Is mapping with Spark really that complicated?
Maxunit
Join Date: 2005-02-01 Member: 39414Members, Reinforced - Shadow
Join Date: 2005-02-01 Member: 39414Members, Reinforced - Shadow
<div class="IPBDescription">This thing is highly frustrating right now....</div>Heyo "Sparkers",
I tried to do some level design with the Spark Editor, but this thing seems to be the highest type of brood from hell, which I have ever seen...no offense.
I checked out the Guidelines, checked out some infos and tutorials here on the Forums, but I have the feeling, that this...thing wants to frustrate me.
I cannot get stuff done in the Spark Editor.
I have my history with 3D Studio Max, WorldCraft (GoldSource Engine), Hammer Editor (Source Engine) and a wide range of Unreal Editors from Unreal Engine 1 to 3 (from Stable to Highly Unstable) and always managed to figure them out and get something decent done.
But whatever I do in Spark, it does what it wants and not what I want.
Maybe I'm to much used to mapping Hammer-Style for Half-Life 2, where I just drag and drop a brush block, adjust it in size, without accidently touching any other geometry and press Enter and BAM, there it is. No matter if a flat surface or a box or whatever. It just works.
I'm well aware, that this Tool is most likely not in a final stage (I cannot even open ns2_veil properly with it) and I actually miss a few tiny features...like an info, which tells me, what size the piece of geometry has, which I currently have selected..and bit more tolerance on what I can select in terms of edges, before the Editor says "lets select the point or line next to it".
Another thing, which annoys me, is:
I only use the Perspective View (tried it with a 4-Window Setup before, where I had Top, Front, Side, Viewport before) and if I try to create a Face or Line, the tool either goes straight into one direction without snapping to the grid (either on the X, Y or Z line) or it goes BLARG all over the place. Not everytime, but often.
When I tried to follow some smaller tutorials from Community Members, I had hard times to accomplish the same thing, because the Spark Editor acted really weird. I couldn't re-create the content from Evil_bOb1's Tutorials he posted here (as an example):
<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=115823&st=60&p=1922342&#entry1922342" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...p;#entry1922342</a> (Post #65)
Done letting off some steam...heh...steam...
Anyway,
If anyone can give me some advice on how to properly use this Editor and tell me what I might be doing wrong...I would be highly greatful.
Greetings,
Maxunit
EDIT:
Okay, I ranted, let off some steam...I started Spark again, tried it again in a VERY VERY calm way and now I seem to get stuff done...still, the tool is hard to use.
I tried to do some level design with the Spark Editor, but this thing seems to be the highest type of brood from hell, which I have ever seen...no offense.
I checked out the Guidelines, checked out some infos and tutorials here on the Forums, but I have the feeling, that this...thing wants to frustrate me.
I cannot get stuff done in the Spark Editor.
I have my history with 3D Studio Max, WorldCraft (GoldSource Engine), Hammer Editor (Source Engine) and a wide range of Unreal Editors from Unreal Engine 1 to 3 (from Stable to Highly Unstable) and always managed to figure them out and get something decent done.
But whatever I do in Spark, it does what it wants and not what I want.
Maybe I'm to much used to mapping Hammer-Style for Half-Life 2, where I just drag and drop a brush block, adjust it in size, without accidently touching any other geometry and press Enter and BAM, there it is. No matter if a flat surface or a box or whatever. It just works.
I'm well aware, that this Tool is most likely not in a final stage (I cannot even open ns2_veil properly with it) and I actually miss a few tiny features...like an info, which tells me, what size the piece of geometry has, which I currently have selected..and bit more tolerance on what I can select in terms of edges, before the Editor says "lets select the point or line next to it".
Another thing, which annoys me, is:
I only use the Perspective View (tried it with a 4-Window Setup before, where I had Top, Front, Side, Viewport before) and if I try to create a Face or Line, the tool either goes straight into one direction without snapping to the grid (either on the X, Y or Z line) or it goes BLARG all over the place. Not everytime, but often.
When I tried to follow some smaller tutorials from Community Members, I had hard times to accomplish the same thing, because the Spark Editor acted really weird. I couldn't re-create the content from Evil_bOb1's Tutorials he posted here (as an example):
<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=115823&st=60&p=1922342&#entry1922342" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...p;#entry1922342</a> (Post #65)
Done letting off some steam...heh...steam...
Anyway,
If anyone can give me some advice on how to properly use this Editor and tell me what I might be doing wrong...I would be highly greatful.
Greetings,
Maxunit
EDIT:
Okay, I ranted, let off some steam...I started Spark again, tried it again in a VERY VERY calm way and now I seem to get stuff done...still, the tool is hard to use.
Comments
I am also 3dsmax background. Forget what you know about hammer.
People will argue differently but I don't EVER draw a line and make a face with the edges. (ie that evil bob tutorial.)
I deal exclusively with perspective view-port and whole faces. Copy, pasting and extruding them and drawing new ones when needed. Line tool I use only for cutting but it doesn't always cut properly anyway.
A few things to look out for.
Any verts will eventually start to shift from their spot for no reason by the smallest of margin.
You will also get floating edges and verts because they can exist without a face. By this I mean you can delete a face and the verts will remain unless you select all the verts and faces too (double click).
Occasionally you should clean up the mess that has become of this. Marquee select everything with verts and edges deactivated, CUT everything you have selected. Re-activate verts/edges, select them all and delete. Paste what you have cut and you are back.
After this you might also want to select all the verts and weld them together. This will kind of fix any small gaps formed by verts shifting off their grid on their own.
Good luck!
Unfortunatelly texturing that geometry is different story...
I noticed already, that the Texture Tools really lack a lot of stuff.
Is the Spark Editor still pretty much Pre-Alpha? Feels like it :/
Hehe, funny. For me, the line tool is the best friend :-) Although it is little buggy and makes Editor crash often (especially after undo)
<!--quoteo(post=2011865:date=Nov 6 2012, 01:29 AM:name=alibi)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (alibi @ Nov 6 2012, 01:29 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2011865"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Occasionally you should clean up the mess that has become of this. Marquee select everything with verts and edges deactivated, CUT everything you have selected. Re-activate verts/edges, select them all and delete. Paste what you have cut and you are back.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Or you can select all your geometry, put it in a layer and hide. All excess vertexes and edges will remain unhidden and could be deleted. But beware not to have selected geometry in multiple layers, sometimes it let you delete edges that are belonging to existing face.
<!--quoteo(post=2011865:date=Nov 6 2012, 01:29 AM:name=alibi)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (alibi @ Nov 6 2012, 01:29 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2011865"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->After this you might also want to select all the verts and weld them together.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Welding vertexes is good idea, even though that some prominent mappers don't do that :). Only hindrance is, that later modification of geometry becomes little bit complicated. The best way then, is to select faces you want to change, cut and paste them. Then they will have they own edges and become independent of surrounding faces. Then you should clean the excess edges with forementioned method.
Yes, it is. They will start to upgrade it after the NS2 version 1.0 will settle down. Some revolve and sweep tools could be cool...
They have been looking for a tools programmer for over a year now I think. Max just doesn't have the time to make his own Lua compiler, optimize the engine, fix engine bugs, implement new features and do the tools programming all by himself.
Generally, if this Editor gets way more polished, it has potential, yup.
If then even the tool called Radiance from Onos ate me gets implemented officially, so that you always edit in real-time with being able to switch between editor mode and player mode (like in the new Unreal Engine 4 or CryEngine)...would own.
I'm well aware, that this Tool is most likely not in a final stage (I cannot even open ns2_veil properly with it)
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I thought the same thing the first time I opened official maps in the editor, and then I learned about layers and found out that most the map's layers were simply set to invisible. Not saying that's the problem you're experiencing, but it might be the case.
Do you guys usually make all the geometry for a room then move to another? or do you make the rough outlines of a room then comeback and make it complex later?
I am unsure how easy or difficult it is to edit existing rooms to give them a different shape than just a square or rectangle.
Thanks!
I have used sketchup, and maybe just testing for a few days map editors sometimes just to see how they work, but nothing important, so... its so hard to learn mapping with spark?.
Spark its the official tool for designing NS2 maps?
Is there a tutorial starting from "0" for designing a map? i know it must be a very large process that u cant design a map in "2 hours" but just a guideline to know i dont know, how to create a room from "0" and then using that knowledge then be able myselft to try to design an entire map.
And where can i download Spark from?
Thanks!
The editor can be found in the same folder as ns2, and yes, it's the official tool. As for how to make a map, i'm not sure if there are any real guides / tutorials for it. There's a sticky with some videos, but they no longer seem to work (or it could just be on my end). I suppose you could look around on this forum to find the information you need. Also, there is a file called Mapping Guidelines in the ns2 folder. It's outdated, but at page 9 you can find the sizes you should use for corridors and vents so units can navigate through them.
Do know that the editor is very robust and can be a buggy piece of you know what at times as stated by some people. I haven't had any real problems with it performance wise, the only thing that drove me to the brink of insanity is how the grid acts at times (mostly when you work with some rather weird angles). And as i said, the lack of official up-to-date information at this time is a little frustrating.
With all that said, i really enjoy using it. Reminds me from years ago in school when we learned to use AutoCad, i seemed to be the only one having fun with it. ;D
I have used sketchup, and maybe just testing for a few days map editors sometimes just to see how they work, but nothing important, so... its so hard to learn mapping with spark?.
Spark its the official tool for designing NS2 maps?
Is there a tutorial starting from "0" for designing a map? i know it must be a very large process that u cant design a map in "2 hours" but just a guideline to know i dont know, how to create a room from "0" and then using that knowledge then be able myselft to try to design an entire map.
And where can i download Spark from?
Thanks!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--coloro:#808080--><span style="color:#808080"><!--/coloro-->Actualy the Spark is realy easy to handle...it just took me about 3 h to bring up a map running. (just a rectangled readyroom + two Tech-Points)
Of course it isnt my first editor I use. Im mapping since Starcraft and went over Unreal 2, CS (Halflife), Warcraft 3, Cs:S (Hammer), SC2 (Hardcore Editor)...I think I missed some but nvm.
What I can say about the Spark is, I realy miss some stuff at the moment, but that makes it easy to get in the mapping and further more its kinda Alpha-Editor.
When you now want to start mapping for NS2, you should be sure you know strategies of gaming, caus thats the most important. Sure if a map looks pretty nice people will like it, but if there are some imbalanced things the work is for nuts.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
<b>1st you should try to scatch your map on paper and always keep the balancing in mind. Strategic points should be realy thought-out.
2nd dont forget the micro mechanics...you need places to hide and stuff. This gets important when you design a room.
3rd keep enough place for buildings, even in corridors you need place for placing senturys and stuff.
So it can happen that you create a room, work for like 1 day and then you realize "that is stupid" and you drop it.
So think before you do some stuff.</b>
<!--coloro:#808080--><span style="color:#808080"><!--/coloro-->What I usualy do is, I check the original maps and get me some inspiration and envolve my pretty own style.
And just check the Mapping-Manual in the Natural Selection 2 folder. First you should know what a map even needs to be run.
- And Yes, SPark is the official Editor.
- There are some people who explain things, just walk through the forum.
- When you got NS2, you got the Spark. It is placed in the NS2 folder.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
Greez Twixit
So, as its the official tool for map designing, UWE used also that tool for the NS2 original maps? or well, they maybe used another tools apart of spark.
I just want, u know, to start designing maps, to see how everything works and as a hobbie to start doing little things and well, who knows.
I have played since 2002 this game so i know lighting, strategy and so on its very important, this is not counter strike... here you play as a team or you lose, and the maps have to be balanced and all that you said.
I found also a post with videos, but those videos no longer exist, yeah, i will try with youtube also, and will check later at home that NS2 folder to execute spark and that PDF manual, thanks for the tips :)
It took my a while before i realised just how powerful the extrude tool is when used in combination with resize and rotate, before i did a lot more copying and resizing of individual faces which isn't the best way, the other bonus is everything stays aligned, you can waste ages on small details if you're not careful so plan ahead how you can make stuff.
Do you guys usually make all the geometry for a room then move to another? or do you make the rough outlines of a room then comeback and make it complex later?
I am unsure how easy or difficult it is to edit existing rooms to give them a different shape than just a square or rectangle.
Thanks!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Many mappers here do not do that... but I'd argue it's VERY bad practice. NS2 maps are large and insanely complex in terms of the gameplay mechanics that interact within them. It's probably not the ideal way to do things in terms of work flow, but some of these guys are getting themselves into a nightmarish spot where they have gameplay errors in their maps that will take months to fix just because they put the final touches on some area that they find out is completely unworkable as soon as a half dozen games take place on the map.
Is there any way to use something like milkshape or 3dmax to make a map?
<img src="http://i.imgur.com/COMor.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
Rectangles/lines don't stay straight coming off another plane/vertex, it's like all 4 edges have to be touching something else or it tilts.
Also, how do I make a skybox like in source games, I want an open ceiling for most of a map.
To have an open sky first make a box with faces inside, then add it to a group called CollisionGeometry, make it glass textured or put it in a hidden layer if need be, oh also make sure you have a skybox entity somewhere and select the one you like in properties, when something is open to the void it will see the skybox.
I'll try that out with the skybox, I doubt I can get actual skybox lighting though, will have to make separate light entities around the map.