ARCs can be countered in many ways. You can flat out just kill all the Marines.. or you can bile bomb the ARCs directly, or you can even snipe the obeservatory with a ninja skulk to keep them from scanning.
They are just the best tool to clear alien defense.. clear the marines, bile bomb the ARCs, or even bile bomb WHILE you're killing the Marines.
<!--quoteo(post=2040264:date=Dec 5 2012, 01:40 AM:name=Karpman)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Karpman @ Dec 5 2012, 01:40 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2040264"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Since you have a robo, could you not build a few MACs to babysit the arc train, negating bile bomb? I'm sincerely asking.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No... The macs die to 3 bilebombs and bilebomb has a huge aoe splash range.
I don't think I've ever seen ARCs pose a massive threat other than when the Kharaa have screwed up, and 99% of the games I've played are as Kharaa (Because I'm a terribad Marine). Usually if there's ARCs on the field and you have a half decent Kharaa team, they're going to be noticed real fast.
Yea, sure, they do a ton of damage when they actually arrive on-scene. Too bad it takes them forever to even get to where they are going as well as every Gorge and Onos on the map is going to be rushing them faster than a fat kid to the ice cream store on the first day of Summer. I've sat in my own little Gorge base with crags, whips and hydras and was able to hold off siege fire for quite a long time on my own and that Gorge base was 1 room away from Marine starting base.
Seems like a pretty fair trade that they do a crapton of damage and can fire through walls for the amount of combined res they cost as well with the fact that they have to make the long trip (usually) and the extreme risk involved in even deploying that kind of tactic.
Well executed phasegate arc rushes can be very tough to stop, but they also require quite a bit of coordination. It's very difficult to execute in pubs.
<!--quoteo(post=2039879:date=Dec 4 2012, 11:42 AM:name=Paajtor)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Paajtor @ Dec 4 2012, 11:42 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2039879"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Not in a matter of seconds! And certainly not, if those ARC's are around a corner with Exo's in front of them, who are aiming at your Hive. And the ARC's are destroying the Crag's the Alien commander has put up to heal the Gorges while they are bilebombing the Exo's...etc etc.
Very quickly, the Gorges become overstressed, and powerless because important upgrades near the Hive also get destroyed by the ARCs.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Wait. You're saying that if Marines use... TEAMWORK, ARCs are hard to kill? GET OUTTA TOWN.
MouseThe Lighter Side of PessimismJoin Date: 2002-03-02Member: 263Members, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
A trick I've pulled on Mineshaft which is also viable on other maps is the use of an ARC rush as a distraction for a ninja shotgun rush on another hive. If you're lucky, you can take both hives down.
1. when gorge spit hit registration is fixed/improved, gorges will be more useful (less of a burden - more self sufficient) and that will help counter the ARC. 2. when shade ink is fixed/improved; scan will no longer provide an easy base nuke - you'd need marines to go in and kill the shade/s.
i can't deny that ARC's are the stand-out 'zomg too strong' thing from a lot of comp vods i've watched lately. i think if aliens have an easier time countering ARC's, then it might make actually make marines or at least ARC's too weak. point being that there's still a lot of fixing/balance tweaking to be done.
I command in pub games a lot for marines, when you rush phase gates for map control and then follow it up with a quick push (w/arcs) it is pretty good. I think the mechanics of its wall bypassed shots are the way they are so marines can reasonably defend them. If they ever had to expose themselves directly to a room full of alien structures + players just so they could open fire, they would just be immediately biled/chewed/crapped on by any competent opposing team.
Sometimes if you are commanding players and they have no clue of the value in your little metal machines, they will not protect them and they will die very easily with no effort of protection from the marine side. Teamwork is needed from both the commander and the marine players for arc pushes to work, it is not a "get out of jail free card" for base sieges, to make them work at all you need a huge investment of time and resources from both players and the commander just to purchase them, and defending them is even more frustrating for the commander watching them and the players on the ground getting yelled at by him/her trying to point it out, aliens can just as easily (if not easier in my opinion) ninja bile rush a base (for about the same about of resource investment) while the marines are pushing with arcs.
The power of arcs comes from the marines forcing the issue of offense to the alien team. Most of the aliens teams in pubs just passively expand all over the map and take map control very easily, which most players bank off of so they can just save for onos to win the game (in-pubs). When the marines roll some arcs out onto the field and start threatening resources or tech points, the aliens are forced to do something about it or they will eventually lose those resources or tech points, and I think that most aliens teams aren't used to being able to respond in quick succession to a serious threat like that. They get all disorganized and freak out and either beeline to the arcs or just run around sporadically attacking some random resource point or base.
However I do think certain arc positions on certain maps are pretty broken, (i.e. hitting locker rooms hive from the corner of bar; hitting deposit hive from central drilling left rt) I don't think you should be able to deny a third of the alien tech tree investment just because of where you spawned (or decided to expand to).
Then again spamming crags is pretty overpowered right now as well so I guess its just having both overpowered implementations in effect at the same time.
<!--quoteo(post=2039812:date=Dec 4 2012, 06:09 AM:name=Xarius)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Xarius @ Dec 4 2012, 06:09 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2039812"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Shade ink is supposed to counter Scans and thus arc sieging, but it's broken...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> the whole game is broken, they said so much but there is no content update anymore... where are the webs as charlie promised?
<!--quoteo(post=2040945:date=Dec 6 2012, 07:02 AM:name=frmehe)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (frmehe @ Dec 6 2012, 07:02 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2040945"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->the whole game is broken, they said so much but there is no content update anymore... where are the webs as charlie promised?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Oh Woe is Me!
Not a particularly helpful or constructive post, tbfh. It's simply not reasonable to expect a patch every 2 days with all the fixes/improvements/new features under the sun. These guys are working hard to improve performance, which should be the #1 priority. While Shade ink fixing is, in my opinion, an important fix, it's not as important as optimisation and dealing with some of the bigger issues, which UWE is already working on and will have out to us players as soon as possible. The last thing we need on these forums is a bunch of people moaning about how awful the game is. We've got a fair few at the minute, and it's not helpful at all.
I've seen ARCs supported by EXOs fail against 1 Hive aliens, so.... I'd suggest anyone having difficulties to maybe research Bile Bomb earlier in the game.
Bile Bomb tends to solve a lot of problems, and frees up a greater amount of combat-orientated aliens to charge marine spawn. Going by the average pub server, losing marine main is many orders of magnitude worse than losing a hive.
EDIT - Since it wasn't obvious, the point was that if you're expecting an ARC push then you should have BB pretty early after Hive 2 goes up. Assuming a reasonable worst case scenario of an ARC train on 2nd Hive, where you should be able to do enough damage with BB to make it easier to mop up and recover even IF you lose the 2nd Hive in the process.
If you're on one hive, with less than great Fades and no Onos, facing an ARC train... then you've basically lost the game, no amount of balance is going to fix that.
No one has said it so far, so here it is: The advantage to ARCs is that it allows you to take down a base, or even just its whips & crags, <b>without entering tactically inferior short hallways and doors that aliens excel in</b>. They are in many ways contraindicated to the situational usefulness of Grenade Launchers.
I have definitely won games with ARCs that I could not have won ARCs without. I've also definitively lost games because ARCs firing sequence became bugged. Since I play alien 90% of the time, my only complaint is that ARCs get a ridiculous armor bonus on movement which makes 5 skulks compromising an ARC train trivial where an exo train would be devastated.
<!--quoteo(post=2040331:date=Dec 5 2012, 07:24 AM:name=kk20)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (kk20 @ Dec 5 2012, 07:24 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2040331"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->they need the siege because aliens win by default if marines dont kill the hives.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And Aliens somehow don't need to kill command stations?
<!--quoteo(post=2040569:date=Dec 5 2012, 05:37 PM:name=hus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (hus @ Dec 5 2012, 05:37 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2040569"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Fixing shade ink would solve any gripes. At present I think its balanced because marine pub teams are composed generally of rubbish players.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> It's balanced because people are terrible.
...
What.
<!--quoteo(post=2040967:date=Dec 6 2012, 07:57 AM:name=Necrosis)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Necrosis @ Dec 6 2012, 07:57 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2040967"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I've seen ARCs supported by EXOs fail against 1 Hive aliens, so.... I'd suggest anyone having difficulties to maybe research Bile Bomb earlier in the game.
Bile Bomb tends to solve a lot of problems, and frees up a greater amount of combat-orientated aliens to charge marine spawn. Going by the average pub server, losing marine main is many orders of magnitude worse than losing a hive.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Wonderful idea, I wish I had thought of researching bile bomb with a single hive.
<!--quoteo(post=2041173:date=Dec 7 2012, 08:15 AM:name=Zora-Link)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Zora-Link @ Dec 7 2012, 08:15 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2041173"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It's balanced because people are terrible.
...
What.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes. There isn't a huge requirement for an ARC counter (shade ink) right this minute because marine teams are composed of pretty average players and the current 60/40 alien advantage is reflected in that. It's not a hard concept to grasp
<!--quoteo(post=2041251:date=Dec 6 2012, 06:48 PM:name=hus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (hus @ Dec 6 2012, 06:48 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2041251"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yes. There isn't a huge requirement for an ARC counter (shade ink) right this minute because marine teams are composed of pretty average players and the current 60/40 alien advantage is reflected in that. It's not a hard concept to grasp<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
...If you can't see how ridiculous saying that allowing a broken mechanic to exist because players are bad is, I'm not bothering with this conversation.
Comments
Overloading the map with crags and whips is not "toxic gameplay"?
That's what I call a get out of jail free card.
They are just the best tool to clear alien defense.. clear the marines, bile bomb the ARCs, or even bile bomb WHILE you're killing the Marines.
They aren't a free card. Not by a long shot.
No... The macs die to 3 bilebombs and bilebomb has a huge aoe splash range.
Yea, sure, they do a ton of damage when they actually arrive on-scene. Too bad it takes them forever to even get to where they are going as well as every Gorge and Onos on the map is going to be rushing them faster than a fat kid to the ice cream store on the first day of Summer. I've sat in my own little Gorge base with crags, whips and hydras and was able to hold off siege fire for quite a long time on my own and that Gorge base was 1 room away from Marine starting base.
Seems like a pretty fair trade that they do a crapton of damage and can fire through walls for the amount of combined res they cost as well with the fact that they have to make the long trip (usually) and the extreme risk involved in even deploying that kind of tactic.
And certainly not, if those ARC's are around a corner with Exo's in front of them, who are aiming at your Hive.
And the ARC's are destroying the Crag's the Alien commander has put up to heal the Gorges while they are bilebombing the Exo's...etc etc.
Very quickly, the Gorges become overstressed, and powerless because important upgrades near the Hive also get destroyed by the ARCs.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Wait. You're saying that if Marines use... TEAMWORK, ARCs are hard to kill? GET OUTTA TOWN.
2. when shade ink is fixed/improved; scan will no longer provide an easy base nuke - you'd need marines to go in and kill the shade/s.
i can't deny that ARC's are the stand-out 'zomg too strong' thing from a lot of comp vods i've watched lately. i think if aliens have an easier time countering ARC's, then it might make actually make marines or at least ARC's too weak. point being that there's still a lot of fixing/balance tweaking to be done.
Sometimes if you are commanding players and they have no clue of the value in your little metal machines, they will not protect them and they will die very easily with no effort of protection from the marine side. Teamwork is needed from both the commander and the marine players for arc pushes to work, it is not a "get out of jail free card" for base sieges, to make them work at all you need a huge investment of time and resources from both players and the commander just to purchase them, and defending them is even more frustrating for the commander watching them and the players on the ground getting yelled at by him/her trying to point it out, aliens can just as easily (if not easier in my opinion) ninja bile rush a base (for about the same about of resource investment) while the marines are pushing with arcs.
The power of arcs comes from the marines forcing the issue of offense to the alien team. Most of the aliens teams in pubs just passively expand all over the map and take map control very easily, which most players bank off of so they can just save for onos to win the game (in-pubs). When the marines roll some arcs out onto the field and start threatening resources or tech points, the aliens are forced to do something about it or they will eventually lose those resources or tech points, and I think that most aliens teams aren't used to being able to respond in quick succession to a serious threat like that. They get all disorganized and freak out and either beeline to the arcs or just run around sporadically attacking some random resource point or base.
However I do think certain arc positions on certain maps are pretty broken, (i.e. hitting locker rooms hive from the corner of bar; hitting deposit hive from central drilling left rt) I don't think you should be able to deny a third of the alien tech tree investment just because of where you spawned (or decided to expand to).
Then again spamming crags is pretty overpowered right now as well so I guess its just having both overpowered implementations in effect at the same time.
the whole game is broken, they said so much but there is no content update anymore...
where are the webs as charlie promised?
where are the webs as charlie promised?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Oh Woe is Me!
Not a particularly helpful or constructive post, tbfh. It's simply not reasonable to expect a patch every 2 days with all the fixes/improvements/new features under the sun. These guys are working hard to improve performance, which should be the #1 priority. While Shade ink fixing is, in my opinion, an important fix, it's not as important as optimisation and dealing with some of the bigger issues, which UWE is already working on and will have out to us players as soon as possible.
The last thing we need on these forums is a bunch of people moaning about how awful the game is. We've got a fair few at the minute, and it's not helpful at all.
Bile Bomb tends to solve a lot of problems, and frees up a greater amount of combat-orientated aliens to charge marine spawn. Going by the average pub server, losing marine main is many orders of magnitude worse than losing a hive.
EDIT - Since it wasn't obvious, the point was that if you're expecting an ARC push then you should have BB pretty early after Hive 2 goes up. Assuming a reasonable worst case scenario of an ARC train on 2nd Hive, where you should be able to do enough damage with BB to make it easier to mop up and recover even IF you lose the 2nd Hive in the process.
If you're on one hive, with less than great Fades and no Onos, facing an ARC train... then you've basically lost the game, no amount of balance is going to fix that.
I have definitely won games with ARCs that I could not have won ARCs without. I've also definitively lost games because ARCs firing sequence became bugged. Since I play alien 90% of the time, my only complaint is that ARCs get a ridiculous armor bonus on movement which makes 5 skulks compromising an ARC train trivial where an exo train would be devastated.
And Aliens somehow don't need to kill command stations?
<!--quoteo(post=2040569:date=Dec 5 2012, 05:37 PM:name=hus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (hus @ Dec 5 2012, 05:37 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2040569"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Fixing shade ink would solve any gripes. At present I think its balanced because marine pub teams are composed generally of rubbish players.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's balanced because people are terrible.
...
What.
<!--quoteo(post=2040967:date=Dec 6 2012, 07:57 AM:name=Necrosis)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Necrosis @ Dec 6 2012, 07:57 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2040967"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I've seen ARCs supported by EXOs fail against 1 Hive aliens, so.... I'd suggest anyone having difficulties to maybe research Bile Bomb earlier in the game.
Bile Bomb tends to solve a lot of problems, and frees up a greater amount of combat-orientated aliens to charge marine spawn. Going by the average pub server, losing marine main is many orders of magnitude worse than losing a hive.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Wonderful idea, I wish I had thought of researching bile bomb with a single hive.
...
What.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes.
There isn't a huge requirement for an ARC counter (shade ink) right this minute because marine teams are composed of pretty average players and the current 60/40 alien advantage is reflected in that. It's not a hard concept to grasp
There isn't a huge requirement for an ARC counter (shade ink) right this minute because marine teams are composed of pretty average players and the current 60/40 alien advantage is reflected in that. It's not a hard concept to grasp<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
...If you can't see how ridiculous saying that allowing a broken mechanic to exist because players are bad is, I'm not bothering with this conversation.