Why are Lerks pretty much as good as fades?
Cloesd
Join Date: 2011-02-23 Member: 83077Members
Join Date: 2011-02-23 Member: 83077Members
They fill a role in between the heavy support they filled in NS1, and the fade in NS1. That is, right now they seem really good at darting in taking a bite, while flying backwards shooting spikes at their already injured target to finish them, quickly flying to the hive, before repeating.
They just seem like a cheaper/more versatile version of the Fade.
I think they need to give Fade the Acid rockets they had in NS1, or perhaps make vortex a little more useful.
They just seem like a cheaper/more versatile version of the Fade.
I think they need to give Fade the Acid rockets they had in NS1, or perhaps make vortex a little more useful.
Comments
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<!--sizeo:1--><span style="font-size:8pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->they are better<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
TADA we have a winrar.
Right now a Fades only option in a fight every fight is to blink in swipe and blink out. unlike the lerk which has tons of ways to approach a fight. The reason this is, is because Lerks have more mobility than Fades but there HP is near the same. Severely hindering what the Fade should be able to do.
Right now a Fades only option in a fight every fight is to blink in swipe and blink out. unlike the lerk which has tons of ways to approach a fight. The reason this is, is because Lerks have more mobility than Fades but there HP is near the same. Severely hindering what the Fade should be able to do.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
While I agree that at the minute it's blink in, swipe (maybe x2), blink out - and that's IT for fade right now, I'm not sure I agree 100% with the idea that lerks are more mobile than fades. Shadowstep, double jump and blink can be incredible when used well. The two main problems that turn me off playing fade are: 1) uninteresting compared to lerk and 2) made of paper considering the 50 res investment.
Let me expand briefly on these.
Lerk has bite, spikes, spores and umbra (when the last two are researched). Can attack by doing hit and run, or from a distance, or a combination, putting spores amongst the marines then picking others off with spikes... lots of different options available to match many different play styles. This is a great fun class to play in NS2 and I have to congratulate the devs on making it, in my lowly opinion, far more fun than the NS1 lerk was (even though I kinda liked that too but rarely played it!).
The fade seems too weak to me. I'm not sure that it's REALLY too weak, or it's that the shotgun is too overpowered, or a combination of both. Acid rockets in NS1 always felt a bit odd to me - like they didn't really belong - however, they did give the fade a ranged weapon... In NS2, this would massively increase the number of options of play style available, which I argue is currently much needed for the fade.
Alternatively, the addition of a teamplay ability for the fade to sit alongside the normal swipe for the vanilla fade could be a good way to give them a bit of a boost, and a bit more variety.
The lack of secondary attack/support abilities (blink being only a movement ability, and vortex being only a late game ability) makes the fade seem like it *should* be an attack unit, but it clearly isn't at present fulfilling this role. It's not a siege alien (and nor should it be!) so it could really use something more to make it really worth its high res cost.
Just my 2p/silly ranting...
Roo
spikes give you versatility, nothing more and nothing less (edit: they also give you a more powerful bite if you use them in conjunction with bite, but this is a no-brainer and doesn't really effect your playstyle other than pressing an extra button). fades are very much a hit and run lifeform, and if hit and run is not viable for the situation then neither is the fade.
fade should not 'trump' lerk though... we don't want lerks to become obsolete. fade might not be a godlike killing machine like the NS1 fade, but from what i've heard it sounds like the NS1 fade stole a lot of limelight from the onos. we have onos as the bulldozer, lerk as the versatile support unit and fade as the hit and run.
if any intervention is needed, it should be to change the game to make hit and run strategies more effective - not to buff fade with hp or ranged viability to make it closer to other pre-existing lifeforms.
in my opinion, giving the lifeforms different roles certainly adds to the stategic depth. if the marines are hardcore turtling, or have a phase gate directly outside your hive room to apply heavy pressure, then hit and run is not a good idea. similarly to starcraft2, if you get banshee (air unit) rushed as a terran then building a bunch of hellion/marauder (cannot hit air units) is not a good idea.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The fade seems too weak to me.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree. At first I was in the camp that the Fade was fine and that was when I played as the Fade the most.
Then I sunk in some time and became very good with the skulk, then I became decent with the lerk, and now I almost never go Fade. I know this may sound really stupid, but I find I can live longer and kill more as a skulk than a fade. One skulk in a pack of two or three other aliens is the lowest priority for most marine players. The fade, even when blinking, just gets lit up. It's a massive target that quickly takes damage.
I realize I may be in the minority, but I really like the first iteration of blink instead of the current 'NS1' version we have now. The first iteration allowed the fade to enter his little 'fade-world' and then reappear. When he was in 'fade-world' he didn't take damage. Now that blink is 'I just move really fast!' I find it's too easy to predict a fade's movement.
The Fade needs some love. I don't think it's the shotgun being too strong because I don't have a problem with it as a skulk/lerk. I think it's the Fade being ineffective.
All of that said, I agree with Tarquinbb. I don't think the answer is to just throw more HP at the Fade. I really think Vortex needs to be overhauled to be useful or removed and replaced with something else. Maybe then the Fade could remain useful throughout the game.
The first iteration of blink in NS2 was instant teleportation like NS 1.0x.
(yes even the "good fade" blink up in the air shadow step down strategy, that worked when ns2 was new.. its not new anymore we kill air fades with lvl1 marines now)
Then as the game progresses the lerk goes from a efficient super fast flying single marine killer to a super fast group killer with umbra that blocks bullets and protects onos. Lerk isn't even a maybe anymore, if you want a 30 or 40 to something tiny kill ratio and to be on top of the score board you will be a lerk or an onos. Or you will be a lerk and then an onos later on.
24 player pub game experience talking here.
I guess what i should really be saying is - lerks are the new fade, and fades are the new lerks. Remember how hard it was to play lerk in NS1? well thats the fade now, and the NS1 fade player should now go lerk. It's just not every ns1 player has given the new lerk a good run yet.
<u>Movement:</u>
You shouldn't lose any height, vertical nor horizontal velocity when you're crouching, because it makes it unnecessarily difficult to get into vents or up to platforms. This is true for marines as well, but it is even more so important for Fades.
There should be more control in air movement, if this would be exclusive for Fades is a matter of balance, but in narrow paths it's a death trap to try and even tap blink because you will go straight into some idiotic placed prop.
<u>Shadow Step:</u>
Make it possible to press Shift first before you press the movement keys to shadow step. Since right now, you have to press movement key and then press Shift to shadow step, hence you have to release Shift and press the respective movement key, and then press Shift again. It's like I'm working against nature, since all my life I've always pressed Shift first, and now they're going to make it unnecessarily complicated for the sake of raising the skill ceiling?
Increase its cost from 10 to 12, since right now, I believe it's just too cost-effective really. There's just no limit to how much you can spam shadow step, and I think one should be conscious to how one use shadow step.
<u>Blink:</u>
Reduce its energy cost from 12 to 10. Because of the cost, I rarely use it out of combat except from getting up to places. I loved how it was before, where I used a combination of shadow step and blink to travel around the map; they had their own purpose to how to get through the map most effectively, such as using shadow step to get to the ground faster or to easier get through low ceilings, and blink to travel more cost-effective for the expense of not having as high velocity as shadow step give.
<u>Base Stats:</u>
In late game, the shotgun does indeed feel a bit too strong with W3, if you exclude that you a lot of the time eat the bullets. It's not too difficult to hit a Fade, just wait for it to try and swipe you. Don't get me wrong, it's not a walk in the park, but it's not as impossible as others make it out to be.
Like someone else mentioned here, either Fade's stats should be increased or the shotgun nerfed in some way without making it too risky to hold.
<b>Video:</b> <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gaxfnH6MQY4&hd=1" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gaxfnH6MQY4&hd=1</a>
Note: I had huge FPS drops because of Dxtory, and at times the key strokes didn't register for some odd reason. Eventually I couldn't be arsed to try any more.
lower DPS than a lerk
slower than a lerk by a LOT
bigger target than a lerk by a LOT
can't fly (so blinking path is much more predictable)
blink is slow enough for experienced marines to shoot ahead and kill a blinking fade easily (make fades invincible during blink? dunno maybe)
2 competent marines will kill a fade unless its really close to a corner
corners are the fades only real hit and run chance (but almost every other alien form is cheaper/better bang for buck at a corner)
don't tell me fades are good at single marines, every alien that is a good player has a decent chance at a single marine
*edit* is there a console command to record games? i would like to show the easy fade killing stuff in a public ingame recording
When you balance a team you can't balance an individual unit. You have to balance a team as a whole.
By giving fades more health and armour. That would increase their harass potential much more.
But in doing so, that makes small marines teams more susceptible. A smart fade doesn't need to kill he will slowly wear down the enemy and make easy escapes.
You don't want too many tanks.
Onos it self is already a massive hit and run tank. Onos is suppose to cause a distraction while the fade comes in and provides support.
When you balance a team you can't balance an individual unit. You have to balance a team as a whole.
By giving fades more health and armour. That would increase their harass potential much more.
But in doing so, that makes small marines teams more susceptible. A smart fade doesn't need to kill he will slowly wear down the enemy and make easy escapes.
You don't want too many tanks.
Onos it self is already a massive hit and run tank. Onos is suppose to cause a distraction while the fade comes in and provides support.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
ideally but no, the fade is the worst support for an onos in the game.
- A skulk cost nothing and can wear away at anything if hes smart, skulk circle strafing exos works in pubs sometimes
- A lurk uses umbra which blocks 1 out of 2 bullets (double onos health if used right) + damages and often kills marines if they are away from an armoury
- a gorge heals the onos (no brainer)
- a fade hides a lot and then runs out kills maybe one or two marines in the RARE occasion then hides for a lot longer (or dies instead, pick which you prefer)
if unknown worlds are logging kill data id love to see the kill:death ratio data on the fades, i have a feeling they are scared to adjust this bit because the game IS balanced but its just the fade is a dark spot that could throw the balance off if they address it. It means some sort of marine buff. Personally i think they should confront this now, fix it because the longer it lingers the bigger the fade joke will become. While we are at it, get rid of vortex, omg the fade is bad enough already, replace that ###### with a weak acid rocket or something.
When you balance a team you can't balance an individual unit. You have to balance a team as a whole.
By giving fades more health and armour. That would increase their harass potential much more.
But in doing so, that makes small marines teams more susceptible. A smart fade doesn't need to kill he will slowly wear down the enemy and make easy escapes.
You don't want too many tanks.
Onos it self is already a massive hit and run tank. Onos is suppose to cause a distraction while the fade comes in and provides support.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You can jump in a group of marines as a skulk, get some hits in, or even some kills, die, and respawn in the time it takes a fade to get back to hive and heal up. You can harass and slow down groups of marines as lerk as well, for just 30 res, and with little risk of dying. I don't want the fade to be a tank, but I don't want a 50 res lifeform to die that easily as well, especially considering the fact you could save up just a bit longer and get a far superior lifeform.
They're also good for small squads of 2-3. With a skulk on support, those marines are going to die before you do.
Well placed shades, shifts, and crags help the Fade's survivability immensely.
Move erratically and you become a much tougher target to hit. Serpentine with shadow step and blink to escape, and you'll pretty much never get hit.
Their effectiveness over the skulk came from the fact they could operate behind enemy lines for long periods without needing to retreat to hives. They were the ultimate harassment class.
If they made blink much more expensive (energy wise) they could buff his attacks where he could fit into a role where he was more like a "berserker" kind of thing. Make him do TONS of damage in short bursts (either a straight DMG buff or an attack speed buff) but make energy management much more of a problem. He'd either have to blink in to fights where he knew he'd win, or he could ambush and use his blink to get away. But the way the Lerk is in NS2, the fade just doesn't make much sense as a hit and run guy IMO.
I think the best way to do it would be a buff too attack speed though. That way it's not necessarily a straight buff, it'd be something the player would have to be able to pull off.
*says nothing* :p
Yep, I like the Fade but right now it feels like the one gun Exo compared to two gun on the alien side.
When you balance a team you can't balance an individual unit. You have to balance a team as a whole.
By giving fades more health and armour. That would increase their harass potential much more.
But in doing so, that makes small marines teams more susceptible. A smart fade doesn't need to kill he will slowly wear down the enemy and make easy escapes.
You don't want too many tanks.
Onos it self is already a massive hit and run tank. Onos is suppose to cause a distraction while the fade comes in and provides support.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
increase fade damage or increase fade hp; it's not worth 50 res.
Unless Fades start 2 shotting Armor 3 Marines, a damage increase will do nothing to help him. His health pool is pathetic. He needs to be put back to 300/150 300/250 and at the same time lifeform explosions need to be prevented somehow so 8 Fades don't pop up at the same time.
Their effectiveness over the skulk came from the fact they could operate behind enemy lines for long periods without needing to retreat to hives. They were the ultimate harassment class.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree completely. It would solve most of the problems without having to change too much (and see if it works). It would be a more viable ability than vortex, and it would enhance their hit and run playstyle
Every lifeform needs a use that is nearly necessary to win the game, right now fade, lerk, and even gorge don't have that level of usefulness. Buffing fade HP would probably be the biggest step toward fixing that for him but I believe lifeform explosions happen just because there's no reason to spend res on an early lerk or gorge, or a late fade (hell, any kind of fade), so people just stockpile res and bam you have 5 onoses nearly at the same time every single match because they're the only thing that can break gridlock late game.
A really good lerk, and a good fade both should still be able to rock late game, and lerk is closer to that than fade since they have utility later on. The mid-game just needs to be extended and lerk/fade need more utility/survivability.
Fade movement in fine.