<!--quoteo(post=2033480:date=Nov 24 2012, 09:45 AM:name=Asmodies)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Asmodies @ Nov 24 2012, 09:45 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2033480"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Every lifeform needs a use that is nearly necessary to win the game, right now fade, lerk, and even gorge don't have that level of usefulness. Buffing fade HP would probably be the biggest step toward fixing that for him but I believe lifeform explosions happen just because there's no reason to spend res on an early lerk or gorge, or a late fade (hell, any kind of fade), so people just stockpile res and bam you have 5 onoses nearly at the same time every single match because they're the only thing that can break gridlock late game.
A really good lerk, and a good fade both should still be able to rock late game, and lerk is closer to that than fade since they have utility later on. The mid-game just needs to be extended and lerk/fade need more utility/survivability.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
i don't think you make an accurate depiction of a typical game. unless it's full of noobs and/or the alien team have 90% of the RT's; i really can't see how marines fail to win already if the alien team try to effectively 'skulk' their way directly to onos.
if you think that fade, lerk and gorge don't have usefulness compared to onos, then you also appear to be evaluating lifeform effectiveness based on total hp - which is wrong. in the case of all lifeforms; their usefulness depends on the room architecture, available tech, opponent tech and other situational factors.
since 230, onos is no longer a crutch. you can't get onos out super early before marines likely have jetpacks or w3, meaning that onos is not a blatant upgrade anymore. a single jetpacker can solo an onos in practically any room besides a low ceiling corridor. on the other hand a blink fade or a lerk are very capable at killing jetpackers just as easily as non-jetpackers.
<!--quoteo(post=2033424:date=Nov 24 2012, 01:57 AM:name=SixtyWattMan)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SixtyWattMan @ Nov 24 2012, 01:57 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2033424"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Unless Fades start 2 shotting Armor 3 Marines, a damage increase will do nothing to help him. His health pool is pathetic. He needs to be put back to 300/150 300/250 and at the same time lifeform explosions need to be prevented somehow so 8 Fades don't pop up at the same time.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Have they ever tried just increasing ROF on the Fade? It seems like a simple little tweak that could potentially make a lot of difference without making the Fade OP, since he still has to hit the same amount of times, and still dies as fast...
I find it odd that they never increased the fade's hp pool after they removed his invulerability while blinking. When the fade could not take damage when blinking it DRAMATICALLY increased his effective hp (and im not saying invulnerable fades should come back)
Perhaps they should make the fade take 1/2 damage while blinking? He is in a different dimension after all.
As far as a damage increase goes, the fade abosultley NEEDS more damage. What use is an assassin when your target can kill you faster than you can kill it? (shotguns)
I've suggested before that the fade should be able to deal bonus damage when using shadowstep or blink, something like 150% damage with shadowstep and 125% with blink. This way the fade must move skillfully to line up big hits, and also uses more energy (more energy = more damage).
The same idea can be applied to the skulk with leap, and already applies to the onos with charge (you can 1 shot a marine as an onos if you gore them while charging, not sure on the exact damage)
I find focus to be a bland upgrade and don't think that it has a place in the game when it would be possible to combine the existing movement mechanics with attacks to create a similar effect.
<!--quoteo(post=2033490:date=Nov 24 2012, 05:31 AM:name=tarquinbb)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (tarquinbb @ Nov 24 2012, 05:31 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2033490"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->i don't think you make an accurate depiction of a typical game. unless it's full of noobs and/or the alien team have 90% of the RT's; i really can't see how marines fail to win already if the alien team try to effectively 'skulk' their way directly to onos.
if you think that fade, lerk and gorge don't have usefulness compared to onos, then you also appear to be evaluating lifeform effectiveness based on total hp - which is wrong. in the case of all lifeforms; their usefulness depends on the room architecture, available tech, opponent tech and other situational factors.
since 230, onos is no longer a crutch. you can't get onos out super early before marines likely have jetpacks or w3, meaning that onos is not a blatant upgrade anymore. a single jetpacker can solo an onos in practically any room besides a low ceiling corridor. on the other hand a blink fade or a lerk are very capable at killing jetpackers just as easily as non-jetpackers.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
skulk is more efficient than lerk or fade and gorge doesn't have any survivability, meaning they have to stay somewhere nearly irrelevant to combat and territory change. I can do just as well holding/pushing territory, backdooring structures, etc as a skulk as a lerk, and fade isn't nearly as good because of the egg time and res cost. JP gets annoying, and GL can cause problems but there's no real reason to go lerk or fade when you can be just as effective as skulk until you have the res for onos for a decisive push.
And I'm evaluating these ideas on how much utility a lifeform has, how much it affects the game being on the field, what kill:time invested ratios they have where applicable, and what areas they can function well in. These observations are over at least a couple hundred games at pretty varied skill levels.
<!--quoteo(post=2033973:date=Nov 24 2012, 07:49 PM:name=Garfu)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Garfu @ Nov 24 2012, 07:49 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2033973"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The ###### energy cost for blink needs to be reverted IM SO MAD.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That was the sole reason you died and didn't solo that entire marine team in base against dn today
The fade is only fine if you are trying to kill players that are so bad they can't even hit a barn door at close range. Other than that, it is a totally useless lifeform and a skulk can suffice until you save the PRES for Onos.
As marine I have no problems solo'ing a fade with an LMG by strafing and dodging attacks and he's easily dead to one magazine and some pistol rounds. This is not the way it should be. A fade should totally dominate a solo marine. This is the way it should be because it forces marines to move in squads and attack as a team - isn't that what NS is supposed to be, a team play based game?
There was nothing wrong with the NS1 fade. The only thing wrong with it was the people who whined about the fade because they were too lowskill. The NS2 fade needs to be the same as NS1 fade. It's a completely useless lifeform forcing anyone with sense to just save for the most skill-less lifeform in NS2 - the Onos. Onos actually took skill in NS1.
Part of the problem with Alien balance is that the Onos is too good that any newb can dominate with it, while the fade is so bad that only the best players can even kill bad players with it. This means that there are just more Onos because everyone saves for one. By the time everyone gets 75 res the game is over.
<!--quoteo(post=2034149:date=Nov 25 2012, 10:11 AM:name=Spetz)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Spetz @ Nov 25 2012, 10:11 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2034149"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The fade is only fine if you are trying to kill players that are so bad they can't even hit a barn door at close range. Other than that, it is a totally useless lifeform and a skulk can suffice until you save the PRES for Onos.
As marine I have no problems solo'ing a fade with an LMG by strafing and dodging attacks and he's easily dead to one magazine and some pistol rounds. This is not the way it should be. A fade should totally dominate a solo marine. This is the way it should be because it forces marines to move in squads and attack as a team - isn't that what NS is supposed to be, a team play based game?
There was nothing wrong with the NS1 fade. The only thing wrong with it was the people who whined about the fade because they were too lowskill. The NS2 fade needs to be the same as NS1 fade. It's a completely useless lifeform forcing anyone with sense to just save for the most skill-less lifeform in NS2 - the Onos. Onos actually took skill in NS1.
Part of the problem with Alien balance is that the Onos is too good that any newb can dominate with it, while the fade is so bad that only the best players can even kill bad players with it. This means that there are just more Onos because everyone saves for one. By the time everyone gets 75 res the game is over.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
please watch the nexzil vs all-in showmatch <a href="http://www.twitch.tv/naturalselection2/b/342494804" target="_blank">http://www.twitch.tv/naturalselection2/b/342494804</a> (footage from friday).
it's pointless to carry on in circles without a case example. in that video, you'll see good players using fades, you'll see fades destroying solo marines, fades gambling against 4-5 marines and you'll also see a few fades go down to only 1-2 marines. obviously it's not 'perfect' play as it was only a fun showmatch; but on a whole, i thought the video made it quite clear that the fade is viable.
i'm looking forward to your reply after watching the match.
<!--quoteo(post=2034270:date=Nov 25 2012, 06:19 AM:name=tarquinbb)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (tarquinbb @ Nov 25 2012, 06:19 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2034270"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->please watch the nexzil vs all-in showmatch <a href="http://www.twitch.tv/naturalselection2/b/342494804" target="_blank">http://www.twitch.tv/naturalselection2/b/342494804</a> (footage from friday).
it's pointless to carry on in circles without a case example. in that video, you'll see good players using fades, you'll see fades destroying solo marines, fades gambling against 4-5 marines and you'll also see a few fades go down to only 1-2 marines. obviously it's not 'perfect' play as it was only a fun showmatch; but on a whole, i thought the video made it quite clear that the fade is viable.
i'm looking forward to your reply after watching the match.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not the person your talking to but I figure i'd reply anyways. I think part of their point was that aliens that don't have the best skill will just skip getting fade and grab onos instead, because fade in the hands of an mediocre player probably won't do much good and can die fairly easily to a mediocre marine. But a mediocre player using an onos can kill a good marine. So people just skip to onos.
So I think the person you are quoting just wants fades to be changed a bit (I never played ns1 but they want fade to be like back then) so that aliens don't skip it so often. They aren't saying that fades can never be good, no matter who plays them.
<!--quoteo(post=2034467:date=Nov 25 2012, 09:49 PM:name=LilbitHeartless)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (LilbitHeartless @ Nov 25 2012, 09:49 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2034467"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm not the person your talking to but I figure i'd reply anyways. I think part of their point was that aliens that don't have the best skill will just skip getting fade and grab onos instead, because fade in the hands of an mediocre player probably won't do much good and can die fairly easily to a mediocre marine. But a mediocre player using an onos can kill a good marine. So people just skip to onos.
So I think the person you are quoting just wants fades to be changed a bit (I never played ns1 but they want fade to be like back then) so that aliens don't skip it so often. They aren't saying that fades can never be good, no matter who plays them.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
if they don't want to play fade, then let them skip to onos.
i'm usually top player (or there about) on my team in pub games, and i definitely kill a lot of pub fades very easily. however, the fade players that are close to my own skill level are a whole different story. especially late game when i've got a jetpack - nothing scares me except lerk and fade, and lerk is about as easy to kill as a skulk when they decide to get in close. a decent fade is by far the toughest 'small encounter' specialist in the game, and that is worth 50 pres.
onos is better suited to group fights; because you're too immobile to catch lone marines, and if going against a group then the marines can spread around making it very difficult for you. as onos you're most effective at getting in their face to disorientate and disorganise; allowing the weak skulk/lerk/fade to clean up.
this is how i believe it should be, each lifeform has a speciality. a 'buffed' fade would simply be a pure upgrade over lerk or maybe even challenge onos as an "OH NO!" lifeform. imo that's a bad idea, akin to introducing a 40 pres personal machine gun for marines which is a direct upgrade over the assault rifle.
i think the fade would be perfectly fine if there was some kind of useful gimmick that you could use against shotgunners; to avoid getting in their face playing russian roulette. i'm smart enough to not engage more than one shotgunner, but i also appreciate that not every player has that level of perception and of course sometimes when you're backed into a corner you have no choice. i feel that an ability such as a very energy expensive ranged attack (no upgrade required - like parasite) would go a long way into fixing that issue.
it definitely sucks when you're fade and your team is relying on you, then you meet a couple of shotgunners... it's basically "meh erm... k guys... err... could someone go in first and hit them a little?". imo the fade needs some offensive ability to give you a tiny versatility, but not a dependable ranged attack like lerk - to avoid stealing the lerk's role.
<!--quoteo(post=2034270:date=Nov 25 2012, 02:19 PM:name=tarquinbb)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (tarquinbb @ Nov 25 2012, 02:19 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2034270"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->please watch the nexzil vs all-in showmatch <a href="http://www.twitch.tv/naturalselection2/b/342494804" target="_blank">http://www.twitch.tv/naturalselection2/b/342494804</a> (footage from friday).
it's pointless to carry on in circles without a case example. in that video, you'll see good players using fades, you'll see fades destroying solo marines, fades gambling against 4-5 marines and you'll also see a few fades go down to only 1-2 marines. obviously it's not 'perfect' play as it was only a fun showmatch; but on a whole, i thought the video made it quite clear that the fade is viable.
i'm looking forward to your reply after watching the match.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What time in the match? I don't have the time to watch all 3 hours.
My first thought would be that if one team were dominating with fades then they really didn't need to go fade to win and instead could have retained skulks and saved 25 res for onos to definitely win the game.
Comments
A really good lerk, and a good fade both should still be able to rock late game, and lerk is closer to that than fade since they have utility later on. The mid-game just needs to be extended and lerk/fade need more utility/survivability.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
i don't think you make an accurate depiction of a typical game. unless it's full of noobs and/or the alien team have 90% of the RT's; i really can't see how marines fail to win already if the alien team try to effectively 'skulk' their way directly to onos.
if you think that fade, lerk and gorge don't have usefulness compared to onos, then you also appear to be evaluating lifeform effectiveness based on total hp - which is wrong. in the case of all lifeforms; their usefulness depends on the room architecture, available tech, opponent tech and other situational factors.
since 230, onos is no longer a crutch. you can't get onos out super early before marines likely have jetpacks or w3, meaning that onos is not a blatant upgrade anymore. a single jetpacker can solo an onos in practically any room besides a low ceiling corridor. on the other hand a blink fade or a lerk are very capable at killing jetpackers just as easily as non-jetpackers.
give the fade 2 more arms
Perhaps they should make the fade take 1/2 damage while blinking? He is in a different dimension after all.
As far as a damage increase goes, the fade abosultley NEEDS more damage. What use is an assassin when your target can kill you faster than you can kill it? (shotguns)
I've suggested before that the fade should be able to deal bonus damage when using shadowstep or blink, something like 150% damage with shadowstep and 125% with blink. This way the fade must move skillfully to line up big hits, and also uses more energy (more energy = more damage).
The same idea can be applied to the skulk with leap, and already applies to the onos with charge (you can 1 shot a marine as an onos if you gore them while charging, not sure on the exact damage)
I find focus to be a bland upgrade and don't think that it has a place in the game when it would be possible to combine the existing movement mechanics with attacks to create a similar effect.
if you think that fade, lerk and gorge don't have usefulness compared to onos, then you also appear to be evaluating lifeform effectiveness based on total hp - which is wrong. in the case of all lifeforms; their usefulness depends on the room architecture, available tech, opponent tech and other situational factors.
since 230, onos is no longer a crutch. you can't get onos out super early before marines likely have jetpacks or w3, meaning that onos is not a blatant upgrade anymore. a single jetpacker can solo an onos in practically any room besides a low ceiling corridor. on the other hand a blink fade or a lerk are very capable at killing jetpackers just as easily as non-jetpackers.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
skulk is more efficient than lerk or fade and gorge doesn't have any survivability, meaning they have to stay somewhere nearly irrelevant to combat and territory change. I can do just as well holding/pushing territory, backdooring structures, etc as a skulk as a lerk, and fade isn't nearly as good because of the egg time and res cost. JP gets annoying, and GL can cause problems but there's no real reason to go lerk or fade when you can be just as effective as skulk until you have the res for onos for a decisive push.
And I'm evaluating these ideas on how much utility a lifeform has, how much it affects the game being on the field, what kill:time invested ratios they have where applicable, and what areas they can function well in. These observations are over at least a couple hundred games at pretty varied skill levels.
That was the sole reason you died and didn't solo that entire marine team in base against dn today
This would mean a 2nd upgrade would have to be introduced though
As marine I have no problems solo'ing a fade with an LMG by strafing and dodging attacks and he's easily dead to one magazine and some pistol rounds. This is not the way it should be. A fade should totally dominate a solo marine. This is the way it should be because it forces marines to move in squads and attack as a team - isn't that what NS is supposed to be, a team play based game?
There was nothing wrong with the NS1 fade. The only thing wrong with it was the people who whined about the fade because they were too lowskill. The NS2 fade needs to be the same as NS1 fade. It's a completely useless lifeform forcing anyone with sense to just save for the most skill-less lifeform in NS2 - the Onos. Onos actually took skill in NS1.
Part of the problem with Alien balance is that the Onos is too good that any newb can dominate with it, while the fade is so bad that only the best players can even kill bad players with it. This means that there are just more Onos because everyone saves for one. By the time everyone gets 75 res the game is over.
As marine I have no problems solo'ing a fade with an LMG by strafing and dodging attacks and he's easily dead to one magazine and some pistol rounds. This is not the way it should be. A fade should totally dominate a solo marine. This is the way it should be because it forces marines to move in squads and attack as a team - isn't that what NS is supposed to be, a team play based game?
There was nothing wrong with the NS1 fade. The only thing wrong with it was the people who whined about the fade because they were too lowskill. The NS2 fade needs to be the same as NS1 fade. It's a completely useless lifeform forcing anyone with sense to just save for the most skill-less lifeform in NS2 - the Onos. Onos actually took skill in NS1.
Part of the problem with Alien balance is that the Onos is too good that any newb can dominate with it, while the fade is so bad that only the best players can even kill bad players with it. This means that there are just more Onos because everyone saves for one. By the time everyone gets 75 res the game is over.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
please watch the nexzil vs all-in showmatch <a href="http://www.twitch.tv/naturalselection2/b/342494804" target="_blank">http://www.twitch.tv/naturalselection2/b/342494804</a> (footage from friday).
it's pointless to carry on in circles without a case example. in that video, you'll see good players using fades, you'll see fades destroying solo marines, fades gambling against 4-5 marines and you'll also see a few fades go down to only 1-2 marines. obviously it's not 'perfect' play as it was only a fun showmatch; but on a whole, i thought the video made it quite clear that the fade is viable.
i'm looking forward to your reply after watching the match.
it's pointless to carry on in circles without a case example. in that video, you'll see good players using fades, you'll see fades destroying solo marines, fades gambling against 4-5 marines and you'll also see a few fades go down to only 1-2 marines. obviously it's not 'perfect' play as it was only a fun showmatch; but on a whole, i thought the video made it quite clear that the fade is viable.
i'm looking forward to your reply after watching the match.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not the person your talking to but I figure i'd reply anyways. I think part of their point was that aliens that don't have the best skill will just skip getting fade and grab onos instead, because fade in the hands of an mediocre player probably won't do much good and can die fairly easily to a mediocre marine. But a mediocre player using an onos can kill a good marine. So people just skip to onos.
So I think the person you are quoting just wants fades to be changed a bit (I never played ns1 but they want fade to be like back then) so that aliens don't skip it so often. They aren't saying that fades can never be good, no matter who plays them.
So I think the person you are quoting just wants fades to be changed a bit (I never played ns1 but they want fade to be like back then) so that aliens don't skip it so often. They aren't saying that fades can never be good, no matter who plays them.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
if they don't want to play fade, then let them skip to onos.
i'm usually top player (or there about) on my team in pub games, and i definitely kill a lot of pub fades very easily. however, the fade players that are close to my own skill level are a whole different story. especially late game when i've got a jetpack - nothing scares me except lerk and fade, and lerk is about as easy to kill as a skulk when they decide to get in close. a decent fade is by far the toughest 'small encounter' specialist in the game, and that is worth 50 pres.
onos is better suited to group fights; because you're too immobile to catch lone marines, and if going against a group then the marines can spread around making it very difficult for you. as onos you're most effective at getting in their face to disorientate and disorganise; allowing the weak skulk/lerk/fade to clean up.
this is how i believe it should be, each lifeform has a speciality. a 'buffed' fade would simply be a pure upgrade over lerk or maybe even challenge onos as an "OH NO!" lifeform. imo that's a bad idea, akin to introducing a 40 pres personal machine gun for marines which is a direct upgrade over the assault rifle.
i think the fade would be perfectly fine if there was some kind of useful gimmick that you could use against shotgunners; to avoid getting in their face playing russian roulette. i'm smart enough to not engage more than one shotgunner, but i also appreciate that not every player has that level of perception and of course sometimes when you're backed into a corner you have no choice. i feel that an ability such as a very energy expensive ranged attack (no upgrade required - like parasite) would go a long way into fixing that issue.
it definitely sucks when you're fade and your team is relying on you, then you meet a couple of shotgunners... it's basically "meh erm... k guys... err... could someone go in first and hit them a little?". imo the fade needs some offensive ability to give you a tiny versatility, but not a dependable ranged attack like lerk - to avoid stealing the lerk's role.
it's pointless to carry on in circles without a case example. in that video, you'll see good players using fades, you'll see fades destroying solo marines, fades gambling against 4-5 marines and you'll also see a few fades go down to only 1-2 marines. obviously it's not 'perfect' play as it was only a fun showmatch; but on a whole, i thought the video made it quite clear that the fade is viable.
i'm looking forward to your reply after watching the match.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What time in the match? I don't have the time to watch all 3 hours.
My first thought would be that if one team were dominating with fades then they really didn't need to go fade to win and instead could have retained skulks and saved 25 res for onos to definitely win the game.