I think the portal change puts the marines on an even keel with aliens doing the fast phase rush. The only change to the BO for the fast phase rush to do it equally as fast (I know there is about a 5 resource difference overall, but thats not that long of a time when you would use this build) now you only do 1 portal instead of 2, and the fast phase will be alive. The difference is now the aliens have a chance, as currently, with 2 portals, the marines spawn 2x as fast, and dont have to worry about travel time. Now you will have a grace period as aliens of about 3 minutes before they can afford and get operational that 2nd portal.
Instead of IP,IP,armory,obs,phase at main, phase at hive...
now it will be
IP,armory,obs, phase at main,phase at hive.
that gives the aliens a fighting chance vs. a well executed phase rush, as marines spawn 2x faster with 2 portals, which you cannot have now and still do a real fast phase rush.
The problem with the phase rush in 1.04 will end up being you need i believe 2 more sentries to offset the lower phase gate HP's. You now need to kill the skulks faster, so therefore more sentries, or more marines hanging around there. The lower hp really nerfs the rush to kill the main hive, so while I am not totally happy with the hp change along with the cost change, I can live with it. This will give aliens the time to get their second hive and expand more to get a solid cash-flow coming in. There isnt really a whole lot I see a commander can do about that now.
I dont really think the fades needed to be nerfed, just people need to understand you have to charge a fade with at least 2 marines, and dont let him run away to heal. If you let the fade heal back up, you might as well just type kill in console. Another thing, why is it fades keep the acid rockets if you take down the second hive, but lerks lose umbra? there is a lack of consistency there I think.
As far as the seige changes go, I would prefer 1 or the other, not both. increased scan cost, and must be in sight of either marine or scan, or lower range. I think simply not allowing things to be built in the vent areas would nerf seige plenty. While on hera, seiging both hives from one spot is bad, and I can understand the desire to change that. seiging viaduct from the red room on nothing is about impossible to stop as aliens unless you get them before they have phase/sentries up in there. I dont know if there is the ability to differentuate in the HL engine between vents and other places.. *shrugs* but it would be nice.
Another change which I dont see discussed, the nodes available on the different maps is a big part of balance/unbalance. On nothing for example, if the aliens dont start in cargo bay hive, they cant get there fast enough to stop the marines from taking it, and the 3 nodes in there. If they get those 3 nodes and docking wing 1, its game over for the aliens. I think consistency in nodes/area on each map would go a long way torwards balancing the game more then any nerf on 1 particular part of the game. On nothing, there is 3 nodes in cargo bay hive, while the power silo has 2. Thus whomever claims the cargo bay first has an inherent resource advantage. Currently in 1.03 phase rush, unless the marines are awful shots, imagine the aliens start at power silo, the marines will get 5 nodes before the aliens can think of getting hive #2. Thats where the fast seiges of hive #2 come from, a resouce advantage/disadvantage. Once the marines get 4 nodes up and running, they can upgrade fairly fast, and still have money left to support offensive operations/defending your gains. I have never lost nothing as comm when my marines were able to grab and hold cargo bay initially, simply thru the resource advantage I now have over the gorge/aliens. The reverse that I have never been able to gorge my team to victory when we started anywhere but cargo bay also holds true except vs. the worst marine teams. That is a change that needs to be worked on in my opinion moreso then nerf'ing any 1 particular aspect of the game..
<!--QuoteBegin--captmorgan+Dec 23 2002, 03:07 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (captmorgan @ Dec 23 2002, 03:07 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Another thing, why is it fades keep the acid rockets if you take down the second hive, but lerks lose umbra? there is a lack of consistency there I think.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Fades lose Blink, which is their third weapon. Lerks lose Umbra, which is their third weapon. Acid rocket is weapon 2, just like Spikes is weapon 2 for Lerks.
Am I the only one who's excited about this new development in siege technology?? Just think of the possibilities:
Build 5 sieges in an out-of-the-way spot near a hive, without harming a single thing.. then, the aliens hanging around the hive see pretty blue waves, followed by so many shockwaves that their hive is gone before they know what hit 'em! <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--Gahordek+Dec 23 2002, 08:22 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Gahordek @ Dec 23 2002, 08:22 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Am I the only one who's excited about this new development in siege technology?? Just think of the possibilities:
Build 5 sieges in an out-of-the-way spot near a hive, without harming a single thing.. then, the aliens hanging around the hive see pretty blue waves, followed by so many shockwaves that their hive is gone before they know what hit 'em! <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> actually that is no triumph, AT ALL, heres why: you could do the same thing earlier, build 3 sieges, make the marines build em up to 99% and them fire em up all at same time... so really, why should you be excited about things gone waaaaaaaay worse?
<!--QuoteBegin--NinjaBurger+Dec 23 2002, 06:13 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (NinjaBurger @ Dec 23 2002, 06:13 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--captmorgan+Dec 23 2002, 03:07 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (captmorgan @ Dec 23 2002, 03:07 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Another thing, why is it fades keep the acid rockets if you take down the second hive, but lerks lose umbra? there is a lack of consistency there I think.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Fades lose Blink, which is their third weapon. Lerks lose Umbra, which is their third weapon. Acid rocket is weapon 2, just like Spikes is weapon 2 for Lerks.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> forgot about that, you are correct.
<!--QuoteBegin--matso42+Dec 22 2002, 10:51 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (matso42 @ Dec 22 2002, 10:51 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->- Aliens no longer donate their points back to their team resource pool when they leave the team (exploitable)<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
Just came back from playing my first game as commander of a 1.04 marine team.
My initial thought on this patch: frustrating. You know that feeling where you feel like you're doing everything right and still somehow losing? Thats how I felt playing this game.
The phase portals are weak now. As well, it's kindof a **obscenity** to sit there waiting for that extra 10 res points. You're just SITTING there. Not as fun as having to gaurd someone while they build something... perhaps increase the build time instead of the cost (it's basically the same thing, just in a different form).
I can see the need for nerfing the phase portals, but I think the health was lowered by just a little too much. 2 skulks can kill the thing before people have a chance to respawn and get back through there. It sort of defeats the purpose of a phase gate.
Flayra if you are reading this for constructive critism here is my take. The changes to the phase gate make it so that building a turret factory first is the smarter move. Then once the fortifications are built you can build the phase gate in case fades come and attack. Before this patch people built phase gates first because their durability meant that if those building things died they had time to respawn and get back into the fight.
So basically I'll be changing my strategy to build the turret factory first, and then the phase gate. If this is closer to what you intended peoples building strat to be then cool. I personally really liked my phase first then turret fact second..
The siege change didn't come up in my game (didn't have siege long enough to notice a difference). One thing I don't understand is changing the scanner sweep to 3 rp. You've basically made the siege into a pay-to-play gun. 3 rp may not seem like much, but when you're trying to save for stuff it's a pain (we all know how annoying it is when a marine at main base asks for a medpack when they could just kill themself).
I'm sorry my post isn't more constructive...these are more just random thoughts and feelings. I'm gonna play some more and I'll post what I think as I get some more experience. Cheers.
I've experimented with the sieges, after a server reboot left a 1.04 server in the hands of me and another guy. Sieges now require visual spotting for every shot, meaning that every ping of a sensor sweep will get you one shot from the nearby sieges. Just one. Maybe if you spam the sweeps you can get three shots from two sweeps, but you won't get more than that. Fortunately, the marine need not be looking at the target, the cannon blew up a defense chamber that I had my back to, you just need a clear line of sight between the marine and the chamber.
Also, in case you were wondering, chambers built within the scanning radius of an observatory will not be shot. So no being able to plop down an observatory next to the cannon to use as an automated spotter, it needs an active scanner sweep or someone actually in sight of the target.
I have mixed feelings about this. I never liked rush tactics for either side, so I didn't mind slowing down phase gates. And sieges were somewhat obnoxious in their 'insta-death to any Gorge who happened to build anything within half a mile' feature, even though they were a very strong part of human strategy. Giving a blow to phase gates, sieges, AND infantry portals all in one fell swoop, however, is reckless in my opinion. It's like trying to diagnose a computer problem; you don't replace every part at once, you swap them out one at a time until the problem goes away so you can find the culprit. Making such a wave of changes all at once denies the possibility of pinpointing the one change that would slow down the marine rush, if such a single change fix exists.
<!--QuoteBegin--Kitsune+Dec 24 2002, 01:09 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Kitsune @ Dec 24 2002, 01:09 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Giving a blow to phase gates, sieges, AND infantry portals all in one fell swoop, however, is reckless in my opinion. It's like trying to diagnose a computer problem; you don't replace every part at once, you swap them out one at a time until the problem goes away so you can find the culprit.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> well i think the point of this is to balance out the game a bit. as previous people have mentioned, marines spawn in twice as fast as alien, thus giving them the advantage in the opening game.
the siege was always a problem. from what i heard, the seige range was a last minute change, which got a few of the mappers angry, cause of the dual seiging points, or easy to seige from locations.
as far as the phase gates are concerned, i did think that those were kinda cheap, and as alien, the bane of my existenence.
the fact is that it may not be one of these that is unbalancing the game but, in fact, all of them.
---
with that said, i was wondering when the "select all marines" feature was being added? i thought it was suppose to be in the next release, but i dont see that up there.
Well, 1.04 seems like it could slow down the pace of NS slighty, something which I'd greatly appreciate.
Ever since that first patch in 1.01 when fades became so much more powerful, whoever gets 2 hives first has become more and more important, not only that, but players have been finding faster and faster rush strats. I'm hoping that by nerfing a whole bunch of rushing options things will go some way to making the NS games longer again.
Currently main marine strategy revolves around stopping the aliens from getting fades. How about some incentive for marines to try and get ha and hmg asap so they can go toe to toe with the fades? This would make the mid-game a natural progression from the start-game, rather than making the mid-game the be-all and end-all of many matches played on public servers.
Making fades weaker should help.. ANY reduction to the alien res is a good thing as atm by the time aliens have 2 hives then any decend fade player will survive at least long enough to get 44 res and so make fade as soon as they respawn.
Personally I think fades should be made weaker still as 2 fades + lurk & umbra can absolutly mash anything except a GL. Problem with GL's is a newb ALWAYS gets hold of it and goes off rambo <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo-->
It makes the upgrade paths abit confused, against good aliens you NEED that GL.
The one thing I REALLY don't like is the scan cost increase, scan does not do alot, but what it used to do WAS usefull.
Lets assume you use scan to decide which of the two alien held locations you want to attack, you scan the first one with 3 scans to check its soft (one at the hive two at the bottlenecks).. and find that its reasonably hardend but not so overly done that you can't take it. (it also isn't so built up that a gorge would've spent too much time/res building to build at the other location).
You say 'sod it' and scan the other defences with 3 scans to check its hardness and discover that its exactly the same as the first.
You've now wasted 18 res, more than a shotgun and discoverd that eather hive could be a target.
Alternativly if you just said 'sod it' and attacked with the shotgun you'd COULD end up hitting the one hive they've built def at, get slaughterd horribly and once again you've wasted a res.
If the increase was up to 2 instead of 3 the cost of scanning two hives would be 12, still a LOT more than the 6 it used to be but not the 12 increase we see now.
Basically scan was a very usefull tool for just keeping a handle on what was going on. It now is too expensive to use in that way.
<!--QuoteBegin--Revenge+Dec 24 2002, 10:45 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Revenge @ Dec 24 2002, 10:45 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Currently main marine strategy revolves around stopping the aliens from getting fades. How about some incentive for marines to try and get ha and hmg asap so they can go toe to toe with the fades? This would make the mid-game a natural progression from the start-game, rather than making the mid-game the be-all and end-all of many matches played on public servers.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I have been trying to come up with a way of saying this. Well put, and this is the direction I think future patches should be heading. As it is now, the highest tech of marines (HMG+HA) just BARELY holds their own against fades. That is why there is so much emphasis on getting 2 hives right away (and why the phase gates were so important).
I would suggest making the HMG come into play later, but make the HA much less expensive/easier to get. HA would let people survive long enough to at leat be able to get some buildings up.
<!--QuoteBegin--sender+Dec 24 2002, 02:30 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (sender @ Dec 24 2002, 02:30 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--Revenge+Dec 24 2002, 10:45 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Revenge @ Dec 24 2002, 10:45 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Currently main marine strategy revolves around stopping the aliens from getting fades. How about some incentive for marines to try and get ha and hmg asap so they can go toe to toe with the fades? This would make the mid-game a natural progression from the start-game, rather than making the mid-game the be-all and end-all of many matches played on public servers.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I have been trying to come up with a way of saying this. Well put, and this is the direction I think future patches should be heading. As it is now, the highest tech of marines (HMG+HA) just BARELY holds their own against fades. That is why there is so much emphasis on getting 2 hives right away (and why the phase gates were so important).
I would suggest making the HMG come into play later, but make the HA much less expensive/easier to get. HA would let people survive long enough to at leat be able to get some buildings up.
Anyhow..<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Try playing as a Fade against a team of HA/HMG working together and welding each other.... with a phase gate nearby.
<!--QuoteBegin--Kilmster+Dec 24 2002, 03:07 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Kilmster @ Dec 24 2002, 03:07 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If you happen to get killed while phase-rushing; the aliens will just take the phase and pwn your ips.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Getlmemen, I give you the perfect coutner to the phase rush.
matsoMaster of PatchesJoin Date: 2002-11-05Member: 7000Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, Squad Five Gold, Reinforced - Shadow, NS2 Community Developer
<!--QuoteBegin--sender+Dec 24 2002, 12:25 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (sender @ Dec 24 2002, 12:25 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The siege change didn't come up in my game (didn't have siege long enough to notice a difference). One thing I don't understand is changing the scanner sweep to 3 rp. You've basically made the siege into a pay-to-play gun. 3 rp may not seem like much, but when you're trying to save for stuff it's a pain (we all know how annoying it is when a marine at main base asks for a medpack when they could just kill themself). <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> There is one thing with the new siege - it's a great way to use the aliens chambers against them. That fade using hit-n-run, using healing chambers around the corner? Next time he ducks back, scan the chambers and watch 350 pts of siege kill him dead.
Works great with motion tracking as well .. a marine can use enemy chambers as defensive outposts .. stay around the corner, wait for the alien to get close to the buildings.. then step around the corner and watch the siege kill him, then back around the corner to let the chambers heal up ... :-)
All in all, I think the siege changes makes for a more fun game. If it makes the marines too weak, then upgrade another aspect of the marines to compensate for it - like cheaper shotguns or research.
Regarding umbra...yes, it's very, very nice. On the other hand, there is an easy way to defeat it: GL. If you catch the lerk off guard, it'll die extremely quickly.
While umbra is pretty uber, it's all a lerk really has in high level engagements. Making umbra significantly worse would just make the lerk suck.
<!--QuoteBegin--Legionnaired+Dec 24 2002, 02:58 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Legionnaired @ Dec 24 2002, 02:58 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Try playing as a Fade against a team of HA/HMG working together and welding each other.... with a phase gate nearby.
It's tough. Very tough.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> True, but in order to get to the HMG+HA stage you have to invest A LOT of res points. HGM+HA+WELDER is more like the Ono of the marine team. I dunno, maybe I'm just making baseless complaints...it just feels like once aliens get fades it pretty much game over (and for the record I'm not one of those guys who sits in base begging for HA+HMG). As well, I would say that 4 HMG+HA+W vs. 4 Fades is a pretty close battle.
It's not that fades are THAT powerful, it's just that with fades the aliens can pretty much control the map. Marines can hold back the fades but not push them back is all.
I may try and start using shotty more now that 1.04 gives marines more incentive to use it.
Also, to qualify, I still find it pretty amazing how well balanced this mod is considering both teams are so radically different from one another.
good lord, just rush the fade, and 2 guys can kill him with 1 loss. These noobs who let the fade run away to call for medpacks and weld each other when they have LA irritate me to no end. Chase down the fade, and kill him.
I kill plenty of fades the few times I don't command, and die to them as well. The key is to get 2 marines to go after the fade, and dont let him heal...
Amen Captmorgan, rush those fades! I usually kill them with the pistol more often than lmg, its more damaging from a greater distance. I want any change they can put in to make a longer game. I loved playing for hours when NS first came out, hell, I called in for 4 days of work just to play it (yes, lame, I know, but hey, why work eh?) The new changes make seige use much more strategic, but I think with the need to have someone in view or scan the target, the distance should have been left alone.
I also have to commend Legionnaire for his work demonstrating the distance differences, apparently the 150 or whatever change it was isn't very much but enough to leave engine hive alone on bast.
Trust me, I'm the first to rush after those fades. I'm not a n00b player (at least I don't <i>think</i> I am <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> ). All I'm saying is that, yes, it's possible to hold your own against some fades, but it is mighty hard to push them back. A good team of fades/lerk/gorge will EASY own a team of light marines. It just seems that there is much less give/take in the games I play than I would like.
Aliens tend to get fades WAY before marines have any similar firepower. Thus they usually lose. I'm sorry I'm not articulating this well, but the marines midgame seems to me to be weaker than the aliens midgame.
I wasn't insinuating you were a noob.. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
You are correct in that aliens are stronger then marines in most cases in mid game (2 hives 3 or 4 nodes for aliens vs. 1 hive and 3 nodes for marines) But that offsets the marines being stronger in early game. (assuming your marines can shoot of course)
Fade+umbra is sooo hard to push back, you really need to be seiging that second hive by the time they have 3 movements and 3 defensive chambers, or its all over. 1 Movement worth of upgrades you can handle, but 3 gives lerks almost unlimited umbra, and that is death for marines.
Comments
now you only do 1 portal instead of 2, and the fast phase will be alive. The difference is now the aliens have a chance, as currently, with 2 portals, the marines spawn 2x as fast, and dont have to worry about travel time. Now you will have a grace period as aliens of about 3 minutes before they can afford and get operational that 2nd portal.
Instead of IP,IP,armory,obs,phase at main, phase at hive...
now it will be
IP,armory,obs, phase at main,phase at hive.
that gives the aliens a fighting chance vs. a well executed phase rush, as marines spawn 2x faster with 2 portals, which you cannot have now and still do a real fast phase rush.
The problem with the phase rush in 1.04 will end up being you need i believe 2 more sentries to offset the lower phase gate HP's. You now need to kill the skulks faster, so therefore more sentries, or more marines hanging around there. The lower hp really nerfs the rush to kill the main hive, so while I am not totally happy with the hp change along with the cost change, I can live with it. This will give aliens the time to get their second hive and expand more to get a solid cash-flow coming in. There isnt really a whole lot I see a commander can do about that now.
I dont really think the fades needed to be nerfed, just people need to understand you have to charge a fade with at least 2 marines, and dont let him run away to heal. If you let the fade heal back up, you might as well just type kill in console. Another thing, why is it fades keep the acid rockets if you take down the second hive, but lerks lose umbra? there is a lack of consistency there I think.
As far as the seige changes go, I would prefer 1 or the other, not both. increased scan cost, and must be in sight of either marine or scan, or lower range. I think simply not allowing things to be built in the vent areas would nerf seige plenty. While on hera, seiging both hives from one spot is bad, and I can understand the desire to change that. seiging viaduct from the red room on nothing is about impossible to stop as aliens unless you get them before they have phase/sentries up in there. I dont know if there is the ability to differentuate in the HL engine between vents and other places.. *shrugs* but it would be nice.
Another change which I dont see discussed, the nodes available on the different maps is a big part of balance/unbalance. On nothing for example, if the aliens dont start in cargo bay hive, they cant get there fast enough to stop the marines from taking it, and the 3 nodes in there. If they get those 3 nodes and docking wing 1, its game over for the aliens. I think consistency in nodes/area on each map would go a long way torwards balancing the game more then any nerf on 1 particular part of the game. On nothing, there is 3 nodes in cargo bay hive, while the power silo has 2. Thus whomever claims the cargo bay first has an inherent resource advantage. Currently in 1.03 phase rush, unless the marines are awful shots, imagine the aliens start at power silo, the marines will get 5 nodes before the aliens can think of getting hive #2. Thats where the fast seiges of hive #2 come from, a resouce advantage/disadvantage. Once the marines get 4 nodes up and running, they can upgrade fairly fast, and still have money left to support offensive operations/defending your gains. I have never lost nothing as comm when my marines were able to grab and hold cargo bay initially, simply thru the resource advantage I now have over the gorge/aliens. The reverse that I have never been able to gorge my team to victory when we started anywhere but cargo bay also holds true except vs. the worst marine teams. That is a change that needs to be worked on in my opinion moreso then nerf'ing any 1 particular aspect of the game..
Fades lose Blink, which is their third weapon. Lerks lose Umbra, which is their third weapon. Acid rocket is weapon 2, just like Spikes is weapon 2 for Lerks.
Build 5 sieges in an out-of-the-way spot near a hive, without harming a single thing.. then, the aliens hanging around the hive see pretty blue waves, followed by so many shockwaves that their hive is gone before they know what hit 'em! <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
Build 5 sieges in an out-of-the-way spot near a hive, without harming a single thing.. then, the aliens hanging around the hive see pretty blue waves, followed by so many shockwaves that their hive is gone before they know what hit 'em! <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
actually that is no triumph, AT ALL, heres why:
you could do the same thing earlier, build 3 sieges, make the marines build em up to 99% and them fire em up all at same time... so really, why should you be excited about things gone waaaaaaaay worse?
Fades lose Blink, which is their third weapon. Lerks lose Umbra, which is their third weapon. Acid rocket is weapon 2, just like Spikes is weapon 2 for Lerks.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
forgot about that, you are correct.
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Great fk'in choice, an obvious one.
Rush the IP instead.
My initial thought on this patch: frustrating. You know that feeling where you feel like you're doing everything right and still somehow losing? Thats how I felt playing this game.
The phase portals are weak now. As well, it's kindof a **obscenity** to sit there waiting for that extra 10 res points. You're just SITTING there. Not as fun as having to gaurd someone while they build something... perhaps increase the build time instead of the cost (it's basically the same thing, just in a different form).
I can see the need for nerfing the phase portals, but I think the health was lowered by just a little too much. 2 skulks can kill the thing before people have a chance to respawn and get back through there. It sort of defeats the purpose of a phase gate.
Flayra if you are reading this for constructive critism here is my take. The changes to the phase gate make it so that building a turret factory first is the smarter move. Then once the fortifications are built you can build the phase gate in case fades come and attack. Before this patch people built phase gates first because their durability meant that if those building things died they had time to respawn and get back into the fight.
So basically I'll be changing my strategy to build the turret factory first, and then the phase gate. If this is closer to what you intended peoples building strat to be then cool. I personally really liked my phase first then turret fact second..
The siege change didn't come up in my game (didn't have siege long enough to notice a difference). One thing I don't understand is changing the scanner sweep to 3 rp. You've basically made the siege into a pay-to-play gun. 3 rp may not seem like much, but when you're trying to save for stuff it's a pain (we all know how annoying it is when a marine at main base asks for a medpack when they could just kill themself).
I'm sorry my post isn't more constructive...these are more just random thoughts and feelings. I'm gonna play some more and I'll post what I think as I get some more experience. Cheers.
Also, in case you were wondering, chambers built within the scanning radius of an observatory will not be shot. So no being able to plop down an observatory next to the cannon to use as an automated spotter, it needs an active scanner sweep or someone actually in sight of the target.
I have mixed feelings about this. I never liked rush tactics for either side, so I didn't mind slowing down phase gates. And sieges were somewhat obnoxious in their 'insta-death to any Gorge who happened to build anything within half a mile' feature, even though they were a very strong part of human strategy. Giving a blow to phase gates, sieges, AND infantry portals all in one fell swoop, however, is reckless in my opinion. It's like trying to diagnose a computer problem; you don't replace every part at once, you swap them out one at a time until the problem goes away so you can find the culprit. Making such a wave of changes all at once denies the possibility of pinpointing the one change that would slow down the marine rush, if such a single change fix exists.
im sure it was pritty easy as aliens already
admitadly they siege was too strong for some maps, but crippling the marine overall :/
i would be interested to see stats on what percentage of games were won by marines before the 1.04 patch let alone after it
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well i think the point of this is to balance out the game a bit. as previous people have mentioned, marines spawn in twice as fast as alien, thus giving them the advantage in the opening game.
the siege was always a problem. from what i heard, the seige range was a last minute change, which got a few of the mappers angry, cause of the dual seiging points, or easy to seige from locations.
as far as the phase gates are concerned, i did think that those were kinda cheap, and as alien, the bane of my existenence.
the fact is that it may not be one of these that is unbalancing the game but, in fact, all of them.
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with that said, i was wondering when the "select all marines" feature was being added?
i thought it was suppose to be in the next release, but i dont see that up there.
Ever since that first patch in 1.01 when fades became so much more powerful, whoever gets 2 hives first has become more and more important, not only that, but players have been finding faster and faster rush strats. I'm hoping that by nerfing a whole bunch of rushing options things will go some way to making the NS games longer again.
Currently main marine strategy revolves around stopping the aliens from getting fades. How about some incentive for marines to try and get ha and hmg asap so they can go toe to toe with the fades? This would make the mid-game a natural progression from the start-game, rather than making the mid-game the be-all and end-all of many matches played on public servers.
ANY reduction to the alien res is a good thing as atm by the time aliens have 2 hives then any decend fade player will survive at least long enough to get 44 res and so make fade as soon as they respawn.
Personally I think fades should be made weaker still as 2 fades + lurk & umbra can absolutly mash anything except a GL. Problem with GL's is a newb ALWAYS gets hold of it and goes off rambo <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo-->
It makes the upgrade paths abit confused, against good aliens you NEED that GL.
The one thing I REALLY don't like is the scan cost increase, scan does not do alot, but what it used to do WAS usefull.
Lets assume you use scan to decide which of the two alien held locations you want to attack, you scan the first one with 3 scans to check its soft (one at the hive two at the bottlenecks).. and find that its reasonably hardend but not so overly done that you can't take it. (it also isn't so built up that a gorge would've spent too much time/res building to build at the other location).
You say 'sod it' and scan the other defences with 3 scans to check its hardness and discover that its exactly the same as the first.
You've now wasted 18 res, more than a shotgun and discoverd that eather hive could be a target.
Alternativly if you just said 'sod it' and attacked with the shotgun you'd COULD end up hitting the one hive they've built def at, get slaughterd horribly and once again you've wasted a res.
If the increase was up to 2 instead of 3 the cost of scanning two hives would be 12, still a LOT more than the 6 it used to be but not the 12 increase we see now.
Basically scan was a very usefull tool for just keeping a handle on what was going on. It now is too expensive to use in that way.
BlueGhost
I have been trying to come up with a way of saying this. Well put, and this is the direction I think future patches should be heading. As it is now, the highest tech of marines (HMG+HA) just BARELY holds their own against fades. That is why there is so much emphasis on getting 2 hives right away (and why the phase gates were so important).
I would suggest making the HMG come into play later, but make the HA much less expensive/easier to get. HA would let people survive long enough to at leat be able to get some buildings up.
Anyhow..
I have been trying to come up with a way of saying this. Well put, and this is the direction I think future patches should be heading. As it is now, the highest tech of marines (HMG+HA) just BARELY holds their own against fades. That is why there is so much emphasis on getting 2 hives right away (and why the phase gates were so important).
I would suggest making the HMG come into play later, but make the HA much less expensive/easier to get. HA would let people survive long enough to at leat be able to get some buildings up.
Anyhow..<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Try playing as a Fade against a team of HA/HMG working together and welding each other.... with a phase gate nearby.
It's tough. Very tough.
Getlmemen, I give you the perfect coutner to the phase rush.
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There is one thing with the new siege - it's a great way to use the aliens chambers against them. That fade using hit-n-run, using healing chambers around the corner? Next time he ducks back, scan the chambers and watch 350 pts of siege kill him dead.
Works great with motion tracking as well .. a marine can use enemy chambers as defensive outposts .. stay around the corner, wait for the alien to get close to the buildings.. then step around the corner and watch the siege kill him, then back around the corner to let the chambers heal up ... :-)
All in all, I think the siege changes makes for a more fun game. If it makes the marines too weak, then upgrade another aspect of the marines to compensate for it - like cheaper shotguns or research.
While umbra is pretty uber, it's all a lerk really has in high level engagements. Making umbra significantly worse would just make the lerk suck.
Try playing as a Fade against a team of HA/HMG working together and welding each other.... with a phase gate nearby.
It's tough. Very tough.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
True, but in order to get to the HMG+HA stage you have to invest A LOT of res points. HGM+HA+WELDER is more like the Ono of the marine team. I dunno, maybe I'm just making baseless complaints...it just feels like once aliens get fades it pretty much game over (and for the record I'm not one of those guys who sits in base begging for HA+HMG). As well, I would say that 4 HMG+HA+W vs. 4 Fades is a pretty close battle.
It's not that fades are THAT powerful, it's just that with fades the aliens can pretty much control the map. Marines can hold back the fades but not push them back is all.
I may try and start using shotty more now that 1.04 gives marines more incentive to use it.
Also, to qualify, I still find it pretty amazing how well balanced this mod is considering both teams are so radically different from one another.
I kill plenty of fades the few times I don't command, and die to them as well. The key is to get 2 marines to go after the fade, and dont let him heal...
I also have to commend Legionnaire for his work demonstrating the distance differences, apparently the 150 or whatever change it was isn't very much but enough to leave engine hive alone on bast.
Aliens tend to get fades WAY before marines have any similar firepower. Thus they usually lose. I'm sorry I'm not articulating this well, but the marines midgame seems to me to be weaker than the aliens midgame.
You are correct in that aliens are stronger then marines in most cases in mid game (2 hives 3 or 4 nodes for aliens vs. 1 hive and 3 nodes for marines) But that offsets the marines being stronger in early game. (assuming your marines can shoot of course)
Fade+umbra is sooo hard to push back, you really need to be seiging that second hive by the time they have 3 movements and 3 defensive chambers, or its all over. 1 Movement worth of upgrades you can handle, but 3 gives lerks almost unlimited umbra, and that is death for marines.