Commander tactics for outclassed marines?
SlowLefty
Join Date: 2011-02-13 Member: 81653Members, Reinforced - Shadow
Join Date: 2011-02-13 Member: 81653Members, Reinforced - Shadow
Yesterday I was ashamed of myself.
Tried out a new server, played several rounds as marine commander, and watched each time a few skulks destroy an entire marine team.
Finally I snapped over the mic "Holy ######, you guys suck!" which was instantly followed by regret, for that is not the NS2 community spirit.
But it got me thinking, what is the best tactic for a weak team?
- Sentries worked for a bit, but the aliens rushed bile bomb.
- Armor helped marines survive a bit longer, but still not get the kills.
- Agressive rush tactics just moved the graveyard closer to the aliens.
- Jumping in and out of the chair was too slow to fight and command.
What can you suggest to players who struggle against a single skulk?
How do you keep moral up when holding two extractors is a challenge?
Tried out a new server, played several rounds as marine commander, and watched each time a few skulks destroy an entire marine team.
Finally I snapped over the mic "Holy ######, you guys suck!" which was instantly followed by regret, for that is not the NS2 community spirit.
But it got me thinking, what is the best tactic for a weak team?
- Sentries worked for a bit, but the aliens rushed bile bomb.
- Armor helped marines survive a bit longer, but still not get the kills.
- Agressive rush tactics just moved the graveyard closer to the aliens.
- Jumping in and out of the chair was too slow to fight and command.
What can you suggest to players who struggle against a single skulk?
How do you keep moral up when holding two extractors is a challenge?
Comments
It's a popular misunderstanding that commanders win games. No they don't. Everything marine comm does requires players, and if those players are worse than the players of the alien comm, alien comm is going to win - unless game is heavily imbalanced.
You can ease the pain though - recycle early if you're certain it's not gonna happen, also making sure the team understands why you're recycling. Preferably get a couple people to agree with you on the recycle, so possible arguments can be thwarted.
If you insist on trying something, get phasegates and get the whole marine team near the enemy hive. Get a phasegate up, get 3 ip's, and tell them to go suicide attack the hive. Since marines spawn much faster than aliens, it's pretty much their best shot.
Yes, it will be a loss. But every loss that these newbie marines suffer should *COUNT* for something, and if that something is a trickle-learning from the following points:
a) they need to work as a team, b) they need to be aggressive as a team, but still defend base, c) they MUST follow orders and d) communication is really, really important
then you're helping them along. Then all you need is patience...
Of course, there will also be specifics about the game that they're learning all the time, and these are a must, too (like welders are a good idea, don't run off on your own, especially not with some tech, as you WILL lose it, etc etc etc).
However, the biggest learning point that still isn't sinking in as far as I can see is b) above: the need for marines to be super aggressive, while maintaining a sufficient defence in their base(s). Too many newbie marines seem to think this means all running in different directions from base at the start and axing cysts as soon as they see them. Sigh.
(a skulk that is trying to defend something, is a skulk at a disadvantage, and it's also a skulk that isn't attacking your expensive stuff.
If, by some miracle, the marine kills a defending skulk - then they'll either need to send another skulk or let that structure die.
2).Organise people in squads of 2-3 to roam around.Even worst shots will create a great bullet curtain when crowded!
3).Make someone go as builder.Just randomly choose a guy and MAKE him build,while others spread out.If someone joins him tell him that 1 builder is more than enough.More often than not I see the whole team building,which delays resources!
4).Always try to have someone near your base for the first 1-2 minutes,because sculk rushes annihilates weak teams.Its a common rule for all games,but in this case you'll need 2 marines and yourself to be ready to defend.
<!--fonto:Arial Black--><span style="font-family:Arial Black"><!--/fonto--><b><!--coloro:#FFFF00--><span style="color:#FFFF00"><!--/coloro-->GOLD ADVICE<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--></b><!--fontc--></span><!--/fontc-->).Whatever your units say,if they cant aim at all,buy weapon/armor upgrades for vanilla marines as soon as possible.<u>DO NOT BUY SHOTGUNS UNTIL YOU ARE SURE IN YOUR TEAM ORGANISATION!</u>Since people won't be able to effectively recycle weapons,they'll turn into P-Res wasters.Wait for 4 minutes and then research <!--coloro:#FFFF00--><span style="color:#FFFF00"><!--/coloro-->mines<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> and ask guys to place mines on extractors,power nodes,important structures,chokepoints.It does not take skill to aim a mine,you've just saved yourself a few extractors(and a ton of nerves),discouraged sculk harassment,upped guys morale by adding a few frags for them.Just tell them not to over mine stuff,since mines wont do anything against fades.
Just make sure your noobs dont place the mines too close together.
if the marines bunch up as a ball they are more likely to die If they space them selves out, they can more easily cover skulks on the opposite player.
In the case of onos and fade this is generally the most important. Marines have to spread out and sorrund them. In case of fade blocking the exits is always useful, so you do the finishing shot as they try to escape. Onos if its a good player will escape with ample health, so more then likely your going to be killed. But if luck is on your side you will land the killing blow
That is not true. I employ many pub tactics with a high win percentage. As long as people do as expected you are sure to win, you just have to lower you expectations and use different strategies.
First, don't build the robo factory. It's a waste of resources especially for unorganised teams. Drop down a second IP and armoury asap, as close to each other as you can.
Next, just secure resource nodes.
If you are having trouble taking half the map, get upgrades out faster and phase gates later on the front lines. Don't do anything else if you have though, just get phasegates and only phasegates. Then, get a phasegate in your base and on each front line of the map. Make sure to drop armouries in places where you team is holding, don't waste resources constantly dropping them health and ammo packs when an armoury costs 10 of these.
As soon as you have your phase up start working on upgrades. You need w1 or w2 to counter higher lifeforms, so forget armour and don't bother with a1, it's almost useless. Try either w1/a1/a2/a3/w2/w3 or w1/w2/a1/a2/a3/w3 to maximize the time spent with weapons 1 and minimize without armour 1.
Make sure to get shotguns right after w1 or at the same time. Remember that the protolab requires an adv armoury so make sure to upgrade right before you plan on building one. Don't bother with any of the other weapons just yet, those are all situational and get them as you need them unless someone asks for them.
Don't start building the protolab until you see someone on your team has 60+ resources, they should by now though. Start by researching exo and dual exo unless most people on your team are capable of using jetpacks properly, chances are they are not since you are seeing your team as weak.
Placing the protolab on a forward base is a good idea. Make sure to have a obs in that base as when exosuits are finished, it's proper to beacon your team so that they can get their dual exosuits unless they are busy doing something important. After you have most of your team with dual exosuits they will most likely move together and not die separately, if they don't go off by themselves it should be gg for the aliens, as it takes a lot of teamwork to demolish a bunch of exosuits, onos spam won't do the trick.
Congrats you won your first game as commander. Obviously since it's an RTS many things can happen, but this is just a rough outline as to how I play and if everything goes as planned a win is assured.
Some more commanding tips:
- Do as your marines say unless it really goes against the win. You are almost always better off listening to your players.
- The most important role of the marine commander is actually supporting your team on the front lines and forward. This means dropping armouries, but above all dropping a ton of medpacks for your aggressive teammates to keep them attacking. If you see a good player on your team, be prepared to med spam and nanoshield him all the time. If he wants a shotgun, you damn better give him one, he could win you the game.
- The robotics factory with its sentries can be useful to hold ground, but never use it as your primary defence. It's a huge resource dump early game and will delay all of your tech. Just like Static defences in SC2 they are what will make you lose if you build them instead of bolstering your army. Like photon cannons you don't want to place sentries early and when you don't need to. Early sentries are a sign of weakness and a slow death for the marine team. They are ok at most at holding off lerks and fades, but they have trouble hitting skulks so build them to support your marines which should be your primary means of defence. Defend by building phasegates and armouries at weak areas as soon as you can, not sentries.
- Ideally you want to not get exosuits at all, because they are a complete waste due to lack of mobility and anything they can do a squad of marines with jetpacks and assorted weapons can do better and faster. Unfortunately, most players are not capable of playing without exosuits or using jetpacks properly. If you feel like your team is full of good players, forget exosuits until you have weapons and jetpacks.
- Research welders only when you need them unless you already have everything else, they are almost instant to research. Be aware of power node and phase gate health and tell your team to weld them when needed to.
- macs are great for repairing, not so much for building. Leave that to marines unless it's not possible. They are best used later in the game to protect exosuits, arcs, and weld marines and structures.
- Don't forget to say gg!
<b>Step one: Phase gates and mines.</b>
Get phase gates up in as many hive/2res positions as you can and make sure they are always covered by mines. You can use turrets to help hold down rooms at the beginning of the game but typically with a crappy team you aren't holding too many nodes so you can't really afford it. Don't bother with shotguns because your marines will just waste their res and you want them to get mines anyway. Instead focus on getting upgrades and prioritize getting ARCs, maybe prioritize armor upgrades because of the defensive playstyle your engaging in.
<b>Step two: identify which 2 hives the aliens are starting with and ARC one of them</b>
With a phasegate and an armory, even an outclassed team can hold a position if they don't have to push into a room. Some hives can be ARCd from suprisingly easy to defend areas. If you have 3 ARCs a hive will die FAST, 2 ARCS can even take it down. Try to get a marine to set up stealth phase gates in places like ball court if you can't get into a good position with a team of marines.
Step three: lock down the hive location you just ARCed, full lockdowns are required once you are holding 3 tech points, you need to block the powernode with the armory preferably, get turrets if you can afford it and make sure the phase gate has mines on it, keep encourging your team to buy mines. PLACE OBSERVATORIES IN EVERY BASE. You can't count on your team to defend your bases sufficiently on their own, so you need to be able to becon them as necessary. You will also need CCs in the base or you can't becon there (dumb).
Step 4: Repeat step 2 and 3 as necessary
Step 5: When you can afford it get exos, newbs love exo trains and are incompetent with jps.
Also continually rebuild RTs which are in areas of the map you control, even if your losing these rts on a fairly regular basis it doesnt matter, they repay themselves quickly enough that you usually benefit and even if aliens are picking them off, you are wasting the smarter aka better aliens time doing so at little cost to yourself except your crappy marines time.
The key is to prevent the aliens from holding 2 hives for extended periods of time. Even crappy marines can beat aliens on 1 hive.
The commander CAN WIN U THE GAME.
Mines are good though. It's hard to tell when you actually need them though, since it's 15 res + the research to kill one skulk on average or ward them off of your phase gates. If I have a forward base that is vulnerable for example crossroads, I usually research them and drop them for my marines to pick up but only if I have spare resources or I feel like that place would be in trouble otherwise.
Mines are good though. It's hard to tell when you actually need them though, since it's 15 res + the research to kill one skulk on average or ward them off of your phase gates.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
My problem with exos is that ultimately, they are player controlled and you have to push into the hive. Incompetent players often are not that good at using their exos, and whwnever you have to push into a hive room, you are giving the aliens an awesome chance to attack you from all sides, and more importantly, giving your team a chance to screw up hard. Thats why I prefer ARCs for bad players because all they have to do is continually phase in and defend a position/use mines whatever.
There's always the off chance you can make something happen and it's great when you can squeeze out that victory. Though what you will most likely accomplish is extend the game another 15-30 minutes knowing full well the game is lost unless aliens mess up in a spectacular fashion.
It's a popular misunderstanding that commanders win games. No they don't. Everything marine comm does requires players,<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This.
Sometimes you can even out between commander and marines, but you have to be once exceptional commander if your team is bad. This is because in good matches, all it takes is for 1-2 marines to ignore your requests and you're ######tinned for sure.
Might as well just ragerecycle erry round until they wake up and start listening to you.
If your marines can't aim, buy armor upgrades.
Rush phase tech while doing either of the above. Encourage them to find the hive (a hive) and PG as close as humanly possible.
If they can't kill a hive with close spawns, they can't win period. The reason being that they will almost never get flanked on this mission, the aliens spawn from one direction and will keep coming until the eggs are dry... so your marines should be able to focus down skulks in 1's and 2's... if they cant do that while spraying the occasional burst into the gigantic green testicle, no amount of fineness is going to save them.
If possible, use ARC's to get the job done and just have the marines cover the ARC's... thereby reducing their workload even more.
All of this basically assumes that you can keep them focused on the task at hand and not wander off looking for "fun".
If we are just talking about a marine team that isn't clueless but is simply outclassed... rush W/3 A/3 and then shotguns and flamers. Mines are good too, but they can waste a lot of p-res on them and not accomplish much more than a good flamer squad will.
not really, the shotgun is really punishing. One shot is the difference between losing 20 resources and killing one 0 resource skulk.
I buy a shotgun? I'm just going to die anyway because i'm clicking reflexively when thre's not a life form under my xhair.
Or failing at snapshots / tracking and doing the same thing.
Trust me, researching sg's just turns bad marines into marines who ALSO waste their personal resources.
Upgrade mines instead, at least they don't require aiming skills.
You can compensate bad aim with coordinated attacks a lot. Everyone can hit an rt/hive.
If that's the case than you are either getting seriously outplayed, or fps games isn't for you. Stop mindlessly moving from room to room like you're baddest ###### on the ns2 block (and letting the skulls get the drop on you) and you might discover how cheesy the shotgun are.
Losing 20 res only occur on extreme conditions, such as being an idiot and pushing out too far. Given how easy it is to recycle weapons in the game, shotguns are only 20 res if you allow it to be. I've recycled shotguns numerous times during a single match.
Shotguns won't turn baddies into good players... they will drain their p-res. Not being able to aim and hitting skulks running around isn't solved by giving players a shotgun that, up close, requires roughly the same aim/skill as just pistoling a skulk into paste.
No point wasting p-res early game when you don't have armour ups. Skulks will just attack frmo behind you and get the jump.
Losing 20 res only occur on extreme conditions, such as being an idiot and pushing out too far. Given how easy it is to recycle weapons in the game, shotguns are only 20 res if you allow it to be. I've recycled shotguns numerous times during a single match.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If you're getting outclassed, chances are your marines aim isn't terribly good to begin with. Shotgun requires good aim, and you have to be absolutely consistent. There's a very small window between when the skulk is close enough to one-shot and when it's close enough to maul you. And once it closes that distance, it's not terribly easy to hit. So you get one chance to hit a small, fast moving object, and if you fail, you die. Sure, you can say "learn to aim", but this is a discussion about a team that's being outclassed... if they could aim there wouldn't be a problem.
LMG is just a much easier gun for newer players. And it's pretty powerful anyway. Isn't it 12 bullets to kill a skulk? That doesn't take long. And you can shoot them from anywhere.. both short range and long range. More often than not I can kill a skulk or 2 before they even reach the distance where I could one-shot them with a shotgun. Sure it's good for the quicker reload, and for fades. But considering how good a 0 res vanilla LMG is too, is it really that much more powerful against skulks? Maybe against a big group of them, or one that's got the drop on you either by hiding or cloaking or just sneaking up on you
But yeah, shotguns don't turn bad players into skilled players. They turn bad players into even worse players.