moultanoCreator of ns_shiva.Join Date: 2002-12-14Member: 10806Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Gold, NS2 Community Developer, Pistachionauts
edited November 2012
<!--quoteo(post=2023425:date=Nov 14 2012, 10:47 AM:name=SabaHell)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SabaHell @ Nov 14 2012, 10:47 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2023425"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Adrenaline is the training wheels for Lerks. You need a downside for not getting a movement upgrade. Instead of making celerity completely useless on the Lerk.. how about you learn to manage the energy pool you have and make use of forward shifts?
Everyone keeps saying that Lerks are expensive. Laughable. If you have more than 2 harvesters right off the bat, then it really doesn't take long for you to gain the 15 resources required to Lerk. Usually about 3-4 minutes if you're not constantly dying as a skulk. Takes about 5-8 minutes depending on how bad you're losing as a team to regain that 30 resources. In a usual game for me I usualy always have enough to relerk unless I got extremely greedy.
The only thing I see as expensive is the late game lerk. By then I'd have saved enough to onos or fade.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
My goal here was to increase the number of plausible openings to the game so that spores get researched as more than an afterthought. Do you have other ideas for how that could be accomplished? I feel like lerk has the potential to increase the variety in the early game substantially with a little tweaking. How would you accomplish that?
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->As I said earlier (and I think SabaHell said it as well), reducing the Res cost of the Lerk has already been tried. And by the way, it causes the map to be overpopulated with lerks very quickly.
I'm not saying what I think will happen, I'm telling you it's been tried, and that's exactly what happened. Hold whatever opinion you want, however.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What does overpopulated mean? If the whole team goes lerk is that actually a bad thing? I would love for that to be a viable alternative strategy.
<!--quoteo(post=2023838:date=Nov 14 2012, 04:10 PM:name=moultano)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (moultano @ Nov 14 2012, 04:10 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2023838"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->My goal here was to increase the number of plausible openings to the game so that spores get researched as more than an afterthought. Do you have other ideas for how that could be accomplished? I feel like lerk has the potential to increase the variety in the early game substantially with a little tweaking. How would you accomplish that?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think moving leap, spores, and maybe bile bomb to hive 1 would greatly improve the variety of alien opening build orders.
Lerk is in a good space right now. It is really powerful. He gets skipped sometimes because spore is what makes him good in the mid game, but leap, blink, onos egg, and bile bomb usually need to be prioritized because the alien team can't hold RTs, assault phase gates or deal with ARCs if they don't pick up at least two of the other hive 2 upgrades.
Basically, most of the time the alien team needs to spend 40 res for fast hive, 25 for leap, 25 for one upgrade, at minimum before they can even think about getting spores. If you could research spores or leap at hive one, you could viably delay hive 2 in favor of holding more res nodes.
Yes, make the lerk cheaper. So i can start winning games by the 6 minute mark.
It honestly doesn't need to change. If i ever die, i always have enough res to re-lerk anyways. The marine team isn't strong enough to fight earlier lerks and increasing evolution time to compensate would just annoy people
The only change i would consider at this point in time is making flaps cost slightly less energy. Playing at low energy becomes so disproportionately wonky its ridiculous.
<!--quoteo(post=2023838:date=Nov 14 2012, 07:10 PM:name=moultano)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (moultano @ Nov 14 2012, 07:10 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2023838"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What does overpopulated mean? If the whole team goes lerk is that actually a bad thing? I would love for that to be a viable alternative strategy.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
As far as I know it was decided that yes, that is very much a bad thing to have happen so early in the game.
A team of Lerks isn't bad. A team of Lerk's 3 minutes into the game however is.
You may call it opening up more viable early game options, but it will create is an atmosphere of "early lerks too strong, needs to be nerfed" and the already terrible late game scaling of the Lerk will become worse as they attempt to soften its early game impact ot account for there suddenly being a horde of them rather than 2-3.
<!--quoteo(post=2023882:date=Nov 14 2012, 07:41 PM:name=RedDragon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RedDragon @ Nov 14 2012, 07:41 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2023882"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->As far as I know it was decided that yes, that is very much a bad thing to have happen so early in the game.
A team of Lerks isn't bad. A team of Lerk's 3 minutes into the game however is.
You may call it opening up more viable early game options, but it will create is an atmosphere of "early lerks too strong, needs to be nerfed" and the already terrible late game scaling of the Lerk will become worse as they attempt to soften its early game impact ot account for there suddenly being a horde of them rather than 2-3.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree with this 100%
Really the bottom line of this thread has been stated many times over.
Lower the Pres - Tried, and failed Learn how to play the Lerk more effectively and you will live longer, and not feel as squishy
The only thing is truly an issue is spores. Even UWE has said they are not sure how to balance this, seeing as spikes work great for a T1 ability, where as spores also work great for a T1 ability (T1 being Tier 1...first set of abilities)
I personally think other then how expensive spores are (maybe lower it slightly) the lerk is pretty much perfectly balanced...they are great early, mid, and late...just have to watch how you play them, as with any class.
ArgathorJoin Date: 2011-07-18Member: 110942Members, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=2023910:date=Nov 15 2012, 12:59 AM:name=RedDragon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RedDragon @ Nov 15 2012, 12:59 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2023910"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Go watch SabaHell's stream, and observe what happens when someone who knows how to Lerk gets one in the early game.
Imagine a whole team of SabaHell's going Lerk 2-3 minutes into the game. It will be a slaughter.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Experienced players pub stomp no matter what weapon/lifeform they use.
moultanoCreator of ns_shiva.Join Date: 2002-12-14Member: 10806Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Gold, NS2 Community Developer, Pistachionauts
<!--quoteo(post=2023856:date=Nov 14 2012, 04:22 PM:name=Katana-)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Katana- @ Nov 14 2012, 04:22 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2023856"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think moving leap, spores, and maybe bile bomb to hive 1 would greatly improve the variety of alien opening build orders.
Lerk is in a good space right now. It is really powerful. He gets skipped sometimes because spore is what makes him good in the mid game, but leap, blink, onos egg, and bile bomb usually need to be prioritized because the alien team can't hold RTs, assault phase gates or deal with ARCs if they don't pick up at least two of the other hive 2 upgrades.
Basically, most of the time the alien team needs to spend 40 res for fast hive, 25 for leap, 25 for one upgrade, at minimum before they can even think about getting spores. If you could research spores or leap at hive one, you could viably delay hive 2 in favor of holding more res nodes.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I wonder about moving spores and blink to hive 1 instead of spores and leap. This would make getting a hive much more of a tradeoff between investing in upgrades and investing in lifeforms. Having just-spawned skulks able to leap is powerful enough that it seems appropriate to tie to two hives, but fades and lerks are delayed enough that this seems less risky.
As someone who has spent 90% of his non-skulk play time as Lerk, I can tell you all that Lerks are NOT terrible. Let me lay out a couple of facts.
1. Spikes do 13 damage per hit. That's a w3 Assault Rifle with unlimited ammo, albeit at a significantly lower rate of fire. The damage adds up very quickly. It requires learning to aim while making use of your mobility
2. Speaking of mobility, Lerks are by FAR the fastest unit in the game, and by FAR the most mobile. The only thing that gets you somewhere faster than a Celerity Lerk is a Phase Gate. Fades with blink may be fast, but the energy cost is too great to sustain the speed, while Lerks can simply glide at NO res cost and still be traveling at practically top speed.
3. Lerks are viable strategically because they are the quickest to respond to any point that marines are pushing. For example, if I am in Departures and a teammate calls out marines incoming to Bar, I can find myself there in roughly 5 seconds. Not only is it fun to be able to move this quickly, but it's also useful to the team.
4. Roost. I never hear anybody bringing up roost. It's actually one of the most useful assets Lerks have. Roost allows you to spike spam any target, usually from a safe distance. Marines very often have a very hard time finding you, depending on how big the room is or how long the hallway is. When they do find you, they shoot you with one bullet and you can be gone in a flash. Additionally, certain power nodes are exposed over long distances (ie Flight Control on Summit) where you can wear it down and if the marine team isn't paying attention, or you can get a couple others to help, the cumulative spike damage will shorten the take down time of a power node by a good bit. Roost is good for wearing down targets during an Exo push from a safe distance, it's good for picking off weak targets when your team is rushing a marine base and the marines are focused on skulks and other lifeforms on the ground, and it's good for weakening straggling marines before moving in for the bite kill. The best part is alien vision, It makes it so much easier to see your targets when trying to aim spikes.
---------------
ISSUES:
Loss of Celerity during "combat." Basically I think it's annoying and debatably unfair for a Lerk trying to escape to lose celerity because one AR round hits him from a marine shooting after him. It's also lost when cropdusting spores, which is a big enough risk as it is in it's deployment method (getting in close range is potential for immediate death).
Shotguns. The problem here of course is not with the Lerk. The gun itself needs to be adjusted somehow to make it less of a powerhouse against all lifeforms sub-Onos. I've heard the suggestion of changing it to light type damage, which would also help with Fades currently feeling too weak.
The screaming has to be toned down. For some reason, and I'm not sure if it's a bug or it's just the lengthy sound file, but when getting hit as a Lerk I feel like I keep screaming in agony a good 2 full seconds after the last time I suffered damage. It sounds like the game has already decided I got hit enough to play the sound a second time, even if I stopped taking damage before the first play of the sound completed, if that makes sense.
----------------
OTHER:
While I am pretty much fine with the current line up of Lerk abilities, it seems like what the Lerk's role is SUPPOSED to be is confused. Right now it is pretty much harrass, although if played at a high level can be effective to a degree in combat is played at a high level. I had been under the impression that it was supposed to be more support, but the only support ability it has is Umbra, which largely only appears during the "break the final marine turtle" phase of the game, thus not being allowed to have any impact on the outcome of the game (same going for pretty much all 3 Hive abilities). If a big change were ever made to Lerks, I would like to see them get another ability that directly gives a boost to teammates, OR something that directly inhibits marines, without doing damage. I've always considered web a possibility for the Lerk rather than the Gorge, if a web type ability isn't given to the Khamm first.
Other ideas I'll throw out there without giving them too much thought:
- rearrange the abilities so that Spikes is the alt-fire for Bite, and Umbra is the alt-fire for Spores - Bring back Primal Scream - Instead of just changing spores to be ranged, what if spores AND umbra could both be cropdusted as well as shot? The shot version could be weaker since there's less risk, and it would fill the alt-fire slot for each ability when it is selected. - I'd like to see the CTRL key serve some functionality in flight, even something as simple as making you drop to the ground faster - The force of flapping when holding a strafe key shouldn't make you go up, but rather straight in that direction. Also, Strafe flying needs third person animations to show that the lerk is flying to its side
I'd have to see the stats on the average amount of damage lerks tend to do before they die. From the marines perspective, a spore lerk is EXTREMELY annoying. I shudder to think what it would be like to have to deal with 3-4 of them on average rather than 1-2.
<!--quoteo(post=2023838:date=Nov 15 2012, 11:10 AM:name=moultano)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (moultano @ Nov 15 2012, 11:10 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2023838"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->My goal here was to increase the number of plausible openings to the game so that spores get researched as more than an afterthought.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> This is like saying we should tweak the game to make sentry first viable. Spores are just as troll and lerks have generally always been fine without them.
Leap will always be powerful because it's linked to a 0 tres lifeform - i don't see the point in trying to compete with this.
What about keeping the same cost but let Umbra be the only skill you need to research ? Actually a lerk is worth 30res when he has Spores and he's even better with Umbra, but without Spores no one will roll Lerk, so the commander has the choice : research a skill used by 90% of his teamates (leap, bilebomb) or research Spore for that guy alone who want to play lerk...
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->For example, if I am in Departures and a teammate calls out marines incoming to Bar, I can find myself there in roughly 5 seconds.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
For 30 Res the lerks costs too much considering limited impact and ability to do anything much but "support" or niggle at RT's etc.
Spores need to be 1st hive ability along with spikes, bring umbra to 2nd hive and bite to 3rd (as a lerk needs umbra to get in close to bite anyway once SG are around). Even then I think the cost of lerks need to drop, without the above changes you need to be looking as low as 20 res but with the above you could get away with 25. Lerks are easy to kill when you have weapons upgrades, LMG's chews them up..concentrated fires total slaughter.
Lerks are not meant to be able to do much yet they cost as much as a SG and a JP? Give some of the top players w3 SG and a JP just wait and see what they can do (expecially with a comm who meds and nano's)....your worried about a lerk?
Imagine telling marines they could be basically insta-gibbed by an alien (is that not why devour was removed?), it is a reality for lerks and skulks (carapace helps but not totally).
<!--quoteo(post=2027768:date=Nov 18 2012, 06:36 AM:name=hakenspit)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (hakenspit @ Nov 18 2012, 06:36 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2027768"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->For 30 Res the lerks costs too much considering limited impact and ability to do anything much but "support" or niggle at RT's etc.
Spores need to be 1st hive ability along with spikes, bring umbra to 2nd hive and bite to 3rd (as a lerk needs umbra to get in close to bite anyway once SG are around). Even then I think the cost of lerks need to drop, without the above changes you need to be looking as low as 20 res but with the above you could get away with 25. Lerks are easy to kill when you have weapons upgrades, LMG's chews them up..concentrated fires total slaughter.
Lerks are not meant to be able to do much yet they cost as much as a SG and a JP? Give some of the top players w3 SG and a JP just wait and see what they can do (expecially with a comm who meds and nano's)....your worried about a lerk?
Imagine telling marines they could be basically insta-gibbed by an alien (is that not why devour was removed?), it is a reality for lerks and skulks (carapace helps but not totally).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Once again. The "cheaper Lerks" idea is not only an old one, its one that has been thorougly tried, and failed.
The Lerk is strongest in the Early Game, and the earlier you allow Lerks onto the Field, the more powerful they are. They are stronger, and faster than Skulks, and have a rapid fire ranged attack that in just a few hits allows them to kill an a0 marine in two bites.
If you lower the cost of Lerks, at all, then you will find that it is not only viable to have an entire team evolve Lerk two minutes into the game, but that doing so is an incredibly strong strategy.
Try spiking down a CC with 6 Lerks and see how quickly you can make a marine team rage quit.
Just bring spores back to T1 and have spikes at T2. Would work fine, lerks would actually be able to play the support role from the get go, and with even better spikes they would be well worth the T2 research vs shotguns and JPs.
<!--quoteo(post=2022968:date=Nov 14 2012, 05:07 AM:name=Toumal)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Toumal @ Nov 14 2012, 05:07 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2022968"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I asked for this (as well as the shootable spores, but lerk cost is the most important bit) in a youtube comment but was voted down. The rebuttal was that "there are lerks in pro-games so they are ok the way they are", or something to that effect.
I agree that lerks are a huge and fragile investment at the moment. 15 or 20 res would be good compromise. Lerks won't magically become more powerful, but right now there's just no reason to go lerk when the fade is just around the corner in terms of cost.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The problem is aliens go on a different system them Marines. All Alien upgrades are only one time buy. Marine upgrades to match the lerk is always an investment. What i mean by that is.
A lerk starts off a expensive investment. But once it has its upgrades it becomes a fair investment with a jetpack marine.
while a marine would each time have to buy a jetpack and shotty - 30 res + welder = 35 res.
Which ends up a Lerk becomes insanely OP in terms of cost later in game if it was 15. By keeping it 30 res, it maches the marine jetpackers cost. When they are both fully uppd. So Lerks become a great investment the more upgraes it gets, just as all alien species.
Otherwise to balance the game aliens would have to pay for upgrades each time just like marines. If you want reduced cost of the unit. So Base lerk no upgrades 15. Spore has to be bought each time 5 res. Adrenaline 3 res. Claok 3 res. Carpace 3 res. Umbra 5 res.
Just because alien win rate is higher doesn't mean there's not some mechanics or lifeforms that need buffing. If you seriously think win %s should dictate whether or not a side should receive any buffs then you have a very poor understanding of balance. Some nerfs also need to occur of course, primarily in regards to the 6-min t.res onos. Ultimately the goal needs to be all lifeforms and tech paths being viable, not just the win rate being 50%.
Comments
Everyone keeps saying that Lerks are expensive. Laughable. If you have more than 2 harvesters right off the bat, then it really doesn't take long for you to gain the 15 resources required to Lerk. Usually about 3-4 minutes if you're not constantly dying as a skulk. Takes about 5-8 minutes depending on how bad you're losing as a team to regain that 30 resources. In a usual game for me I usualy always have enough to relerk unless I got extremely greedy.
The only thing I see as expensive is the late game lerk. By then I'd have saved enough to onos or fade.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
My goal here was to increase the number of plausible openings to the game so that spores get researched as more than an afterthought. Do you have other ideas for how that could be accomplished? I feel like lerk has the potential to increase the variety in the early game substantially with a little tweaking. How would you accomplish that?
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->As I said earlier (and I think SabaHell said it as well), reducing the Res cost of the Lerk has already been tried. And by the way, it causes the map to be overpopulated with lerks very quickly.
I'm not saying what I think will happen, I'm telling you it's been tried, and that's exactly what happened. Hold whatever opinion you want, however.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What does overpopulated mean? If the whole team goes lerk is that actually a bad thing? I would love for that to be a viable alternative strategy.
I think moving leap, spores, and maybe bile bomb to hive 1 would greatly improve the variety of alien opening build orders.
Lerk is in a good space right now. It is really powerful. He gets skipped sometimes because spore is what makes him good in the mid game, but leap, blink, onos egg, and bile bomb usually need to be prioritized because the alien team can't hold RTs, assault phase gates or deal with ARCs if they don't pick up at least two of the other hive 2 upgrades.
Basically, most of the time the alien team needs to spend 40 res for fast hive, 25 for leap, 25 for one upgrade, at minimum before they can even think about getting spores. If you could research spores or leap at hive one, you could viably delay hive 2 in favor of holding more res nodes.
So i can start winning games by the 6 minute mark.
It honestly doesn't need to change. If i ever die, i always have enough res to re-lerk anyways. The marine team isn't strong enough to fight earlier lerks and increasing evolution time to compensate would just annoy people
The only change i would consider at this point in time is making flaps cost slightly less energy. Playing at low energy becomes so disproportionately wonky its ridiculous.
As far as I know it was decided that yes, that is very much a bad thing to have happen so early in the game.
A team of Lerks isn't bad. A team of Lerk's 3 minutes into the game however is.
You may call it opening up more viable early game options, but it will create is an atmosphere of "early lerks too strong, needs to be nerfed" and the already terrible late game scaling of the Lerk will become worse as they attempt to soften its early game impact ot account for there suddenly being a horde of them rather than 2-3.
A team of Lerks isn't bad. A team of Lerk's 3 minutes into the game however is.
You may call it opening up more viable early game options, but it will create is an atmosphere of "early lerks too strong, needs to be nerfed" and the already terrible late game scaling of the Lerk will become worse as they attempt to soften its early game impact ot account for there suddenly being a horde of them rather than 2-3.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree with this 100%
Really the bottom line of this thread has been stated many times over.
Lower the Pres - Tried, and failed
Learn how to play the Lerk more effectively and you will live longer, and not feel as squishy
The only thing is truly an issue is spores. Even UWE has said they are not sure how to balance this, seeing as spikes work great for a T1 ability, where as spores also work great for a T1 ability (T1 being Tier 1...first set of abilities)
I personally think other then how expensive spores are (maybe lower it slightly) the lerk is pretty much perfectly balanced...they are great early, mid, and late...just have to watch how you play them, as with any class.
Imagine a whole team of SabaHell's going Lerk 2-3 minutes into the game. It will be a slaughter.
Imagine a whole team of SabaHell's going Lerk 2-3 minutes into the game. It will be a slaughter.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Experienced players pub stomp no matter what weapon/lifeform they use.
Lerk is in a good space right now. It is really powerful. He gets skipped sometimes because spore is what makes him good in the mid game, but leap, blink, onos egg, and bile bomb usually need to be prioritized because the alien team can't hold RTs, assault phase gates or deal with ARCs if they don't pick up at least two of the other hive 2 upgrades.
Basically, most of the time the alien team needs to spend 40 res for fast hive, 25 for leap, 25 for one upgrade, at minimum before they can even think about getting spores. If you could research spores or leap at hive one, you could viably delay hive 2 in favor of holding more res nodes.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I wonder about moving spores and blink to hive 1 instead of spores and leap. This would make getting a hive much more of a tradeoff between investing in upgrades and investing in lifeforms. Having just-spawned skulks able to leap is powerful enough that it seems appropriate to tie to two hives, but fades and lerks are delayed enough that this seems less risky.
I'm fairly certain that was my point. I could be wrong though.
1. Spikes do 13 damage per hit. That's a w3 Assault Rifle with unlimited ammo, albeit at a significantly lower rate of fire. The damage adds up very quickly. It requires learning to aim while making use of your mobility
2. Speaking of mobility, Lerks are by FAR the fastest unit in the game, and by FAR the most mobile. The only thing that gets you somewhere faster than a Celerity Lerk is a Phase Gate. Fades with blink may be fast, but the energy cost is too great to sustain the speed, while Lerks can simply glide at NO res cost and still be traveling at practically top speed.
3. Lerks are viable strategically because they are the quickest to respond to any point that marines are pushing. For example, if I am in Departures and a teammate calls out marines incoming to Bar, I can find myself there in roughly 5 seconds. Not only is it fun to be able to move this quickly, but it's also useful to the team.
4. Roost. I never hear anybody bringing up roost. It's actually one of the most useful assets Lerks have. Roost allows you to spike spam any target, usually from a safe distance. Marines very often have a very hard time finding you, depending on how big the room is or how long the hallway is. When they do find you, they shoot you with one bullet and you can be gone in a flash. Additionally, certain power nodes are exposed over long distances (ie Flight Control on Summit) where you can wear it down and if the marine team isn't paying attention, or you can get a couple others to help, the cumulative spike damage will shorten the take down time of a power node by a good bit. Roost is good for wearing down targets during an Exo push from a safe distance, it's good for picking off weak targets when your team is rushing a marine base and the marines are focused on skulks and other lifeforms on the ground, and it's good for weakening straggling marines before moving in for the bite kill. The best part is alien vision, It makes it so much easier to see your targets when trying to aim spikes.
---------------
ISSUES:
Loss of Celerity during "combat." Basically I think it's annoying and debatably unfair for a Lerk trying to escape to lose celerity because one AR round hits him from a marine shooting after him. It's also lost when cropdusting spores, which is a big enough risk as it is in it's deployment method (getting in close range is potential for immediate death).
Shotguns. The problem here of course is not with the Lerk. The gun itself needs to be adjusted somehow to make it less of a powerhouse against all lifeforms sub-Onos. I've heard the suggestion of changing it to light type damage, which would also help with Fades currently feeling too weak.
The screaming has to be toned down. For some reason, and I'm not sure if it's a bug or it's just the lengthy sound file, but when getting hit as a Lerk I feel like I keep screaming in agony a good 2 full seconds after the last time I suffered damage. It sounds like the game has already decided I got hit enough to play the sound a second time, even if I stopped taking damage before the first play of the sound completed, if that makes sense.
----------------
OTHER:
While I am pretty much fine with the current line up of Lerk abilities, it seems like what the Lerk's role is SUPPOSED to be is confused. Right now it is pretty much harrass, although if played at a high level can be effective to a degree in combat is played at a high level. I had been under the impression that it was supposed to be more support, but the only support ability it has is Umbra, which largely only appears during the "break the final marine turtle" phase of the game, thus not being allowed to have any impact on the outcome of the game (same going for pretty much all 3 Hive abilities). If a big change were ever made to Lerks, I would like to see them get another ability that directly gives a boost to teammates, OR something that directly inhibits marines, without doing damage. I've always considered web a possibility for the Lerk rather than the Gorge, if a web type ability isn't given to the Khamm first.
Other ideas I'll throw out there without giving them too much thought:
- rearrange the abilities so that Spikes is the alt-fire for Bite, and Umbra is the alt-fire for Spores
- Bring back Primal Scream
- Instead of just changing spores to be ranged, what if spores AND umbra could both be cropdusted as well as shot? The shot version could be weaker since there's less risk, and it would fill the alt-fire slot for each ability when it is selected.
- I'd like to see the CTRL key serve some functionality in flight, even something as simple as making you drop to the ground faster
- The force of flapping when holding a strafe key shouldn't make you go up, but rather straight in that direction. Also, Strafe flying needs third person animations to show that the lerk is flying to its side
This is like saying we should tweak the game to make sentry first viable. Spores are just as troll and lerks have generally always been fine without them.
Leap will always be powerful because it's linked to a 0 tres lifeform - i don't see the point in trying to compete with this.
Now this I have to see.
Spores need to be 1st hive ability along with spikes, bring umbra to 2nd hive and bite to 3rd (as a lerk needs umbra to get in close to bite anyway once SG are around).
Even then I think the cost of lerks need to drop, without the above changes you need to be looking as low as 20 res but with the above you could get away with 25.
Lerks are easy to kill when you have weapons upgrades, LMG's chews them up..concentrated fires total slaughter.
Lerks are not meant to be able to do much yet they cost as much as a SG and a JP? Give some of the top players w3 SG and a JP just wait and see what they can do (expecially with a comm who meds and nano's)....your worried about a lerk?
Imagine telling marines they could be basically insta-gibbed by an alien (is that not why devour was removed?), it is a reality for lerks and skulks (carapace helps but not totally).
Spores need to be 1st hive ability along with spikes, bring umbra to 2nd hive and bite to 3rd (as a lerk needs umbra to get in close to bite anyway once SG are around).
Even then I think the cost of lerks need to drop, without the above changes you need to be looking as low as 20 res but with the above you could get away with 25.
Lerks are easy to kill when you have weapons upgrades, LMG's chews them up..concentrated fires total slaughter.
Lerks are not meant to be able to do much yet they cost as much as a SG and a JP? Give some of the top players w3 SG and a JP just wait and see what they can do (expecially with a comm who meds and nano's)....your worried about a lerk?
Imagine telling marines they could be basically insta-gibbed by an alien (is that not why devour was removed?), it is a reality for lerks and skulks (carapace helps but not totally).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Once again. The "cheaper Lerks" idea is not only an old one, its one that has been thorougly tried, and failed.
The Lerk is strongest in the Early Game, and the earlier you allow Lerks onto the Field, the more powerful they are. They are stronger, and faster than Skulks, and have a rapid fire ranged attack that in just a few hits allows them to kill an a0 marine in two bites.
If you lower the cost of Lerks, at all, then you will find that it is not only viable to have an entire team evolve Lerk two minutes into the game, but that doing so is an incredibly strong strategy.
Try spiking down a CC with 6 Lerks and see how quickly you can make a marine team rage quit.
@Thread: AND STAY DOWN!
I agree that lerks are a huge and fragile investment at the moment. 15 or 20 res would be good compromise. Lerks won't magically become more powerful, but right now there's just no reason to go lerk when the fade is just around the corner in terms of cost.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The problem is aliens go on a different system them Marines.
All Alien upgrades are only one time buy. Marine upgrades to match the lerk is always an investment.
What i mean by that is.
A lerk starts off a expensive investment. But once it has its upgrades it becomes a fair investment with a jetpack marine.
while a marine would each time have to buy a jetpack and shotty - 30 res + welder = 35 res.
Which ends up a Lerk becomes insanely OP in terms of cost later in game if it was 15.
By keeping it 30 res, it maches the marine jetpackers cost. When they are both fully uppd.
So Lerks become a great investment the more upgraes it gets, just as all alien species.
Otherwise to balance the game aliens would have to pay for upgrades each time just like marines. If you want reduced cost of the unit.
So Base lerk no upgrades 15. Spore has to be bought each time 5 res. Adrenaline 3 res. Claok 3 res. Carpace 3 res. Umbra 5 res.
So a fully upp'd lerk everytime costs 30.
Yeah baby steps guys.
Seen this mentioned multiple times here.
'no reason to go fade when onos is just around the corner'
Seen this mentioned multiple times in other threads.
Draw your own conclusions.