Why do marines have a "Get out of jail free" card in regards to base sieging?
Zora-Link
Join Date: 2012-11-17 Member: 172195Members
Join Date: 2012-11-17 Member: 172195Members
Simply the title. Why is it that ARCs are allowed to ignore walls and take out most alien buildings in ~4-5 shots? Combine those two factors together with a small group of ARCs and their relatively high health, and they can take out the most well set up of alien defenses. I'm not quite sure I follow the logic. Particularly when they cost the same as a whip, yet a whip requires an additional 15 resource investment, plus maturity time, to even come close to equalling an ARC in siege power. Not to mention this still requires line of sight.
Why do they exist? They feel poisonous to any sense of fun for commanding as an Alien. I feel screwed when ARCs pop up, as even if I immediately get my team of aliens on them, they can still manage to screw up several crags/whips/etc, easily paying for themselves in counter resource cost, usually significantly more.
They ruin any strategical feel to base set up.
Why do they exist? They feel poisonous to any sense of fun for commanding as an Alien. I feel screwed when ARCs pop up, as even if I immediately get my team of aliens on them, they can still manage to screw up several crags/whips/etc, easily paying for themselves in counter resource cost, usually significantly more.
They ruin any strategical feel to base set up.
Comments
Definitely broken, as I've tried several times to stop scans with it and ARCs just give me the middle finger and then two shot my Shade in return. :|
When commanding i sometimes use them to flank the third hive whilst marines pressure 1 or 2, occasionally you can ninja a hive with them. But they're not nearly as effective as the impression you seem to have of them.
Most people seem to wonder why they're in the game at all; and sure they can shoot through walls, but their range is shorter than you could throw a rock.
I don't think I'm quite imagining a set up of 3 whips and 2 crags getting 3 shot by ARCs from behind 3 walls.
Yes, I'm complaining, and not quite calling OP, but certainly calling "Why?"
You can go 3 whips for the same cost that marines can get 1 ARC
You then need to have an obs and use scans so it is impossible to rush ARCs
You probably won't just have 1 ARC so realistically you're looking at 90-105 res when a push is successful
They are so slow that 1 gorge can mangle all of them even if it's a sacrifice move
This is imbalanced?
It's seriously the riskiest tactic in the game right now
You will find yourself have better success with whip rushes
I feel like someone is cheating when arcs take down deposit hive from central drilling in mineshaft.
You can go 3 whips for the same cost that marines can get 1 ARC
You then need to have an obs and use scans so it is impossible to rush ARCs
You probably won't just have 1 ARC so realistically you're looking at 90-105 res when a push is successful
They are so slow that 1 gorge can mangle all of them even if it's a sacrifice move
This is imbalanced?
It's seriously the riskiest tactic in the game right now
You will find yourself have better success with whip rushes<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ah you live in another universe with other episodes of ENSL...
I understand, so cartman.
Pls tell us more over your otherverse Arc weakness
You can go 3 whips for the same cost that marines can get 1 ARC
You then need to have an obs and use scans so it is impossible to rush ARCs
You probably won't just have 1 ARC so realistically you're looking at 90-105 res when a push is successful
They are so slow that 1 gorge can mangle all of them even if it's a sacrifice move
This is imbalanced?
It's seriously the riskiest tactic in the game right now
You will find yourself have better success with whip rushes<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
'This pretty much.
In NS2 you can build a large amount of arcs in your base, and then escort them to a hive through alien territory. The downside for marines compared to NS1 is that it takes more time and micromanagement to get the job done. The upside for marines is that (at least in pub games) aliens most of the time don't see it coming until it's too late, and it's pretty hard for aliens to take down an arc train once it's already at the hive's doorstep. Sure, they cost alot, and it's always a risky move, but it's not as fun imo.
Anyone know why they decided to make it mobile?
The addition of powernodes and infestation build rules makes this way unlikely.
Also, protecting the caravan of arcs while they get in position/deploy/scan is more dynamic than camping a single room while one guy tries to weld the guns up. There is the added flexibility of the Comm being able to run them around on his own which adds some options to how they're used.
Not in a matter of seconds!
And certainly not, if those ARC's are around a corner with Exo's in front of them, who are aiming at your Hive.
And the ARC's are destroying the Crag's the Alien commander has put up to heal the Gorges while they are bilebombing the Exo's...etc etc.
Very quickly, the Gorges become overstressed, and powerless because important upgrades near the Hive also get destroyed by the ARCs.
And certainly not, if those ARC's are around a corner with Exo's in front of them, who are aiming at your Hive.
And the ARC's are destroying the Crag's the Alien commander has put up to heal the Gorges while they are bilebombing the Exo's...etc etc.
Very quickly, the Gorges become overstressed, and powerless because important upgrades near the Hive also get destroyed by the ARCs.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Realize that you're talking about hundreds of T and P res spent on the Marine side among other things, like getting the ARCs there in the first place.
And certainly not, if those ARC's are around a corner with Exo's in front of them, who are aiming at your Hive.
And the ARC's are destroying the Crag's the Alien commander has put up to heal the Gorges while they are bilebombing the Exo's...etc etc.
Very quickly, the Gorges become overstressed, and powerless because important upgrades near the Hive also get destroyed by the ARCs.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'd say that if you let the Marines get multiple Exos and ARCs, your problems are much larger than just ARCs shooting through walls.
3 Arcs with Repair protected by 1 Exo...
Yesterday we got 3 Arcs in The Gap. One player waisted 4 to give gorges the time to kill the ARC..
Tell me more about how ###### weak marines are....
factory + ARC (upgrade) + ARC (unit) x several of them = a lot or res and time spent. Usually these are only seen late game and the commander has to spend all of his resources to build them up which could have been used to drop jets or exos, and they are easilly dispatched with onos or bile bomb. Although lately I've been seeing early ARC strats work on some maps which are sorta really good. The strength from this is because you need map control to build ARCs if you can get it early and siege the second hive it's not really an all-in if you lose the ARCs since you have the map control.
Onos are fairly decent as well.
also Khanander can place drifters (who are cloaked) in pretty much every room on the map for map vision, combined with aliens move speed for patrolling, and the slow speed of arcs themselves there is not much reason for aliens to be supried by an arc train.
Marines rely on tech and help break building lines. Phase Gates and ARC trains to help mobility and siege out a location. Aliens field giant monsters.
Heck, it was worse in NS1. You had to drop a Turret Factory, upgrade it, then build in a cramped location the siege turrets. Staying put and allowing the Aliens to respond (or wonder why there's a PG somewhere and no Marines on the rest of the map). They still cost a bunch to produce, and now have to travel across the map.
ARCs are fine.
Turrets are still terribly bad, but ARCs have their situational use. If you have a decent team that defends and then welds ARCs, you can easily win.
Sometimes ARCs are a much cheaper, safer, and faster alternative to breaking through whip/clog/hydra/crag spam than flamers or exos. The area effect of arc shots is huge.
I feel like someone is cheating when arcs take down deposit hive from central drilling in mineshaft.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think this is more a problem of maps being bad than arcs being bad. Sieges did the same thing in NS, but we just worked on all the maps until the siege points were fair.
When commanding i sometimes use them to flank the third hive whilst marines pressure 1 or 2, occasionally you can ninja a hive with them. But they're not nearly as effective as the impression you seem to have of them.
<b>Most people seem to wonder why they're in the game at all;</b> and sure they can shoot through walls, but their range is shorter than you could throw a rock.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The bolded section is my point. I find them highly toxic to gameplay.
<!--quoteo(post=2039824:date=Dec 4 2012, 08:39 AM:name=MaximumSquid)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MaximumSquid @ Dec 4 2012, 08:39 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2039824"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><u><b>Zora-Link:</b></u>
You can go 3 whips for the same cost that marines can get 1 ARC
You then need to have an obs and use scans so it is impossible to rush ARCs
You probably won't just have 1 ARC so realistically you're looking at 90-105 res when a push is successful
They are so slow that 1 gorge can mangle all of them even if it's a sacrifice move
This is imbalanced?
It's seriously the riskiest tactic in the game right now
You will find yourself have better success with whip rushes<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There's a difference between calling OP and thinking a mechanic is inherently just... bad. I find ARCs to be obnoxiously good at the one and only thing they do, with no other purpose. They blow up buildings obscenely well, but nothing else. Hell, I'd rather they made them fire much more quickly if they only made them require line of sight, instead of just being a free "Blast everything through this wall during a single scan." Give them something else to compensate, I don't care.
And claiming that you can get 3 whips for the cost of one ARC is BS at worst, misleading at best.
<!--quoteo(post=2039831:date=Dec 4 2012, 09:04 AM:name=Ograit)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Ograit @ Dec 4 2012, 09:04 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2039831"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think ARCs should have 1/3 damage when shooting through walls. Line of sight, full damage.
I feel like someone is cheating when arcs take down deposit hive from central drilling in mineshaft.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is what I'm trying to draw attention to. The extremely frustrating way they act in game. I feel slighted whenever I lose a building to an ARC, as there is quite literally nothing you can do to stop it.
Only so much a bunch of LMG's can do to a matured crag/whip/shade/clog/hydra clusterf**k in certain hives. ARC's are just the paper to beat rock when aliens are highly bunkered.
It's the counter to aliens having the clear advantage of securing double RP areas early.
You can actually get 2 ARCs up within about 3:30 minutes and this has the potential to be quite effective. This early in the game the aliens don't really have anything that can directly counter ARCs. But yes, this is a high risk strategy and it does definitely slow your progression through the tech tree.
Bonus points to any posters if they can find a viable use for 2 early game ARCs. Attacking alien nodes? De-fortifying Nanogrid and other alien outposts? Assaulting the building 2nd hive?
I feel like someone is cheating when arcs take down deposit hive from central drilling in mineshaft.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is a map problem. Not an arc problem.
Maps need to be designed with arcs in mind. Mineshaft clearly lacks this with regards to the deposit hive.