Onos / exosuit balance is completely fine, why can't they just do the obvious and <b>FIX TRES</b> using many of the sound examples of fixes that could easily be applied instead of trying to do something outside the box...
And I assume regen rate is actually a bug, since you can do it in combat? I'm not sure how it would be if that was fixed, still a little too strong I think. 75% of that should be okay. You can argue regen onos is too strong still but carapace onos is still really strong.
I don't have any problems with the possible spamability of shadowstep, blink momentum should be there and a skill ceiling increase for aliens is always a good thing. I don't imagine spamming shadowstep side to side being overpowered when marines get used to it.
I'm trying to understand these changes, could use some help.
<!--coloro:#666--><span style="color:#666"><!--/coloro--><b>- Reverted back to old Hive healing values (228)</b><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> intent: fix Gorges underneath the Hive with a few Crags being impossible to kill? still existing old problem: Aliens take far too long to regenerate from the Hive. a forward Armory (or even a base Armory) has much more sustainability than an Alien fighting underneath a Hive. - toy around with lower Hive healing values, maybe focus on Crags instead?
<!--coloro:#666--><span style="color:#666"><!--/coloro--><b>- Doubled ARC rate of fire, halved damage (fixed now in this mod)</b><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> intent: reduce the "burst damage" of arcs? however, I feel like this is an indirect buff as it reduces the chances of any eggs surviving. possible fix: should arcs even be able to destroy eggs? it feels a little silly to almost guarantee limited reinforcements with a strategy that already places you in safety away from the Hive room. if it's intended, then it should be less random (if your egg spawns away from the Hive, you're safe).
<!--coloro:#666--><span style="color:#666"><!--/coloro--><b>- Welder research time increased from 10 to 15</b><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> intent: address "reactionary welders" from being too effective? example: if your IP gets low enough to warrant welding, you shouldn't be able to instantly grab a welder and repair it before the alien team can get back to finish it off. I don't mind this change, but it's not really that significant either.
<!--coloro:#666--><span style="color:#666"><!--/coloro--><b>- Exo armor changed from to 300/390/480/570 to 400/460/520/580</b><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> possible intent: reduce Exosuit reliance on armor upgrades, making them more viable in the early to mid game? our team has been toying with early exo strategies with varying degrees of success, so I enjoy this change. however, if this change is intended to combat the 6 minute Onos, then it is a step in the wrong direction. bringing the endgame to meet the earlygame is not fun.
<!--coloro:#666--><span style="color:#666"><!--/coloro--><b>- Welder rate reduced from 125/sec to 90/sec</b><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> intent: nerf Welders? we have used Welders in early-game Hive pressure / pushes - with egg spawning, there's not always enough time to kill the skulks, reload, weld your teammates, and cause significant damage to the RT / Hive. perhaps if this is to fix end-game turtling, the weld rate could be different for structures and players? welding players should generally be encouraged because it rewards higher skill play / coordination.
<!--coloro:#666--><span style="color:#666"><!--/coloro--><b>- Reduced shadow step cost from 15 to 10</b><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> intent: ? introduced problem: shadow step is too spammable. requires less skill overall (no need to even incorporate double-jumping to move around the map)
<!--coloro:#666--><span style="color:#666"><!--/coloro--><b>- Increased blink momentum to be close to build 220 - Increase start blink energy cost from 8 to 12</b><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> intent: balance the energy costs of combining shadow step / blink? introduced problem: energy cost is far too massive for blink. if anything, the roles should be reversed (with shadow step being the larger drain on energy and blink being the spammier, small energy cost). it also does depend on how close the blink momentum is, but it's still not quite good enough.
<!--coloro:#666--><span style="color:#666"><!--/coloro--><b>- Shift Hatch now creates 2 eggs, but costs 5 resources and has a 5 second cool down (was 1 tres per egg, no cooldown).</b><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> intent: fix eggs being spammed? Shifts don't even work in the first place (you can't choose which eggs to spawn from). they're also a massive risk considering it takes about a second of focus fire to kill a Shift. I don't understand this further nerf.
<!--coloro:#666--><span style="color:#666"><!--/coloro--><b>- Increased trait structure (Shell, Spur, Veil) mature health by ~20%. Also increased their base health to be closer to their previous mature health.</b><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> intent: fixed structures being too easy to snipe
<!--coloro:#666--><span style="color:#666"><!--/coloro--><b>- Reduced Spore research time from 90 to 60.</b><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> intent: buff spores? this change doesn't really affect anything, as Spores are still flawed conceptually as you can output much greater damage with Spikes, and much more safely as well. this should be addressed first.
<!--coloro:#666--><span style="color:#666"><!--/coloro--><b>- Hive build time increased from 150 seconds to 180 seconds. - Reduced Onos gore range by .5 meters - Reduced Onos armor by 100 (-8, effectiveness vs. Exos and heavy weapons impacted less because armor).</b><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> intent: delay / nerf 2 hive Onos problem: Aliens spend even <i>longer</i> on tier 1 tech, despite it being generally agreed that aliens require two hives to remain competitive. the only way this change can go in is to make Aliens stay competitive with one hive, which I guess is the purpose of buffing the upgrades such as Regeneration and Camouflage. but if those are getting reversed, then nothing works at all. it already takes quite a bit of time with a Gorge, and this is extremely risky unless the entire team is set up in advance to defend it.
Gore range was slightly necessary, but also introduces a massive problem. Onos needs a decent amount of range lategame to compensate for being kited jetpacks. Stomp is a great disable, but it's tier 3 and thus is rarely seen. why can't it simply be only slightly nerfed and then match the animation? <i>that</i> was the annoying part, I have no problem with an Onos being able to easily dispatch of marines from a slight distance.
Gore range is less than Welder range. <img src="http://i.imgur.com/tWs2H.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" /> <img src="http://i.imgur.com/kclKO.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" /> <img src="http://i.imgur.com/pzWTo.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" /> <img src="http://i.imgur.com/u7waQ.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
additionally, I don't see how nerfing the Onos was necessary. it's the fact that it appears at six minutes, not that it's an Onos that is the problem. I understand the relationship behind the armor and heavy weapons, however 100 armor is still significant.
<!--coloro:#666--><span style="color:#666"><!--/coloro--><b>- No changes to Skulk bite - No changes to Lerk health/armor</b><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> intent: reduce Lerks from slaughtering everything in sight I think the extra armor from Carapace should have been kept in. 25 armor is nothing for an entire survivability upgrade. 175 base health was absolutely insane though and I'm glad it was fixed. I didn't get a chance to extensively test the Skulk bite in the previous patch, unfortunately.
<!--quoteo(post=2029394:date=Nov 19 2012, 04:45 PM:name=Typhon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Typhon @ Nov 19 2012, 04:45 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2029394"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->UWE need to stop beating around the bush and fix tres lifeforms and lifeform scaling.
Every adjustment to lifeform hp/armor values has one of two effects: makes them overpowered early game, or makes them underpowered late game. Why? Because marines scale and aliens don't. Aliens need to have scaling HP/armor as the game progresses. Whether this is an automatic improvement based on quantity of hives, or a research option on the hive, or a new structure doesn't matter. They need it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I agree. this ping-ponging of balance and adjusting numbers will never change anything until there is a clear defined early, mid, and lategame progression in the game.
<!--quoteo(post=2029411:date=Nov 19 2012, 05:11 PM:name=NeoRussia)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NeoRussia @ Nov 19 2012, 05:11 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2029411"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't have any problems with the possible spamability of shadowstep, blink momentum should be there and a skill ceiling increase for aliens is always a good thing. I don't imagine spamming shadowstep side to side being overpowered when marines get used to it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> in terms of balance I don't see it as an issue. I see it more a problem of just further lowering the skill ceiling of one ability, while nerfing the other ability into the ground. it also doesn't make sense from a gameplay perspective to have a long cooldown ability use less energy, and a short cooldown ability use more energy.
<!--quoteo(post=2029411:date=Nov 20 2012, 01:11 AM:name=NeoRussia)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NeoRussia @ Nov 20 2012, 01:11 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2029411"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Onos / exosuit balance is completely fine, why can't they just do the obvious and <b>FIX TRES</b> using many of the sound examples of fixes that could easily be applied instead of trying to do something outside the box...
And I assume regen rate is actually a bug, since you can do it in combat? I'm not sure how it would be if that was fixed, still a little too strong I think. 75% of that should be okay. You can argue regen onos is too strong still but carapace onos is still really strong.
I don't have any problems with the possible spamability of shadowstep, blink momentum should be there and a skill ceiling increase for aliens is always a good thing. I don't imagine spamming shadowstep side to side being overpowered when marines get used to it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
my take is that however balanced the current late game, it doesn't change the fact that 228-229 onos is still way out infront of lerk and fade in terms of effectiveness (edit: by that i mean way more effective than the cost would suggest 1.5 fades or an onos - gee i wonder which is better). one could say that the 228-229 build is precariously balanced like a house of cards.
if the onos is more manageable at an early stage in the game, it will theoretically give both teams a bit more freedom with build orders.
obviously at this time it's difficult to tell the whether -100 armor and the range reduction will overnerf the onos, or successfully make it a little easier for marines to manage without 'breaking' the tres onos rush strategy. either way, i have to admit that this solution is more exciting than just totally removing the tres onos - if it works.
The Exo buff is laughably bad, especially when combined with the welder nerf. Is no one else bothered by the indirect nerf to the Exo and overall nerf to Marine durability because of the welder nerf? I can see wanting to do this to make turtle-ing less effective, but it affects the entire Marine game.
Also, the Onos "nerf" needs work. The .5 reach reduction is a step in the right direction at least. I think removing Onos as a t.res option is the best bet, and then adjusting the other forms to compensate if need be. If the Onos-rush is to be a valid strategy, then drastically lowering the Onos' durability or speed during early-mid game should be considered. Maybe an Onos specific research line is called for.
<!--quoteo(post=2029437:date=Nov 20 2012, 01:41 AM:name=lastchaplain)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (lastchaplain @ Nov 20 2012, 01:41 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2029437"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The Exo buff is laughably bad, especially when combined with the welder nerf. Is no one else bothered by the indirect nerf to the Exo and overall nerf to Marine durability because of the welder nerf? I can see wanting to do this to make turtle-ing less effective, but it affects the entire Marine game.
Also, the Onos "nerf" needs work. The .5 reach reduction is a step in the right direction at least. I think removing Onos as a t.res option is the best bet, and then adjusting the other forms to compensate if need be. If the Onos-rush is to be a valid strategy, then drastically lowering the Onos' durability or speed during early-mid game should be considered. Maybe an Onos specific research line is called for.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
i have a feeling that the range reduction could drastically lower the onos' killing ability when marines have obstacles to jink around... i already find it troublesome to hit marines who cat and mouse me around an armory etc.
i'm not saying that this is a bad thing, being able to dodge onos attacks would be kinda awesome, and definitely seems like a good change to make the onos require more skill... but yeah i'm a little worried that onos might be too weak in the beta mod :X
anyway, gonna reserve my final opinions until i've tried it.
I think the "end game marine scaling" is the real issue. It's not that the lerk or onos or whatever is too powerful in the early game and too weak in the late game... It's that the difference between a W0/A0 marine and W3/A3 marine is too huge. We're going around changing everything but the root cause of the scaling issues.
<!--quoteo(post=2029455:date=Nov 19 2012, 06:11 PM:name=Rokiyo)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Rokiyo @ Nov 19 2012, 06:11 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2029455"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think the "end game marine scaling" is the real issue. It's not that the lerk or onos or whatever is too powerful in the early game and too weak in the late game... It's that the difference between a W0/A0 marine and W3/A3 marine is too huge. We're going around changing everything but the root cause of the scaling issues.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> scaling is a really common concept in RTS games. the system works pretty decently for marines. it's only a problem if there's no alien scaling to compensate.
off-topic, but maybe the community should have more input on what the releases are like - I mean tell them what you want to do and see how they (the community) reacts before you spend the time on adding it and fixing bugs?
JektJoin Date: 2012-02-05Member: 143714Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow
edited November 2012
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Reduced Onos gore range by .5 meters<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hallubalujaja! I mean yay!
No changes to marine sprint, marine spawn times, or armory heal is disappointing. And you don't fix T.Res timings by changing health and armor values lol.
The asymmetry between marines and aliens is part of what makes NS2 interesting. Aliens don't just get armor1/2/3 and bite 1/2/3. They get new lifeforms and new abilities. That may make natural selection more challenging to balance than a symmetrical game, but it's worth it.
One major difficulty right now is that the Onos has no 3rd hive ability. A lot of the other lifeforms are balanced throughout the game by gaining more abilities... the onos can't. It's 2nd hive ability isn't even all that necessary since it only works against standing marines, not jetpackers or exos. I think the onos may need abilities that are more focused at it's true role: countering exos and breaking sieges.
The other key to balancing aliens is how much/how necessary different hive upgrades are for a lifeform. The downside to balancing this way is that you may wind up making certain upgrades absolutely necessary and not giving the player much choice. So you could for example nerf base armor, speed, adrenaline, etc. Not the best way IMHO.
<!--quoteo(post=2029483:date=Nov 19 2012, 06:40 PM:name=Sling_Blade)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Sling_Blade @ Nov 19 2012, 06:40 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2029483"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The asymmetry between marines and aliens is part of what makes NS2 interesting. Aliens don't just get armor1/2/3 and bite 1/2/3. They get new lifeforms and new abilities. That may make natural selection more challenging to balance than a symmetrical game, but it's worth it.
One major difficulty right now is that the Onos has no 3rd hive ability. A lot of the other lifeforms are balanced throughout the game by gaining more abilities... the onos can't. It's 2nd hive ability isn't even all that necessary since it only works against standing marines, not jetpackers or exos. I think the onos may need abilities that are more focused at it's true role: countering exos and breaking sieges.
The other key to balancing aliens is how much/how necessary different hive upgrades are for a lifeform. The downside to balancing this way is that you may wind up making certain upgrades absolutely necessary and not giving the player much choice. So you could for example nerf base armor, speed, adrenaline, etc. Not the best way IMHO.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> scaling doesn't have to be done with upgrades. Hive-based scaling makes perfect sense and has clear and defined stages of the game.
expected: higher tier lifeforms are the solution to "scaling"
reality: t-res drops completely destroy that system, and only serve to make every lifeform either A) irrelevant against level 3 upgraded marines or B) overpowered in the earlygame
ZeframJoin Date: 2004-05-11Member: 28611Members, Forum Moderators, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Gold, NS2 Map Tester, WC 2013 - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester, Pistachionauts, Retired Community Developer
edited November 2012
<!--quoteo(post=2029483:date=Nov 19 2012, 08:40 PM:name=Sling_Blade)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Sling_Blade @ Nov 19 2012, 08:40 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2029483"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->One major difficulty right now is that the Onos has no 3rd hive ability. A lot of the other lifeforms are balanced throughout the game by gaining more abilities... the onos can't. It's 2nd hive ability isn't even all that necessary since it only works against standing marines, not jetpackers or exos. .<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=2029483:date=Nov 19 2012, 09:40 PM:name=Sling_Blade)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Sling_Blade @ Nov 19 2012, 09:40 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2029483"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The asymmetry between marines and aliens is part of what makes NS2 interesting. Aliens don't just get armor1/2/3 and bite 1/2/3. They get new lifeforms and new abilities. That may make natural selection more challenging to balance than a symmetrical game, but it's worth it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Shotgun, Jetpack, mines, welders, exosuit, grenade launcher, flamethrower: these are the marine 'lifeforms' and 'abilities'. And on top of all those, they <i>also</i> get scaling damage and durability.
For all the asymmetry in Starcraft, <i>every single race</i> has basic damage and armor upgrades on top of their unique units and abilities.
Aliens don't scale the same way marines do with hives because their lower lifeforms/abilities are suppose to become obsolete compared to upgraded marines. That's why the roles of aliens change considerably throughout the game. Early game a skulk is the main combat class, late game it's basically a suicide class. Lerk becomes a support class with Umbra. Gorge's bile bomb is hugely important late/md game, etc.
Anyway, there's no reason to balance things around tres drops. That seems to be the tail wagging the dog. tres drops can be balanced by cost, just like any other commander ability. You could make more hives make the lifeforms cheaper. Dropping an onos early should viable, but costly if not used well. It should mean a very significant delay in getting a 2nd hive.
<!--quoteo(post=2029527:date=Nov 19 2012, 11:20 PM:name=Zefram)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Zefram @ Nov 19 2012, 11:20 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2029527"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Stomp is a third hive ability, not second.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Let me rephrase, onos has 2 abilities. That's not very much to balance with when most lifeforms have 3.
<!--quoteo(post=2029341:date=Nov 19 2012, 05:45 PM:name=AuroN2)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (AuroN2 @ Nov 19 2012, 05:45 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2029341"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->the best way to solve the shift 'problem' is to remove the egg spawning from them. Wait hear me out And give them to the hives themselves! This is ridiculus, why on earth can shifts spawn them to begin with?! they have echo, that should be your model on how to get eggs elsewhere, hell, they can still echo eggs, yet it costs the same to spawn them...?!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I like this solution. The thing is, shifts used to be able to echo eggs, but there was some bug with it (don't remember what) that they couldn't fix, so they just gave it the ability to spawn eggs instead. Making shift eggs non-viable is a pretty bad though- sure, maybe it makes forward shifts just awful in 6v6 etc., but most servers (even UWE) are set up for 8v8 or 12v12. A hive does not spawn even remotely enough eggs to deal with these player loads, especially in public games where your team WILL die early on in the game. In a 12v12 it is almost mandatory to go shift and spam eggs for your team until you get the second hive up, unless you like listening to the half of your team that is unable to spawn at any given time ask for eggseggseggseggseggseggseggseggs.
<!--quoteo(post=2029535:date=Nov 19 2012, 09:28 PM:name=Sling_Blade)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Sling_Blade @ Nov 19 2012, 09:28 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2029535"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Let me rephrase, onos has 2 abilities. That's not very much to balance with when most lifeforms have 3.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
To be fair, only Lerk really gets three abilities. Xenocide is just... bad, and Vortex might actually be worse.
The alien com I just played with said he couldn't drop an onos without a third hive. If this is correct it is an incredibly inartful solution to the problem of early onos. The problem with early onos is that it is EARLY, not that it comes with two hives. The simplest solution is simply making it not droppable until 10-15 minutes into the game and bam, problem is solved with no other balance ramifications. Now you have aliens who could get trapped on two hives for 20-30 minutes and have almost no comeback solution which is a collateral consequencethat has nothing to do with the timer issues. As much as I have loved ns1 and hope to someday love ns2 the balancing component of the dev team is like a bull in a chinashop...
Edit: They just gave the balance log and "Evolving Onos eggs now requires three Hives instead of two. Onos eggs are a complex matter, and are a work in progress!" No, it really isn't very complicated and what you've done is make it so that Onos will now be incredibly rare in any game that aliens aren't already dominating because only alien teams that have 3 hives plus saved up 75 res will drop them. Very disappointing.
<!--quoteo(post=2029593:date=Nov 19 2012, 10:27 PM:name=SquishyOne)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SquishyOne @ Nov 19 2012, 10:27 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2029593"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Edit: They just gave the balance log and "Evolving Onos eggs now requires three Hives instead of two. Onos eggs are a complex matter, and are a work in progress!" No, it really isn't very complicated and what you've done is make it so that Onos will now be incredibly rare in any game that aliens aren't already dominating because only alien teams that have 3 hives plus saved up 75 res will drop them. Very disappointing.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Aliens win percentage is going to do circles as it goes down the toilet. I think the early Onos strategy being imploded is going to magnify certain other issue's like mid-game alien structure viability and resource lock from Ninja Skulk Marines and inattentive commanders. They do admit it's a work in progress, so this isn't the final cut by any means. This isn't meant to be taken <i>as anything other than me musing on what is current in those notes.</i> The following paragraph is highlighted for emphasis.
<b>It needed to happen, don't get me wrong, but where it was usually suggested to move the Onos to the third hive it was also usually followed by people asking for Marine upgrades to be tied to number of tech points held by the Marines as a balance to losing the only heavy alien unit that can be fielded. Without that balance for Marines, in having their weapon and armor upgrades tied to tech points held (1-3), it's going to be a kick in the groin to the Aliens team.</b>
The above will especially be true when the Marines field Exo's on two or three tech points while the Aliens have two Hives only. I'm not sure pub game Aliens are up to the task of Exo killing with only Skulks, Gorge, Fades, and Lerks even though it's very possible to do so, <i>technically speaking.</i> It's going to put a lot of pressure on the team's Gorges and Skulks more than anyone, and Bile Bomb will become that much more important. This is probably the reason for the welder nerfs, I'm guessing, but we'll see how it works out.
I'm really hoping the Shift egg change doesn't stay in if the Onos is being moved to third hive though. That's a lot to change all at once, and will make it really hard to datamine decent statistical data on what is affecting what in the inevitable change in win/loss ratios. (Not to mention all the various other, more useful, statistics...)
Anywho I'm done complaining about how bad it <i>might</i> be and play a few rounds. I already know I hate the shift mechanic, but maybe with the resources freed up from Onos drops the structures will magically become more useful. (I'm thinking more whip spam with shades...)
Six minute onos is easy to fix: make tres onos eggs require 3 hives. If anything, onos feels slightly UNDERpowered right now by the time you're buying it with pres.
I just played a few rounds as Alien Commander with the new build, and I was floored at how much weaker and expensive the aliens team has become.
Basically TL;DR, There isn't anything the Alien commander can do anymore to help out the team besides Drifters in the early game all the way up to the late-end game. Exo's are insanely difficult to kill now without Onos on a second-hive. The Onos problem in early-game is still around, only now it's flipped onto a later Exo fielding that's every bit as game-ending as the Onos were before. At least Marines can't T.Res Dual-Exo, but the Single is actually quite amazing at flooring Fades, Lerks, and Gorges. Fade damage isn't great versus Exo's, Lerks Spores do nothing (although their needles can, eventually, if no one is welding the Exo...), and Gorges can be 'healed' through with welders even still so I'm not sure what to do other than Skulk rush and pray with needle cover. We've gone from needing to rush two hives to win, to needing to rush 3 hives to win. On maps with 4 tech points, which were already weighted for Marines, it's going to be nigh <i>impossible</i> to win as Aliens.
We've traded Aliens sending end-game units at early-game Marines for Marines sending end-game units at early mid-game units. It's slightly better, but a bit too far toward the Marines advantage here. When combined with early game skulks being stupid expensive to spawn, it's pretty terrible.
Pretty much everything hinges on getting a third hive before the Marines can field an Exo, or you're hosed with no way to really 'catch up' outside of P.Res. It's now <i>required</i> to have someone never die or evolve so that you can get Onos as soon as P.Res allows.
The problem is the Exo's kill your expensive life-forms. If they have enough P.Res to go Onos you might be ok, but otherwise they're probably a skulk now. Ok, so they skulk rush the Exo and die in droves, maybe killing the Exo. As a result, you're out of egg's. This makes it so no one can spawn, which gives the Exo's time to kill the Hive with ease as your skulks finally respawn in a further away hive. If you have strong resource nodes, you <i>might</i> get a few higher life forms in the time it takes the Exo's to get to your hive, you charge again, die again, skulk again, egg lock again, hive dies easily while <i>no one</i> can spawn. All the recent changes funnel together to burn off the Aliens resources in silly ways (like spending hundreds on just regular eggs) while denying them a spawn point anywhere close to a place where the Marines are pushing.
It all makes sense, but I hope you guys like not spawning or spawning only across a map from a hive under attack. It's a big part of the new changes, and they are sincerely painful in game play. With even competitive players consistently losing as Aliens <i>before</i> these nerfs, I think this might be yet another dark time to be an Alien team enthusiast.
Shift Hatch now creates 2 eggs, but costs 5 resources and has a 5 second cool down (was 1 tres per egg, no cooldown).
So eggs are now 2.5 times more expensive and have a timer on them. If egg spawn time wasn’t stressed enough before now it’s going to get bad. I foresee this effectively destroying 32 slot servers and anything bigger.
IeptBarakatThe most difficult name to speak ingame.Join Date: 2009-07-10Member: 68107Members, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow
Shade hive first is how you win games this patch. Research camo immediately and you can constantly take out any marine rt they dropped. There is nothing they can do besides constantly scanning and dropping observatories in every room, which they won't have the res for.
Comments
And I assume regen rate is actually a bug, since you can do it in combat? I'm not sure how it would be if that was fixed, still a little too strong I think. 75% of that should be okay. You can argue regen onos is too strong still but carapace onos is still really strong.
I don't have any problems with the possible spamability of shadowstep, blink momentum should be there and a skill ceiling increase for aliens is always a good thing. I don't imagine spamming shadowstep side to side being overpowered when marines get used to it.
<!--coloro:#666--><span style="color:#666"><!--/coloro--><b>- Reverted back to old Hive healing values (228)</b><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
intent: fix Gorges underneath the Hive with a few Crags being impossible to kill?
still existing old problem: Aliens take far too long to regenerate from the Hive. a forward Armory (or even a base Armory) has much more sustainability than an Alien fighting underneath a Hive.
- toy around with lower Hive healing values, maybe focus on Crags instead?
<!--coloro:#666--><span style="color:#666"><!--/coloro--><b>- Doubled ARC rate of fire, halved damage (fixed now in this mod)</b><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
intent: reduce the "burst damage" of arcs?
however, I feel like this is an indirect buff as it reduces the chances of any eggs surviving.
possible fix: should arcs even be able to destroy eggs? it feels a little silly to almost guarantee limited reinforcements with a strategy that already places you in safety away from the Hive room. if it's intended, then it should be less random (if your egg spawns away from the Hive, you're safe).
<!--coloro:#666--><span style="color:#666"><!--/coloro--><b>- Welder research time increased from 10 to 15</b><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
intent: address "reactionary welders" from being too effective?
example: if your IP gets low enough to warrant welding, you shouldn't be able to instantly grab a welder and repair it before the alien team can get back to finish it off.
I don't mind this change, but it's not really that significant either.
<!--coloro:#666--><span style="color:#666"><!--/coloro--><b>- Exo armor changed from to 300/390/480/570 to 400/460/520/580</b><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
possible intent: reduce Exosuit reliance on armor upgrades, making them more viable in the early to mid game?
our team has been toying with early exo strategies with varying degrees of success, so I enjoy this change.
however, if this change is intended to combat the 6 minute Onos, then it is a step in the wrong direction. bringing the endgame to meet the earlygame is not fun.
<!--coloro:#666--><span style="color:#666"><!--/coloro--><b>- Welder rate reduced from 125/sec to 90/sec</b><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
intent: nerf Welders?
we have used Welders in early-game Hive pressure / pushes - with egg spawning, there's not always enough time to kill the skulks, reload, weld your teammates, and cause significant damage to the RT / Hive.
perhaps if this is to fix end-game turtling, the weld rate could be different for structures and players? welding players should generally be encouraged because it rewards higher skill play / coordination.
<!--coloro:#666--><span style="color:#666"><!--/coloro--><b>- Reduced shadow step cost from 15 to 10</b><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
intent: ?
introduced problem: shadow step is too spammable. requires less skill overall (no need to even incorporate double-jumping to move around the map)
<!--coloro:#666--><span style="color:#666"><!--/coloro--><b>- Increased blink momentum to be close to build 220
- Increase start blink energy cost from 8 to 12</b><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
intent: balance the energy costs of combining shadow step / blink?
introduced problem: energy cost is far too massive for blink. if anything, the roles should be reversed (with shadow step being the larger drain on energy and blink being the spammier, small energy cost). it also does depend on how close the blink momentum is, but it's still not quite good enough.
<!--coloro:#666--><span style="color:#666"><!--/coloro--><b>- Shift Hatch now creates 2 eggs, but costs 5 resources and has a 5 second cool down (was 1 tres per egg, no cooldown).</b><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
intent: fix eggs being spammed?
Shifts don't even work in the first place (you can't choose which eggs to spawn from). they're also a massive risk considering it takes about a second of focus fire to kill a Shift. I don't understand this further nerf.
<!--coloro:#666--><span style="color:#666"><!--/coloro--><b>- Increased trait structure (Shell, Spur, Veil) mature health by ~20%. Also increased their base health to be closer to their previous mature health.</b><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
intent: fixed structures being too easy to snipe
<!--coloro:#666--><span style="color:#666"><!--/coloro--><b>- Reduced Spore research time from 90 to 60.</b><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
intent: buff spores?
this change doesn't really affect anything, as Spores are still flawed conceptually as you can output much greater damage with Spikes, and much more safely as well. this should be addressed first.
<!--coloro:#666--><span style="color:#666"><!--/coloro--><b>- Hive build time increased from 150 seconds to 180 seconds.
- Reduced Onos gore range by .5 meters
- Reduced Onos armor by 100 (-8, effectiveness vs. Exos and heavy weapons impacted less because armor).</b><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
intent: delay / nerf 2 hive Onos
problem: Aliens spend even <i>longer</i> on tier 1 tech, despite it being generally agreed that aliens require two hives to remain competitive.
the only way this change can go in is to make Aliens stay competitive with one hive, which I guess is the purpose of buffing the upgrades such as Regeneration and Camouflage. but if those are getting reversed, then nothing works at all. it already takes quite a bit of time with a Gorge, and this is extremely risky unless the entire team is set up in advance to defend it.
Gore range was slightly necessary, but also introduces a massive problem. Onos needs a decent amount of range lategame to compensate for being kited jetpacks. Stomp is a great disable, but it's tier 3 and thus is rarely seen. why can't it simply be only slightly nerfed and then match the animation? <i>that</i> was the annoying part, I have no problem with an Onos being able to easily dispatch of marines from a slight distance.
Gore range is less than Welder range.
<img src="http://i.imgur.com/tWs2H.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
<img src="http://i.imgur.com/kclKO.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
<img src="http://i.imgur.com/pzWTo.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
<img src="http://i.imgur.com/u7waQ.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
additionally, I don't see how nerfing the Onos was necessary. it's the fact that it appears at six minutes, not that it's an Onos that is the problem. I understand the relationship behind the armor and heavy weapons, however 100 armor is still significant.
<!--coloro:#666--><span style="color:#666"><!--/coloro--><b>- No changes to Skulk bite
- No changes to Lerk health/armor</b><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
intent: reduce Lerks from slaughtering everything in sight
I think the extra armor from Carapace should have been kept in. 25 armor is nothing for an entire survivability upgrade. 175 base health was absolutely insane though and I'm glad it was fixed.
I didn't get a chance to extensively test the Skulk bite in the previous patch, unfortunately.
<!--quoteo(post=2029394:date=Nov 19 2012, 04:45 PM:name=Typhon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Typhon @ Nov 19 2012, 04:45 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2029394"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->UWE need to stop beating around the bush and fix tres lifeforms and lifeform scaling.
Every adjustment to lifeform hp/armor values has one of two effects: makes them overpowered early game, or makes them underpowered late game. Why? Because marines scale and aliens don't. Aliens need to have scaling HP/armor as the game progresses. Whether this is an automatic improvement based on quantity of hives, or a research option on the hive, or a new structure doesn't matter. They need it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree. this ping-ponging of balance and adjusting numbers will never change anything until there is a clear defined early, mid, and lategame progression in the game.
<!--quoteo(post=2029411:date=Nov 19 2012, 05:11 PM:name=NeoRussia)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NeoRussia @ Nov 19 2012, 05:11 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2029411"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't have any problems with the possible spamability of shadowstep, blink momentum should be there and a skill ceiling increase for aliens is always a good thing. I don't imagine spamming shadowstep side to side being overpowered when marines get used to it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
in terms of balance I don't see it as an issue. I see it more a problem of just further lowering the skill ceiling of one ability, while nerfing the other ability into the ground.
it also doesn't make sense from a gameplay perspective to have a long cooldown ability use less energy, and a short cooldown ability use more energy.
And I assume regen rate is actually a bug, since you can do it in combat? I'm not sure how it would be if that was fixed, still a little too strong I think. 75% of that should be okay. You can argue regen onos is too strong still but carapace onos is still really strong.
I don't have any problems with the possible spamability of shadowstep, blink momentum should be there and a skill ceiling increase for aliens is always a good thing. I don't imagine spamming shadowstep side to side being overpowered when marines get used to it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
my take is that however balanced the current late game, it doesn't change the fact that 228-229 onos is still way out infront of lerk and fade in terms of effectiveness (edit: by that i mean way more effective than the cost would suggest 1.5 fades or an onos - gee i wonder which is better). one could say that the 228-229 build is precariously balanced like a house of cards.
if the onos is more manageable at an early stage in the game, it will theoretically give both teams a bit more freedom with build orders.
obviously at this time it's difficult to tell the whether -100 armor and the range reduction will overnerf the onos, or successfully make it a little easier for marines to manage without 'breaking' the tres onos rush strategy. either way, i have to admit that this solution is more exciting than just totally removing the tres onos - if it works.
Also, the Onos "nerf" needs work. The .5 reach reduction is a step in the right direction at least. I think removing Onos as a t.res option is the best bet, and then adjusting the other forms to compensate if need be. If the Onos-rush is to be a valid strategy, then drastically lowering the Onos' durability or speed during early-mid game should be considered. Maybe an Onos specific research line is called for.
Also, the Onos "nerf" needs work. The .5 reach reduction is a step in the right direction at least. I think removing Onos as a t.res option is the best bet, and then adjusting the other forms to compensate if need be. If the Onos-rush is to be a valid strategy, then drastically lowering the Onos' durability or speed during early-mid game should be considered. Maybe an Onos specific research line is called for.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
i have a feeling that the range reduction could drastically lower the onos' killing ability when marines have obstacles to jink around... i already find it troublesome to hit marines who cat and mouse me around an armory etc.
i'm not saying that this is a bad thing, being able to dodge onos attacks would be kinda awesome, and definitely seems like a good change to make the onos require more skill... but yeah i'm a little worried that onos might be too weak in the beta mod :X
anyway, gonna reserve my final opinions until i've tried it.
I mean I understand that would be an issue for the marines in NS1 but in NS2 both sides have their own res pool...
scaling is a really common concept in RTS games. the system works pretty decently for marines. it's only a problem if there's no alien scaling to compensate.
so it's a problem :P
Hallubalujaja!
I mean yay!
No changes to marine sprint, marine spawn times, or armory heal is disappointing. And you don't fix T.Res timings by changing health and armor values lol.
One major difficulty right now is that the Onos has no 3rd hive ability. A lot of the other lifeforms are balanced throughout the game by gaining more abilities... the onos can't. It's 2nd hive ability isn't even all that necessary since it only works against standing marines, not jetpackers or exos. I think the onos may need abilities that are more focused at it's true role: countering exos and breaking sieges.
The other key to balancing aliens is how much/how necessary different hive upgrades are for a lifeform. The downside to balancing this way is that you may wind up making certain upgrades absolutely necessary and not giving the player much choice. So you could for example nerf base armor, speed, adrenaline, etc. Not the best way IMHO.
One major difficulty right now is that the Onos has no 3rd hive ability. A lot of the other lifeforms are balanced throughout the game by gaining more abilities... the onos can't. It's 2nd hive ability isn't even all that necessary since it only works against standing marines, not jetpackers or exos. I think the onos may need abilities that are more focused at it's true role: countering exos and breaking sieges.
The other key to balancing aliens is how much/how necessary different hive upgrades are for a lifeform. The downside to balancing this way is that you may wind up making certain upgrades absolutely necessary and not giving the player much choice. So you could for example nerf base armor, speed, adrenaline, etc. Not the best way IMHO.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
scaling doesn't have to be done with upgrades. Hive-based scaling makes perfect sense and has clear and defined stages of the game.
expected: higher tier lifeforms are the solution to "scaling"
reality: t-res drops completely destroy that system, and only serve to make every lifeform either A) irrelevant against level 3 upgraded marines or B) overpowered in the earlygame
Stomp is a third hive ability, not second.
Shotgun, Jetpack, mines, welders, exosuit, grenade launcher, flamethrower: these are the marine 'lifeforms' and 'abilities'. And on top of all those, they <i>also</i> get scaling damage and durability.
For all the asymmetry in Starcraft, <i>every single race</i> has basic damage and armor upgrades on top of their unique units and abilities.
Anyway, there's no reason to balance things around tres drops. That seems to be the tail wagging the dog. tres drops can be balanced by cost, just like any other commander ability. You could make more hives make the lifeforms cheaper. Dropping an onos early should viable, but costly if not used well. It should mean a very significant delay in getting a 2nd hive.
Let me rephrase, onos has 2 abilities. That's not very much to balance with when most lifeforms have 3.
Wait hear me out
And give them to the hives themselves! This is ridiculus, why on earth can shifts spawn them to begin with?! they have echo, that should be your model on how to get eggs elsewhere, hell, they can still echo eggs, yet it costs the same to spawn them...?!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I like this solution. The thing is, shifts used to be able to echo eggs, but there was some bug with it (don't remember what) that they couldn't fix, so they just gave it the ability to spawn eggs instead. Making shift eggs non-viable is a pretty bad though- sure, maybe it makes forward shifts just awful in 6v6 etc., but most servers (even UWE) are set up for 8v8 or 12v12. A hive does not spawn even remotely enough eggs to deal with these player loads, especially in public games where your team WILL die early on in the game. In a 12v12 it is almost mandatory to go shift and spam eggs for your team until you get the second hive up, unless you like listening to the half of your team that is unable to spawn at any given time ask for eggseggseggseggseggseggseggseggs.
<!--quoteo(post=2029535:date=Nov 19 2012, 09:28 PM:name=Sling_Blade)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Sling_Blade @ Nov 19 2012, 09:28 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2029535"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Let me rephrase, onos has 2 abilities. That's not very much to balance with when most lifeforms have 3.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
To be fair, only Lerk really gets three abilities. Xenocide is just... bad, and Vortex might actually be worse.
Edit: They just gave the balance log and "Evolving Onos eggs now requires three Hives instead of two. Onos eggs are a complex matter, and are a work in progress!" No, it really isn't very complicated and what you've done is make it so that Onos will now be incredibly rare in any game that aliens aren't already dominating because only alien teams that have 3 hives plus saved up 75 res will drop them. Very disappointing.
But I'm still happy for a new patch, I'm always happy for a new patches. :D
Aliens win percentage is going to do circles as it goes down the toilet. I think the early Onos strategy being imploded is going to magnify certain other issue's like mid-game alien structure viability and resource lock from Ninja Skulk Marines and inattentive commanders. They do admit it's a work in progress, so this isn't the final cut by any means. This isn't meant to be taken <i>as anything other than me musing on what is current in those notes.</i> The following paragraph is highlighted for emphasis.
<b>It needed to happen, don't get me wrong, but where it was usually suggested to move the Onos to the third hive it was also usually followed by people asking for Marine upgrades to be tied to number of tech points held by the Marines as a balance to losing the only heavy alien unit that can be fielded. Without that balance for Marines, in having their weapon and armor upgrades tied to tech points held (1-3), it's going to be a kick in the groin to the Aliens team.</b>
The above will especially be true when the Marines field Exo's on two or three tech points while the Aliens have two Hives only. I'm not sure pub game Aliens are up to the task of Exo killing with only Skulks, Gorge, Fades, and Lerks even though it's very possible to do so, <i>technically speaking.</i> It's going to put a lot of pressure on the team's Gorges and Skulks more than anyone, and Bile Bomb will become that much more important. This is probably the reason for the welder nerfs, I'm guessing, but we'll see how it works out.
I'm really hoping the Shift egg change doesn't stay in if the Onos is being moved to third hive though. That's a lot to change all at once, and will make it really hard to datamine decent statistical data on what is affecting what in the inevitable change in win/loss ratios. (Not to mention all the various other, more useful, statistics...)
Anywho I'm done complaining about how bad it <i>might</i> be and play a few rounds. I already know I hate the shift mechanic, but maybe with the resources freed up from Onos drops the structures will magically become more useful. (I'm thinking more whip spam with shades...)
What, <i>it could happen!</i>
EDIT: LMAO@me, they just did that with 230.
buy
cost is too high
and we still need to fix the egg lock problem with high player count
with shift changed + longer hive times
big servers are gona die for aliens
Basically TL;DR, There isn't anything the Alien commander can do anymore to help out the team besides Drifters in the early game all the way up to the late-end game. Exo's are insanely difficult to kill now without Onos on a second-hive. The Onos problem in early-game is still around, only now it's flipped onto a later Exo fielding that's every bit as game-ending as the Onos were before. At least Marines can't T.Res Dual-Exo, but the Single is actually quite amazing at flooring Fades, Lerks, and Gorges. Fade damage isn't great versus Exo's, Lerks Spores do nothing (although their needles can, eventually, if no one is welding the Exo...), and Gorges can be 'healed' through with welders even still so I'm not sure what to do other than Skulk rush and pray with needle cover. We've gone from needing to rush two hives to win, to needing to rush 3 hives to win. On maps with 4 tech points, which were already weighted for Marines, it's going to be nigh <i>impossible</i> to win as Aliens.
We've traded Aliens sending end-game units at early-game Marines for Marines sending end-game units at early mid-game units. It's slightly better, but a bit too far toward the Marines advantage here. When combined with early game skulks being stupid expensive to spawn, it's pretty terrible.
Pretty much everything hinges on getting a third hive before the Marines can field an Exo, or you're hosed with no way to really 'catch up' outside of P.Res. It's now <i>required</i> to have someone never die or evolve so that you can get Onos as soon as P.Res allows.
The problem is the Exo's kill your expensive life-forms. If they have enough P.Res to go Onos you might be ok, but otherwise they're probably a skulk now. Ok, so they skulk rush the Exo and die in droves, maybe killing the Exo. As a result, you're out of egg's. This makes it so no one can spawn, which gives the Exo's time to kill the Hive with ease as your skulks finally respawn in a further away hive. If you have strong resource nodes, you <i>might</i> get a few higher life forms in the time it takes the Exo's to get to your hive, you charge again, die again, skulk again, egg lock again, hive dies easily while <i>no one</i> can spawn. All the recent changes funnel together to burn off the Aliens resources in silly ways (like spending hundreds on just regular eggs) while denying them a spawn point anywhere close to a place where the Marines are pushing.
It all makes sense, but I hope you guys like not spawning or spawning only across a map from a hive under attack. It's a big part of the new changes, and they are sincerely painful in game play. With even competitive players consistently losing as Aliens <i>before</i> these nerfs, I think this might be yet another dark time to be an Alien team enthusiast.
So eggs are now 2.5 times more expensive and have a timer on them. If egg spawn time wasn’t stressed enough before now it’s going to get bad. I foresee this effectively destroying 32 slot servers and anything bigger.