I've won games where I stuck it out in a losing position long after I started wanting to surrender. I had a game like this just yesterday, although in that case we did still have two hives at the time. It's just that the marines had locked down the rest of the map, and we had no forward momentum.
Aliens have more of a chance to "surprisingly win" than marines due to power nodes and base rushes.
With marines, unless you set up a phase gate right next to a hive or inside a hive (i.e. alien commander not paying attention), the wins are usually much more methodical, and if there is no aggression on 3 RTs or less, it's usually game.
There are exceptions to everything, but is it really worth discussing that one game two months ago where you turned things around (probably because people quit), followed by 100 predictable wins/losses?
Those exceptions, the unexpected come-backs, are the pure gold, the cream of the crop of NS games. Have been for a decade now. Yes, I think that making sure they can still happen is important, because THOSE are the games you remember.
IDK man, I get tired of playing through 100 hopeless stomps, especially if they last over 10 minutes, hoping for that one miraculous comeback.
When the player base on pubs matures more, maybe it'll be more likely for those combacks to happen. As it is now, when marines start losing RTs, and are ultimately confined to only two phase gate locations in 2 TPs without the RTs on the side, or 1 TP, the games rapidly become hopeless.
We have implemented the "surrender" plugin of DAK mod on the OldF server. When 60% of a given team agrees, the round ends. I thought that was more productive than causing people to ragequit, or idle in the ready room until enough of their compatriots follow them. We also did this to prevent rogue comms from recycling base, as it is sometimes hard to discern between a "legitimate recycle" and a griefer recycle when administrating via web console etc.
I think concede vote will absolutely be necessary. Imo the majority of pub games last too long on a point when marines have their last node up and they're defending from one room. Today there was a game that lasted 30 minutes in one room. The team believed in comeback, alien commander just had fun and echoed whips on every place you could think of (the alien team had like 9 rt:s for the whole time). The game didn't even finish when I left...
About recycling, I don't mind if a comm does that, although I don't do it myself. The only time I got irritated of a comm recycling ips was when I got ejected because of not building a second ip (game had 4 players each side), and after that someone jumped in and recycled everything because he thought the game was lost because we had only one ip.
I would be eternally grateful if you post the code to Max, so we can finally get this issue out of the way the next patch (I hope?). The required percentage should be configurable by admins and displayed when the vote is called.
I hate when people f4, mostly because of auto-balance. I don't like being punished basically for being on the winning team, sitting dead watching the rest of my team running around having a good time.
Also the fact that during this time I'm hoping for my own team to die so that I can play. On aliens I'll look through the players and think who could die that would matter the least... 'hmmm, don't want the onos to die, that fade seems pretty decent, don't want him to lose that... maybe the lerk? Yeah that wouldn't be a biggie.. oh great he's just sitting there is the vent... Go in and die you stupid lerk!'
And any time I want to try xenocide at the end of the game, but I guess the polite thing is to F4 in games, so I rarely want to do something that literally just kills me.
Not sure why anyone compares GG in SC2 to F4 in NS2. It would be like if you were 3v3 and one of your allies got attacked once and decided that your side lost so he is going to stop doing anything and just sit and watch.
<!--quoteo(post=2038104:date=Nov 30 2012, 03:38 PM:name=LilbitHeartless)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (LilbitHeartless @ Nov 30 2012, 03:38 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2038104"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Not sure why anyone compares GG in SC2 to F4 in NS2. It would be like if you were 3v3 and one of your allies got attacked once and decided that your side lost so he is going to stop doing anything and just sit and watch.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No, that's called a "rage quit."
F4 in the "surrender" sense is the equivalent of having your team's economy raided and destroyed in SC2 (that means all 3 people attacked AND repeatedly pushed back/killed), and then falling behind 3+ minutes in the tech race, and unable to expand while the enemy team has 70+% of the map and resources. Then quitting.
The game just needs a surrender vote; I can see how the major problem is people not being able to distinguish between F4 being used as a troll/rage-quit tool, and F4 being used as a surrender vote.
The problem there is that a vote is a vote. If that vote fails you should try to help the team out untill it is over, because the majority wants to fight. If you F4 after the vote fails or if you F4 before there was even a vote it is just a player going idle while the team is still fighting. Yes, you demonstrate with F4 that you surrender, but you forget the team when you do so. And that is the difference.
F4 takes the fun out of the endgame, but so does prolonging it.
I just enjoyed a game when the marines were getting stomped. The team agreed that the alien team was stacked/inbalanced/bugged, and recycled the arms lab but not the IPs. We then saw how long we could hold off against Onos with Lvl 0 Armor/Weapons.
They are more 'fun' ways to end a game then just F4.
While I dont expect people to stop F4ing my biggest request is to stop rejoining the game just to say "everyone f4".... EVERYONE knows how to F4 please dont spend 10 minutes jumping in and out saying "everyone f4" hoping that the 5th time you say it people will F4....
IF you F4 your out. (im not talking about disconnecting) But I seriously HATE when people say "game over.... everyone F4" then they F4 just to rejoin and keep playing.... If your going to quit be a man and stay out.
<!--quoteo(post=2038098:date=Dec 1 2012, 08:31 AM:name=torttuPmies)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (torttuPmies @ Dec 1 2012, 08:31 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2038098"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think concede vote will absolutely be necessary. Imo the majority of pub games last too long on a point when marines have their last node up and they're defending from one room. Today there was a game that lasted 30 minutes in one room. The team believed in comeback, alien commander just had fun and echoed whips on every place you could think of (the alien team had like 9 rt:s for the whole time). The game didn't even finish when I left...
About recycling, I don't mind if a comm does that, although I don't do it myself. The only time I got irritated of a comm recycling ips was when I got ejected because of not building a second ip (game had 4 players each side), and after that someone jumped in and recycled everything because he thought the game was lost because we had only one ip.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Lol at only 1 ip recycling....sad. The issue is that its too easy for marines to turtle as aliens dont have any real finishers that stand up end game to fully tech'd marines. Once marines have A3 W3, SG, GL, FT, setnries and armoury blockades it can take aliens a long time to try to wear them down. Sure you can try to get in and target the arms lab but they are so quickly rebuilt its easier to just target the power. Tie weapons and armour upgrades to the number of tech points so marines are not as strong on 1 CC as they are when they control the whole map. This would solve a lot of the issues as marines would not be able to turtle as easily as they wont deal out as much damage. The added benefit is that it give marines a reason to hold multiple comm chairs (and IP's locations) other than simply as back up. Aliens get weaker with fewer hives/tech points, if marines also where limited in this way we would not see these drawn out end games that reqire people to consider f4'ing or conceding. Instead of taking 20 min the aliens will be able to do it in 5 min saving everyone a lot of pain but no less enjoyment (as aliens wont die as often when finishing off the marine team).
I have no experience yet with this game, but this thread strongly reminds me of a very common multiplayer phenomenon that can be annoying.
I am of the philosophy that it doesnt matter if you are losing, you just dont quit, because the best games are those that seem lost and can be turned around. The problem is, this decision sometimes is less clear and there are these annoying people who immediately lose every motivation to try or continue once it slightly seems as if they are losing. Thos that cant lose, those that will never fight, those you always want to shout at "YOU SAW THAT?? WE WON AND YOU WERE WRONG WRONG WRONG!" There is a point in every game when its definetely lost. But if you are playing for fun it doesnt matter, because its fun. So you do your best. And you dont ###### away from a loss by telling yourself "losing was my own decision at least".
Just my opinion on this. I can understand it out of a high level of experience though, professional Starcraft 2 matches drawn out which cant be won are useless. But those are pros and not playing for fun. For fun, you can play if you are losing as well, thats part of the fun to some point.
It is a big difference between public games and tournaments. Watch how dota2 does it. And why do you F4 people bother with playing a game where you will loose 50% ot the games? If the game calculated for you with advanced calculations that you will loose the game, would you f4 immediatly? And why is it more fun to play a winning game than a loosing game?
People simply have formed their own opinion on whether F4 is a good idea or not. It's pretty interesting that a lot of us are so individually divided on the matter. Consider the many factors:
No F4 - The end game may be fun, even if the player has acknowledged a loss. - The end game is fun because the player HASN'T acknowledged a loss, thus the value of winning is even higher. - The player has too much pride to give up. - The player thinks the winning team deserves the visual accomplishment of the complete elimination of the enemy. - The player might believe that the game would be anti-climatic with F4. (closely tied to the above reason)
F4 - The mid/early game is more valued due to its uncertainty. - The mid game is more fun since skill matters more. Individual skill can have a large effect in early game, but skill matters less as structures/upgrades/map dominance are pushed towards the favor of the winning side. - It's for the above reason that tournament players lean towards F4. Pro players value skill the most, and more skill is gained through challenge... Some would claim the end game has skill. I'm under the impression that pro players do not believe in this claim. - Admittedly, at least a few people want to F4 due to the same psychological reasons players ragequit in other games. A loss has varying degrees of losing morale.
You might have a few reasons to add in here too, but the majority of people have already selected what they believe in.
Please. We are a mature community. The reasons in this thread to F4 or to not F4 are all VALID. The only people I don't agree with are the ones that think people that disagree with them are "OnosStool".
<!--quoteo(post=2038133:date=Nov 30 2012, 11:54 PM:name=Davil)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Davil @ Nov 30 2012, 11:54 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2038133"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Here's an easy way to end the game, find another server. Problem solved.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=2037663:date=Nov 30 2012, 06:03 AM:name=RedSword)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RedSword @ Nov 30 2012, 06:03 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2037663"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->As aliens, people camping and not being agressive denying RT's makes me mad.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I can only say that you simply shouldn't care. This is bad game design. If most of normal players don't get the idea that RTs = money = victory because effect of res flow on team/them is hard to notice then it's a broken design.
I've played one mod where one map had lots of such quirks. Getting annoyed because 90% of players (even old noobs that thought they were intelligent and so on) didn't really know what they had to do makes no sense. You'll get frustrated but there'll be 30x as many noobs, 5x as many cocky noobs than people that try to explain what to do.
Things that you mentioned are either "obvious" or require some kind "sacrifice" or at least potential sacrifice. That map had a bottleneck that had to be won and there was only 1, very insecure exit to that area. You were totally exposed for 0.5-1s but once you were there you could hide behind boxes and just stay at capture point until contested area became yours. Absolutely no one tried to rush to the boxes, they were all sitting in the "safe" room throwing (absolutely useless) grenades around. Since map's victory was time-based it was extremely frustrating to watch.
Why was it "broken"? Because average noob thought that dying=bad and didn't risk at all. It required quite a bit of looking around and some experience to notice that those boxes covered you from 95% of enemy fire and team of 5 players around there were able to kill any potential enemy and finish the capture. But because it was hard for average noob to notice it you had 5-15 players just staying in the "safe" room doing nothing useful.
Convincing noobs that biting enemy RTs is important might be hard to do, but designing games is hard in general.
<!--quoteo(post=2038133:date=Dec 1 2012, 01:54 AM:name=Davil)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Davil @ Dec 1 2012, 01:54 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2038133"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Here's an easy way to end the game, find another server. Problem solved.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> You're very smart, all people are dumb, every game (especially NS2) is great. It's just those stupid people that don't know how to play it well. Have fun playing with all those 5-10 smart people that are there.
I'd say the issue isn't at all F4 related. It is the complete lack of an effective end game mechanic for aliens. If marines own the entire map, aliens have 1 hive and 1 RT then the game can end in seconds (exos, ARCs, GLs). If aliens own the entire map and marines have 1 CC and 1 RT, the game can go on for 10 minutes simply because the onoses cannot get through the GL/Exo/Sentry/Mine/W3 spam.
Give aliens some end game feature, or artillery equivalent to ARCs, and a lot of this problem will go away. My personal favourite would be once you hit 3 hives the infestation starts growing of its own accord from cysts to infinite range (i.e. into the marine base in a couple of minutes), and any buildings on the infestation take a smallish amount of damage, something like 50 dps. This provides the endgame ability for aliens, fits in with the lore (marines trying to stop alien incursion), and imo would be kind of cool seeing the infestation slowly creep into a marine base and start corroding the buildings.
This doesn't stop the marines from performing a comeback - they have a few minutes of no problems at all, after that they need to keep their base up and kill a hive. It just stops the endless ability to turtle which may be fun for some marines, but ends up being frustrating for the aliens in the end.
<!--quoteo(post=2038727:date=Dec 2 2012, 04:33 AM:name=Tiomat)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tiomat @ Dec 2 2012, 04:33 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2038727"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Give aliens some end game feature, or artillery equivalent to ARCs, and a lot of this problem will go away.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Gorge bile bomb is the equivalent to ARCs. The only problem is that it doesn't go through walls :-) . Even so, it ends the game pretty quickly. Usually the very long "marine turtling" games are because a crap alien team won the RTS game, usually due to lack of teamwork, bad commander, or both on marine side.
Leave f4/GG to the pro's.... If your a pro sure you know the game is over (your not playing against someone who is going to Mae a big enough mistake for you to come back). Problems in a pub people call GG before its time, odds are if your in an NS2 pub 2/3 of. The enemy are pretty new and open to making mistakes, so don't call a game over until its over.q
<!--quoteo(post=2038429:date=Dec 1 2012, 01:40 PM:name=godrifle)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (godrifle @ Dec 1 2012, 01:40 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2038429"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->F4 - The mid/early game is more valued due to its uncertainty. - The mid game is more fun since skill matters more. Individual skill can have a large effect in early game, but skill matters less as structures/upgrades/map dominance are pushed towards the favor of the winning side. - It's for the above reason that tournament players lean towards F4. Pro players value skill the most, and more skill is gained through challenge... Some would claim the end game has skill. I'm under the impression that pro players do not believe in this claim. - Admittedly, at least a few people want to F4 due to the same psychological reasons players ragequit in other games. A loss has varying degrees of losing morale.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> There's a fair bit of straw man here. anyone who actually likes a game will play out the game they feel like they have a chance at, it isn't that as soon as the game reaches "late game" people aren't having fun any more and just want to quit. Late game is fun if there isn't a team that has clearly crushed the other, it's still a back and forth battle. It has nothing to do with being a "pro" player (which is unfairly a term of disdain here), it just has to do with not wasting time in a phase of the game where there's nothing left that can be done to manipulate the outcome. It's a waste of time because you're not utilizing and real practical skill anymore, you're just delaying the inevitable. Many players want only want to play a game they actually can win, and I don't think that's always too much to ask.
I like to play the games out, but there are some occasions that gg/f4 is necessary. Sometimes you get screwed in the start. Your comm might have disconnected, maybe no one wanted to go comm at all, or some other catastrophe. Then there are the games when the alien team just can't get their crap together and finish. When it's no longer fun and people just want to start playing again, it's time to concede.
It gets really bad when you're on the winning team trying to finish, and the other team tries to f4 before you've even put the hive down to half health. All of a sudden you're stuck and can't spawn with only 3 people trying to take down a hive.
Comments
With marines, unless you set up a phase gate right next to a hive or inside a hive (i.e. alien commander not paying attention), the wins are usually much more methodical, and if there is no aggression on 3 RTs or less, it's usually game.
There are exceptions to everything, but is it really worth discussing that one game two months ago where you turned things around (probably because people quit), followed by 100 predictable wins/losses?
recycling everything is just good manners if people won't F4
When the player base on pubs matures more, maybe it'll be more likely for those combacks to happen. As it is now, when marines start losing RTs, and are ultimately confined to only two phase gate locations in 2 TPs without the RTs on the side, or 1 TP, the games rapidly become hopeless.
About recycling, I don't mind if a comm does that, although I don't do it myself. The only time I got irritated of a comm recycling ips was when I got ejected because of not building a second ip (game had 4 players each side), and after that someone jumped in and recycled everything because he thought the game was lost because we had only one ip.
Also the fact that during this time I'm hoping for my own team to die so that I can play. On aliens I'll look through the players and think who could die that would matter the least... 'hmmm, don't want the onos to die, that fade seems pretty decent, don't want him to lose that... maybe the lerk? Yeah that wouldn't be a biggie.. oh great he's just sitting there is the vent... Go in and die you stupid lerk!'
And any time I want to try xenocide at the end of the game, but I guess the polite thing is to F4 in games, so I rarely want to do something that literally just kills me.
Not sure why anyone compares GG in SC2 to F4 in NS2. It would be like if you were 3v3 and one of your allies got attacked once and decided that your side lost so he is going to stop doing anything and just sit and watch.
No, that's called a "rage quit."
F4 in the "surrender" sense is the equivalent of having your team's economy raided and destroyed in SC2 (that means all 3 people attacked AND repeatedly pushed back/killed), and then falling behind 3+ minutes in the tech race, and unable to expand while the enemy team has 70+% of the map and resources. Then quitting.
The game just needs a surrender vote; I can see how the major problem is people not being able to distinguish between F4 being used as a troll/rage-quit tool, and F4 being used as a surrender vote.
If the other team is so bad that I don't really feel like I'm getting anything from it then I just leave and find a new server.
I just enjoyed a game when the marines were getting stomped. The team agreed that the alien team was stacked/inbalanced/bugged, and recycled the arms lab but not the IPs. We then saw how long we could hold off against Onos with Lvl 0 Armor/Weapons.
They are more 'fun' ways to end a game then just F4.
IF you F4 your out. (im not talking about disconnecting) But I seriously HATE when people say "game over.... everyone F4" then they F4 just to rejoin and keep playing.... If your going to quit be a man and stay out.
About recycling, I don't mind if a comm does that, although I don't do it myself. The only time I got irritated of a comm recycling ips was when I got ejected because of not building a second ip (game had 4 players each side), and after that someone jumped in and recycled everything because he thought the game was lost because we had only one ip.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Lol at only 1 ip recycling....sad.
The issue is that its too easy for marines to turtle as aliens dont have any real finishers that stand up end game to fully tech'd marines.
Once marines have A3 W3, SG, GL, FT, setnries and armoury blockades it can take aliens a long time to try to wear them down.
Sure you can try to get in and target the arms lab but they are so quickly rebuilt its easier to just target the power.
Tie weapons and armour upgrades to the number of tech points so marines are not as strong on 1 CC as they are when they control the whole map.
This would solve a lot of the issues as marines would not be able to turtle as easily as they wont deal out as much damage.
The added benefit is that it give marines a reason to hold multiple comm chairs (and IP's locations) other than simply as back up.
Aliens get weaker with fewer hives/tech points, if marines also where limited in this way we would not see these drawn out end games that reqire people to consider f4'ing or conceding.
Instead of taking 20 min the aliens will be able to do it in 5 min saving everyone a lot of pain but no less enjoyment (as aliens wont die as often when finishing off the marine team).
I am of the philosophy that it doesnt matter if you are losing, you just dont quit, because the best games are those that seem lost and can be turned around. The problem is, this decision sometimes is less clear and there are these annoying people who immediately lose every motivation to try or continue once it slightly seems as if they are losing. Thos that cant lose, those that will never fight, those you always want to shout at "YOU SAW THAT?? WE WON AND YOU WERE WRONG WRONG WRONG!" There is a point in every game when its definetely lost. But if you are playing for fun it doesnt matter, because its fun. So you do your best. And you dont ###### away from a loss by telling yourself "losing was my own decision at least".
Just my opinion on this. I can understand it out of a high level of experience though, professional Starcraft 2 matches drawn out which cant be won are useless. But those are pros and not playing for fun. For fun, you can play if you are losing as well, thats part of the fun to some point.
No F4
- The end game may be fun, even if the player has acknowledged a loss.
- The end game is fun because the player HASN'T acknowledged a loss, thus the value of winning is even higher.
- The player has too much pride to give up.
- The player thinks the winning team deserves the visual accomplishment of the complete elimination of the enemy.
- The player might believe that the game would be anti-climatic with F4. (closely tied to the above reason)
F4
- The mid/early game is more valued due to its uncertainty.
- The mid game is more fun since skill matters more. Individual skill can have a large effect in early game, but skill matters less as structures/upgrades/map dominance are pushed towards the favor of the winning side.
- It's for the above reason that tournament players lean towards F4. Pro players value skill the most, and more skill is gained through challenge... Some would claim the end game has skill. I'm under the impression that pro players do not believe in this claim.
- Admittedly, at least a few people want to F4 due to the same psychological reasons players ragequit in other games. A loss has varying degrees of losing morale.
You might have a few reasons to add in here too, but the majority of people have already selected what they believe in.
Please. We are a mature community. The reasons in this thread to F4 or to not F4 are all VALID. The only people I don't agree with are the ones that think people that disagree with them are "OnosStool".
Amen
I can only say that you simply shouldn't care. This is bad game design. If most of normal players don't get the idea that RTs = money = victory because effect of res flow on team/them is hard to notice then it's a broken design.
I've played one mod where one map had lots of such quirks. Getting annoyed because 90% of players (even old noobs that thought they were intelligent and so on) didn't really know what they had to do makes no sense. You'll get frustrated but there'll be 30x as many noobs, 5x as many cocky noobs than people that try to explain what to do.
Things that you mentioned are either "obvious" or require some kind "sacrifice" or at least potential sacrifice. That map had a bottleneck that had to be won and there was only 1, very insecure exit to that area. You were totally exposed for 0.5-1s but once you were there you could hide behind boxes and just stay at capture point until contested area became yours. Absolutely no one tried to rush to the boxes, they were all sitting in the "safe" room throwing (absolutely useless) grenades around. Since map's victory was time-based it was extremely frustrating to watch.
Why was it "broken"? Because average noob thought that dying=bad and didn't risk at all. It required quite a bit of looking around and some experience to notice that those boxes covered you from 95% of enemy fire and team of 5 players around there were able to kill any potential enemy and finish the capture. But because it was hard for average noob to notice it you had 5-15 players just staying in the "safe" room doing nothing useful.
Convincing noobs that biting enemy RTs is important might be hard to do, but designing games is hard in general.
You're very smart, all people are dumb, every game (especially NS2) is great. It's just those stupid people that don't know how to play it well. Have fun playing with all those 5-10 smart people that are there.
Give aliens some end game feature, or artillery equivalent to ARCs, and a lot of this problem will go away. My personal favourite would be once you hit 3 hives the infestation starts growing of its own accord from cysts to infinite range (i.e. into the marine base in a couple of minutes), and any buildings on the infestation take a smallish amount of damage, something like 50 dps. This provides the endgame ability for aliens, fits in with the lore (marines trying to stop alien incursion), and imo would be kind of cool seeing the infestation slowly creep into a marine base and start corroding the buildings.
This doesn't stop the marines from performing a comeback - they have a few minutes of no problems at all, after that they need to keep their base up and kill a hive. It just stops the endless ability to turtle which may be fun for some marines, but ends up being frustrating for the aliens in the end.
Gorge bile bomb is the equivalent to ARCs. The only problem is that it doesn't go through walls :-) . Even so, it ends the game pretty quickly. Usually the very long "marine turtling" games are because a crap alien team won the RTS game, usually due to lack of teamwork, bad commander, or both on marine side.
You can't make people F4.
- The mid/early game is more valued due to its uncertainty.
- The mid game is more fun since skill matters more. Individual skill can have a large effect in early game, but skill matters less as structures/upgrades/map dominance are pushed towards the favor of the winning side.
- It's for the above reason that tournament players lean towards F4. Pro players value skill the most, and more skill is gained through challenge... Some would claim the end game has skill. I'm under the impression that pro players do not believe in this claim.
- Admittedly, at least a few people want to F4 due to the same psychological reasons players ragequit in other games. A loss has varying degrees of losing morale.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There's a fair bit of straw man here. anyone who actually likes a game will play out the game they feel like they have a chance at, it isn't that as soon as the game reaches "late game" people aren't having fun any more and just want to quit. Late game is fun if there isn't a team that has clearly crushed the other, it's still a back and forth battle. It has nothing to do with being a "pro" player (which is unfairly a term of disdain here), it just has to do with not wasting time in a phase of the game where there's nothing left that can be done to manipulate the outcome. It's a waste of time because you're not utilizing and real practical skill anymore, you're just delaying the inevitable. Many players want only want to play a game they actually can win, and I don't think that's always too much to ask.
It gets really bad when you're on the winning team trying to finish, and the other team tries to f4 before you've even put the hive down to half health. All of a sudden you're stuck and can't spawn with only 3 people trying to take down a hive.