Kind of reminds me of the combat games from NS1 where I'd buy a welder, JP into the hive and drop 4 electrified TFs around it, build them all without getting killed and watch as my res points steadily climbed as the hive got zapped to death.
it works nicely in games you would probably win anyway, you need like 5-6 rt's to pull this off smoothly ( or save about 80res ).
things you need :
1. lots of res, either have 5-6rt for extra income, or save something like 80res.
2. expand cysts unseen ( this is the hardest part, if marines got mapcontrol it's basicly impossible ), if they see cysts only in their base, they are already too late and just spam cysts all around their base and go to step 3
3. have your team rush marinebase the sametime you expand cysts in there, for distraction, try to attack the base when most marines are out, build shift's when there is skulks inside their base for distraction, immidietly use mist to help them grow, build atleast 3 or 4 shifts.
4. spam eggs and have fun ! just spam cysts / eggs / shifts ( if shifts die ) and look how marines goes into panic mode and loses.
it's tons of fun ^^
notes:
- if marines have turrets in their base, it makes this a lot harder ( mayby impossible if turrets positioned the worst way )
- if marines got mapcontrol around their mainbase, it gets a lot harder to get cysts in there unseen, not impossible though.
- if marines got mapcontrol and kills your team rt's, leaving your team only 1-2 resourcetowers, this might be impossible to pull off, unless you save up 80+ tres.
- you need your team immidietly into enemy base once first cyst is spotted, you can't pull this alone unless there is absolutely no one in marinebase to see you build shifts.
- there can be marines breaking your cysts chain, i'd suggest building double cysts into the marine base, immidietly repair broken chain because you can't build in enemybase if this chain gets broken ( i mean you can't build cysts in enemy base, you can still build shifts and eggs if chain gets broken ).
If you had some drifters in there to enzyme, this would be even more effective with skulks :D Hopefully this will teach new players that the tentacle looking thing can create eggs, so shoot it first!
As for defense, in the beta you would deploy an arc in the middle of the room to prevent mass cysting into your base, but as they would only target the shifts now, I guess that sentries would do a better job. If it proves a popular tactic, sentries will be probably be higher on the commanders todo list.
Of course, you can't beat good old fashioned paying attention before ###### hits the fan.
<!--quoteo(post=2025043:date=Nov 15 2012, 02:19 PM:name=SixtyWattMan)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SixtyWattMan @ Nov 15 2012, 02:19 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2025043"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->One set of turrets would just kill every cyst you tried to place inside the room.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
heh, i managed to do this in base where there was turrets... no, turrets sucks ass, they don't help a damn thing lol ;F unless you place all 3 turrets pointing on the hallway you try to cyst inside, then it would help, but then again spending 45res so aliens can't do this strat is kind of a waste imo.
This isn't new. . . I've done the same strat with 5-6 Infantry Portals and rushing a Phase gate inside or next to a hive
You can't cover stuff like summit reception and it's just an endless flood of marines after that <i>(long, long time before I saw anyone stop or or even defeat me after I went for it. . . 23 and 1 is no longer "vs. baddies" and I'll do it again with this strat)</i>
Already 7 and 0 with it <i>(last game marines beaconed fast and shot the shifts down right away. . . I'd just drop more)</i>
-<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Let's see it vs players that can aim. I'm willing to see the evidence. But saying "23 and 1 is no longer vs baddies" is meaningless. When I tell my friend he only sleeps with ugly women, he doesn't reply with "uhh, I've slept with over 20 women, it's no longer only uglies".
If marines beaconed, shot the shifts, and you dropped more... what, they didn't shoot those ones? 8v8 skulks beat marines handily? Those are both still things that would happen vs less-than-skilled marines.
Edit: Kudos to you for trying new things, I like it and I like seeing it on the forums. But calling for nerfs on such minimal evidence/testing is just noise for the developers.
First and foremost, thanks for the laughs. Thats a super cool and interesting tactic, and I give you mad props for it.
Unfortunately it also shouldn't work against people who aren't already losing. That strat hinges on your ability to cist into their base. If you can even get close to that, you are already dominating the marines. Its a cool finishing move but I think its just accelerating an already decided outcome.
Maybe I'm wrong, maybe well start to see a lot more of this, but I really do feel like the people getting owned by this deserve what they get. I think calling for a nerf based on this is a bit premature.
<!--quoteo(post=2025129:date=Nov 15 2012, 04:04 PM:name=Gnimish)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gnimish @ Nov 15 2012, 04:04 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2025129"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->First and foremost, thanks for the laughs. Thats a super cool and interesting tactic, and I give you mad props for it.
Unfortunately it also shouldn't work against people who aren't already losing. That strat hinges on your ability to cist into their base. If you can even get close to that, you are already dominating the marines. Its a cool finishing move but I think its just accelerating an already decided outcome.
Maybe I'm wrong, maybe well start to see a lot more of this, but I really do feel like the people getting owned by this deserve what they get. I think calling for a nerf based on this is a bit premature.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> People that say this shouldn't work before seeing it with their own eyes, probably shouldn't post an opinion on whether or not it will work. They also shouldn't bash the marine teams for succumbing to this extremely overpowered method.
If you have a tower close to a base, and enough of your team swamps their base to let you cyst in while they're distracted and get shifts up and spam eggs, this works. I can confirm that it is hilariously awesome to see all of your skulks continue to spawn in their base faster than they can kill them.
Try this as an early game strat... film from begging not what appears to be midgame.
On that eggs need a maturity time from first-spawning... that probably would have made the difference.
Think when marines drop a structure it's an outline, 1 bite and the res is gone. Eggs should be similar. a single bullet should pop an unmatured egg and spamming like that in there from marines should have had that effect I feel, perhaps it would have simply dragged it out, but it wouldn't have been as effective?
EDIT: Additionally, I don't know about this room, but carefully placed turrets if the MComm is thinking can stop cysting into a base for the most part so that this isn't possible in such extremes.
it works nicely in games you would probably win anyway, you need like 5-6 rt's to pull this off smoothly ( or save about 80res ).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If you have 5-6 RTs consistently well-defended as aliens, you could probably write GG in whips, then echo them in the marine base, and it will have the same effect on the game overall. Just a few minutes slower.
<!--quoteo(post=2025043:date=Nov 15 2012, 03:19 PM:name=SixtyWattMan)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SixtyWattMan @ Nov 15 2012, 03:19 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2025043"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->One set of turrets would just kill every cyst you tried to place inside the room.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Please don't add fuel to this noobfire. I already have people whining that I'm not building turrets everywhere when I com on a daily basis.
If there's anything that can stop this, it's map control, pressure on aliens, arcs, flamethrowers, marines who are not horribly bad, etc.
You can put the exact same kind of pressure with a phase gate outside of an alien hive. All you need to do is have "like 5-6 rt's to pull <it> off smoothly."
If there's a bug where you can place eggs around an unbuilt shift, that's a whole different story.
schkorpioI can mspaintJoin Date: 2003-05-23Member: 16635Members
<!--quoteo(post=2025359:date=Nov 16 2012, 03:30 PM:name=Lofung)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Lofung @ Nov 16 2012, 03:30 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2025359"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->it reminds me electricifying the hive. just that no one brag about that in ns1.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> electrified turret factories haha classic ns1 :)
<!--quoteo(post=2024142:date=Nov 14 2012, 11:58 PM:name=MaximumSquid)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MaximumSquid @ Nov 14 2012, 11:58 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2024142"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->...while I cysted in and misted the shifts<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--quoteo(post=2025025:date=Nov 15 2012, 05:05 PM:name=Juomari)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Juomari @ Nov 15 2012, 05:05 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2025025"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->...immidietly use mist to help them grow, build atleast 3 or 4 shifts.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Mist does not speed construction. Hasn't for at least 8 builds now. All you're doing is wasting 3 res to speed the maturity of nearby cysts.
<!--quoteo(post=2025267:date=Nov 15 2012, 09:51 PM:name=Daworm)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Daworm @ Nov 15 2012, 09:51 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2025267"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Think when marines drop a structure it's an outline, 1 bite and the res is gone.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Actually, touching the blueprint as an alien gives the marines a full refund. It <i>is</i> possible to attack and destroy them, costing them the res, but it seems impossible to do from melee range (and they definitely have more health than 1 bite can do). Bile bomb, spit, or spikes work, however, and even give points for doing so.
For this reason, it's worth considering leaving the blueprints (which ties up the marines' res) and let a gorge or lerk destroy them.
<!--quoteo(post=2025134:date=Nov 15 2012, 05:11 PM:name=pRiNcEkAhUnA)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (pRiNcEkAhUnA @ Nov 15 2012, 05:11 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2025134"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->People that say this shouldn't work before seeing it with their own eyes, probably shouldn't post an opinion on whether or not it will work. They also shouldn't bash the marine teams for succumbing to this extremely overpowered method.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I was actually in the game from the first picture he posted, and that marine team was terrible. I think there were probably 3 people with kills besides myself. I actually haven't seen Max play on a completely non-stacked team. Not that he's doing it on purpose but every game I played with him that night pretty much all of the decent players were on his team.
I did it recently in a game where I had a very disorganized team <i>(people not covering/scouting half the map even though I ask)</i> We were on 3 res very quickly despite being opposite side of the map from marines
I went for the 3 Shift anyway, but it took an extra 2 minutes for my team to get into position Finally when they agreed to get to Marine spawn I had to drop the shifts and eggs in early because my ninja chain got spotted
About 1/3rd to 1/2 the eggs went down before my team started the fight Marines had more res and the 2 min delay meant they had bigger upgrades than what I was used to seeing
Top if off the enemy commander was a friend of mine with over 1000 hours in this game <i>(Do you like these odds, gentlemen?)</i>
Almost immediately he texts me that "I've got him. . . " he doesn't think he can pull out of it
But the Marine team has the edge and because several of my team were advanced lifeforms they hung back and we never got the momentum we needed to end it
I couldn't cover their base with Cysts so they got up more IPs up
It was nearly a deadlock. . .
The fight went on for over 4 minutes until Flamethrowers hit the floor as <b><u>I literally watched a snow plow of fire run down the hallway</u></b> scaring every non-advanced lifeform clear away
I got countered, but guess what? My team now owned the entire map and the marine team had spent a huge amount of pres on stuff that can't counter endgame strats
The fire plow cleared out 3 more rooms and pushed my team back to middle, but then they all wiped and we pushed them back to only owning 2
Game continued like normal. . . 2 hive, 2 upgrade, 2 fast onos eggs + 2 other teamates going onos and gg shortly after that <i>(probably 3 more minutes after they kicked us to middle)</i>
I congratulated my friend as he had single handedly done the best against the strat than anyone
My friend was actually shaking during the battle; I had told him about the strat before thegame, but he had never seen it in action" He goes on to tell me that he thinks it's "unbeatable" and I agree with him. . . Even if you counter it your team is heading for fast defeat soon after it
TLDR; easily should of lost that game, but we won using the strat with all those disadvantages
<i>Currently 10 and 0 with the setup</i>
---
<u><b>Juomari:</b></u>
The strats comes on too early in the game to matter if they went fast turrets
I've seen turrets used against it and my team will just own the map because of the lack of phase <i>(people usually don't put turrets in their main during the early game either because it's too important to have the nests hold forward ground you've taken)</i>
If you can't cyst in then you don't use the strat. . . You lose nothing, but often this still slows down the marines because they split up and spend a bunch of time killing a cyst chain 3 directions Never force the strat. . . I only use it in about half my games that I command; the other ones I go shade hive first usually
Because you use the res that would go to a second hive to push the strat you can do it on low res when your team is probably heading for a loss as I mentioned in the above reply Also with the previous reply your timing can be complete junk and you still win
---
<u><b>Argosh:</b></u>
This is possible, but it's not confirmed Structures being able to use abilities immediately that are near other structures that are same actually sounds like something the aliens would have It also opens the door for more strats for the aliens if the alien commander is willing to risk and spend that res
I would actually like to see that feature stay, but shifts being able to spawn eggs instantly still needs a nerf
Enzyme is usually pretty expensive early game and if it's pure skulks you might have to put down 2 or 3 clouds to cover a room
It does make it so if your team rushes the power / beacon you might win without the eggs
I do use drifters a lot, but for testing reasons I haven't brought them to these fights
---
<u><b>DanielD:</b></u>
It's too random. . . that logic wouldn't carry over in the long run where I pull out factors that would otherwise keep the the information locked to a single set
I like the attempt, but a much more reasonable analogy would be a Player claiming to be good after going 23 and 1 as marine on a server full of noobs Unfortunately at some point that dude probably faced off against a 2 or even 3on1 Winning a 3on1 against bad players even one time is still enough to prove that the person has some skill
I only need to win one game against stacked odds to prove that the strat is OP and I've already done this
---
<u><b>Gnimish:</b></u>
Such an amazing thought process. . . "X strat won't work if you're losing"
Yeah I'm guessing most if not all strats could be lumped into that statement right? Except it's obviously false because teams make comebacks often with strats that are not only counters but are overpowered
3 Shift comes on so fast that a Marine team has no counter to it Seriously go re-watch the videos. . . the marines distress beacon and get massacred
considering a nerf to imediate spawning eggs: just give them an accumulated cooldown. So after spawning an egg there will be a X second delay till the next is spawned (when the shift is built). If it is not used the cooldown runs, which would mean if the shift is idling for 12 seconds and X = 3 (the delay), you could spawn 4 eggs immediatly.
How is this OP? You needed a skulk rush + cysts and 3 shifts to be able to pull this off. A single marine spotting this would've resulted in a proper beacon and stopped this strat easily. Also enzyme doesn't speed build time of structures.
Also did you watch the videos? It gets spotted every game, usually followed by the beacon, and marines losing You can build the shifts outside the base if you think it's too risky
---
<u><b>Ness_FrogKing:</b></u>
Ah interesting. . . Guess I won't be using mist much anymore
That res will probably going to a forward drifter then
Are people calling this OP now? You have to walk a cyst chain to the Marine base. If the Marines have good map control and map presence you won't have the ability to push in their base with cysts. I have only gotten the opportunity to use this strat on Veil when I take c12/topo side of map because Marines are Control/SKylight/Overlook/Sub access. If they had Topo I never could have pushed in.
Are we worried about egg spam now? 10 res for a single, fragile shift which marines can blow away before it spawns, 10+ res for the cyst chain, and 5+ res for all the eggs. At least 25 res minimum, if you don't spawn more than five eggs, your cyst chain comes from a room away (topo -> control on veil), and you only have one shift.
This strat seems to work only when aliens have a ton of disposable res to waste on LITERALLY FORCING THEIR WAY INTO MARINE BASE.
Had several games of last night both using this tactic and defending against it.
Very powerful, quick and cheap to spawn lots of eggs, each taking a couple of clips to kill. Shift eggs really need to be a lot weaker when first created and limited in number. It proved an effective way to keep marines from spreading out of base.
As a marine commander, to defend against this was hard.
The best tactic was go aggressive, get to a side of the start hive, kill cysts and new harvesters. But getting some marines to do this, along with not killing every cyst on way, proved difficult.
If a shift was snuck passed your watch, the best tactic was to have all marines defend except for two of your best, to go and counter-attack their hive, forcing the aliens to travel back. It needs to be two as the khamm can easily take out a lone marine with hive regen.
An interesting variation on the tactic I saw was to shift just outside the base, and have a gorge clog over the shift protecting it from damage, along with a few hydras.
IDK man, I used to like shifts quite a lot during the beta, and was doing things such as yours - like push in as far as possible near a marine position and then set up a shift there and spam eggs... but I found that if the marines are good and the skulks aren't, it doesn't make much of a difference.
Tactics like this usually "escalate" the game very quickly, but I've seen too many shifts killed in the beta to really believe that this is 100% win anymore. And when the shifts die, you lose a lot of res.
Again, I'll chalk this it up to current marine teams sucking horribly, and not prioritizing. The shift itself is so fragile that it takes 2 AR clips I think at w0 to take it down. That's 3 seconds with 2 decent people (even if skulks are attacking them, they can usually survive long enough to unload on the shift). Once the shift is dead, the egg spam ceases and everything is over rapidly because you've lost 10+eggs(1 each) res.
These tales you mention of fighting shifts for what, 5 minutes, just make me think that not a single person on the marine team knew what he was doing. And grenade launchers are actually a much better counter to shifts than flamethrowers... but like I said, no specific weapon/counter is really needed. All a marine needs to do is unload 2 or 3 clips into the shift, and it won't even grow fully. If you have 3, it'll take a little longer but the entire fight should be over in less than 30 seconds, maybe a minute at most. That is, unless marines camp, suck, and/or try to kill skulks before the shifts themselves,
As I mentioned in another thread, there's some severe problems with marine teams' understanding of the game, something I noticed in the games I played yesterday anyway. There is no sense of urgency. I think it's maybe because marines generally move slower than aliens or that they have to build, but alien teams are rapidly starting to learn that the best thing to do is to LEAVE THE BASE and spread all over the map to cover every approach, be generally as aggressive as possible, and not in 1 group of 8 but 2 or 3 groups of 2-3-4. Marines, on the other hand, take their time, sitting around, building, and then everyone moves in a huge pack to some location and "sets up base" there, leaving 2-3 approaches completely uncovered. And guess what, they get rushed and beaconed, and lose the game... then apparently, aliens are OP.
To succeed, marines need to be EVEN MORE aggressive than aliens. There should be 1 person max building in base. After obs is done, that 1 person can even be the commander. Everyone else needs to be SPRINTING around the map, building RTs, mining up phase gates, knifing down alien RTs, sniping aline upgrades etc., not camping around the armory, or camping anywhere, unless the situation dictates (solo marine going in a hive is usually fail).
Forward shifts are no more OP than forward phase gates with minefields around them. Both end the game extremely quickly against a crappy team and if not shut down rapidly.
Oh, and you can play against a 35000 hours commander if you'd like. The result will be the same. The commander can't shoot or bite for their team, he can only tell them where the threats are and get them tools to defeat threats, as needed. It's up to each team member to filter this information and deliver the damage and accuracy where it matters.
Hey, and then you'd have the use for mist, to mature the shift so you can upgrade echo. You'd only need one Mature shift, echoing other shifts to for added insult.
Comments
it works nicely in games you would probably win anyway, you need like 5-6 rt's to pull this off smoothly ( or save about 80res ).
things you need :
1. lots of res, either have 5-6rt for extra income, or save something like 80res.
2. expand cysts unseen ( this is the hardest part, if marines got mapcontrol it's basicly impossible ), if they see cysts only in their base, they are already too late and just spam cysts all around their base and go to step 3
3. have your team rush marinebase the sametime you expand cysts in there, for distraction, try to attack the base when most marines are out, build shift's when there is skulks inside their base for distraction, immidietly use mist to help them grow, build atleast 3 or 4 shifts.
4. spam eggs and have fun ! just spam cysts / eggs / shifts ( if shifts die ) and look how marines goes into panic mode and loses.
it's tons of fun ^^
notes:
- if marines have turrets in their base, it makes this a lot harder ( mayby impossible if turrets positioned the worst way )
- if marines got mapcontrol around their mainbase, it gets a lot harder to get cysts in there unseen, not impossible though.
- if marines got mapcontrol and kills your team rt's, leaving your team only 1-2 resourcetowers, this might be impossible to pull off, unless you save up 80+ tres.
- you need your team immidietly into enemy base once first cyst is spotted, you can't pull this alone unless there is absolutely no one in marinebase to see you build shifts.
- there can be marines breaking your cysts chain, i'd suggest building double cysts into the marine base, immidietly repair broken chain because you can't build in enemybase if this chain gets broken ( i mean you can't build cysts in enemy base, you can still build shifts and eggs if chain gets broken ).
Hopefully this will teach new players that the tentacle looking thing can create eggs, so shoot it first!
As for defense, in the beta you would deploy an arc in the middle of the room to prevent mass cysting into your base, but as they would only target the shifts now, I guess that sentries would do a better job. If it proves a popular tactic, sentries will be probably be higher on the commanders todo list.
Of course, you can't beat good old fashioned paying attention before ###### hits the fan.
heh, i managed to do this in base where there was turrets... no, turrets sucks ass, they don't help a damn thing lol ;F unless you place all 3 turrets pointing on the hallway you try to cyst inside, then it would help, but then again spending 45res so aliens can't do this strat is kind of a waste imo.
just proves once again how useless turrets are.
This isn't new. . . I've done the same strat with 5-6 Infantry Portals and rushing a Phase gate inside or next to a hive
You can't cover stuff like summit reception and it's just an endless flood of marines after that
<i>(long, long time before I saw anyone stop or or even defeat me after I went for it. . . 23 and 1 is no longer "vs. baddies" and I'll do it again with this strat)</i>
Already 7 and 0 with it
<i>(last game marines beaconed fast and shot the shifts down right away. . . I'd just drop more)</i>
-<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Let's see it vs players that can aim. I'm willing to see the evidence. But saying "23 and 1 is no longer vs baddies" is meaningless. When I tell my friend he only sleeps with ugly women, he doesn't reply with "uhh, I've slept with over 20 women, it's no longer only uglies".
If marines beaconed, shot the shifts, and you dropped more... what, they didn't shoot those ones? 8v8 skulks beat marines handily? Those are both still things that would happen vs less-than-skilled marines.
Edit: Kudos to you for trying new things, I like it and I like seeing it on the forums. But calling for nerfs on such minimal evidence/testing is just noise for the developers.
Unfortunately it also shouldn't work against people who aren't already losing. That strat hinges on your ability to cist into their base. If you can even get close to that, you are already dominating the marines. Its a cool finishing move but I think its just accelerating an already decided outcome.
Maybe I'm wrong, maybe well start to see a lot more of this, but I really do feel like the people getting owned by this deserve what they get. I think calling for a nerf based on this is a bit premature.
Unfortunately it also shouldn't work against people who aren't already losing. That strat hinges on your ability to cist into their base. If you can even get close to that, you are already dominating the marines. Its a cool finishing move but I think its just accelerating an already decided outcome.
Maybe I'm wrong, maybe well start to see a lot more of this, but I really do feel like the people getting owned by this deserve what they get. I think calling for a nerf based on this is a bit premature.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
People that say this shouldn't work before seeing it with their own eyes, probably shouldn't post an opinion on whether or not it will work. They also shouldn't bash the marine teams for succumbing to this extremely overpowered method.
On that eggs need a maturity time from first-spawning... that probably would have made the difference.
Think when marines drop a structure it's an outline, 1 bite and the res is gone.
Eggs should be similar. a single bullet should pop an unmatured egg and spamming like that in there from marines should have had that effect I feel, perhaps it would have simply dragged it out, but it wouldn't have been as effective?
EDIT:
Additionally, I don't know about this room, but carefully placed turrets if the MComm is thinking can stop cysting into a base for the most part so that this isn't possible in such extremes.
it works nicely in games you would probably win anyway, you need like 5-6 rt's to pull this off smoothly ( or save about 80res ).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If you have 5-6 RTs consistently well-defended as aliens, you could probably write GG in whips, then echo them in the marine base, and it will have the same effect on the game overall. Just a few minutes slower.
<!--quoteo(post=2025043:date=Nov 15 2012, 03:19 PM:name=SixtyWattMan)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SixtyWattMan @ Nov 15 2012, 03:19 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2025043"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->One set of turrets would just kill every cyst you tried to place inside the room.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Please don't add fuel to this noobfire. I already have people whining that I'm not building turrets everywhere when I com on a daily basis.
If there's anything that can stop this, it's map control, pressure on aliens, arcs, flamethrowers, marines who are not horribly bad, etc.
You can put the exact same kind of pressure with a phase gate outside of an alien hive. All you need to do is have "like 5-6 rt's to pull <it> off smoothly."
If there's a bug where you can place eggs around an unbuilt shift, that's a whole different story.
electrified turret factories haha classic ns1 :)
<!--quoteo(post=2025025:date=Nov 15 2012, 05:05 PM:name=Juomari)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Juomari @ Nov 15 2012, 05:05 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2025025"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->...immidietly use mist to help them grow, build atleast 3 or 4 shifts.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Mist does not speed construction. Hasn't for at least 8 builds now. All you're doing is wasting 3 res to speed the maturity of nearby cysts.
<!--quoteo(post=2025267:date=Nov 15 2012, 09:51 PM:name=Daworm)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Daworm @ Nov 15 2012, 09:51 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2025267"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Think when marines drop a structure it's an outline, 1 bite and the res is gone.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually, touching the blueprint as an alien gives the marines a full refund. It <i>is</i> possible to attack and destroy them, costing them the res, but it seems impossible to do from melee range (and they definitely have more health than 1 bite can do). Bile bomb, spit, or spikes work, however, and even give points for doing so.
For this reason, it's worth considering leaving the blueprints (which ties up the marines' res) and let a gorge or lerk destroy them.
SS: <a href="http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=108180974" target="_blank">http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/file...s/?id=108180974</a>
I was actually in the game from the first picture he posted, and that marine team was terrible. I think there were probably 3 people with kills besides myself. I actually haven't seen Max play on a completely non-stacked team. Not that he's doing it on purpose but every game I played with him that night pretty much all of the decent players were on his team.
I did it recently in a game where I had a very disorganized team <i>(people not covering/scouting half the map even though I ask)</i>
We were on 3 res very quickly despite being opposite side of the map from marines
I went for the 3 Shift anyway, but it took an extra 2 minutes for my team to get into position
Finally when they agreed to get to Marine spawn I had to drop the shifts and eggs in early because my ninja chain got spotted
About 1/3rd to 1/2 the eggs went down before my team started the fight
Marines had more res and the 2 min delay meant they had bigger upgrades than what I was used to seeing
Top if off the enemy commander was a friend of mine with over 1000 hours in this game
<i>(Do you like these odds, gentlemen?)</i>
Almost immediately he texts me that "I've got him. . . " he doesn't think he can pull out of it
But the Marine team has the edge and because several of my team were advanced lifeforms they hung back and we never got the momentum we needed to end it
I couldn't cover their base with Cysts so they got up more IPs up
It was nearly a deadlock. . .
The fight went on for over 4 minutes until Flamethrowers hit the floor as <b><u>I literally watched a snow plow of fire run down the hallway</u></b> scaring every non-advanced lifeform clear away
I got countered, but guess what?
My team now owned the entire map and the marine team had spent a huge amount of pres on stuff that can't counter endgame strats
The fire plow cleared out 3 more rooms and pushed my team back to middle, but then they all wiped and we pushed them back to only owning 2
Game continued like normal. . . 2 hive, 2 upgrade, 2 fast onos eggs + 2 other teamates going onos and gg shortly after that
<i>(probably 3 more minutes after they kicked us to middle)</i>
I congratulated my friend as he had single handedly done the best against the strat than anyone
My friend was actually shaking during the battle; I had told him about the strat before thegame, but he had never seen it in action"
He goes on to tell me that he thinks it's "unbeatable" and I agree with him. . .
Even if you counter it your team is heading for fast defeat soon after it
TLDR; easily should of lost that game, but we won using the strat with all those disadvantages
<i>Currently 10 and 0 with the setup</i>
---
<u><b>Juomari:</b></u>
The strats comes on too early in the game to matter if they went fast turrets
I've seen turrets used against it and my team will just own the map because of the lack of phase
<i>(people usually don't put turrets in their main during the early game either because it's too important to have the nests hold forward ground you've taken)</i>
If you can't cyst in then you don't use the strat. . .
You lose nothing, but often this still slows down the marines because they split up and spend a bunch of time killing a cyst chain 3 directions
Never force the strat. . . I only use it in about half my games that I command; the other ones I go shade hive first usually
Because you use the res that would go to a second hive to push the strat you can do it on low res when your team is probably heading for a loss as I mentioned in the above reply
Also with the previous reply your timing can be complete junk and you still win
---
<u><b>Argosh:</b></u>
This is possible, but it's not confirmed
Structures being able to use abilities immediately that are near other structures that are same actually sounds like something the aliens would have
It also opens the door for more strats for the aliens if the alien commander is willing to risk and spend that res
I would actually like to see that feature stay, but shifts being able to spawn eggs instantly still needs a nerf
-
Enzyme is usually pretty expensive early game and if it's pure skulks you might have to put down 2 or 3 clouds to cover a room
It does make it so if your team rushes the power / beacon you might win without the eggs
I do use drifters a lot, but for testing reasons I haven't brought them to these fights
---
<u><b>DanielD:</b></u>
It's too random. . . that logic wouldn't carry over in the long run where I pull out factors that would otherwise keep the the information locked to a single set
I like the attempt, but a much more reasonable analogy would be a Player claiming to be good after going 23 and 1 as marine on a server full of noobs
Unfortunately at some point that dude probably faced off against a 2 or even 3on1
Winning a 3on1 against bad players even one time is still enough to prove that the person has some skill
I only need to win one game against stacked odds to prove that the strat is OP and I've already done this
---
<u><b>Gnimish:</b></u>
Such an amazing thought process. . .
"X strat won't work if you're losing"
Yeah I'm guessing most if not all strats could be lumped into that statement right?
Except it's obviously false because teams make comebacks often with strats that are not only counters but are overpowered
3 Shift comes on so fast that a Marine team has no counter to it
Seriously go re-watch the videos. . . the marines distress beacon and get massacred
What other alien strat does this?
-
considering a nerf to imediate spawning eggs: just give them an accumulated cooldown. So after spawning an egg there will be a X second delay till the next is spawned (when the shift is built).
If it is not used the cooldown runs, which would mean if the shift is idling for 12 seconds and X = 3 (the delay), you could spawn 4 eggs immediatly.
I never said Enzyme speeded up build time
Also did you watch the videos?
It gets spotted every game, usually followed by the beacon, and marines losing
You can build the shifts outside the base if you think it's too risky
---
<u><b>Ness_FrogKing:</b></u>
Ah interesting. . .
Guess I won't be using mist much anymore
That res will probably going to a forward drifter then
-
Are we worried about egg spam now? 10 res for a single, fragile shift which marines can blow away before it spawns, 10+ res for the cyst chain, and 5+ res for all the eggs. At least 25 res minimum, if you don't spawn more than five eggs, your cyst chain comes from a room away (topo -> control on veil), and you only have one shift.
This strat seems to work only when aliens have a ton of disposable res to waste on LITERALLY FORCING THEIR WAY INTO MARINE BASE.
Very powerful, quick and cheap to spawn lots of eggs, each taking a couple of clips to kill.
Shift eggs really need to be a lot weaker when first created and limited in number.
It proved an effective way to keep marines from spreading out of base.
As a marine commander, to defend against this was hard.
The best tactic was go aggressive, get to a side of the start hive, kill cysts and new harvesters.
But getting some marines to do this, along with not killing every cyst on way, proved difficult.
If a shift was snuck passed your watch, the best tactic was to have all marines defend except
for two of your best, to go and counter-attack their hive, forcing the aliens to travel back.
It needs to be two as the khamm can easily take out a lone marine with hive regen.
An interesting variation on the tactic I saw was to shift just outside the base,
and have a gorge clog over the shift protecting it from damage, along with a few hydras.
Tactics like this usually "escalate" the game very quickly, but I've seen too many shifts killed in the beta to really believe that this is 100% win anymore. And when the shifts die, you lose a lot of res.
Again, I'll chalk this it up to current marine teams sucking horribly, and not prioritizing. The shift itself is so fragile that it takes 2 AR clips I think at w0 to take it down. That's 3 seconds with 2 decent people (even if skulks are attacking them, they can usually survive long enough to unload on the shift). Once the shift is dead, the egg spam ceases and everything is over rapidly because you've lost 10+eggs(1 each) res.
These tales you mention of fighting shifts for what, 5 minutes, just make me think that not a single person on the marine team knew what he was doing. And grenade launchers are actually a much better counter to shifts than flamethrowers... but like I said, no specific weapon/counter is really needed. All a marine needs to do is unload 2 or 3 clips into the shift, and it won't even grow fully. If you have 3, it'll take a little longer but the entire fight should be over in less than 30 seconds, maybe a minute at most. That is, unless marines camp, suck, and/or try to kill skulks before the shifts themselves,
As I mentioned in another thread, there's some severe problems with marine teams' understanding of the game, something I noticed in the games I played yesterday anyway. There is no sense of urgency. I think it's maybe because marines generally move slower than aliens or that they have to build, but alien teams are rapidly starting to learn that the best thing to do is to LEAVE THE BASE and spread all over the map to cover every approach, be generally as aggressive as possible, and not in 1 group of 8 but 2 or 3 groups of 2-3-4. Marines, on the other hand, take their time, sitting around, building, and then everyone moves in a huge pack to some location and "sets up base" there, leaving 2-3 approaches completely uncovered. And guess what, they get rushed and beaconed, and lose the game... then apparently, aliens are OP.
To succeed, marines need to be EVEN MORE aggressive than aliens. There should be 1 person max building in base. After obs is done, that 1 person can even be the commander. Everyone else needs to be SPRINTING around the map, building RTs, mining up phase gates, knifing down alien RTs, sniping aline upgrades etc., not camping around the armory, or camping anywhere, unless the situation dictates (solo marine going in a hive is usually fail).
Forward shifts are no more OP than forward phase gates with minefields around them. Both end the game extremely quickly against a crappy team and if not shut down rapidly.
Oh, and you can play against a 35000 hours commander if you'd like. The result will be the same. The commander can't shoot or bite for their team, he can only tell them where the threats are and get them tools to defeat threats, as needed. It's up to each team member to filter this information and deliver the damage and accuracy where it matters.
"I just keep dropping shifts" ... at 15 res a pop? Wow, could have just dropped an onos egg ... but wait thats OP apparently.
So is shifting, whipping, cragging ... only shades themselves aren't 'op' apparently, yet now it's upgrade unlocks are though.
Sigh, why can't aliens win occasionally? It's been said in this thread ... 5-6 resnodes get you what you want. If you use what you got well, you win.