Meet the Tyranid Zoanthrope. It is a living psychic ranged weapon. I'm not saying copy Warhammer 40K, but maybe something like this would add a good niche to the aliens that would be prudent.
Traits: -Very large target -Very slow base speed (slow like a MAC) -Floats off the ground thus doesn't make noise. -Cost 60 pres -450 HP / 150 Armour
Abilities as I imagine them:
-Light shield. Creates a convex impenetrable light barrier for itself and it's allies, about 10 metres wide. Drains energy at about 10% per second. Used to shield hives being attacked and teams moving into position for an assault. The natural tradeoff to using this strategy is that all the other aliens following this life form for protection have to slow down.
-Light beam. Imagine it as a laser-esque attack. Damages only armor/ buildings/ vehicles, but at an extremely fast rate. Can target an ally to give a nano-shield like effect. (Not cumulative, you either have it or you don't) Drains energy very rapidly, think 25% per second.
-Researchable upgrade: Terror Screech. Knocks down all nearby marines in a very large area. (Like stomp, but a huge PBAoE) Uses <u>all</u> your energy no matter how much you have, must have at least 50% energy to use it. Leaves you with 25% remaining energy if you have adrenaline.
-Researchable upgrade: Teleport. Click the mini map to go literally anywhere on the map in an instant. Leaves you at 50% energy.
I find this to be an exciting prospect, as it would be the ultimate teamwork machine. It can literally do nothing on it's own, but can support in many situations. The very last ability is a double-edged sword, as if you teleport to a structure being attacked alone, you will die if nobody helps you. You should definitely be able to stall for a while though.
Anyway, just brainstorming. I do feel aliens need a 6th life form. And the thing I think they need is heavy support. Something that has huge impact but never on it's own.
Editor's note: To reflect this life form, a boost in survivability to the Exo would be a good idea, as this life form would be a natural predator towards them.
<!--quoteo(post=2034719:date=Nov 25 2012, 06:21 PM:name=d0ped0g)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (d0ped0g @ Nov 25 2012, 06:21 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2034719"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The problem lies with inventing a lifeform that's not too similar to any of the existing ones. There's already a tank (onos). A weak slow support/builder unit (gorge). A base lifeform - fragile, fast, meelee unit (skulk). An assassin type class that requires more sneaky hit and run play (fade). A fast flying unit that thrives on poison and ranged attacks (lerk).
Inventing something else might run the risk of having something too similar to the lifeforms already there. Chances are it would end up being too much like a cross between a gorge and a skulk. Or a lerk and a fade. Or something like that.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Do we <b>need </b>a 6th life form? No. What we <b>need </b>is proper balance of what we got. Would it be cool to have more life forms? Yes. No they are not necessary.
To be honest, it's pretty difficult to justify the expense and time of creating a new alien unit (all the concept art, modelling, animation etc.) simply on the basis that the OP has a vague sense of unease about the alien team.
What, praytell, will this 6th lifeform actually do? Not just in vague terms of filling in the hypothetical gaps between lifeforms.
Meet the Tyranid Zoanthrope. It is a living psychic ranged weapon. I'm not saying copy Warhammer 40K, but maybe something like this would add a good niche to the aliens that would be prudent.
-Light shield. Creates a convex impenetrable light barrier for itself and it's allies, about 10 metres wide. Drains energy at about 10% per second. Used to shield hives being attacked and teams moving into position for an assault. The natural tradeoff to using this strategy is that all the other aliens following this life form for protection have to slow down.
-Light beam. Imagine it as a laser-esque attack. Damages only armor/ buildings/ vehicles, but at an extremely fast rate. Can target an ally to give a nano-shield like effect. (Not cumulative, you either have it or you don't) Drains energy very rapidly, think 25% per second.
-Researchable upgrade: Terror Screech. Knocks down all nearby marines in a very large area. (Like stomp, but a huge PBAoE) Uses <u>all</u> your energy no matter how much you have, must have at least 50% energy to use it. Leaves you with 25% remaining energy if you have adrenaline.
-Researchable upgrade: Teleport. Click the mini map to go literally anywhere on the map in an instant. Leaves you at 50% energy.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> > Umbra > Umbra/Spikes > Stomp (and an even more annoyingly overpowered variant at that) > Blink
So this concept is really just a bunch of other things already in the game thrown together. The lifeform's role appears to be support, like the Lerk, but why it has the ability to completely remove control from enemy players and teleport around the map at will makes no sense at all.
<!--quoteo(post=2034758:date=Nov 25 2012, 07:28 PM:name=Techercizer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Techercizer @ Nov 25 2012, 07:28 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2034758"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->> Umbra > Umbra/Spikes > Stomp (and an even more annoyingly overpowered variant at that) > Blink
So this concept is really just a bunch of other things already in the game thrown together. The lifeform's role appears to be support, like the Lerk, but why it has the ability to completely remove control from enemy players and teleport around the map at will makes no sense at all.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You made an incredibly spastic stretch of your imagination to refute a suggestion with 4 lies/ obvious feigned ignorance. Try to at least pretend to read things, until then I won't bother lowering myself to your level in any discussion.
The only legitimate point you have is stomp being similar which I already said it was. The obvious tradeoff is in the rest of the post you didn't read or just chose to ignore.
<!--coloro:#FF8C00--><span style="color:#FF8C00"><!--/coloro-->*snip* That was unnecessarily rude & aggressive - Mouse<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
Introduce focus as a second hive upgrade after blink (get rid of vortex/fix it so it is useful on 3 hives). Would keep early game nearly identical with how it is but will make fades/lerks/skulks much more viable in mid and late game while not adjusting dps but rather play style.
Honestly I kind of like that fades are brittle, they shouldn't be able to take 4-5 shotgun shots. But they absolutely NEED to do more damage in the late game to be viable.
No, we don't need a 6th lifeform. Just need a few tweaks.
<!--quoteo(post=2034768:date=Nov 25 2012, 07:42 PM:name=PsympleJester)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (PsympleJester @ Nov 25 2012, 07:42 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2034768"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I totally endorse ripping of Games Workshop trademarked material and splicing into Natural Selection two... Well done on being the most stupid person 2012.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--coloro:orange--><span style="color:orange"><!--/coloro-->--snip-- Be nice. --Zaggy<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
Because nobody ever used existing material to visualize what they were talking about, even if they never intended to copy that exact thing.
In fact, I can guarantee that Unknown Wolds THEMSELVES have awareness towards Warhammer 40K and the movie "Aliens", otherwise it wouldn't be so close to that material without being a ripoff. If you've ever been part of a creative process you would know.
<!--quoteo(post=2034732:date=Nov 26 2012, 02:32 AM:name=Metal Handkerchief)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Metal Handkerchief @ Nov 26 2012, 02:32 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2034732"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Abilities as I imagine them:
-Light shield. Creates a convex impenetrable light barrier for itself and it's allies, about 10 metres wide. Drains energy at about 10% per second. Used to shield hives being attacked and teams moving into position for an assault. The natural tradeoff to using this strategy is that all the other aliens following this life form for protection have to slow down.
-Light beam. Imagine it as a laser-esque attack. Damages only armor/ buildings/ vehicles, but at an extremely fast rate. Can target an ally to give a nano-shield like effect. (Not cumulative, you either have it or you don't) Drains energy very rapidly, think 25% per second.
-Researchable upgrade: Terror Screech. Knocks down all nearby marines in a very large area. (Like stomp, but a huge PBAoE) Uses <u>all</u> your energy no matter how much you have, must have at least 50% energy to use it. Leaves you with 25% remaining energy if you have adrenaline.
-Researchable upgrade: Teleport. Click the mini map to go literally anywhere on the map in an instant. Leaves you at 50% energy.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well unless your the guy who originally created the zoanthrope then those are not the abilities as you imagine, those are the abilities as Games Workshop Imagined them. I am sorry mr "I dont want to copy the Zoanthrope, I just want it to have the exact same abilities and have a nice picture of the zoanthrope above my suggestion."
<!--coloro:orange--><span style="color:orange"><!--/coloro-->--snip-- Be nice. --Zaggy<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
<!--quoteo(post=2034790:date=Nov 25 2012, 08:08 PM:name=PsympleJester)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (PsympleJester @ Nov 25 2012, 08:08 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2034790"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Well unless your the guy who originally created the zoanthrope then those are not the abilities as you imagine, those are the abilities as Games Workshop Imagined them. I am sorry mr "I dont want to copy the Zoanthrope, I just want it to have the exact same abilities and have a nice picture of the zoanthrope above my suggestion."
Lolololol, your stupid award is well earned.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You have obviously never played 40K. Apart from the "laser-esque" attack I mentioned, the Zoanthrope can do none of those things. Sure, it has access to an ability called "Terror" but that has nothing to do with knocking down/ shockwaving and is purely a leadership-breaking move to make people flee. The addition of the ranged anti armor attack is simply because it has often come up in threads here that aliens lack a similar unit to the Marine's MAC. This would be it. And the Zoanthrope can damage troops, the imaginary life form I'm suggesting would not.
<!--quoteo(post=2034732:date=Nov 25 2012, 09:32 PM:name=Metal Handkerchief)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Metal Handkerchief @ Nov 25 2012, 09:32 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2034732"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I bet you feel silly now lmao j/k<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't really feel that silly. As mentioned by the other post (the one mentioning umbra, stomp etc), Your suggested class has no unique abilities apart from teleport (unless you count blink but I don't really).
In retrospect I do think there is a place for a 'magic type' class amongst the rest of the alien lifeforms. Although the one you suggested doesn't really fit that role. I would imagine something that has a large arsenal of highly situational abilities like vortex (they should remove it from the fade in this case).
I never said it was impossible to create a new lifeform. What I was trying to say was that it would be difficult to introduce it and have it be unique (i.e. no crossover on the general roles of other classes in the game and their abilities) and balanced. I do think it would be interesting to see some modders attempt this (make a mod with a new alien lifeform) rather than introduce it into the actual game, if only because I'm curious to see how well a new lifeform would fit into the current gameplay.
<!--coloro:#FFC0CB--><span style="color:#FFC0CB"><!--/coloro-->While not strictly necessary, it would be fun to see a new alien lifeform. It would have to be something with a unique role however.
Perhaps a scorpian that hovars without flapping? I'm thinking a slow, floating spellcaster type unit like the zerg queen from SC1 maybe. I should draw up some proper concepts lol...<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
<!--quoteo(post=2034793:date=Nov 25 2012, 11:14 PM:name=Metal Handkerchief)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Metal Handkerchief @ Nov 25 2012, 11:14 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2034793"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The addition of the ranged anti armor attack is simply because it has often come up in threads here that aliens lack a similar unit to the Marine's MAC. This would be it. And the Zoanthrope can damage troops, the imaginary life form I'm suggesting would not.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Marines MAC has a ranged anti-armour attack? Please, tell me more...
Regardless, if you're suggesting something that fires long range in a straight line like spikes (as opposed to lobbing a short distance), and damages armor at a fast rate, then that is seriously OP.
Lots of ideas come up in the forums, not all of them are good.
<!--quoteo(post=2034813:date=Nov 25 2012, 10:44 PM:name=Kallistrate)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kallistrate @ Nov 25 2012, 10:44 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2034813"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--coloro:#FFC0CB--><span style="color:#FFC0CB"><!--/coloro-->While not strictly necessary, it would be fun to see a new alien lifeform. It would have to be something with a unique role however.
Perhaps a scorpian that hovars without flapping? I'm thinking a slow, floating spellcaster type unit like the zerg queen from SC1 maybe. I should draw up some proper concepts lol...<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I don't want to hamper your creativity, but I'm under the impression that the Kham is supposed to be the Aliens' caster.
<!--quoteo(post=2034819:date=Nov 26 2012, 02:52 PM:name=Techercizer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Techercizer @ Nov 26 2012, 02:52 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2034819"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't want to hamper your creativity, but I'm under the impression that the Kham is supposed to be the Aliens' caster.
Look forward to seeing what you come up with.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--coloro:#FFC0CB--><span style="color:#FFC0CB"><!--/coloro-->This is true, but as far as lifeforms in the field it's the only role that comes to mind. Anyway, if I do this it will mostly be for fun anyway. Would take a lot of serious thought to flesh out an idea that could actually be implemented. lol<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
Would be interesting to see another lifeform to be sure. And I think if done slowly with beta testing and other things, it could be done without breaking either high rank play or pubs.
That said, there's no way in heck they can do that right now or even in the foreseeable future. It makes more sense to work on and tweak what's already here, rather than putting time and money into a new lifeform. That and having a new lifeform up their sleeve would be a great way to attract players that are growing bored back into the game.
So could we see another lifeform, maybe. Maybe. Will we see one anytime soon. Not a chance.
Wow this thread is really making some people angry. Let's try to have a constructive discussion. Why insult people if you don't agree with their opinions?
To answer the OP's question: No, we can not agree, and I am in the no-6th-lifeform camp.
I think the lifeform hierarchy is fine as it is. As others have said, it just needs to settle into a balanced state. It's still a little far away from being in a good place, but aside from a few new abilities that we will be seeing down the road, no new pieces need to be thrown into the already complex puzzle that is alien balance/scaling.
Technically Drifters could be considered the 6th lifeform, and they serve more of a support role than Lerks do. They are just under utilized because the vast majority of players wouldn't know what to do with a Drifter if they had one, let alone take on the responsibility of commanding. So that's an issue that lies outside of the game design.
<b>The only idea that I'll throw out there is Babblers. We know UWE definitely has plans to put them in the game, considering they have already done concept art. I could see them taking on the role of cannon fodder so that skulks don't have to.
Here's how I imagine them:
- Placed by the Khammander - Very low res cost, maybe 1-2 - When dropped, have a short delay before becoming 'active.' They would have a burrowing out of the ground animation - Once active, they will attack any enemies in line of sight - Damage/HP/Armor/Speed values would be roughly the same as skulks, maybe lower. - One would last 10-20 seconds, then die off - Maximum of 5 at a time or some limit similar to Drifters</b>
These, if used right, would give skulks more of a chance as marines will be forced to shoot at the encroaching babblers, and would also give the Khamm something more useful to do throughout the game, being the rough equivalent of med/ammo drops.
Khaam is supposed to be a caster? Maybe, if he didn't have to rely on tons of buildings that only have area-effect "spells". In terms of commander abilities and oversight the Khaam is way, way behind marines. Marine commander abilities are in absolutely no way tied to the power grid, whereas the Khaam's two abilities - bone wall and nutrient mist - only work on infestation. He feels more like a defensive manager than a caster. Having to go to crags and trigger their heal cloud manually just reeks of busywork they put in because they had no idea what else to do with an alien commander.
A problem endemic to the alien team is that they (literally) cannot afford disposable units. Marines can afford to be disposable and overextend themselves since they can not only pick up dropped guns, but the comm can always watch their back with medspam, and their most basic unit is pretty strong throughout the whole game. Not helping matters is that the best combination in the game - JP+shotgun - cost almost nothing.
Personally I think the aliens are punished too much for dying. A 50-res lifeform, even if it were a direct combat unit, is a LOT of pres. Direct combat means putting yourself in danger, which means risk of death. It's already common to see Onos running away after taking only 50% damage.
In a general sense, the pres cost is the #1 limiter of the game's pacing. The 75 pres Onos is there stop the Onos from showing up until enough time has passed to earn 75 pres, right? The problem is, once you've invested 50, 60, 75, 80, whatever pres into a lifeform, *you cannot lose that lifeform* since it represents such a huge timesink. Additionally, this means that an unfairly large amount of map control is required. The late-game Onos (not 6 minute) rush is a result of aliens already controlling the map enough that they can all easily afford Onos at once.
While a midgame combat unit could be viable, I think the biggest concern is that it would (as a midgame unit) have to cost around 50 pres, which means people aren't going to want to lose it, or put into harms way, or risk death, which are all things a combat unit should be doing.
<!--quoteo(post=2034852:date=Nov 25 2012, 11:32 PM:name=Bad Mojo)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bad Mojo @ Nov 25 2012, 11:32 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2034852"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Wow this thread is really making some people angry. Let's try to have a constructive discussion. Why insult people if you don't agree with their opinions?
To answer the OP's question: No, we can not agree, and I am in the no-6th-lifeform camp.
I think the lifeform hierarchy is fine as it is. As others have said, it just needs to settle into a balanced state. It's still a little far away from being in a good place, but aside from a few new abilities that we will be seeing down the road, no new pieces need to be thrown into the already complex puzzle that is alien balance/scaling.
Technically Drifters could be considered the 6th lifeform, and they serve more of a support role than Lerks do. They are just under utilized because the vast majority of players wouldn't know what to do with a Drifter if they had one, let alone take on the responsibility of commanding. So that's an issue that lies outside of the game design.
<b>The only idea that I'll throw out there is Babblers. We know UWE definitely has plans to put them in the game, considering they have already done concept art. I could see them taking on the role of cannon fodder so that skulks don't have to.
Here's how I imagine them:
- Placed by the Khammander - Very low res cost, maybe 1-2 - When dropped, have a short delay before becoming 'active.' They would have a burrowing out of the ground animation - Once active, they will attack any enemies in line of sight - Damage/HP/Armor/Speed values would be roughly the same as skulks, maybe lower. - One would last 10-20 seconds, then die off - Maximum of 5 at a time or some limit similar to Drifters</b>
These, if used right, would give skulks more of a chance as marines will be forced to shoot at the encroaching babblers, and would also give the Khamm something more useful to do throughout the game, being the rough equivalent of med/ammo drops.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That sounds pretty fun; it'd be really fun if they shared the limit, but the drifter limit increases with hives right now. I'd like to see the Kham limited to 5 AI units (drifters or babblers) and unlike Marines, have no way to expand that cap; that offers the choice between drifters for scouting (available at hive 1) or babblers for defending (available at hive 2). The cost could also be raised and the lifespan raised significantly to reduce spam and balance the mechanic.
<!--quoteo(post=2034818:date=Nov 25 2012, 08:51 PM:name=d0ped0g)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (d0ped0g @ Nov 25 2012, 08:51 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2034818"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Marines MAC has a ranged anti-armour attack? Please, tell me more...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I was thinking of ARCs (?) actually, always get them mixed up. Not about the ranged anti-armor, but the artillery utility in general. On a slow-moving destined-to-die-if-alone lifeform that provides and requires mutual protection, it could spice things up.
The suggestion I made is 90% fluff anyway, the most important part is the "living riot shield" function and the ranged anti-armour function. I think that is a function that would "liven up" the alien game play. Basically, move the Onos frontal armour that was once a thing, on to a different unit, that protects others until they get to their destination.
I've mentioned this before so I'll mention it again, have the skulk parasite be upgradable that when a marine dies with a parasite active on him, the skulk can infest the body and become an infested marine with the same or different abilities than normal marines. Maybe restrict the weapons carried to just basic infested rifles where ammo is replaced by energy and give a few additional advantages and disadvantages, like regen but no sprint. I guess skulks can benefit from the scalability of marines in this manner, like keep the damage upgrades but get rid of armor upgrades. Thats what carapace is for. Basically this infested marine provides heavier ranged firepower than the lerk, but is slower and not as easy to get.
<!--quoteo(post=2034931:date=Nov 26 2012, 07:51 AM:name=Keldorn)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Keldorn @ Nov 26 2012, 07:51 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2034931"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I've mentioned this before so I'll mention it again, have the skulk parasite be upgradable that when a marine dies with a parasite active on him, the skulk can infest the body and become an infested marine with the same or different abilities than normal marines. Maybe restrict the weapons carried to just basic infested rifles where ammo is replaced by energy and give a few additional advantages and disadvantages, like regen but no sprint. I guess skulks can benefit from the scalability of marines in this manner, like keep the damage upgrades but get rid of armor upgrades. Thats what carapace is for. Basically this infested marine provides heavier ranged firepower than the lerk, but is slower and not as easy to get.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It would have to either be much harder to get or (better solution imo) cost pres. You have the option when you kill a parasited marine to spend 10-30 pres (depending on how strong UWE made them) and morph that marine into an infested marine. Pure starcraft ripoff but who cares.
<!--quoteo(post=2034745:date=Nov 26 2012, 04:07 AM:name=james888)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (james888 @ Nov 26 2012, 04:07 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2034745"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Do we <b>need </b>a 6th life form? No. What we <b>need </b>is proper balance of what we got. Would it be cool to have more life forms? Yes. No they are not necessary.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Agreed with that.
Something you need to remember when talking about lifeforms cost and timing is that no res when dead is still in game, and that it messes up costs. We first need no res when dead to be removed before discussing lifeforms costs and such.
Maybe an open spot would be to have some kind of shotgun counter. Currently the shotgun destroys everything, so it wouldn't be too problematic if aliens had a lifeform that can tank a few shotguns shots. Maybe a tank skulk with low damage output, so that having too many would be bad. To make it more skilled based it could use the bone shield thing that onos?gorge? was planned to have, it would open quickly when pressing mouse 2 or shift key, so that you can micro it against a single marine: the marine shotgun you, you block it with your shield, you get a quick bite during the shotgun cool-down, block the second shot, etc. It would cover only the front, so that marines can counter you by flanks and such. It would also cover some area so that skulks can hide behind you. It's just a random idea though, I didn't really put much thoughts into it.
Here's an idea. How about instead of adding a completely new lifeform we introduce two Fade variants to choose from.
1. Celerity Fade: - mostly identical to the current Fade - slightly increased damage against Marines - no Vortex - fast, high damage but fragile for its cost
2. Carapace Fade - increased HP and armor - no Blink - increased Shadow Step cost (~25 energy) - assault unit, still considerably mobile and can take punishment - slightly modified model with additional carapace
The second Fade type would be selectable just like other lifeforms in the mutation menu. It would be much tougher with something around 450 HP and 100 (200 with carapace) armor (2 more shotgun hits to kill). This would be a good replacement for Skulks as a mid-game frontline combat unit against upgraded marines without making the classic Fade overpowered and with minimal work effort from UWE.
<!--quoteo(post=2034944:date=Nov 26 2012, 10:29 AM:name=DanielD)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (DanielD @ Nov 26 2012, 10:29 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2034944"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It would have to either be much harder to get or (better solution imo) cost pres. You have the option when you kill a parasited marine to spend 10-30 pres (depending on how strong UWE made them) and morph that marine into an infested marine. Pure starcraft ripoff but who cares.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Comments
Regardless:
<img src="http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m490322_99060106041_TyranidZoanthropeMain_445x319.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
Meet the Tyranid Zoanthrope. It is a living psychic ranged weapon. I'm not saying copy Warhammer 40K, but maybe something like this would add a good niche to the aliens that would be prudent.
Traits:
-Very large target
-Very slow base speed (slow like a MAC)
-Floats off the ground thus doesn't make noise.
-Cost 60 pres
-450 HP / 150 Armour
Abilities as I imagine them:
-Light shield. Creates a convex impenetrable light barrier for itself and it's allies, about 10 metres wide. Drains energy at about 10% per second. Used to shield hives being attacked and teams moving into position for an assault. The natural tradeoff to using this strategy is that all the other aliens following this life form for protection have to slow down.
-Light beam. Imagine it as a laser-esque attack. Damages only armor/ buildings/ vehicles, but at an extremely fast rate. Can target an ally to give a nano-shield like effect. (Not cumulative, you either have it or you don't) Drains energy very rapidly, think 25% per second.
-Researchable upgrade: Terror Screech. Knocks down all nearby marines in a very large area. (Like stomp, but a huge PBAoE) Uses <u>all</u> your energy no matter how much you have, must have at least 50% energy to use it. Leaves you with 25% remaining energy if you have adrenaline.
-Researchable upgrade: Teleport. Click the mini map to go literally anywhere on the map in an instant. Leaves you at 50% energy.
I find this to be an exciting prospect, as it would be the ultimate teamwork machine. It can literally do nothing on it's own, but can support in many situations. The very last ability is a double-edged sword, as if you teleport to a structure being attacked alone, you will die if nobody helps you. You should definitely be able to stall for a while though.
Anyway, just brainstorming. I do feel aliens need a 6th life form. And the thing I think they need is heavy support. Something that has huge impact but never on it's own.
Editor's note: To reflect this life form, a boost in survivability to the Exo would be a good idea, as this life form would be a natural predator towards them.
<!--quoteo(post=2034719:date=Nov 25 2012, 06:21 PM:name=d0ped0g)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (d0ped0g @ Nov 25 2012, 06:21 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2034719"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The problem lies with inventing a lifeform that's not too similar to any of the existing ones. There's already a tank (onos). A weak slow support/builder unit (gorge). A base lifeform - fragile, fast, meelee unit (skulk). An assassin type class that requires more sneaky hit and run play (fade). A fast flying unit that thrives on poison and ranged attacks (lerk).
Inventing something else might run the risk of having something too similar to the lifeforms already there. Chances are it would end up being too much like a cross between a gorge and a skulk. Or a lerk and a fade. Or something like that.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I bet you feel silly now lmao j/k
What, praytell, will this 6th lifeform actually do? Not just in vague terms of filling in the hypothetical gaps between lifeforms.
Regardless:
<img src="http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m490322_99060106041_TyranidZoanthropeMain_445x319.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
Meet the Tyranid Zoanthrope. It is a living psychic ranged weapon. I'm not saying copy Warhammer 40K, but maybe something like this would add a good niche to the aliens that would be prudent.
-Light shield. Creates a convex impenetrable light barrier for itself and it's allies, about 10 metres wide. Drains energy at about 10% per second. Used to shield hives being attacked and teams moving into position for an assault. The natural tradeoff to using this strategy is that all the other aliens following this life form for protection have to slow down.
-Light beam. Imagine it as a laser-esque attack. Damages only armor/ buildings/ vehicles, but at an extremely fast rate. Can target an ally to give a nano-shield like effect. (Not cumulative, you either have it or you don't) Drains energy very rapidly, think 25% per second.
-Researchable upgrade: Terror Screech. Knocks down all nearby marines in a very large area. (Like stomp, but a huge PBAoE) Uses <u>all</u> your energy no matter how much you have, must have at least 50% energy to use it. Leaves you with 25% remaining energy if you have adrenaline.
-Researchable upgrade: Teleport. Click the mini map to go literally anywhere on the map in an instant. Leaves you at 50% energy.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
> Umbra
> Umbra/Spikes
> Stomp (and an even more annoyingly overpowered variant at that)
> Blink
So this concept is really just a bunch of other things already in the game thrown together. The lifeform's role appears to be support, like the Lerk, but why it has the ability to completely remove control from enemy players and teleport around the map at will makes no sense at all.
> Umbra/Spikes
> Stomp (and an even more annoyingly overpowered variant at that)
> Blink
So this concept is really just a bunch of other things already in the game thrown together. The lifeform's role appears to be support, like the Lerk, but why it has the ability to completely remove control from enemy players and teleport around the map at will makes no sense at all.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You made an incredibly spastic stretch of your imagination to refute a suggestion with 4 lies/ obvious feigned ignorance. Try to at least pretend to read things, until then I won't bother lowering myself to your level in any discussion.
The only legitimate point you have is stomp being similar which I already said it was. The obvious tradeoff is in the rest of the post you didn't read or just chose to ignore.
That was unnecessarily rude & aggressive
- Mouse<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
Honestly I kind of like that fades are brittle, they shouldn't be able to take 4-5 shotgun shots. But they absolutely NEED to do more damage in the late game to be viable.
No, we don't need a 6th lifeform. Just need a few tweaks.
Well done on being the most stupid person 2012.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=2034732:date=Nov 25 2012, 06:32 PM:name=Metal Handkerchief)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Metal Handkerchief @ Nov 25 2012, 06:32 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2034732"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm not saying copy Warhammer 40K<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--coloro:orange--><span style="color:orange"><!--/coloro-->--snip--
Be nice. --Zaggy<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
Because nobody ever used existing material to visualize what they were talking about, even if they never intended to copy that exact thing.
In fact, I can guarantee that Unknown Wolds THEMSELVES have awareness towards Warhammer 40K and the movie "Aliens", otherwise it wouldn't be so close to that material without being a ripoff. If you've ever been part of a creative process you would know.
-Light shield. Creates a convex impenetrable light barrier for itself and it's allies, about 10 metres wide. Drains energy at about 10% per second. Used to shield hives being attacked and teams moving into position for an assault. The natural tradeoff to using this strategy is that all the other aliens following this life form for protection have to slow down.
-Light beam. Imagine it as a laser-esque attack. Damages only armor/ buildings/ vehicles, but at an extremely fast rate. Can target an ally to give a nano-shield like effect. (Not cumulative, you either have it or you don't) Drains energy very rapidly, think 25% per second.
-Researchable upgrade: Terror Screech. Knocks down all nearby marines in a very large area. (Like stomp, but a huge PBAoE) Uses <u>all</u> your energy no matter how much you have, must have at least 50% energy to use it. Leaves you with 25% remaining energy if you have adrenaline.
-Researchable upgrade: Teleport. Click the mini map to go literally anywhere on the map in an instant. Leaves you at 50% energy.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well unless your the guy who originally created the zoanthrope then those are not the abilities as you imagine, those are the abilities as Games Workshop Imagined them. I am sorry mr "I dont want to copy the Zoanthrope, I just want it to have the exact same abilities and have a nice picture of the zoanthrope above my suggestion."
<!--coloro:orange--><span style="color:orange"><!--/coloro-->--snip--
Be nice. --Zaggy<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
Lolololol, your stupid award is well earned.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You have obviously never played 40K. Apart from the "laser-esque" attack I mentioned, the Zoanthrope can do none of those things. Sure, it has access to an ability called "Terror" but that has nothing to do with knocking down/ shockwaving and is purely a leadership-breaking move to make people flee. The addition of the ranged anti armor attack is simply because it has often come up in threads here that aliens lack a similar unit to the Marine's MAC. This would be it. And the Zoanthrope can damage troops, the imaginary life form I'm suggesting would not.
You're trying too hard man.
I don't really feel that silly. As mentioned by the other post (the one mentioning umbra, stomp etc), Your suggested class has no unique abilities apart from teleport (unless you count blink but I don't really).
In retrospect I do think there is a place for a 'magic type' class amongst the rest of the alien lifeforms. Although the one you suggested doesn't really fit that role. I would imagine something that has a large arsenal of highly situational abilities like vortex (they should remove it from the fade in this case).
I never said it was impossible to create a new lifeform. What I was trying to say was that it would be difficult to introduce it and have it be unique (i.e. no crossover on the general roles of other classes in the game and their abilities) and balanced. I do think it would be interesting to see some modders attempt this (make a mod with a new alien lifeform) rather than introduce it into the actual game, if only because I'm curious to see how well a new lifeform would fit into the current gameplay.
Perhaps a scorpian that hovars without flapping? I'm thinking a slow, floating spellcaster type unit like the zerg queen from SC1 maybe. I should draw up some proper concepts lol...<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
Marines MAC has a ranged anti-armour attack? Please, tell me more...
Regardless, if you're suggesting something that fires long range in a straight line like spikes (as opposed to lobbing a short distance), and damages armor at a fast rate, then that is seriously OP.
Lots of ideas come up in the forums, not all of them are good.
Perhaps a scorpian that hovars without flapping? I'm thinking a slow, floating spellcaster type unit like the zerg queen from SC1 maybe. I should draw up some proper concepts lol...<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't want to hamper your creativity, but I'm under the impression that the Kham is supposed to be the Aliens' caster.
Look forward to seeing what you come up with.
Look forward to seeing what you come up with.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--coloro:#FFC0CB--><span style="color:#FFC0CB"><!--/coloro-->This is true, but as far as lifeforms in the field it's the only role that comes to mind. Anyway, if I do this it will mostly be for fun anyway. Would take a lot of serious thought to flesh out an idea that could actually be implemented. lol<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
That said, there's no way in heck they can do that right now or even in the foreseeable future. It makes more sense to work on and tweak what's already here, rather than putting time and money into a new lifeform. That and having a new lifeform up their sleeve would be a great way to attract players that are growing bored back into the game.
So could we see another lifeform, maybe. Maybe. Will we see one anytime soon. Not a chance.
To answer the OP's question: No, we can not agree, and I am in the no-6th-lifeform camp.
I think the lifeform hierarchy is fine as it is. As others have said, it just needs to settle into a balanced state. It's still a little far away from being in a good place, but aside from a few new abilities that we will be seeing down the road, no new pieces need to be thrown into the already complex puzzle that is alien balance/scaling.
Technically Drifters could be considered the 6th lifeform, and they serve more of a support role than Lerks do. They are just under utilized because the vast majority of players wouldn't know what to do with a Drifter if they had one, let alone take on the responsibility of commanding. So that's an issue that lies outside of the game design.
<b>The only idea that I'll throw out there is Babblers. We know UWE definitely has plans to put them in the game, considering they have already done concept art. I could see them taking on the role of cannon fodder so that skulks don't have to.
Here's how I imagine them:
- Placed by the Khammander
- Very low res cost, maybe 1-2
- When dropped, have a short delay before becoming 'active.' They would have a burrowing out of the ground animation
- Once active, they will attack any enemies in line of sight
- Damage/HP/Armor/Speed values would be roughly the same as skulks, maybe lower.
- One would last 10-20 seconds, then die off
- Maximum of 5 at a time or some limit similar to Drifters</b>
These, if used right, would give skulks more of a chance as marines will be forced to shoot at the encroaching babblers, and would also give the Khamm something more useful to do throughout the game, being the rough equivalent of med/ammo drops.
A problem endemic to the alien team is that they (literally) cannot afford disposable units. Marines can afford to be disposable and overextend themselves since they can not only pick up dropped guns, but the comm can always watch their back with medspam, and their most basic unit is pretty strong throughout the whole game. Not helping matters is that the best combination in the game - JP+shotgun - cost almost nothing.
Personally I think the aliens are punished too much for dying. A 50-res lifeform, even if it were a direct combat unit, is a LOT of pres. Direct combat means putting yourself in danger, which means risk of death. It's already common to see Onos running away after taking only 50% damage.
In a general sense, the pres cost is the #1 limiter of the game's pacing. The 75 pres Onos is there stop the Onos from showing up until enough time has passed to earn 75 pres, right? The problem is, once you've invested 50, 60, 75, 80, whatever pres into a lifeform, *you cannot lose that lifeform* since it represents such a huge timesink. Additionally, this means that an unfairly large amount of map control is required. The late-game Onos (not 6 minute) rush is a result of aliens already controlling the map enough that they can all easily afford Onos at once.
While a midgame combat unit could be viable, I think the biggest concern is that it would (as a midgame unit) have to cost around 50 pres, which means people aren't going to want to lose it, or put into harms way, or risk death, which are all things a combat unit should be doing.
To answer the OP's question: No, we can not agree, and I am in the no-6th-lifeform camp.
I think the lifeform hierarchy is fine as it is. As others have said, it just needs to settle into a balanced state. It's still a little far away from being in a good place, but aside from a few new abilities that we will be seeing down the road, no new pieces need to be thrown into the already complex puzzle that is alien balance/scaling.
Technically Drifters could be considered the 6th lifeform, and they serve more of a support role than Lerks do. They are just under utilized because the vast majority of players wouldn't know what to do with a Drifter if they had one, let alone take on the responsibility of commanding. So that's an issue that lies outside of the game design.
<b>The only idea that I'll throw out there is Babblers. We know UWE definitely has plans to put them in the game, considering they have already done concept art. I could see them taking on the role of cannon fodder so that skulks don't have to.
Here's how I imagine them:
- Placed by the Khammander
- Very low res cost, maybe 1-2
- When dropped, have a short delay before becoming 'active.' They would have a burrowing out of the ground animation
- Once active, they will attack any enemies in line of sight
- Damage/HP/Armor/Speed values would be roughly the same as skulks, maybe lower.
- One would last 10-20 seconds, then die off
- Maximum of 5 at a time or some limit similar to Drifters</b>
These, if used right, would give skulks more of a chance as marines will be forced to shoot at the encroaching babblers, and would also give the Khamm something more useful to do throughout the game, being the rough equivalent of med/ammo drops.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That sounds pretty fun; it'd be really fun if they shared the limit, but the drifter limit increases with hives right now. I'd like to see the Kham limited to 5 AI units (drifters or babblers) and unlike Marines, have no way to expand that cap; that offers the choice between drifters for scouting (available at hive 1) or babblers for defending (available at hive 2). The cost could also be raised and the lifespan raised significantly to reduce spam and balance the mechanic.
I was thinking of ARCs (?) actually, always get them mixed up. Not about the ranged anti-armor, but the artillery utility in general. On a slow-moving destined-to-die-if-alone lifeform that provides and requires mutual protection, it could spice things up.
The suggestion I made is 90% fluff anyway, the most important part is the "living riot shield" function and the ranged anti-armour function. I think that is a function that would "liven up" the alien game play. Basically, move the Onos frontal armour that was once a thing, on to a different unit, that protects others until they get to their destination.
It would have to either be much harder to get or (better solution imo) cost pres. You have the option when you kill a parasited marine to spend 10-30 pres (depending on how strong UWE made them) and morph that marine into an infested marine. Pure starcraft ripoff but who cares.
Agreed with that.
Something you need to remember when talking about lifeforms cost and timing is that no res when dead is still in game, and that it messes up costs. We first need no res when dead to be removed before discussing lifeforms costs and such.
Maybe an open spot would be to have some kind of shotgun counter. Currently the shotgun destroys everything, so it wouldn't be too problematic if aliens had a lifeform that can tank a few shotguns shots. Maybe a tank skulk with low damage output, so that having too many would be bad. To make it more skilled based it could use the bone shield thing that onos?gorge? was planned to have, it would open quickly when pressing mouse 2 or shift key, so that you can micro it against a single marine: the marine shotgun you, you block it with your shield, you get a quick bite during the shotgun cool-down, block the second shot, etc. It would cover only the front, so that marines can counter you by flanks and such. It would also cover some area so that skulks can hide behind you. It's just a random idea though, I didn't really put much thoughts into it.
1. Celerity Fade:
- mostly identical to the current Fade
- slightly increased damage against Marines
- no Vortex
- fast, high damage but fragile for its cost
2. Carapace Fade
- increased HP and armor
- no Blink
- increased Shadow Step cost (~25 energy)
- assault unit, still considerably mobile and can take punishment
- slightly modified model with additional carapace
The second Fade type would be selectable just like other lifeforms in the mutation menu. It would be much tougher with something around 450 HP and 100 (200 with carapace) armor (2 more shotgun hits to kill). This would be a good replacement for Skulks as a mid-game frontline combat unit against upgraded marines without making the classic Fade overpowered and with minimal work effort from UWE.
That could work too !