<!--quoteo(post=2030183:date=Nov 21 2012, 02:54 AM:name=fanatic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fanatic @ Nov 21 2012, 02:54 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2030183"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->b230 walljump is fine. The old walljump was far too powerful considering how little skill it took to max out its potential.
Forcing skulks to stay closer to the ground instead of constantly flying around the map like they had hive1 leap, will also be good for gameplay.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm surprised you like this change.
I believe ns2 needed quite a strong walljump for both combat/traversing the map to compete with similar skilled marines + sprint. Now we are simply left with just slower skulks.
Just played 230 for a bit, and the change in wall-jumping is noticalbe indeed...but at the same time, to me it feels as if it has been translated into more momentum. I got the impression I'm moving a bit faster (without Celerity).
So, this didn't get fixed in the newest patch. Maybe it's intended? Hard to tell when it's ignored in the patch notes.
This change is taking away lots of the fun of playing a skulk. Now it's the marines who are jumping over YOUR head in close combat, for ######'s sake. And trying to wall jump to quickly get from one place to another feels like a complete waste of time. This must be a bug? Fix it.
fanaticThis post has been edited.Join Date: 2003-07-23Member: 18377Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
edited November 2012
<!--quoteo(post=2030597:date=Nov 21 2012, 12:04 AM:name=male_fatalities)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (male_fatalities @ Nov 21 2012, 12:04 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2030597"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm surprised you like this change.
I believe ns2 needed quite a strong walljump for both combat/traversing the map to compete with similar skilled marines + sprint. Now we are simply left with just slower skulks.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> It makes for (crappy) unpredictable combat at higher levels of play, since it's so easy to execute that all the players, at least in the decent European teams, utilize it as a mini-leap.
Personally, I still find the b230 walljump to be too powerful compared to how easy it is to perform. After having played with it for a while, I'm not even sure it counts as a nerf anymore, since the most practical usage (wall-to-wall with no setup time) is actually faster now (9 base compared to 8.5 previous), even though you can't use it to leverage your skulk from one end of the room to the other anymore (due to the reduced vertical boost).
I just wish we could get an official write-up of exactly what the walljump rules are. It's always been an obscure mechanic and these undocumented changes aren't helping.
The skulk feels so heavy now. I totally fell in love with skulk after watching the advanced skulking tutorial video at 229. Jumping around and fooling marines by suddenly wall jumping over them and stuff. Now I feel like only thing I can do is run around them and try to eat them from ground. Jumping from walls in combat became quite useless in my opinion. Before 230 it was so awesome and fun. Now I don't much bother wall jumping around map because it's so slow. No altitude given at all.
The big jump you could do with the vertical boost were about the most predictable things you could do with the skulk, smooth parabolas. Specially now with the almost instantaneous acceleration you have on the ground. What affects more predictability is the ability to redirect completely your velocity on jump. Maybe they should cap the amount of velocity you can redirect to 5, so that when you go faster you need to keep a smoother trajectory.
BiteyJoin Date: 2012-05-06Member: 151622Members, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester
<!--quoteo(post=2031677:date=Nov 21 2012, 04:44 PM:name=Agiel)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Agiel @ Nov 21 2012, 04:44 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2031677"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I believe Andi is on vacation so we won't get his explanation until he's back, but looking at the numbers here are (most of) the changes that went into build 230. As far as I know there were no changes in 232. <ul><li>Wall jump upward boost increased from 2 to 2.5.</li><li>Wall jump vertical modifier decreased from 9 to 5. (This is probably your problem, but was a weird one and I agree with the change)</li><li>Wall jump forward boost increased from 1.18 to 1.2.</li><li>Minimum wall jump speed increased from 8.5 to 9.</li><li>Maximum fall acceleration increased from 6 to 9.</li><li>Ground acceleration increased from 85 to 140.</li><li>Ground friction increased from 12.16 to 20.</li><li>Wall walk code (completely?) reworked and should feel a lot better now.</li></ul><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Placed here so it's in a more noticeable and topical location
BiteyJoin Date: 2012-05-06Member: 151622Members, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester
And I'll voice my opinon on the change too I suppose, it sucks :<
The fact that you can't really chain any of the old jumps together is pretty lame. Regardless of the speeds, the amount of fun had while jumping has decreased even if it 'might' be more effective for speed. Now most of the old jumping locations don't work and your momentum fizzles out before any interesting 'mini-leaps' can be performed.
@Remark "Too easy"
If your going to have a modern game, <b>hidden</b> gimmicky bhops and speed gaining techniques should be removed at all costs. Ontop of that there will never be anything hard about learning a movement technique, as it only takes a skilled instructor to break it down for someone to understand. If something is inherently complex, it becomes something that is frustrating to master and only a diehard player will learn to perform it. The prior build was something that was easy to explain and fun to master, just check out all the people who swarmed the l2pns2 section when I taught the basics.
When creating a movement technique in a modern game you should be able to explain it in one simple line of text. As long as the technique is easy it ensures the masses will be able to learn it. The fact still stands that current walljumping is still counter intuitive and hidden to a newbies. There is no in game hint of "Jump off walls for more speed" so the feature goes mostly unused and misunderstood by many.
TLDR: I liked the old 229 method, even with a slight speed nerf. It was more fun, interesting, and simply better for gameplay. Regarldess of how close to mini-leap it was, as a feature it was powerful, succesful and <!--sizeo:5--><span style="font-size:18pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->easy<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->.
<!--quoteo(post=2031730:date=Nov 21 2012, 07:41 PM:name=Bitey)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bitey @ Nov 21 2012, 07:41 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2031730"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And I'll voice my opinon on the change too I suppose, it sucks :<
The fact that you can't really chain any of the old jumps together is pretty lame. Regardless of the speeds, the amount of fun had while jumping has decreased even if it 'might' be more effective for speed. Now most of the old jumping locations don't work and your momentum fizzles out before any interesting 'mini-leaps' can be performed.
@Remark "Too easy"
If your going to have a modern game, <b>hidden</b> gimmicky bhops and speed gaining techniques should be removed at all costs. Ontop of that there will never be anything hard about learning a movement technique, as it only takes a skilled instructor to break it down for someone to understand. If something is inherently complex, it becomes something that is frustrating to master and only a diehard player will learn to perform it. The prior build was something that was easy to explain and fun to master, just check out all the people who swarmed the l2pns2 section when I taught the basics.
When creating a movement technique in a modern game you should be able to explain it in one simple line of text. As long as the technique is easy it ensures the masses will be able to learn it. The fact still stands that current walljumping is still counter intuitive and hidden to a newbies. There is no in game hint of "Jump off walls for more speed" so the feature goes mostly unused and misunderstood by many.
TLDR: I liked the old 229 method, even with a slight speed nerf. It was more fun, interesting, and simply better for gameplay. Regarldess of how close to mini-leap it was, as a feature it was powerful, succesful and <!--sizeo:5--><span style="font-size:18pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->easy<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I think more in terms of skill ceiling. "easy to learn lifetime to master" is the ideal spread for most movement abilities. Marine movement in NS2 really bothers still me for that reason.
All you really need to explain about wall jump is "you jump off the wall and get more speed, and it can be chained together". It's not like bhop where you had this unintuitive structure of keystrokes that, once you figured out didn't take too long to really click... Bhop was good if everyone playing on the server knew it, but there was a good chance that even highly experienced players never broke the barrier of entry. Pretty much everyone who's been playing NS2 for more than a week is trying to wall jump now. Lots of people aren't very good at it yet, but they've started working on it. It doesn't have that absurd "I need to learn to move forward without pressing the forward key? WTF" mechanic. The "hidden" mechanics weren't that destructive. I figured out on my own without having to watch videos a few of the routes and a few basic things like looking up helps.
EVERYTHING in the movement system doesn't have to be immediately intuitive, as long as there is some degree of sensibility to it and the basic tenants aren't throwing away logical assumptions a player would make in favor of completely convoluted mechanics. Wall jumping irks real world physics, but it does it in a consistent enough way that I don't think a powerful walljump mechanic is at all bad for the game. (assuming skulks are balanced to match what they are capable of with wall jumping)
there's no difference in the mechanics. you're not going to make an easy mechanic difficult just by changing values. I like the new speed from this one, but I don't know what this delusion comes from of the old mechanic being "easier". it's the same garbage except you can't even get up to high speeds by chaining jumps, which was probably the one remotely interesting thing about B229 jump.
The picture i'm getting from those changes is that walljump is being changed to a one trick pony that abuses lag compensation/interp and the ability for marines to react, ceiling drops.
building speed, preserving speed, chaining jumps, aerial dodging etc. is being phased out.
I don't agree with the vertical boost modifier being reduced. If i want to walljump off a wall, it should go in the direction i'm pointing my mouse. Unfortunately it seems impossible to have both freedom of movement and this ceiling drop gimmick in the same system because you start getting alot of crazy air skulk movement that doesn't require alot of skill (due to the high min speed boost floor).
*why ground friction was increased like 100% really puzzles me. We're all still going to do glancing jumps and make the most of a pretty bad movement system.
fwiw, as a new player, it was pretty frustrating to have this patched. I'd just started to get good at b229 skulk movement after a lot of practice and patience, and then the mechanics change. Being unable to control direction with mouse movement is pretty frustrating, and the friction makes me feel like I am an xbox trying out for olympic gymnastics. After a few days I'm learning again, but it's kinda crappy to have the rug pulled out under oneself like that.
fanaticThis post has been edited.Join Date: 2003-07-23Member: 18377Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
edited November 2012
<!--quoteo(post=2031730:date=Nov 22 2012, 01:41 AM:name=Bitey)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bitey @ Nov 22 2012, 01:41 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2031730"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If your going to have a modern game, <b>hidden</b> gimmicky bhops and speed gaining techniques should be removed at all costs. Ontop of that there will never be anything hard about learning a movement technique, as it only takes a skilled instructor to break it down for someone to understand. If something is inherently complex, it becomes something that is frustrating to master and only a diehard player will learn to perform it. The prior build was something that was easy to explain and fun to master, just check out all the people who swarmed the l2pns2 section when I taught the basics.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Comments like this unfortunately show that you've completely missed the point. Nobody's saying that it shouldn't be easy to learn; what we're saying is that it shouldn't be easy to master. If you really think that skulk movement shouldn't be hard to master, it's pretty hopeless: How do you expect skulk proficiency to scale with skill levels in the same way as aiming does, if movement (the alien equivalent to aiming) is trivial to master, compared to aiming? You'll end up with a game that is alien biased at lower levels of play and marine biased at higher levels of play. That is horrible game design.
All gameplay mechanics should aim to follow the Othello motto of "a minute to learn, a lifetime to master". This is especially important for crucial combat skills, such as skulk movement. In the case of the current (and past iterations) walljumping, it's more a case of "a couple of hours to learn, a couple of days to master". Sure, you can spend some time finding and memorizing specific jump routes, but the practicality of using those jumps in combat is very limited and heavily reliant on map design.
I don't accept the claim that complex movement mechanics are inherently "frustrating to master", nor do I accept that only diehard players will learn to perform it. If it's relatively easy to learn the basics of the mechanic, to get a small but significant gameplay benefit from it, but at the same time almost impossible to perfect, so that it is always possible to improve, and that constant improvement is attained gradually through use of the mechanic, the players will love it, and it will be a huge benefit to both quality of gameplay and longevity of the game.
Furthermore, you guys are grossly exaggerating the impact of the changes. It is perfectly possible to chain jumps and gain speed with the b231 walljump. It only took me a couple of hours to fully adjust, and now I barely even notice the lessened vertical boost.
Without turning this into another bunnyhop debate, I do have to make a few comments:
The claim that bunnyhopping is "gimmicky" is at best ignorant or disingenuous. If you want anyone to take you seriously, outside of the pitchfork carrying "bunnyhop is gaming cancer!!!11" group, you may want to avoid using such characteristics for the most succesful movement mechanic in the history of computer gaming.
Finally, I don't accept the claim that bunnyhopping is inherently a hidden mechanic, which bunnyhop opponents frequently drag out in lieu of any substantive argument against bunnyhopping. That is a problem of implementation, not of the actual mechanic. It is perfectly possibly to implement bunnyhopping in such a way that it is not only easy to learn, but also readily visible to the player. The problem is that nobody is trying, because of this entirely inexplicable hatred some people have against a movement mechanic that has flourished for decades.
<!--quoteo(post=2032179:date=Nov 22 2012, 06:02 AM:name=fanatic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fanatic @ Nov 22 2012, 06:02 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2032179"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Comments like this unfortunately show that you've completely missed the point. Nobody's saying that it shouldn't be easy to learn; what we're saying is that it shouldn't be easy to master. If you really think that skulk movement shouldn't be hard to master, it's pretty hopeless: How do you expect skulk proficiency to scale with skill levels in the same way as aiming does, if movement (the alien equivalent to aiming) is trivial to master, compared to aiming? You'll end up with a game that is alien biased at lower levels of play and marine biased at higher levels of play. That is horrible game design.
All gameplay mechanics should aim to follow the Othello motto of "a minute to learn, a lifetime to master". This is especially important for crucial combat skills, such as skulk movement. In the case of the current (and past iterations) walljumping, it's more a case of "a couple of hours to learn, a couple of days to master". Sure, you can spend some time finding and memorizing specific jump routes, but the practicality of using those jumps in combat is very limited and heavily reliant on map design.
I don't accept the claim that complex movement mechanics are inherently "frustrating to master", nor do I accept that only diehard players will learn to perform it. If it's relatively easy to learn the basics of the mechanic, to get a small but significant gameplay benefit from it, but at the same time almost impossible to perfect, so that it is always possible to improve, and that constant improvement is attained gradually through use of the mechanic, the players will love it, and it will be a huge benefit to both quality of gameplay and longevity of the game.
Furthermore, you guys are grossly exaggerating the impact of the changes. It is perfectly possible to chain jumps and gain speed with the b231 walljump. It only took me a couple of hours to fully adjust, and now I barely even notice the lessened vertical boost.
Without turning this into another bunnyhop debate, I do have to make a few comments:
The claim that bunnyhopping is "gimmicky" is at best ignorant or disingenuous. If you want anyone to take you seriously, outside of the pitchfork carrying "bunnyhop is gaming cancer!!!11" group, you may want to avoid using such characteristics for the most succesful movement mechanic in the history of computer gaming.
Finally, I don't accept the claim that bunnyhopping is inherently a hidden mechanic, which bunnyhop opponents frequently drag out in lieu of any substantive argument against bunnyhopping. That is a problem of implementation, not of the actual mechanic. It is perfectly possibly to implement bunnyhopping in such a way that it is not only easy to learn, but also readily visible to the player. The problem is that nobody is trying, because of this entirely inexplicable hatred some people have against a movement mechanic that has flourished for decades.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I agree pretty much 100% with this entire post, and not at all with your previous ones :P I think you may have misinterpreted Bitey's post (while it is worded very poorly, I believe he would also agree with your post).
the impact is definitely not as large as I had initially thought. while the same routes are no longer possible, you're still able to keep up some decent speeds.
however, I don't see how this is any better or more difficult than B229 jumping. it's still a skill-less mechanic that is, as you said, masterable within a couple of hours no matter how many numbers they tweak. I just preferred the older one because you could chain more jumps more reliably, creating more interesting movement around the map. B230 is simply repeating the same 2-3 jumps over and over again as opposed to B229's 6-7. the entire mechanic just seems dull and half-complete now.
I guess I'd have to throw in my vote with, easy to pick up on.. but a long road to master. I think that should apply for sure. At the moment it feels like it's easy to pick up on and no time at all to master?
Although I can't speak for my own wall jumping skills.. I tend to use less speed and try to get cover most of the time.
fanaticThis post has been edited.Join Date: 2003-07-23Member: 18377Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=2032181:date=Nov 22 2012, 03:13 PM:name=Gliss)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gliss @ Nov 22 2012, 03:13 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2032181"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I agree pretty much 100% with this entire post, and not at all with your previous ones :P I think you may have misinterpreted Bitey's post (while it is worded very poorly, I believe he would also agree with your post).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Okay, my apologies in that case.
BiteyJoin Date: 2012-05-06Member: 151622Members, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester
edited November 2012
<!--quoteo(post=2032526:date=Nov 22 2012, 03:23 PM:name=fanatic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fanatic @ Nov 22 2012, 03:23 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2032526"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Okay, my apologies in that case.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I didn't really mean to sound agressive, and I suppose if you heard me speak it over maybe the tone would sound more interesting <3
After a few hours of going over the new movement, I will say that it is faster and allows for a more explosive burst of speed. I still have a problem though when it comes to trying to break it down and explain it to people. b229 was straight forward in how to perform the task, it could be summerized in one line of speach pretty easily.
"Jump off walls for extra speed, Chain walljumps for greater speeds."
Now it's pretty hard to say everything you need to do with only one line of text. Another partial gripe of mine, is that I spent that 20 min session on the l2pns2 channel teaching all these 'newer' players the basics, only to have all of that thrown out the windows. Thinking in my head how to reteach people, this new style is alot more random and slightly harder to break down to a basic.
"Jump off walls, then jump to the floor looking down. Then jump back up to the wall, and try to chain 1 or 2 jumps together before ending with a jump pointing to the floor. When you see certain downward areas to chain jumps----"
Unless you can see a better way to break it down, I think this system is just going to be more random and a tad faster.
I would propose revamping the old system, and adding a speed cap. Skulks should be fast, but I think a skulk should never move as fast as a lerk.
<!--quoteo(post=2032862:date=Nov 23 2012, 02:26 PM:name=Bitey)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bitey @ Nov 23 2012, 02:26 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2032862"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I would propose revamping the old system, and adding a speed cap. Skulks should be fast, but I think a skulk should ever move as fast as a lerk.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Couldn't agree more. The current walljumping feels too predictable compared to the old one.
<!--quoteo(post=2032881:date=Nov 24 2012, 01:08 AM:name=Safewood)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Safewood @ Nov 24 2012, 01:08 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2032881"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Couldn't agree more. The current walljumping feels too predictable compared to the old one.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Actually i disagree. I think its far <b>too easy</b> to move unpredictably due to the ease at which you can get both explosive speed boosts and change your direction extremely quickly. I would rank the current system as having probably the lowest skill to effectiveness ratio even when comparing to ye ol days of momentum storing flying skulks. If you do it right, you can also really start screwing around with your animations and make it very very hard to predict/track you.
I'm of the opinion acceleration and instant speed boosts were increased too high overall. Also, 'chaining jumps' now seems to work best by facing parallel to a straight wall and 'spamming' jump without mouselook, which is retardedly easy to master.
@bitey, i think your method that you showed on l2pns is still the right one, or atleast it still works. What we have now is that, but eviscerated somewhat.
<b>@ elodea:</b> Well, the thing is, now you have forward and downwards to choose from, but before, you had every direction to choose from. If you want to go upwards, you have to more or less climb up the wall.
Edit: I don't know about you guys, but I have a hard time preserving a velocity of 10, which doesn't give all that much room for jumping upwards. Most of the time, I'm around a 8.5 to 9-ish velocity. If any of you think it's easy to preserve 10 velocity, or to maneuver like you could do before with a 10 velocity, then I would very much like to see a video of that. I mean, I can hold a 10 velocity for 4 jumps or so at certain places, and with Leap I can keep it up for somewhere around 5 jumps until I get energy back again.
<!--quoteo(post=2032894:date=Nov 24 2012, 01:49 AM:name=Safewood)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Safewood @ Nov 24 2012, 01:49 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2032894"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><b>@ elodea:</b> Well, the thing is, now you have forward and downwards to choose from, but before, you had every direction to choose from. If you want to go upwards, you have to more or less climb up the wall.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> true! but the acceleration/speed boost changes have made skulk a whole different kind of unpredictable now.
<b>@ elodea:</b> In certain areas of the maps, I do agree with you. Where it's narrow and/or a lot of props in it, and with the new updates of the maps, you can see this more and more as well.
Comments
Forcing skulks to stay closer to the ground instead of constantly flying around the map like they had hive1 leap, will also be good for gameplay.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm surprised you like this change.
I believe ns2 needed quite a strong walljump for both combat/traversing the map to compete with similar skilled marines + sprint. Now we are simply left with just slower skulks.
230 walljump isn't any more skillful, it's simply worse.
I got the impression I'm moving a bit faster (without Celerity).
Any bigger and it'd be an xbox.
This change is taking away lots of the fun of playing a skulk. Now it's the marines who are jumping over YOUR head in close combat, for ######'s sake. And trying to wall jump to quickly get from one place to another feels like a complete waste of time. This must be a bug? Fix it.
I believe ns2 needed quite a strong walljump for both combat/traversing the map to compete with similar skilled marines + sprint. Now we are simply left with just slower skulks.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It makes for (crappy) unpredictable combat at higher levels of play, since it's so easy to execute that all the players, at least in the decent European teams, utilize it as a mini-leap.
Personally, I still find the b230 walljump to be too powerful compared to how easy it is to perform. After having played with it for a while, I'm not even sure it counts as a nerf anymore, since the most practical usage (wall-to-wall with no setup time) is actually faster now (9 base compared to 8.5 previous), even though you can't use it to leverage your skulk from one end of the room to the other anymore (due to the reduced vertical boost).
What affects more predictability is the ability to redirect completely your velocity on jump. Maybe they should cap the amount of velocity you can redirect to 5, so that when you go faster you need to keep a smoother trajectory.
<ul><li>Wall jump upward boost increased from 2 to 2.5.</li><li>Wall jump vertical modifier decreased from 9 to 5. (This is probably your problem, but was a weird one and I agree with the change)</li><li>Wall jump forward boost increased from 1.18 to 1.2.</li><li>Minimum wall jump speed increased from 8.5 to 9.</li><li>Maximum fall acceleration increased from 6 to 9.</li><li>Ground acceleration increased from 85 to 140.</li><li>Ground friction increased from 12.16 to 20.</li><li>Wall walk code (completely?) reworked and should feel a lot better now.</li></ul><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Placed here so it's in a more noticeable and topical location
The fact that you can't really chain any of the old jumps together is pretty lame. Regardless of the speeds, the amount of fun had while jumping has decreased even if it 'might' be more effective for speed. Now most of the old jumping locations don't work and your momentum fizzles out before any interesting 'mini-leaps' can be performed.
@Remark "Too easy"
If your going to have a modern game, <b>hidden</b> gimmicky bhops and speed gaining techniques should be removed at all costs. Ontop of that there will never be anything hard about learning a movement technique, as it only takes a skilled instructor to break it down for someone to understand. If something is inherently complex, it becomes something that is frustrating to master and only a diehard player will learn to perform it. The prior build was something that was easy to explain and fun to master, just check out all the people who swarmed the l2pns2 section when I taught the basics.
<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=124841" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...howtopic=124841</a>
When creating a movement technique in a modern game you should be able to explain it in one simple line of text. As long as the technique is easy it ensures the masses will be able to learn it. The fact still stands that current walljumping is still counter intuitive and hidden to a newbies. There is no in game hint of "Jump off walls for more speed" so the feature goes mostly unused and misunderstood by many.
TLDR: I liked the old 229 method, even with a slight speed nerf. It was more fun, interesting, and simply better for gameplay. Regarldess of how close to mini-leap it was, as a feature it was powerful, succesful and <!--sizeo:5--><span style="font-size:18pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->easy<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->.
The fact that you can't really chain any of the old jumps together is pretty lame. Regardless of the speeds, the amount of fun had while jumping has decreased even if it 'might' be more effective for speed. Now most of the old jumping locations don't work and your momentum fizzles out before any interesting 'mini-leaps' can be performed.
@Remark "Too easy"
If your going to have a modern game, <b>hidden</b> gimmicky bhops and speed gaining techniques should be removed at all costs. Ontop of that there will never be anything hard about learning a movement technique, as it only takes a skilled instructor to break it down for someone to understand. If something is inherently complex, it becomes something that is frustrating to master and only a diehard player will learn to perform it. The prior build was something that was easy to explain and fun to master, just check out all the people who swarmed the l2pns2 section when I taught the basics.
<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=124841" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...howtopic=124841</a>
When creating a movement technique in a modern game you should be able to explain it in one simple line of text. As long as the technique is easy it ensures the masses will be able to learn it. The fact still stands that current walljumping is still counter intuitive and hidden to a newbies. There is no in game hint of "Jump off walls for more speed" so the feature goes mostly unused and misunderstood by many.
TLDR: I liked the old 229 method, even with a slight speed nerf. It was more fun, interesting, and simply better for gameplay. Regarldess of how close to mini-leap it was, as a feature it was powerful, succesful and <!--sizeo:5--><span style="font-size:18pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->easy<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think more in terms of skill ceiling. "easy to learn lifetime to master" is the ideal spread for most movement abilities. Marine movement in NS2 really bothers still me for that reason.
All you really need to explain about wall jump is "you jump off the wall and get more speed, and it can be chained together". It's not like bhop where you had this unintuitive structure of keystrokes that, once you figured out didn't take too long to really click... Bhop was good if everyone playing on the server knew it, but there was a good chance that even highly experienced players never broke the barrier of entry. Pretty much everyone who's been playing NS2 for more than a week is trying to wall jump now. Lots of people aren't very good at it yet, but they've started working on it. It doesn't have that absurd "I need to learn to move forward without pressing the forward key? WTF" mechanic. The "hidden" mechanics weren't that destructive. I figured out on my own without having to watch videos a few of the routes and a few basic things like looking up helps.
EVERYTHING in the movement system doesn't have to be immediately intuitive, as long as there is some degree of sensibility to it and the basic tenants aren't throwing away logical assumptions a player would make in favor of completely convoluted mechanics. Wall jumping irks real world physics, but it does it in a consistent enough way that I don't think a powerful walljump mechanic is at all bad for the game. (assuming skulks are balanced to match what they are capable of with wall jumping)
building speed, preserving speed, chaining jumps, aerial dodging etc. is being phased out.
I don't agree with the vertical boost modifier being reduced. If i want to walljump off a wall, it should go in the direction i'm pointing my mouse. Unfortunately it seems impossible to have both freedom of movement and this ceiling drop gimmick in the same system because you start getting alot of crazy air skulk movement that doesn't require alot of skill (due to the high min speed boost floor).
*why ground friction was increased like 100% really puzzles me. We're all still going to do glancing jumps and make the most of a pretty bad movement system.
Comments like this unfortunately show that you've completely missed the point. Nobody's saying that it shouldn't be easy to learn; what we're saying is that it shouldn't be easy to master. If you really think that skulk movement shouldn't be hard to master, it's pretty hopeless: How do you expect skulk proficiency to scale with skill levels in the same way as aiming does, if movement (the alien equivalent to aiming) is trivial to master, compared to aiming? You'll end up with a game that is alien biased at lower levels of play and marine biased at higher levels of play. That is horrible game design.
All gameplay mechanics should aim to follow the Othello motto of "a minute to learn, a lifetime to master". This is especially important for crucial combat skills, such as skulk movement. In the case of the current (and past iterations) walljumping, it's more a case of "a couple of hours to learn, a couple of days to master". Sure, you can spend some time finding and memorizing specific jump routes, but the practicality of using those jumps in combat is very limited and heavily reliant on map design.
I don't accept the claim that complex movement mechanics are inherently "frustrating to master", nor do I accept that only diehard players will learn to perform it. If it's relatively easy to learn the basics of the mechanic, to get a small but significant gameplay benefit from it, but at the same time almost impossible to perfect, so that it is always possible to improve, and that constant improvement is attained gradually through use of the mechanic, the players will love it, and it will be a huge benefit to both quality of gameplay and longevity of the game.
Furthermore, you guys are grossly exaggerating the impact of the changes. It is perfectly possible to chain jumps and gain speed with the b231 walljump. It only took me a couple of hours to fully adjust, and now I barely even notice the lessened vertical boost.
Without turning this into another bunnyhop debate, I do have to make a few comments:
The claim that bunnyhopping is "gimmicky" is at best ignorant or disingenuous. If you want anyone to take you seriously, outside of the pitchfork carrying "bunnyhop is gaming cancer!!!11" group, you may want to avoid using such characteristics for the most succesful movement mechanic in the history of computer gaming.
Finally, I don't accept the claim that bunnyhopping is inherently a hidden mechanic, which bunnyhop opponents frequently drag out in lieu of any substantive argument against bunnyhopping. That is a problem of implementation, not of the actual mechanic. It is perfectly possibly to implement bunnyhopping in such a way that it is not only easy to learn, but also readily visible to the player. The problem is that nobody is trying, because of this entirely inexplicable hatred some people have against a movement mechanic that has flourished for decades.
All gameplay mechanics should aim to follow the Othello motto of "a minute to learn, a lifetime to master". This is especially important for crucial combat skills, such as skulk movement. In the case of the current (and past iterations) walljumping, it's more a case of "a couple of hours to learn, a couple of days to master". Sure, you can spend some time finding and memorizing specific jump routes, but the practicality of using those jumps in combat is very limited and heavily reliant on map design.
I don't accept the claim that complex movement mechanics are inherently "frustrating to master", nor do I accept that only diehard players will learn to perform it. If it's relatively easy to learn the basics of the mechanic, to get a small but significant gameplay benefit from it, but at the same time almost impossible to perfect, so that it is always possible to improve, and that constant improvement is attained gradually through use of the mechanic, the players will love it, and it will be a huge benefit to both quality of gameplay and longevity of the game.
Furthermore, you guys are grossly exaggerating the impact of the changes. It is perfectly possible to chain jumps and gain speed with the b231 walljump. It only took me a couple of hours to fully adjust, and now I barely even notice the lessened vertical boost.
Without turning this into another bunnyhop debate, I do have to make a few comments:
The claim that bunnyhopping is "gimmicky" is at best ignorant or disingenuous. If you want anyone to take you seriously, outside of the pitchfork carrying "bunnyhop is gaming cancer!!!11" group, you may want to avoid using such characteristics for the most succesful movement mechanic in the history of computer gaming.
Finally, I don't accept the claim that bunnyhopping is inherently a hidden mechanic, which bunnyhop opponents frequently drag out in lieu of any substantive argument against bunnyhopping. That is a problem of implementation, not of the actual mechanic. It is perfectly possibly to implement bunnyhopping in such a way that it is not only easy to learn, but also readily visible to the player. The problem is that nobody is trying, because of this entirely inexplicable hatred some people have against a movement mechanic that has flourished for decades.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree pretty much 100% with this entire post, and not at all with your previous ones :P
I think you may have misinterpreted Bitey's post (while it is worded very poorly, I believe he would also agree with your post).
the impact is definitely not as large as I had initially thought. while the same routes are no longer possible, you're still able to keep up some decent speeds.
however, I don't see how this is any better or more difficult than B229 jumping. it's still a skill-less mechanic that is, as you said, masterable within a couple of hours no matter how many numbers they tweak. I just preferred the older one because you could chain more jumps more reliably, creating more interesting movement around the map. B230 is simply repeating the same 2-3 jumps over and over again as opposed to B229's 6-7. the entire mechanic just seems dull and half-complete now.
Although I can't speak for my own wall jumping skills.. I tend to use less speed and try to get cover most of the time.
I think you may have misinterpreted Bitey's post (while it is worded very poorly, I believe he would also agree with your post).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Okay, my apologies in that case.
I didn't really mean to sound agressive, and I suppose if you heard me speak it over maybe the tone would sound more interesting <3
After a few hours of going over the new movement, I will say that it is faster and allows for a more explosive burst of speed. I still have a problem though when it comes to trying to break it down and explain it to people. b229 was straight forward in how to perform the task, it could be summerized in one line of speach pretty easily.
"Jump off walls for extra speed, Chain walljumps for greater speeds."
Now it's pretty hard to say everything you need to do with only one line of text. Another partial gripe of mine, is that I spent that 20 min session on the l2pns2 channel teaching all these 'newer' players the basics, only to have all of that thrown out the windows. Thinking in my head how to reteach people, this new style is alot more random and slightly harder to break down to a basic.
"Jump off walls, then jump to the floor looking down. Then jump back up to the wall, and try to chain 1 or 2 jumps together before ending with a jump pointing to the floor. When you see certain downward areas to chain jumps----"
Unless you can see a better way to break it down, I think this system is just going to be more random and a tad faster.
I would propose revamping the old system, and adding a speed cap. Skulks should be fast, but I think a skulk should never move as fast as a lerk.
-edit Safewood quoting an awful typo T_T
Couldn't agree more. The current walljumping feels too predictable compared to the old one.
Actually i disagree. I think its far <b>too easy</b> to move unpredictably due to the ease at which you can get both explosive speed boosts and change your direction extremely quickly. I would rank the current system as having probably the lowest skill to effectiveness ratio even when comparing to ye ol days of momentum storing flying skulks. If you do it right, you can also really start screwing around with your animations and make it very very hard to predict/track you.
I'm of the opinion acceleration and instant speed boosts were increased too high overall. Also, 'chaining jumps' now seems to work best by facing parallel to a straight wall and 'spamming' jump without mouselook, which is retardedly easy to master.
@bitey, i think your method that you showed on l2pns is still the right one, or atleast it still works. What we have now is that, but eviscerated somewhat.
Well, the thing is, now you have forward and downwards to choose from, but before, you had every direction to choose from. If you want to go upwards, you have to more or less climb up the wall.
Edit:
I don't know about you guys, but I have a hard time preserving a velocity of 10, which doesn't give all that much room for jumping upwards. Most of the time, I'm around a 8.5 to 9-ish velocity. If any of you think it's easy to preserve 10 velocity, or to maneuver like you could do before with a 10 velocity, then I would very much like to see a video of that.
I mean, I can hold a 10 velocity for 4 jumps or so at certain places, and with Leap I can keep it up for somewhere around 5 jumps until I get energy back again.
Well, the thing is, now you have forward and downwards to choose from, but before, you had every direction to choose from. If you want to go upwards, you have to more or less climb up the wall.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
true! but the acceleration/speed boost changes have made skulk a whole different kind of unpredictable now.
In certain areas of the maps, I do agree with you. Where it's narrow and/or a lot of props in it, and with the new updates of the maps, you can see this more and more as well.