Locations within maps that assure victory if you can hold them
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The Lighter Side of Pessimism Join Date: 2002-03-02 Member: 263Members, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
The Lighter Side of Pessimism Join Date: 2002-03-02 Member: 263Members, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
<div class="IPBDescription">Are they a good thing or a bad thing?</div>One thing we see in a couple of the maps are locations that assure victory if you can hold them. Typically they provide map control or excessive res-flow, the really good ones provide both. A blatant example that comes to mind is Nanogrid on Veil; which is both in the center of the map and contains two resource nodes. Is it good to have locations like this in NS2 maps or do they unbalance things too much?
They can speed up the otherwise tedious end-game, where the losing team typically takes 20 min to fall. They can also focus the combat on one section of the map, leading to intense, prolonged battles instead of quick 1v1 and 2v2 skirmishes all over the map.
But, they can also reduce the number of viable strategies on a map. On Veil, every game is a rush to Nanogrid.
What do you guys think?
For context: In the map I'm working on atm, I'm playing with the idea of putting a double node tech point in the center of the map - BUT I'm also planning on structuring it so that it's almost impossible to hold without most of the team camping there.
They can speed up the otherwise tedious end-game, where the losing team typically takes 20 min to fall. They can also focus the combat on one section of the map, leading to intense, prolonged battles instead of quick 1v1 and 2v2 skirmishes all over the map.
But, they can also reduce the number of viable strategies on a map. On Veil, every game is a rush to Nanogrid.
What do you guys think?
For context: In the map I'm working on atm, I'm playing with the idea of putting a double node tech point in the center of the map - BUT I'm also planning on structuring it so that it's almost impossible to hold without most of the team camping there.
Comments
One of the reasons that nanogrid is ok in veil is that there is only 4 techpoints. Frequently the map becomes more about tech point control than it is about res control. It also gives the resource-losing faction (ie the one who doesn't hold double) the ability to turn it around by claiming or denying tech points. IE if aliens spawn cargo, take pipeline. Marines take double early. Even though aliens are clearly out-resed, they still may be able to deny or destroy sub even on 2 hives. I think it works well on veil because despite the power granted by two res and a central control spot to launch attacks from, that's not necessarily what veil is really about.
I think veil plays different from other maps and that is good. It is very important for maps to differentiate how they play from other maps. I think the double res node on veil is good for gameplay.
I suspect this is the true reason that losing it typically means defeat: The team that goes all-in and fails to capture nano can easily find themselves with no map control and no pooled resources.
Lava falls, on the other extreme of the spectrum, is in a very exposed position, with multiple access ways. Successfully holding it can in itself be an expensive exercise, especially if the opposing team manages to take both tech points to West & East.
my experience tells me that aliens with a lerk holds lava falls ridiciously easy. and its just a retardation check for marines: try hard holding it early game and you lose.
Specifically with nanogrid, it is just a location like any other, which just so happens to have two res nodes in it. It is horrendously vulnerable to bile bombs, unless the marine team chooses to rush grenade launchers, which in itself is a big risk. It is also in a very bad position if the aliens start in cargo or sub as it provides absolutely no access to pipe line. With the aliens in either cargo or sub, the other hive will almost always be their first expansion point, meaning that pipe is easy for the aliens to take, and hard for the marines to lock down. 2 res nodes in one room isn't going to help you against 3 hive aliens. Whether or not you can get the resources to beat the aliens before the three hives are put to effective use, well that has little to do with their being two res nodes in one room.
Its even less game changing for aliens. Not because 2 res nodes in one room isn't extremely beneficial for the alien team, but because of how simple it is two prevent the alien team from having double. Note, I didn't say how easy it is to <b>take </b>it from them, but to prevent them from having it. Two ARCs, a 10 second journey to west junction from marine spawn, and 2 scans, and nano is completely cleared out. Saying that that ensured victory is like saying the third hive ensures alien victory. Sure it does, but you aren't meant to let them have it.
Repair in mineshaft for marines.
Nanogrid on veil for either team.
Central on mineshaft for aliens.
Atrium for marines on summit.
Several others aren't QUITE as bad, but are also indicative of the team that owns them dominating the match.
But I'm not a mapper and have no free time :(
To turn this question the other way around, there are places on many maps which if you don't hold them (and/or don't stop the enemy holding them), you're likely to lose. It's very tough for marines on refinery if they let aliens have lava falls unchecked (unless they can seal up smelting and turbine very tight...). I know it's another way of looking at the same question... if aliens can stop marines taking central drilling (to some degree whether or not they hold the res nodes themselves), it's a whole lot easier on mineshaft (even if it's generally quite easy on there anyway for aliens, especially if they can control sorting and deposit, I find).
Roo
It's OK to have them, as you would see fights for them, but holding them doesn't mean much.
Aliens/Marines holding nano can (and there are records of that) still loose.
However, it's completely other story, when you have 5 alien RTs for long time, or 6/7 marine RTs.
So the answer to the topic is - <b>no</b>, there are no such locations which will assure victory.
And there is no reason for NOT having sweetspots in the map.
//competitive view.
Crossroads seems to be a little closer to what you're describing, with a node and a tech point that offers the same benefits as Hub, except it's quite easy to hold onto as a marine.
while these rooms offer interesting gameplay, NS2's "tech points in a ring surrounding around a large room" style of mapping can get repetitive and bland, so I would take a lot of time in designing the overall layout in order to make a central location like this unique.
something like double in <a href="http://img40.imageshack.us/img40/8017/nsorigin.jpg" target="_blank">ns_origin</a> might be quite close to what you're looking for. it's easy to assault the double nodes from the high ground, and fighting across multiple stories usually offers much more varied and fun gameplay.
the reason it sucks for Veil is due to the lack of nodes on the bottom half of the map, and not necessarily due to the room itself
Thats just my opinion anyway, but i never had trouble holding those locations (im commanding very often) as alien.
In veil for example, even if the marines get a hold on it pubs get usually screwed by a simultaneous assault from the front and the vents.
At nano, just get bile bomb and one gorge in the ventilation (going up by jumping on its clogs) can destroy everything, especially if marines do not have any jetpacks atm. (It's indeed a bit harder when you have to hide from a shotty/JP while bile bombing…)
At nano, just get bile bomb and one gorge in the ventilation (going up by jumping on its clogs) can destroy everything, especially if marines do not have any jetpacks atm. (It's indeed a bit harder when you have to hide from a shotty/JP while bile bombing…)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
oh talking about bile bomb in nano, i wanted to add. i have someone in the mapping forum or whatever saying that u cant gorge in the vent. i had chance tried it again and its true somehow: its hard to gorge in vent. perhaps we need a fix for this so that we dun have to spend 2 minutes trying to gorge tehre
The only room that I know of that guarantees a win right now is if Marines own Crusher on Mineshaft
The double res points don't mean much and change hands quite often when enough good people are playing
Nanogrid can get sieged with Arcs from the jagged hallway near Skylights
Central Drilling can get scanned and then gets dominated if enough of your team walks in there and from different entrances
<i>(it's actually a very difficult room to defend for aliens)</i>
Early Egg-Lock is a much bigger issue
I'll see aliens nearly overtaking marines, but then eggs run out and you lose 2 harvesters because half your team is up
1) Ease of Access is equal for both teams.
2) Game opening strategy doesn't solely resolve around taking it for either team.
Right now nano and lava falls both fail at one or both of these and as a result both maps are rather boring to play at the start (for aliens mostly).
I think Central Drilling in cave has a decent idea where both RT's are separated by a decently sized central room. Sometimes I even see a harvester on 1 and and extractor on the other, or a team will only drop 1 and leave the other open. I think that general idea is way better then nano and lava.
These are both far easier to regain mid/endgame once your tier 2 items are open, and Nano is easy to clear with an arc (too underused).
- Maintenance
- Stability Monitoring
These are both far easier to regain mid/endgame once your tier 2 items are open, and Nano is easy to clear with an arc (too underused).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This.
Double Res spots are far less of an issue now that tech points exist. Back in NS1, when you could drop a CC anywhere, Nano was a prime spot for relocating.
As long as access to double res spots is roughly equal, it shouldn't be a problem.
You just need some space to evolve (if your skulk's head is almost touching the roof, then you have to move). If you have enough space, then you can evolve whenever you want without any issue. As a gorge in nano, you can't evolve on top on the ventilation (too narrow) but you can easily evolve at its bottom and then climb to the top of the vent by dropping/destroying clogs.
And I personnally find it rather good to prevent aliens from evolving wherever they want in the ventilations (and other litigious spots such as on top of the hives).
Having worked on maps for other games before and spent a lot of time studying how SC1 and SC2 did it, I would suggest not being too into the 'high res but impossible to take' meme.
In many cases it just doesn't make things exciting. Instead it gets ignored until map control is absolute or is just a means to cheese with at best.
People in most games want straightforward but nuanced choices. It's not all about having lots of risk, changing hands and 'mobile gameplay.'
Take de_dust and de_aztec from Counter-strike, 2Fort from TF1/TF2 or any other number of staple maps in games including Veil. The choices are straightforward, different in specifics but rarely super-risky or even all that different from one another.
What differs is the exact execution of the strategy rather than the kind of strategy involved i.e. take double for super res or deny their third hive or set up a phase point to hit their second hive, etc.
How exactly one takes double or denies a third may be very different from location to location and map to map and that is what makes a map interesting, not the amazing new concept it introduces that only fifteen people who play it recognise and five people ever truly appreciate.
Make your mapped nuanced instead of controversial or 'cutting edge' and it will be a lot more fun to play than 'de_knifesedge' (super happy risk time edition).
It's from that nuance that the truly innovative or new concepts are found based on some (often unintended) dynamic that emerges from your sound design choices.