand like a Welder) .
Conclusion : alien-player if you wanna stay Hidden you have to move quietly and slowly losing the advantage of high mobility/ Marine-player if you wanna secure an area you have to take the risk of pulling your gadget (Scanner) out and being vulnerable. that's it ..Critics with valid arguments are welcome and sorry for my poor English.
Conclusion : alien-player if you wanna stay Hidden you have to move quietly and slowly losing the advantage of high mobility/ Marine-player if you wanna secure an area you have to take the risk of pulling your gadget (Scanner) out and being vulnerable. that's it ..Critics with valid arguments are welcome and sorry for my poor English.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well NS1 had the perfect counter to camo. Motion tracking, which is what this thread was meant to be about. Motion tracking showed the marines where nearby aliens that weren't walking are. It didn't decloak the alien either if the marine was tracking them. It ensured if you wanted to be completely unknown to the marines you had to be slow and steady. But if you ran to the room and cloaked outside of it the marines would see the blip of you when you were running and know you're there. This allows them to be more prepared for a fight and offers a chance to scan if need be. Of course aliens can trick marines into wasting scans, as well as get marines to camp one doorway while your team goes through another, with this so it's not all one-sided.
Motion tracking was a one-time upgrade you could buy that worked around all marines.
Motion tracking was a one-time upgrade you could buy that worked around all marines.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes actually I wanted to write on NS1 Motion tracking today.
As far as I remember, in NS1 cloaking was fairly similar to the incarnation we hve now. You were invisible as long as you were sneaking. There was obs and scan to uncloak you.
So just for the sake of getting things straight: Cloak was kind of the same in NS1 and was not regarded as imbalanced at all.
Also the only reason why SC first was viable in the later stages of NS1 was afair Focus. For anyone who does not know: Focus was an upgrade like camo which enabled you to basically one-shot armor 0 marines. One-shot. Imagine this thread if you could One-shot marines with shade first Hive O_o
Ok now to motion tracking. I am not opposed to MT, i think it is a cool upgrade and fits quite well into the whole theme of NS.
BUT: Motion tracking as we know from NS1 would not really help with the issues people complain about in this thread. Why?
1) The simplest reason is that MT was quite expensive and took long to research. At least I remember motion tracking as a mid to lategame upgrade and was more of a "cherry on the cake" thing for marines because now you would not have to be that much at alert at any time.
2) It simply does not adress the problem with cloaking people complain about in this thread. It does not. Even with MT skulks on pubs would sneak up to marines and kill them. Even if a noob marine knows that a skulk has entered a room before he would most likely not find him(btw. you can hear if a skulk runs so u basically can know that there was a skulk running into a room)
3) To uncloak aliens around a shade you still would need those EXPENSIVE EXPENSIVE scans that bankrupt you no matter what, why and when.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Just as an example... giving marines a 5 P-res "motion scanner" along the lines of Aliens colonial marines wouldn't be all that bad... because using the scanner would take the place of your weapon... so you could pull out the scanner to sweep an area but not be able to shoot anything because scanners are not guns ;) You could also just make them not work vs. any target that isn't actually moving so skulks could just "go dark" until the scanner is put away or passes by. Finally, you could add in environmental effects to confuse the scanner in certain areas like lava falls and smelting, or system waypointing and topo for another... any room could just have a negative effect on scanners which could create a safe zone for skulk movement and shades could naturally emanate this effect.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This sounds cool and stuff but in the end Marines would get pwnd even harder becauase
1) If have to spend pres on a MT device you cant affor shotguns and all the awesome stuff that enables marines to win
2) If you are a noob Marine(non noobs dont need this device in the first place) you will get pwned even harder by any camo skulk with ANY brains. They would just stand still when they see you take out the MT device. Then once the room is "clear" and you take out you lmg again they would sneak 3 circles around you because they can and then kill you.
In my opinion this discussion has reached the point where there is no point in going on anymore.
Everone who still thinks camo is that much imbalanced just needs another 40 or 50 hours with the game.
Or just complain in the forums for some more time and then either get back to playing NS2 or look for a less complicated game.
So on the one hand we have a player saying that there needs to be a marine counter over and above the present counters in place because scans and obs are resource intensive and on the other hand we have players saying that anything short of the present camo design is 100% useless vs. a skilled player (and eventually, most players in the game will be skilled and thus nerfing camo or adding new counters will eventually doom it)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually due to how little of the shade hive stuff is used I don't think it will be doomed its just we're yet to see it used to lure people into horrifying traps
<!--quoteo(post=2048253:date=Dec 19 2012, 11:24 PM:name=Troubleshooter)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Troubleshooter @ Dec 19 2012, 11:24 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2048253"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm just going to go out on a limb and say you're both right.
Camo does require some effort to counter in a cost effective fashion. The easiest counter is at present is to simply rush the alien hive and the second runner up is an obs/PG combo next to the hive cutting off 50% of the map and setting the stage for raide/arcs. If you don't do one of these things, you're going to have a situation where scans and RT harrass bleed the marines out over time, but this should still end up with the marines locking down the alien 3rd hive location because it only takes an obs and some good aim to pretty much hold out against anything short of Onos. This gives the aliens about 10 minutes from the time they go early shade to secure 3+ RTs and a second hive while the team banks up for an Onos.... and then that Onos has to secure the third or deny the marine second or its GG.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually on 2 Hives the aliens can still turn it round with Camo as long as its taken time for Marines to secure point 3 and that peopl have saved for their Onos. As very few Marine commanders spread the RT portals they might have two of three bases with them but all you need in the Onos on one and the rest of the team on the other and to force their commander to beacon them
<!--quoteo(post=2048253:date=Dec 19 2012, 11:24 PM:name=Troubleshooter)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Troubleshooter @ Dec 19 2012, 11:24 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2048253"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This is why the simplest counter is to just rush/egg-lock and win because scanning the solitary hive and gunning down naked skulks is VERY cost effective. Game size has a lot to do with how effective this is, but in general, if the teams are even, the marines will have killed enough skulks on the push to thin the alien numbers through egg-lock and the slippery slope kicks in. For aliens, the best counter is to just cloak up and rush the marine base. Hence, the shade first build is (or should result in) base rushes.
----
I think that adding in another counter will only shorten the time it takes for the aliens to lose the advantage that camo brings. In some cases, it will completely negate it if its in the hands of a smart player.
However, discussion of hypothetical counters don't have to be zero-sum games. If adding another marine (infantry based) counter would cripple camo, how about just designing it in a way that allows for smart alien play to mitigate it.
Just as an example... giving marines a 5 P-res "motion scanner" along the lines of Aliens colonial marines wouldn't be all that bad... because using the scanner would take the place of your weapon... so you could pull out the scanner to sweep an area but not be able to shoot anything because scanners are not guns ;) You could also just make them not work vs. any target that isn't actually moving so skulks could just "go dark" until the scanner is put away or passes by. Finally, you could add in environmental effects to confuse the scanner in certain areas like lava falls and smelting, or system waypointing and topo for another... any room could just have a negative effect on scanners which could create a safe zone for skulk movement and shades could naturally emanate this effect.
The point is that there is no need to stake out positions on the subject that are absolute provided we agree that everything is open to tweaking.
Ultimately, the real question is whether or not anything actually needs to change. IMO, the present system makes camo too strong for its cost which is why it ends in base-rushing, but I don't see adding in a mid-game counter being the solution because the game will almost always end in a rush or crippling early blow to one side or the other given the actual effects that shade first has on the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Or as I've said the EMF visor (as to avoid any obvious Alien Colonial marines rights issues) making non cloaked targets totally invisible and not picking up shade cloaked targets only the shade itself
<a href="http://youtu.be/EitZRLt2G3w" target="_blank">Adding this link in to Extra Credits explaining balancing as it might help some people </a>
still doesnt make camp "broken"
thats like saying GL is "broken"
gl takes almost 0 skill to actually "use" but with a good player it can be great. i swear, people are crying like camo is the gg win button and its not
<img src="http://img5.uploadhouse.com/fileuploads/17060/1706006583e7e5c9f6b7d46795c358d30306c0f0.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
Please, quit using it when it has 10 different meanings.
Please, quit using it when it has 10 different meanings.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Context, context, context.
That gun is op. -> Over Powered
The op has a point. -> Original Poster
<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=125624" target="_blank">You mean this episode?</a>
Enjoy!