Khamm Pro Tip : "My team won't be agressive!?!"
Troubleshooter
Join Date: 2012-11-15 Member: 171559Members
Join Date: 2012-11-15 Member: 171559Members
<div class="IPBDescription">Why shade first is generally a bad idea...</div>Ok, "Pro Tip" might be a stretch as I'm new to the NS community and have been playing NS2 only since launch, but I'm here with what I hope will be some useful insight for players (mostly rookies) that just beg for Shade/Cammo first all the time, or the Khamms that give it to them. This post is about properly motivating your team to do what you want them to do... or rather understanding why the decisions you make in the command chair affects the way your team plays.
I ran into a Khamm last night that was on the losing end of a 2 hive fast Onos build who went shade first. It seems he feels the game was lost because his troops wouldn't "be aggressive" and move quickly across the map when he was handing out orders. (All text, no voice... tsk) They only upgrade he had at this point in the game (first onos T-res drop) was cammo.
Now, I don't know about you all, but what I see most of the hatchling skulk players trying to do is set up ambushes over doorways and in vents looking to pounce on wandering meat-bags. Getting them motivated to do much of anything other than this tends to be a challenge. It's in their nature and this is what they really enjoy about skulking... ambush and lulz. It seems to me that when you give them cammo, you're sending the message that this is desirable skulk behavior but also that they should actually avoid direct contact with anything they can't easily gank.
Friends, I submit that going Shade first is a massive disservice to your skulks, noob and vet alike. My guess is that you instantly drop aggression and mobility by 30% across the board. Not only are you sacrificing speed (celerity) and durability (Cara/Regen), you are encouraging them to slow down and avoid conflict in the early part of the game when skulks have only one real job which is to hunt/kill constantly. While silence is a worthy replacement for celerity with experienced, wall-hopping, skulks... the average pub player tends to scuttle around on the floor and walls for the most part... celerity will actually encourage them to simply engage targets of opportunity rather than try to sneak around for longer than is needed for early game marines (pre-upgrades/shotties).
I sense that many Khamms like to go shade first in this patch because it is normally reserved to the third hive in previous builds. The cammo buff seems to have given people the impression that going shade first is like short-cutting to tier 3 tech and is generally acceptable. They might even have had some limited success with it and can't understand why that success isn't consistent and repeatable. Though others have done a fine job detailing why this is the case, I will do my best to recap the basic points here :
* Shade upgrades are countered by the observatory. Completely and totally. Scans are cheap and spammable.
* Shade chambers do very little in the early game and are redundant with the cammo upgrade.
* Marines know when they are near a shade and generally the only 2 things in that area will be a RT or a hive. Given the location, its not hard to guess where to shoot and still hit something important.
* Ink is a poor use of early game T-res and hallucinations are much worse than just building a drifter.
* Going shade will force the marines to build an observatory. Most good marines will have an obs up fairly early in the game anyway, but when they forget this, you certainly don't want to remind them to build one... and given how OP scan is, you really don't do yourself any help by encouraging its use just before any engagement or for risk-free scouting of your tech.
I'm sure there are other reasons to hold off on shade until 2nd or 3rd hive, but these are the most convincing ones I've seen to date.
To this list I'm adding player psychology. The tools you give your players will almost certainly affect how they play through an engagement. Thus...
* Shade upgrades will SLOW DOWN skulks as they will be weaker and slower. They will have to use stealth to their advantage to win engagements and will shy away from fights where they have little hope of escape or total victory. Silence only alters the way skulks find targets while avoiding detection, so they will be more active on the map but will be practically less mobile in and out of combat.
* Crag upgrades will not affect skulk mobility at all. However, cara-skulks will be more aggressive in combat and have a better chance of inflicting crippling damage on a marine or structure than they otherwise would. (Skulks are free, med packs/ammo cost T-res and trips to armories cost time-on-target as marines need to be out on the map building as well as shooting while skulks only have to nom stuff.) More damage output translates to economic gains for aliens plain and simple. However, one aspect of crag upgrades is that skulks with them know that when they can hear marines, the marines can hear them as well. Quite simply, it forces the skulk to make a choice to fight or run on the spot... either one is as good as the other provided the skulk is constantly seeking to maximize his lifespan. Creeping up on marines or sneaking around doors and vents is time wasted IMO.
* Shift (my preference for first hive) obviously affect mobility and aggression in profound ways. First, celerity will greatly enhance a skulks ability to move around the map, with or without wall-hopping. Skulks tend to be short lived creatures no matter how good you are, marines only have to aim and shoot to kill them with the occasional bunny hop thrown in for good measure. This means that skulks spend a good portion of their time just moving from hive to hot-spot and back for healing. Celerity greatly impacts the efficiency of the early game skulk in this regard. As a khammander, I frequently ask my skulks to respond to events on the map by pulling them from one side to the other. Non-celerity skulks have very low motivation to follow those kinds of orders while zippy ones tend to actually be much more responsive to requests on average... the further you ask a player to travel the less likely they will respond based on their unit speed alone. Celerity greases the wheels of player cooperation tremendously. This applies throughout the game as people recycle back to skulks. Lastly, Adrenalin is they single most useful upgrade that a Gorge can get for most of the game, and you are only doing yourself a huge favor by giving them more energy to build your important structures and defenses. The only 2 life forms available until the match is already fairly mature are custom designed to synergize with Shift upgrades which are investments that reap rewards for the rest of the game.
I think this wall of text has said all I care to say on the topic for now. Hope this helps new alien commanders make the right *cough*shift*cough* decision for their teams and understand more in depth why their players start to act differently when you make strategic decisions about when to get a shade hive.
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TL;DR : Shade hives encourage slow/methodical player tactics. In the early game this means less mobility and aggression are traded for higher kill ratios. Late game Shade hives ADD higher kill ratios to the mix without any trade offs. Players will respond to the tools you give them, and shade hives tools both slow your teams activity down and are effectively countered by the observatory which is practically a compulsory early game build priority for most marine teams.
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I ran into a Khamm last night that was on the losing end of a 2 hive fast Onos build who went shade first. It seems he feels the game was lost because his troops wouldn't "be aggressive" and move quickly across the map when he was handing out orders. (All text, no voice... tsk) They only upgrade he had at this point in the game (first onos T-res drop) was cammo.
Now, I don't know about you all, but what I see most of the hatchling skulk players trying to do is set up ambushes over doorways and in vents looking to pounce on wandering meat-bags. Getting them motivated to do much of anything other than this tends to be a challenge. It's in their nature and this is what they really enjoy about skulking... ambush and lulz. It seems to me that when you give them cammo, you're sending the message that this is desirable skulk behavior but also that they should actually avoid direct contact with anything they can't easily gank.
Friends, I submit that going Shade first is a massive disservice to your skulks, noob and vet alike. My guess is that you instantly drop aggression and mobility by 30% across the board. Not only are you sacrificing speed (celerity) and durability (Cara/Regen), you are encouraging them to slow down and avoid conflict in the early part of the game when skulks have only one real job which is to hunt/kill constantly. While silence is a worthy replacement for celerity with experienced, wall-hopping, skulks... the average pub player tends to scuttle around on the floor and walls for the most part... celerity will actually encourage them to simply engage targets of opportunity rather than try to sneak around for longer than is needed for early game marines (pre-upgrades/shotties).
I sense that many Khamms like to go shade first in this patch because it is normally reserved to the third hive in previous builds. The cammo buff seems to have given people the impression that going shade first is like short-cutting to tier 3 tech and is generally acceptable. They might even have had some limited success with it and can't understand why that success isn't consistent and repeatable. Though others have done a fine job detailing why this is the case, I will do my best to recap the basic points here :
* Shade upgrades are countered by the observatory. Completely and totally. Scans are cheap and spammable.
* Shade chambers do very little in the early game and are redundant with the cammo upgrade.
* Marines know when they are near a shade and generally the only 2 things in that area will be a RT or a hive. Given the location, its not hard to guess where to shoot and still hit something important.
* Ink is a poor use of early game T-res and hallucinations are much worse than just building a drifter.
* Going shade will force the marines to build an observatory. Most good marines will have an obs up fairly early in the game anyway, but when they forget this, you certainly don't want to remind them to build one... and given how OP scan is, you really don't do yourself any help by encouraging its use just before any engagement or for risk-free scouting of your tech.
I'm sure there are other reasons to hold off on shade until 2nd or 3rd hive, but these are the most convincing ones I've seen to date.
To this list I'm adding player psychology. The tools you give your players will almost certainly affect how they play through an engagement. Thus...
* Shade upgrades will SLOW DOWN skulks as they will be weaker and slower. They will have to use stealth to their advantage to win engagements and will shy away from fights where they have little hope of escape or total victory. Silence only alters the way skulks find targets while avoiding detection, so they will be more active on the map but will be practically less mobile in and out of combat.
* Crag upgrades will not affect skulk mobility at all. However, cara-skulks will be more aggressive in combat and have a better chance of inflicting crippling damage on a marine or structure than they otherwise would. (Skulks are free, med packs/ammo cost T-res and trips to armories cost time-on-target as marines need to be out on the map building as well as shooting while skulks only have to nom stuff.) More damage output translates to economic gains for aliens plain and simple. However, one aspect of crag upgrades is that skulks with them know that when they can hear marines, the marines can hear them as well. Quite simply, it forces the skulk to make a choice to fight or run on the spot... either one is as good as the other provided the skulk is constantly seeking to maximize his lifespan. Creeping up on marines or sneaking around doors and vents is time wasted IMO.
* Shift (my preference for first hive) obviously affect mobility and aggression in profound ways. First, celerity will greatly enhance a skulks ability to move around the map, with or without wall-hopping. Skulks tend to be short lived creatures no matter how good you are, marines only have to aim and shoot to kill them with the occasional bunny hop thrown in for good measure. This means that skulks spend a good portion of their time just moving from hive to hot-spot and back for healing. Celerity greatly impacts the efficiency of the early game skulk in this regard. As a khammander, I frequently ask my skulks to respond to events on the map by pulling them from one side to the other. Non-celerity skulks have very low motivation to follow those kinds of orders while zippy ones tend to actually be much more responsive to requests on average... the further you ask a player to travel the less likely they will respond based on their unit speed alone. Celerity greases the wheels of player cooperation tremendously. This applies throughout the game as people recycle back to skulks. Lastly, Adrenalin is they single most useful upgrade that a Gorge can get for most of the game, and you are only doing yourself a huge favor by giving them more energy to build your important structures and defenses. The only 2 life forms available until the match is already fairly mature are custom designed to synergize with Shift upgrades which are investments that reap rewards for the rest of the game.
I think this wall of text has said all I care to say on the topic for now. Hope this helps new alien commanders make the right *cough*shift*cough* decision for their teams and understand more in depth why their players start to act differently when you make strategic decisions about when to get a shade hive.
------------------------------------
TL;DR : Shade hives encourage slow/methodical player tactics. In the early game this means less mobility and aggression are traded for higher kill ratios. Late game Shade hives ADD higher kill ratios to the mix without any trade offs. Players will respond to the tools you give them, and shade hives tools both slow your teams activity down and are effectively countered by the observatory which is practically a compulsory early game build priority for most marine teams.
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Comments
lol... ok. However, I did just hammer out a wall of text on the assumption that UWE isn't just going to let this game die horribly as a result of some sloppy balance.
Regen is going to get the nerf-bat... so I'm looking at this from the standpoint of where the meta will settle for the next few builds. At some point marines will be welding doors shut and sentries could get some sort of major buff which would make shade a much more attractive early choice... but that's not on the horizon yet.
The fast Onos + Regen is just the IMBA flavor of the month. No one has fun with it, so its really not worth discussion IMO. That said, I've never T-resed an Onos before 9 minutes to date because I want at least celerity and cara (228) or regen (229) before I will commit my whole team to a strategy that is essentially an all-in. If that gets screwed up, you just wasted the time of both teams on a go-nowhere game. I think its rude to waste 10+ minutes flipping a coin. :p
But yeah, being offensively expansive with shades can be quite devastating.
But yeah, being offensively expansive with shades can be quite devastating.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Aggressively expanding shades around the map can be devastating to your economy too. They are fragile and expensive. Once spotted, they are going to go down. If the marines are being gulled into building outposts near shades, you won on experience alone.
In short, I'm not saying that you can't get 1st shade builds to work, I'm sure it can be done and I've been on the losing side of these once or twice because the commander doesn't know how the obs works or how to scan ahead of your units. My point is that if you are going shade hive and expecting your skulk minions to be out aggressively contesting the map, you are setting them up for failure. More often than not, the marine commander will know how to use the obs... and you are going to lose map control trying to hide extractors that any idiot knows are there.
Any alien tech choice can be devastating, really... but there are high risk and low risk decisions with varying degrees of payoffs at the end. Shade 1st is about the highest risk path you can take that relies on hive tech decisions unless you are specifically telling your skulks to hold a minority of the map and play conservatively. I prefer to have my skulks out being aggressive, and khammaders that want the same from their troops would do well to read the above IMHO.
TL;DR : There are bound to be instances where shade first is the right choice. The above is offered as general guidance and to provide insight into how unruly pub players will respond to your tech choices.
I've played a good amount of camo first games, we won most of them (pubs be pubs). You can't just run around as a marine with camo skulks on your ass all the time. Not only you force them to go into a group, but even then you can easily pick off the last guy in the back and retreat before anyone can react.
Camo ain't about waiting for a marine to pass, it's about hitting them when they don't expect it. They can easily cover a position just by pointing their guns in a doorway, but with camo they don't know if skulks are already behind them. It's a different style of play, one that seems to elude certain players thinking it's bad, but with camo, 1v5 skulk CAN win. I've done it, I've seen it on both sides, you NEED a GOOD marine commander to handle the situation, something that is quite uncommon in pubs.
You can't really compare Carapace and Camo in a fighting situation. Cara will let you tank 2 more bullets, sure, it's great, awesome. Camo will let you start fights in melee with an advantage. Most of the time you kill the marine without even getting hurt. In a 2v1 or 2v2 situation, just kill the one in the back and retreat. The other marine will ###### his pants. He might even start shooting randomly. Mind games and morale is something else to take account of. Add regen to that, and you can hit and run like a ninja.
Also, Scan is NOT cheap, stop saying crap. Most marine comms will lose the game flat out because they don't have any res to upgrade if they keep spamming scans to ''counter'' camo. As a skulk, I WANT the comm to use scans at the beginning because I know he just used up 3 more res than I'm worth for a CHANCE to kill me. I can just retreat and wait for the scan to go away. A lot of marines will separate into 2 groups, meaning more scans. Are you going to build an obs in every room instead? Early game is important, if marines can't get their upgrades fast aliens will hold the advantage they have.
Nothing stops you from getting a second hive after that. It's not like everyone go celerity or carapace before 2nd Hive, and it's not impossible to hold. Then on your second hive go Crag so that your team switch into Lerk/Fades/Onos.
There's a lot of talking about the competitive side of this. I understand the theories and approve that Shade first in a competitive match is a big risk. Still, it could work. The mind games you can do with camo are far more interesting than with celerity or carapace.
Of course, camo is not without flaws. You need to be able to survive as a skulk and understand how to attack other marines. You need communication which is rarely seen (I mean good communication; Marine positions, number, etc.) in pubs. You are still at a disadvantage when marines go hyper-aggressive. Good marines can cover each other most of the time, but overall that applies to any situation.
It's a style of play worth analysing and investing time into. Don't be narrow-minded. The patch just came out and people are already trying to say they know everything.
Also I don't agree with your whole "forcing" them to build an observatory theory. A competent commander drops an observatory very early on in the game to get phase tech/distress beacons and motion tracking in the vicinity.
Observatories are not a complete and total counter unless you're willing to build one in every single room and spend all of your res spamming scans. If they are spending that many resources to counter your cloak that would be a very good thing.
Exactly,
I hate when people try to tell people to do the same thing over and over. Yes it may work in your advantage alot of the time but I enjoy a game that is always changing and forcing me to think about my next move.
Even if we lose, I'd be happy with a Khamm that tried a different tactic for once.
By all means, if you have a plan that hinges on shade 1st and you have the chops to make it work... so much the better. I think though that most skulks begging for cammo just want to be passive and most commanders building it are doing so out of the novelty of having their "3rd hive tech" up front.
So far I have not seen a successful use of shade 1st that didn't hinge on the marine commander being terrible with scans.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Also, Scan is NOT cheap, stop saying crap.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Once I have 3 Rts as marine, using scans to cover my units while they kill/build an RT is cost effective. The cost of the obs and multiple scans can be build right into the price of the shade upgrade, the veil structure and the cammo upgrade. By the time those scans are comparatively more expensive, they are gaining momentum by securing more RT's. Add to this the cost of any shade uncovered/killed along the way and the scans are actually making the marines money. For every shade killed (assuming 1 scan to find and destroy) the marine gains a 7 res advantage. That 7 res can be put back into prospective-scouting scans to find other expensive alien tech that can be targeted for destruction.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->actually, i like invis whips lol, nothing like instantly killing marines that didnt know there were whips >< just sayin<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Who doesn't. Then again, for that one "free kill" you get in this way, you have to factor in that it cost you a bare minimum of 25 T-res to accomplish. For 2 of these you could have dropped a fade egg that would pay much larger dividends. Hell, you can drop a hive for less than that.
You can place a shade when making some forward crags and stuff, or a sneaky shift. Placing them in base wont accomplish much beside a 15res sink.
You can place a shade when making some forward crags and stuff, or a sneaky shift. Placing them in base wont accomplish much beside a 15res sink.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not really, a lone marine can axe down upgrades in seconds. Even if it is as easy as sending an Alien to deal with him how many Aliens are going to be sitting at base? By their very strategy and builds Aliens need to be somewhere attacking something, not sitting in one place defending. With a shade at your hive it at least makes it harder for ramborines to locate the upgrades unless the commander is willing to scan for that marine. It also means they are more likely to walk right into whips which will ruin anyone's day.
I don't know what more we could have them do, maybe they'd need some costs adjustments to be worth placing outside of what I outlined.
When I get a nice resource income of 5-7 RTs, *then* I start making the actual decision about which Hive Tech to go for. Often it's Shade, so it allows me to plant one Shade at my base to prevent easy egg lock if a marine should somehow get behind our lines. And some at the more important RT locations where I want to assist my team in holding the position by setting up ambushes at that point. If the Shade has enough range to get into the adjacent room, I give them some offensive assistance through walls or build a chain of Shades covering each other during the building process to get cysts unnoticed into enemy territory, so I can get a home advantage with Bone Walls on unsuspecting marines when my team attacks.
Once I chose the tech path, I immediately get them the upgrades and drop the next Hive in a location that I secured with a Shade before.
This works out pretty well because Veil traits are actually the cheapest tech buildings to get. They cost only 5 res, while Shift Tech Chambers cost 10 res per building and Crag Tech Chambers cost full 15 per building. In that regard does the Shade Tech Chamber favour expansion a bit more since I now have 20 more res available to spend on something else than I would have with the Crag path. Once that second Hive is up, I choose the next path depending on what is currently required by the situation. Shade goes really well with Shift outposts somewhere on the map, though. Then it's less about durability of my troops than just zerging the enemy down with fast respawning waves on the front.
If I feel like my team plays too passively, I might give them only the Silence trait first and let the Camouflage be done by my stationary Shades. Don't underestimate Silence in combat. It really has the potential to kick ass because you can drop from a high spot on the ceiling without making any noise, so if you miss an enemy behind his back it won't immediately alert him. And if you keep jumping around him while attacking, he won't be able to estimate your position from your bite sounds either. And in general do I always go Silence anyway as Skulk when my khammander has enough Shades around the map or the enemy has Observatories at most places where I'd like to attack them. Works surprisingly well to not be immediately detected in the enemy base if they can't hear me but only have that white target cursor to follow every now and then.
I've actually once been almost taken down as Exo by a silenced Skulk because I simply did not hear him while firing my guns. Only realizing my health going down and down at the top of the screen told me that something is wrong.
Most of the team then spent most the game sitting on ceilings, sneaking around despite having celerity. Its like they wanted to pretend they had camo.
But yeah, being offensively expansive with shades can be quite devastating.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is SIGNIFICANTLY more expensive than the commanders scans to put an end to it.
In short, I'm not saying that you can't get 1st shade builds to work, I'm sure it can be done and I've been on the losing side of these once or twice because the commander doesn't know how the obs works or how to scan ahead of your units. My point is that if you are going shade hive and expecting your skulk minions to be out aggressively contesting the map, you are setting them up for failure. More often than not, the marine commander will know how to use the obs... and you are going to lose map control trying to hide extractors that any idiot knows are there.
Any alien tech choice can be devastating, really... but there are high risk and low risk decisions with varying degrees of payoffs at the end. Shade 1st is about the highest risk path you can take that relies on hive tech decisions unless you are specifically telling your skulks to hold a minority of the map and play conservatively. I prefer to have my skulks out being aggressive, and khammaders that want the same from their troops would do well to read the above IMHO.
TL;DR : There are bound to be instances where shade first is the right choice. The above is offered as general guidance and to provide insight into how unruly pub players will respond to your tech choices.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The BIG problem with shade, is that every other chamber, to some degree relies on your team being more skilled than the opposing team. Shade gives a massive disadvantage simply if the commander knows how to counter it, and it give you a massive advantage simply if he does not. Your gamble is not that your team is better than the opposing team, your gamble is very simply the weather the commander is slightly experienced or not. It doesn't take a good comm to SERIOUSLY punish you for going shade first, it's very simple to counter when you know how. When you're aliens, shade first allows the opposing team to be less skilled than your team and still beat you simply because you willingly took a handicap. The only player you are praying is unskilled is the comm, and even then, countering shade first doesn't require pixel perfect micromanagement or crack timing. All you have to do is place a scan in a moderately plausible place for most aliens to be ambushing at every 30 seconds or so.
It probably become less effective in big games but in 8v8 it works well.
Camouflage is a <i>massive</i> advantage in areas outside of observatory range. Being able to consistently land the first shot <i>with</i> the element of surprise is something Marines can only counter by expensive Observatories and Scans. I don't know why, but many new players in a shade-first game will spend the majority of it cloaked, even it if means losing res towers and letting teammates fight outnumbered. Other players tend to forget about Observatory placement and will repeatedly charge into a phase gate base alone because they think their cloak upgrades matter with an Observatory around. In general, the best way to utilize early Camouflage is to sneak behind marine lines and target Extractors, Observatories, Armories, and Marine reinforcements. Not every Extractor snipe attempt will be successful, but over time without welders, the Marines will have to reclaim the area which takes manpower and resources. The downside to this upgrade is that it cannot be used offensively if there is an Observatory nearby, or if the Marine Commander uses 3 tres to scan. There are a few unique strategies, like the 2-minute Camoflague upgrade, followed by a Invisible Skulk coordinated Command Chair snipe. (beacon or you lose Obs, Power, everything)
Silence, on the other hand, is a moderate advantage in the early game, but really shines in conjunction with other tech like Regeneration, Celerity, and Leap. It cannot be countered by Marines and is optimal for Skulks, Lerks, Shades, and Onos. This upgrade may not increase movement speed, but it allows quicker approaches without your speed giving away your position. Good Marine players know what careless Skulk running sounds like, and can anticipate when one may appear where they are not looking. You can hold the shift key to hide your footsteps, but Silence will allow you to flank Marines at full speed. This makes it a great upgrade for 1v1 scenarios, but like Camouflage, cannot be used to survive an would-be-near-lethal-encounter.
*edit;
Shades are useful for concealing forward bases and boosting the efficacy of Hydras and Whips. The Ink effect is pretty stupid because it doesn't really effect Marines outside of its radius and costs 3 cysts' worth of tres. Forcing the Marine Commander to scan costs him the same amount, so every ping your hear, think "cha-ching!" Obviously, once the Marines knows about your Shade and kills it, there is no point is replacing it. However, if you place more structures in that location (whips, crags, upgrades), and they have not encountered Marines yet, it may be worth paying 10 res to conceal that area again.
Camouflage is a <i>massive</i> advantage in areas outside of observatory range. Being able to consistently land the first shot <i>with</i> the element of surprise is something Marines can only counter by expensive Observatories and Scans. I don't know why, but many new players in a shade-first game will spend the majority of it cloaked, even it if means losing res towers and letting teammates fight outnumbered. Other players tend to forget about Observatory placement and will repeatedly charge into a phase gate base alone because they think their cloak upgrades matter with an Observatory around. In general, the best way to utilize early Camouflage is to sneak behind marine lines and target Extractors, Observatories, Armories, and Marine reinforcements. Not every Extractor snipe attempt will be successful, but over time without welders, the Marines will have to reclaim the area which takes manpower and resources. The downside to this upgrade is that it cannot be used offensively if there is an Observatory nearby, or if the Marine Commander uses 3 tres to scan. There are a few unique strategies, like the 2-minute Camoflague upgrade, followed by a Invisible Skulk coordinated Command Chair snipe. (beacon or you lose Obs, Power, everything)
Silence, on the other hand, is a moderate advantage in the early game, but really shines in conjunction with other tech like Regeneration, Celerity, and Leap. It cannot be countered by Marines and is optimal for Skulks, Lerks, Shades, and Onos. This upgrade may not increase movement speed, but it allows quicker approaches without your speed giving away your position. Good Marine players know what careless Skulk running sounds like, and can anticipate when one may appear where they are not looking. You can hold the shift key to hide your footsteps, but Silence will allow you to flank Marines at full speed. This makes it a great upgrade for 1v1 scenarios, but like Camouflage, cannot be used to survive an would-be-near-lethal-encounter.
*edit;
Shades are useful for concealing forward bases and boosting the efficacy of Hydras and Whips. The Ink effect is pretty stupid because it doesn't really effect Marines outside of its radius and costs 3 cysts' worth of tres. Forcing the Marine Commander to scan costs him the same amount, so every ping your hear, think "cha-ching!" Obviously, once the Marines knows about your Shade and kills it, there is no point is replacing it. However, if you place more structures in that location (whips, crags, upgrades), and they have not encountered Marines yet, it may be worth paying 10 res to conceal that area again.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Obs is a bit expensive, but scans are very cheap. They also don't need to be used a metric ton, just a few times a minute.
Camouflage is a <i>massive</i> advantage in areas outside of observatory range. Being able to consistently land the first shot <i>with</i> the element of surprise is something Marines can only counter by expensive Observatories and Scans. I don't know why, but many new players in a shade-first game will spend the majority of it cloaked, even it if means losing res towers and letting teammates fight outnumbered. Other players tend to forget about Observatory placement and will repeatedly charge into a phase gate base alone because they think their cloak upgrades matter with an Observatory around. In general, the best way to utilize early Camouflage is to sneak behind marine lines and target Extractors, Observatories, Armories, and Marine reinforcements. Not every Extractor snipe attempt will be successful, but over time without welders, the Marines will have to reclaim the area which takes manpower and resources. The downside to this upgrade is that it cannot be used offensively if there is an Observatory nearby, or if the Marine Commander uses 3 tres to scan. There are a few unique strategies, like the 2-minute Camoflague upgrade, followed by a Invisible Skulk coordinated Command Chair snipe. (beacon or you lose Obs, Power, everything)
Silence, on the other hand, is a moderate advantage in the early game, but really shines in conjunction with other tech like Regeneration, Celerity, and Leap. It cannot be countered by Marines and is optimal for Skulks, Lerks, Shades, and Onos. This upgrade may not increase movement speed, but it allows quicker approaches without your speed giving away your position. Good Marine players know what careless Skulk running sounds like, and can anticipate when one may appear where they are not looking. You can hold the shift key to hide your footsteps, but Silence will allow you to flank Marines at full speed. This makes it a great upgrade for 1v1 scenarios, but like Camouflage, cannot be used to survive an would-be-near-lethal-encounter.
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Shades are useful for concealing forward bases and boosting the efficacy of Hydras and Whips. The Ink effect is pretty stupid because it doesn't really effect Marines outside of its radius and costs 3 cysts' worth of tres. Forcing the Marine Commander to scan costs him the same amount, so every ping your hear, think "cha-ching!" Obviously, once the Marines knows about your Shade and kills it, there is no point is replacing it. However, if you place more structures in that location (whips, crags, upgrades), and they have not encountered Marines yet, it may be worth paying 10 res to conceal that area again.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Obs is a bit expensive, but scans are very cheap. They also don't need to be used a metric ton, just a few times a minute.
The point is, when playing pubs you have to develop your strategy around how pub players tend to play. Micromanaging every skulk constantly is unfeasible, you have to trust people doing the right thing, and what they'll do depends on what upgrades they have. Carapace skulks will be more resilient; that helps them kill structures and marines. Celerity skulks will be more aggressive as it takes them less time to reach combat; this means increasing the number of times they'll enter combat and pushing the front lines further towards the marine bases. In short, Celerity helps them kill structures. A very large number of pub players with Camo just hang on the ceiling, waiting for some marine to kill; others will just press shift and just be slower. It helps them kill marines at the expense of being defensive.
The thing is, you don't win the game by having an awesome K/D ratio, you win it by killing extractors, phase gates and command chairs. On the other hand there's an inexhaustible supply of free, rapidly respawning, weapon recycling marines. If you have the average pub team, you'll actually hurt yourself if you research Camo first.
IMHO, shade is the third hive. In some cases, second, but i never go first for shade. Shade cannot help, if marines are taking doubles and getting turrets and obs there. That basically means, that aliens have to go "naked" there. Facing shotguns etc. Shade does not really boost attacking, but defending and at start, keeping marines in base is everything. Ofcourse, cloaking makes marines nervous, but theres always the scan. If they move in groups, there is nothing to worry.
Shade only for second or third hive.
If a team fail to listen to their Kham, then its their fault, end of discussion.
Two gorges with bile, three skulks a lerk, fade and onos attack can desimate a rein base in seconds.
NS2 = RTS. RTS = Strategy+Teamwork = WIN
I've played a good amount of camo first games, we won most of them (pubs be pubs). You can't just run around as a marine with camo skulks on your ass all the time. Not only you force them to go into a group, but even then you can easily pick off the last guy in the back and retreat before anyone can react.
Camo ain't about waiting for a marine to pass, it's about hitting them when they don't expect it. They can easily cover a position just by pointing their guns in a doorway, but with camo they don't know if skulks are already behind them. It's a different style of play, one that seems to elude certain players thinking it's bad, but with camo, 1v5 skulk CAN win. I've done it, I've seen it on both sides, you NEED a GOOD marine commander to handle the situation, something that is quite uncommon in pubs.
You can't really compare Carapace and Camo in a fighting situation. Cara will let you tank 2 more bullets, sure, it's great, awesome. Camo will let you start fights in melee with an advantage. Most of the time you kill the marine without even getting hurt. In a 2v1 or 2v2 situation, just kill the one in the back and retreat. The other marine will ###### his pants. He might even start shooting randomly. Mind games and morale is something else to take account of. Add regen to that, and you can hit and run like a ninja.
Also, Scan is NOT cheap, stop saying crap. Most marine comms will lose the game flat out because they don't have any res to upgrade if they keep spamming scans to ''counter'' camo. As a skulk, I WANT the comm to use scans at the beginning because I know he just used up 3 more res than I'm worth for a CHANCE to kill me. I can just retreat and wait for the scan to go away. A lot of marines will separate into 2 groups, meaning more scans. Are you going to build an obs in every room instead? Early game is important, if marines can't get their upgrades fast aliens will hold the advantage they have.
Nothing stops you from getting a second hive after that. It's not like everyone go celerity or carapace before 2nd Hive, and it's not impossible to hold. Then on your second hive go Crag so that your team switch into Lerk/Fades/Onos.
There's a lot of talking about the competitive side of this. I understand the theories and approve that Shade first in a competitive match is a big risk. Still, it could work. The mind games you can do with camo are far more interesting than with celerity or carapace.
Of course, camo is not without flaws. You need to be able to survive as a skulk and understand how to attack other marines. You need communication which is rarely seen (I mean good communication; Marine positions, number, etc.) in pubs. You are still at a disadvantage when marines go hyper-aggressive. Good marines can cover each other most of the time, but overall that applies to any situation.
It's a style of play worth analysing and investing time into. Don't be narrow-minded. The patch just came out and people are already trying to say they know everything.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I absolutely agree with this. Couldn't have voiced it better.
One thing I want to add in regards to the main-point of the OP: "Camo discourages skulks to play aggressive."
I don't believe that. When 2 Marines camping a hallway, only retardo-skulk would engage them into the long hallway. So most skulks hang on the ceiling in the next room and wait for the marines to enter. With camo, I can move straight down that hallway. Right in front of their noses. Then I get a good position and attack the one marine that is not covered by the other. Bite Bite Bite Kill Retreat Wait Stealth Repeat. You can play so much more aggressive with camo than with cele or cara you just need to get used to it.
And seriously. Rookies will play bad with camo, with cara and with cele. It doesn't matter. If your argument is really, that you need to teach rookies how to play skulk, than don't use upgrade-orders, use your damn mic and simply tell them.
this is atleast how i play camo... i go invisible only when i'm in enemy territory and then just attack stealthed.
and to my other point, what is the purpose of games ? having fun. If your team thinks shade is fun, then if you have any selfrespect at all you forget what you think is best for your team and do as your team wants.
actually potential of shadehive is WASTED if it's made only at third hive, at that point of the game it's most useless, as marines have resources to spam scan, they have observatory in every tech point, shift and crag hive however lives their full potential even at third hive, actually crag is probably worst as for first hive, 20 extra armor isn't helping skulk more than 2 more shots, regen isn't that good because of low hp and you can most of the time heal full with natural heal.
And if you want to go shade hive and you're concerned about your teammates being too terrible to use cloak the pro way, then don't give them cloaking. Only give your team silence and use a shade in the area of ambush. That way, they'll have both upgrades on a technicality. Either way, don't set your ways on the typical celerity - cara build... it gets old fast. You can be very very aggressive with shades. I wish more khamms would use it.
If you want cloak, have your commander put shades up in key locations. Cloaking via camo is a crutch for bad aliens and promotes sedentary, non aggressive play.
Shade first is very like NS1 Sensory first. Great if the team knows how to use it and the Comm doesn't know how to counter it, while a liability otherwise.