<!--quoteo(post=2018457:date=Nov 10 2012, 05:58 PM:name=Imbalanxd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Imbalanxd @ Nov 10 2012, 05:58 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2018457"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The only problem facing the fade at the moment is the shotgun, which none of you suggestions will address. It doesn't matter how good or evasive you are with blink and shadowstep, you have stop to hit a marine some time. And when you do, all it takes is two shotgun shots on you (which can be literally instant if there are two shotgun marines) and you are dead, with 50 res wasted.
Bottom line, shotguns are highly effective against 4 out of 5 alien life forms, and are able to kill 4 out of 5 alien life forms in a little over 2 shots, taking less than a second. Shotguns need to be nerfed.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
How about leave them than and not attack ??
A nerfed Shotgun would break the game imo
Its kinda pervert to buff up a Fade which got 3!!!! free upgrades at start. Marine have to get 20res for a SG, 10 for a JP and theyre life could be over instantly if they get hit. Than u pay 30res once again.
<b>@ SaniK:</b> Two grenades take 100 armor and 60 health from the Fade, leaving it at 190 health. I like to think the grenade launcher as a support weapon, to clear skulks from Exos and siege the aliens' base.
hehe its always hard to find the perfect middleway in realy every game. As Alien i say damn OP Marines, as Marine,damn OP Aliens lol XD
But i have to say its pretty balanced how the game is actualy. So at least this is my feeling. As Fade i have a pretty good kill ratio, i just die when i realy overdo it. As Marine i can trust in my Weapons and sometimes in my mates.
@ Ghostshell: What kind of argument is that? "Marine(s) with shotgun attacking one of our RT. Nawwh, I'm a Fade."
Maybe I've made ​​myself a little bad. What I meant was, because something costs 50Res, it should still be played with common human understanding rather than blindly lash out at everything.
follow the Marines and wait for a favorable moment to attack. Thats how i do it for example. I never would attack a couple marines armed with SG. I wait will they weld or splitt up. But saying nerf the SG just because u want own everything sounds wrong in my ears.
You're right, however in practicality your lucky to get even one grenade to explode near a fade. Gnade L's are good for structures yes unless they have walls of whips then you end up blowing yourself up.
I think it's less about the skillfully aimed grenades (there are none of those in pubs), and more about the random rage inducing spam of them that can/will easily instagib a fade with the help of a few LMG hits or a partial/full shotty hit.
But while the fade's survivability is not all that impressive, I think it's also a general problem with the GL. You'll one-shot cara skulks, 2 shot cara lerks, and 3 shot cara fades at weapons 3 (this is to kill them, singlehandedly with only grenades. Any other source of damage and you can see just how few you need to be hit by to die). I made <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=122226&view=findpost&p=1997363" target="_blank">a post</a> about it a while ago.
There was an excellent post by ADHD a while back about changing the shotgun back to the way it was in NS1, with a wider more consistent spread and faster fire rate.
No matter how much movement you have a very good Marine will rarely miss you. The tight spread on the current shotgun basically ensures your death.
<!--quoteo(post=2034361:date=Nov 25 2012, 10:34 AM:name=SixtyWattMan)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SixtyWattMan @ Nov 25 2012, 10:34 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2034361"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->There was an excellent post by ADHD a while back about changing the shotgun back to the way it was in NS1, with a wider more consistent spread and faster fire rate.
No matter how much movement you have a very good Marine will rarely miss you. The tight spread on the current shotgun basically ensures your death.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Lol consistant spread, remember ns1's shotgun? It was infinitely consistent in that the shots went the same place every time! The randomness was only visual! Used to get custom crosshairs that show where the bullets actually went: <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/uploads/post-1-1086300728.jpg" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/upload...-1086300728.jpg</a>
But yeah making shotties less like sniperriffles is probably a good idea.
but then to balance it out u may have to lower the range of the shotgun. But well SG never ment to hit removed far targets.....it ever was, is and will be a close combat weapon.
<b>@ Ghostshell:</b> Regarding shotgun, I believe Schimmel described its need for balance best: <!--quoteo(post=2033164:date=Nov 23 2012, 11:20 PM:name=Sewlek)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Sewlek @ Nov 23 2012, 11:20 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2033164"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->- fixed shotgun spread (maybe more pellets and higher spread, so distance and enemy size plays a bigger role)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<b>@ SaniK:</b> Everything has its weaknesses and strengths. Bombarded whips > Grenade Launcher. Flamethrower > Bombarded whips. Grenade Launcher = Defend and siege.
<b>@ rantology:</b> Completely forgot about weapon upgrades, and it does indeed make it very difficult for a Fade to do any good when the marines are turtling.
This has to be a joke right? When you say its ineffective in team fights? Yes its ineffective solo against a group of marines but if the fade uses the skulks/lerks/Onos with them a fade can wipe out the whole marine team in a matter of seconsd.
So shotguns can kill you in 2 hits. So what! Marines need something to counter the most powerful thing in the game!
<!--quoteo(post=2048528:date=Dec 21 2012, 12:45 AM:name=kelevra386)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (kelevra386 @ Dec 21 2012, 12:45 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2048528"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This has to be a joke right? When you say its ineffective in team fights? Yes its ineffective solo against a group of marines but if the fade uses the skulks/lerks/Onos with them a fade can wipe out the whole marine team in a matter of seconsd.
So shotguns can kill you in 2 hits. So what! Marines need something to counter the most powerful thing in the game!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Thought that was the onos. Sorry but marines have enough instagib's, we need some variation to viable alien life forms. It should not be solely about all evolving to onos.
Fades feel weak for the money they cost, vortex is gimicky and as such the arsenal feels lacking. Getting taken down in 2/3 SG blasts for a 50 res investment is frustrating, you already get 1 shotted as a skulk and almost 1 shotted as lerk. It feels like if you want to survive a SG you have to go onos, as fades and lower are so vulnerable.
<!--quoteo(post=2048528:date=Dec 20 2012, 07:45 AM:name=kelevra386)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (kelevra386 @ Dec 20 2012, 07:45 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2048528"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This has to be a joke right? When you say its ineffective in team fights? Yes its ineffective solo against a group of marines but if the fade uses the skulks/lerks/Onos with them a fade can wipe out the whole marine team in a matter of seconsd.
So shotguns can kill you in 2 hits. So what! <b>Marines need something to counter the most powerful thing in the game</b>!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Um, that would be the Onos.
I die more often as a Fade than I do as an Onos.
As a marine I can sometimes hold my own against a single fade, but going up against an Onos alone.....not a chance.....<!--sizeo:1--><span style="font-size:8pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->unless I have a jp ;)<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
<!--quoteo(post=2018955:date=Nov 10 2012, 07:06 PM:name=Bad Mojo)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bad Mojo @ Nov 10 2012, 07:06 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2018955"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think umbra should become more prevalent as a lerk ability, and umbra should be the "cropdusted" ability while, as many MANY people have suggested, spores should be the ranged ability, and maybe have the AOE toned down. (and it should ignore armor)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I totally disagree. I've managed to kill off and/or harass large groups of marines using spores simply by flying quickly in confusing yet effective patterns. If you understand the map, you can easily fly over (and away from) marines, sporing them straight to hell, before looping back around and doing the same right over their heads. It's very possible to force marines to have to run through long trails of spores whether a squad is advancing or retreating, and this allows you to manipulate their movements. You already have a remarkably effective ranged attack in spikes (which, while not doing boatloads of damage in and of itself, is great at avoiding armor and pissing off individual marines from positions of relative impunity).
As a ranged option, umbra allows me to support fellow aliens from afar by shielding doorways or guarding them as they take down structures without requiring me to awkwardly flap around in the marine base. This is far more sensible than requiring me to trail my compatriots into the thick of battle.
I'd hate to see these two mechanisms reversed. I'm not saying the lerk is a perfectly balanced lifeform or that it doesn't need work - perhaps it does - but I don't think the issue is with how spores or umbra work.
Edit: And yes, more lerks should use umbra, but I see this more as a player's natural disinclination from spending time defensively supporting when they might otherwise be offensively supporting. Umbra is often the better choice, but people love to see their killcounts rise.
I play competitive and fades are completely fine. A good fade can literally pick apart a room of marines. They're fine how they are and work as intended.
<b>@ ComboBreaker:</b> I've already explained these techniques and some are also shown in the video linked in the thread post. I agree with you that I would like to see Fade still being a squishy (though glass cannon would be a wrong term to use, as Fades aren't really a DPS monster either) assassin. Just make him more agile, and that's more or less what I'm proposing. Shadow step to be easier to sidestep with, crouch mechanic to be used for increasing hang time and getting up places more easier and so forth.
<b>@ kelevra386:</b> Fades the most powerful thing in the game? I will stop here.
<b>@ StriderNS2:</b> Fades aren't underpowered, they aren't useless or anything like that; in fact, they're great at what they do. There's just a few mechanics that I would like to see changed for the better of its movement, like I've already mentioned, the other proposals aren't necessities and just nice-to-have.
Comments
Bottom line, shotguns are highly effective against 4 out of 5 alien life forms, and are able to kill 4 out of 5 alien life forms in a little over 2 shots, taking less than a second. Shotguns need to be nerfed.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
How about leave them than and not attack ??
A nerfed Shotgun would break the game imo
Its kinda pervert to buff up a Fade which got 3!!!! free upgrades at start. Marine have to get 20res for a SG, 10 for a JP and theyre life could be over instantly if they get hit. Than u pay 30res once again.
What kind of argument is that? "Marine(s) with shotgun attacking one of our RT. Nawwh, I'm a Fade."
You're not actually arguing that swipe and double-jump (or alien vision for that matter) are upgrades, are you? This is getting ridiculous, really.
Two grenades take 100 armor and 60 health from the Fade, leaving it at 190 health. I like to think the grenade launcher as a support weapon, to clear skulks from Exos and siege the aliens' base.
But i have to say its pretty balanced how the game is actualy. So at least this is my feeling. As Fade i have a pretty good kill ratio, i just die when i realy overdo it. As Marine i can trust in my Weapons and sometimes in my mates.
@ Ghostshell:
What kind of argument is that? "Marine(s) with shotgun attacking one of our RT. Nawwh, I'm a Fade."
Maybe I've made ​​myself a little bad. What I meant was, because something costs 50Res, it should still be played with common human understanding rather than blindly lash out at everything.
follow the Marines and wait for a favorable moment to attack.
Thats how i do it for example. I never would attack a couple marines armed with SG. I wait will they weld or splitt up. But saying nerf the SG just because u want own everything sounds wrong in my ears.
But while the fade's survivability is not all that impressive, I think it's also a general problem with the GL. You'll one-shot cara skulks, 2 shot cara lerks, and 3 shot cara fades at weapons 3 (this is to kill them, singlehandedly with only grenades. Any other source of damage and you can see just how few you need to be hit by to die). I made <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=122226&view=findpost&p=1997363" target="_blank">a post</a> about it a while ago.
No matter how much movement you have a very good Marine will rarely miss you. The tight spread on the current shotgun basically ensures your death.
No matter how much movement you have a very good Marine will rarely miss you. The tight spread on the current shotgun basically ensures your death.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Lol consistant spread, remember ns1's shotgun? It was infinitely consistent in that the shots went the same place every time! The randomness was only visual! Used to get custom crosshairs that show where the bullets actually went: <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/uploads/post-1-1086300728.jpg" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/upload...-1086300728.jpg</a>
But yeah making shotties less like sniperriffles is probably a good idea.
Regarding shotgun, I believe Schimmel described its need for balance best:
<!--quoteo(post=2033164:date=Nov 23 2012, 11:20 PM:name=Sewlek)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Sewlek @ Nov 23 2012, 11:20 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2033164"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->- fixed shotgun spread (maybe more pellets and higher spread, so distance and enemy size plays a bigger role)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<b>@ SaniK:</b>
Everything has its weaknesses and strengths. Bombarded whips > Grenade Launcher. Flamethrower > Bombarded whips. Grenade Launcher = Defend and siege.
<b>@ rantology:</b>
Completely forgot about weapon upgrades, and it does indeed make it very difficult for a Fade to do any good when the marines are turtling.
-Jump
-Shadow Step in the desired direction
-Double jump at the end of Shadow Step's animation
Incredible mobility for almost 0 energy.
What fade needs is ability to strafe effectively during blink to avoid shots better.I'd like fade to stay glasscannon,just make him more agile!
So shotguns can kill you in 2 hits. So what! Marines need something to counter the most powerful thing in the game!
So shotguns can kill you in 2 hits. So what! Marines need something to counter the most powerful thing in the game!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thought that was the onos. Sorry but marines have enough instagib's, we need some variation to viable alien life forms.
It should not be solely about all evolving to onos.
Fades feel weak for the money they cost, vortex is gimicky and as such the arsenal feels lacking.
Getting taken down in 2/3 SG blasts for a 50 res investment is frustrating, you already get 1 shotted as a skulk and almost 1 shotted as lerk.
It feels like if you want to survive a SG you have to go onos, as fades and lower are so vulnerable.
So shotguns can kill you in 2 hits. So what! <b>Marines need something to counter the most powerful thing in the game</b>!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Um, that would be the Onos.
I die more often as a Fade than I do as an Onos.
As a marine I can sometimes hold my own against a single fade, but going up against an Onos alone.....not a chance.....<!--sizeo:1--><span style="font-size:8pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->unless I have a jp ;)<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
I totally disagree. I've managed to kill off and/or harass large groups of marines using spores simply by flying quickly in confusing yet effective patterns. If you understand the map, you can easily fly over (and away from) marines, sporing them straight to hell, before looping back around and doing the same right over their heads. It's very possible to force marines to have to run through long trails of spores whether a squad is advancing or retreating, and this allows you to manipulate their movements. You already have a remarkably effective ranged attack in spikes (which, while not doing boatloads of damage in and of itself, is great at avoiding armor and pissing off individual marines from positions of relative impunity).
As a ranged option, umbra allows me to support fellow aliens from afar by shielding doorways or guarding them as they take down structures without requiring me to awkwardly flap around in the marine base. This is far more sensible than requiring me to trail my compatriots into the thick of battle.
I'd hate to see these two mechanisms reversed. I'm not saying the lerk is a perfectly balanced lifeform or that it doesn't need work - perhaps it does - but I don't think the issue is with how spores or umbra work.
Edit: And yes, more lerks should use umbra, but I see this more as a player's natural disinclination from spending time defensively supporting when they might otherwise be offensively supporting. Umbra is often the better choice, but people love to see their killcounts rise.
I play competitive and fades are completely fine. A good fade can literally pick apart a room of marines. They're fine how they are and work as intended.
I've already explained these techniques and some are also shown in the video linked in the thread post. I agree with you that I would like to see Fade still being a squishy (though glass cannon would be a wrong term to use, as Fades aren't really a DPS monster either) assassin.
Just make him more agile, and that's more or less what I'm proposing. Shadow step to be easier to sidestep with, crouch mechanic to be used for increasing hang time and getting up places more easier and so forth.
<b>@ kelevra386:</b>
Fades the most powerful thing in the game? I will stop here.
<b>@ StriderNS2:</b>
Fades aren't underpowered, they aren't useless or anything like that; in fact, they're great at what they do. There's just a few mechanics that I would like to see changed for the better of its movement, like I've already mentioned, the other proposals aren't necessities and just nice-to-have.
Edit:
Merry Christmas to you all! :3
Pretty please with sugar on top?