<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Bottom line, it makes the LMG better in close and mid-range combat and more comparable to NS1 (yes the LMG had spread)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The ns2 lmg also has spread, tho its 1% less than ns1... 3% instead of 4%.
Instead of this spread nonesense, we should work on getting less jerky animations and better movement for lifeforms.
<!--quoteo(post=2044926:date=Dec 13 2012, 04:32 AM:name=Koruyo)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Koruyo @ Dec 13 2012, 04:32 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2044926"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The ns2 lmg also has spread, tho its 1% less than ns1... 3% instead of 4%.
Instead of this spread nonesense, we should work on getting less jerky animations and better movement for lifeforms.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Better hit reg too. I've shot skulks who's face is at the end of my barrel and fired 30-40 rounds into their face and they don't die or just die, when it is suppose to take 10 or less.
It just seems counter productive to make the base model weapon require the most skill to use effectively. An amazing NS2 player doesn't <i>need</i> to spend P.Res at any point, while a less accurate player would need to purchase 'noob cannon' guns like the shotgun, grenade launcher, and flamethrower to be effective. All of these buyable weapons are AoE. Of course, that isn't meant to be interpreted as a great NS2 player <i>won't</i> buy a shotgun and be amazing with it, merely that if they are amazing shots it probably doesn't matter outside of shotguns for anti-fade duty. (Which, of course, is one reason why the single gun Exo see's no use in NS2. Why buy a Single-Gun Exo when you can purchase a shotgun and actually be <i>more</i> effective for less P.Res/T.Res) On top of that, a great shot wouldn't buy a GL or Flamethrower as it actually would do <i>less</i> damage than an accurate LMG burst.
This is also probably why grenade launchers and flamethrowers are often not researched at all. Great players don't need them, and if they're terrible players they'll lose the flamethrower/GL almost instantly. (There are, of course, situations where someone needs to buy a flamethrower. Your most accurate and deadly Marines should never buy them though unless the whole team has strong target tracking skills as they punish players with decent accuracy)
All this, to me, says that P.Res for the Marines is simply padding for crappy players like myself that can't hit the broad side of an Onos. Compared to the Aliens, where P.Res is vitally important, and I see a <i>slight</i> discrepancy. Whether or not it needs fixing seems debatable, although from the posts in this thread I'd say most of the active forum goers are against it.
I'd be interested in the FPS of those who say it's unnecessary though, as having a frame rate of anything below 35 or so makes it much, much harder in NS2 to be competitive. Add latency into the equation, and a lot of Marines are going to have issues hitting celerity skulks. Personally I get anywhere from 25-30 FPS, and I can definitely say it makes being a Marine tougher. It also doesn't seem to make it any harder to play Aliens, so that's the team I usually try to join.
Hit-Reg and performance optimization for NS2 might solve this issue on it's own, so maybe the 'wait and see' path is the better one to take. It's just frustrating <i>right now</i>.
Spread is a good thing, because it defines the effective range of a weapon. The lmg as someone mentioned earlier, does have a small amount of spread, which makes it most effective in mid range encounters. As combat gets closer it loses some effectiveness because its low spread makes it harder to land a hit. Spread increases effectiveness at close range and decreases it at long range, and with the lmg somewhere in the middle it has a maximum effectiveness where marines want encounters to happen from, with a pistol for last resort/long range encounters. It probably doesn't need to change. If the original poster was talking about recoil though, that is another matter, as that is spread from the aim moving upwards under continuous fire, and that is a severe detriment to aiming. It is added into other games for realism and the fact that it is balanced by both sides having to compensate. NS2 is asymmetrical, and favoring realism over balance/gameplay is never a good idea as it is making a game worse for merely aesthetics. Recoil in this game would make it nearly impossible to hit targets which move quickly in different directions while also compensating for ones own aim deterioration. Simply put the current spread on the lmg serves the role of the weapon, and recoil should not be implemented.
Range is the Marine's only advantage, having a pinpoint accuracy laser would be optimal, but there is at least a little spread on the existing setup to allow for human error. There are already plenty of weapons that have "spread" or "splash" or "aoe". If anything there needs to be a successor to the Rifle, such as I don't know...the HMG? But even the HMG had crazy amounts of spread in NS1.
Keep the Rifle as is, allow the the game to become more polished; players will have better frames, players will learn to aim better, and this will become a non-issue in the near future.
<!--quoteo(post=2045165:date=Dec 13 2012, 04:31 PM:name=Kazter)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kazter @ Dec 13 2012, 04:31 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2045165"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Range is the Marine's only advantage, having a pinpoint accuracy laser would be optimal, but there is at least a little spread on the existing setup to allow for human error.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm sure more health, more armor, and higher mobility through structures should also be on the list of advantages. Oh, and being able to receive health packs and temporary god-mode buffs from the commander as well. Sprint alone will let you reach a second hive right at the beginning of almost any map, on top of that. I wouldn't call that last option an advantage necessarily, but if you get a phase gate up quickly I'd say it's a pretty big deal if you can hold it.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->There are already plenty of weapons that have "spread" or "splash" or "aoe". If anything there needs to be a successor to the Rifle, such as I don't know...the HMG? But even the HMG had crazy amounts of spread in NS1.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'd like the HMG to come back, only nerf the damage a little and make <i>it</i> the gun that has the least amount of spread. Make the 'high skill' gun something the player has to pay for rather than the default. That's just me though, I'm sure people will have lots of good reasons against this. Plus, HMG is probably never coming back in any form.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Keep the Rifle as is, allow the the game to become more polished; players will have better frames, players will learn to aim better, and this will become a non-issue in the near future.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is quite possible, since it's hard to say if hit-reg, FPS, or latency is causing more problems than incredibly accurate starting guns.
<!--quoteo(post=2045165:date=Dec 14 2012, 06:31 AM:name=Kazter)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kazter @ Dec 14 2012, 06:31 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2045165"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Keep the Rifle as is, allow the the game to become more polished; players will have better frames, players will learn to aim better, and this will become a non-issue in the near future.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
+1. The thing I notice as skulk is the massive inconsistency between how fast I die early round. Some times it feels like insta-death from a couple of shots vs one marine, other times its like I'm in the matrix and I kill 3 marines solo and get away unscathed. I'm sure hit reg and the marines FPS are playing a big part in this and not just player skills. I suspect with hit reg and performance solved people will moan that marines are OP at the start of rounds.
<!--quoteo(post=2043735:date=Dec 11 2012, 07:06 PM:name=Visdoom)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Visdoom @ Dec 11 2012, 07:06 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2043735"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Unfortunately, the LMG's precision-railgun-straight pinpoint accuracy is its downfall in combat. The only situation in which the LMG is graceful is in very long range combat situations (in which those rarely happen). I believe the spread would help marines significantly in battle, especially with the Lerks irregularly small hit-box.
Just a suggestion that would ultimately benefit myself and others no doubt.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's the idea. It's supposed to be hard to aim. if it was easy to aim you'd have no use for the shotgun.
Decreasing accuracy would make it more consistent, yes, in the same sense that have a gun with zero accuracy would be very consistent from a statistical standpoint, in that wherever you aim, you're equally likely to hit any given target. But if you make it easy to use, it kinda invalidates the whole balance idea of the rifle, which is that it works quite well if, and only if, you can aim it accurately.
Basically it makes it 'easier' to use but also makes it less maximally useful. Of course if the majority of players are terrible shots then the team as a whole might actually do better with easy but faster maxing-out weapons, so they may have greater general utility by being 'worse' guns.
But still, not sure if you can mess with the accuracy enough to make it noticeably better, without also making it noticeably unbalanced, necessitating further changes to alien classes and other marine weapons.
Basically it makes the game less reliant on player aiming skill and more reliant on numbers. In a way I suppose that could arguably be a good thing because a high volume of slightly inaccurate fire is probably the best way to guarantee enough hits to kill, thus making the winning force in the game more teamwork oriented, in the sense that you want to keep people together more.
On the other hand there are a lot of low-skill shooters out there where you can win by luck/outnumbering the enemy, doesn't really make sense to turn NS into a shakier, not as well polished, non-brand-name version of those. While I have terrible coordination and thus can't hit the broad side of a barn with the LMG, I'd be silly to deny that it is probably a major part of what makes NS2 unique. And as NS2 doesn't have amazing graphics, framerate, latency, or popularity. Uniqueness is probably is main selling factor.
Comments
The ns2 lmg also has spread, tho its 1% less than ns1... 3% instead of 4%.
Instead of this spread nonesense, we should work on getting less jerky animations and better movement for lifeforms.
Instead of this spread nonesense, we should work on getting less jerky animations and better movement for lifeforms.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Better hit reg too. I've shot skulks who's face is at the end of my barrel and fired 30-40 rounds into their face and they don't die or just die, when it is suppose to take 10 or less.
This is also probably why grenade launchers and flamethrowers are often not researched at all. Great players don't need them, and if they're terrible players they'll lose the flamethrower/GL almost instantly. (There are, of course, situations where someone needs to buy a flamethrower. Your most accurate and deadly Marines should never buy them though unless the whole team has strong target tracking skills as they punish players with decent accuracy)
All this, to me, says that P.Res for the Marines is simply padding for crappy players like myself that can't hit the broad side of an Onos. Compared to the Aliens, where P.Res is vitally important, and I see a <i>slight</i> discrepancy. Whether or not it needs fixing seems debatable, although from the posts in this thread I'd say most of the active forum goers are against it.
I'd be interested in the FPS of those who say it's unnecessary though, as having a frame rate of anything below 35 or so makes it much, much harder in NS2 to be competitive. Add latency into the equation, and a lot of Marines are going to have issues hitting celerity skulks. Personally I get anywhere from 25-30 FPS, and I can definitely say it makes being a Marine tougher. It also doesn't seem to make it any harder to play Aliens, so that's the team I usually try to join.
Hit-Reg and performance optimization for NS2 might solve this issue on it's own, so maybe the 'wait and see' path is the better one to take. It's just frustrating <i>right now</i>.
No.
Range is the Marine's only advantage, having a pinpoint accuracy laser would be optimal, but there is at least a little spread on the existing setup to allow for human error. There are already plenty of weapons that have "spread" or "splash" or "aoe". If anything there needs to be a successor to the Rifle, such as I don't know...the HMG? But even the HMG had crazy amounts of spread in NS1.
Keep the Rifle as is, allow the the game to become more polished; players will have better frames, players will learn to aim better, and this will become a non-issue in the near future.
I'm sure more health, more armor, and higher mobility through structures should also be on the list of advantages. Oh, and being able to receive health packs and temporary god-mode buffs from the commander as well. Sprint alone will let you reach a second hive right at the beginning of almost any map, on top of that. I wouldn't call that last option an advantage necessarily, but if you get a phase gate up quickly I'd say it's a pretty big deal if you can hold it.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->There are already plenty of weapons that have "spread" or "splash" or "aoe". If anything there needs to be a successor to the Rifle, such as I don't know...the HMG? But even the HMG had crazy amounts of spread in NS1.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'd like the HMG to come back, only nerf the damage a little and make <i>it</i> the gun that has the least amount of spread. Make the 'high skill' gun something the player has to pay for rather than the default. That's just me though, I'm sure people will have lots of good reasons against this. Plus, HMG is probably never coming back in any form.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Keep the Rifle as is, allow the the game to become more polished; players will have better frames, players will learn to aim better, and this will become a non-issue in the near future.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is quite possible, since it's hard to say if hit-reg, FPS, or latency is causing more problems than incredibly accurate starting guns.
+1. The thing I notice as skulk is the massive inconsistency between how fast I die early round. Some times it feels like insta-death from a couple of shots vs one marine, other times its like I'm in the matrix and I kill 3 marines solo and get away unscathed. I'm sure hit reg and the marines FPS are playing a big part in this and not just player skills. I suspect with hit reg and performance solved people will moan that marines are OP at the start of rounds.
Just a suggestion that would ultimately benefit myself and others no doubt.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's the idea. It's supposed to be hard to aim. if it was easy to aim you'd have no use for the shotgun.
Decreasing accuracy would make it more consistent, yes, in the same sense that have a gun with zero accuracy would be very consistent from a statistical standpoint, in that wherever you aim, you're equally likely to hit any given target. But if you make it easy to use, it kinda invalidates the whole balance idea of the rifle, which is that it works quite well if, and only if, you can aim it accurately.
Basically it makes it 'easier' to use but also makes it less maximally useful. Of course if the majority of players are terrible shots then the team as a whole might actually do better with easy but faster maxing-out weapons, so they may have greater general utility by being 'worse' guns.
But still, not sure if you can mess with the accuracy enough to make it noticeably better, without also making it noticeably unbalanced, necessitating further changes to alien classes and other marine weapons.
Basically it makes the game less reliant on player aiming skill and more reliant on numbers. In a way I suppose that could arguably be a good thing because a high volume of slightly inaccurate fire is probably the best way to guarantee enough hits to kill, thus making the winning force in the game more teamwork oriented, in the sense that you want to keep people together more.
On the other hand there are a lot of low-skill shooters out there where you can win by luck/outnumbering the enemy, doesn't really make sense to turn NS into a shakier, not as well polished, non-brand-name version of those. While I have terrible coordination and thus can't hit the broad side of a barn with the LMG, I'd be silly to deny that it is probably a major part of what makes NS2 unique. And as NS2 doesn't have amazing graphics, framerate, latency, or popularity. Uniqueness is probably is main selling factor.