<!--quoteo(post=2023159:date=Nov 15 2012, 12:00 AM:name=Imbalanxd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Imbalanxd @ Nov 15 2012, 12:00 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2023159"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Protip, if you are losing to a0 marines while being a lerk, you are doing something very very wrong.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not saying I lose to them in a fight, but if you park and shoot it out you will. I want to know how much dps lerk spike does.
rhombusLerk QueenJoin Date: 2011-06-23Member: 106055Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
edited November 2012
<!--quoteo(post=2023165:date=Nov 14 2012, 09:11 AM:name=Destroid)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Destroid @ Nov 14 2012, 09:11 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2023165"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm not saying I lose to them in a fight, but if you park and shoot it out you will. I want to know how much dps lerk spike does.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You have access to the lua that holds those values too so you can look them up as well. Minimum lerk spike damage as 10, max is around 12-14 and I believe it may be random, don't quote me.
Also if alien comm goes carapace first then you're throwing an a3 equivalent against an a0/w1.
Lerks are great. I nearly always Lerk then onos. Lerks dont die if you forget ramboing. Dont forget to park your lerk somewhere high and dark (dont run on alien vision all the time) most people forget that lerks can attack AND SPIKE from almost any surface. Silence is absolutely FANTASTIC for lerks. Silence spikes? Marines have few ideas where you are. Then drop spore and run.
Dont fly straight. Dont sit on floors. Spore doesnt just damage marines it obscures vision. Regen, silence and adrenaline are my picks. Make sure you have alt fire on a decent button (I use my thumb button on my mouse). Get practice on "hovering" i.e. flap and back, flap and back.
Lerks rule and I am in great favour of dropping res requirements (so that I can lerk earlier)
Making cheaper lerks feels like an attractive way to keep them useful as support in mid to late game but is flawed conceptually as it also lets you make lerks significantly earlier into the game, even if it's only a 5-res reduction in cost. What lerks need is the same thing as every other lifeform - a way to scale so that their res cost is equally justified from the opening minutes of a game to the end.
Perhaps some mechanic making lower lifeforms cheaper to evolve with more hives might be in order? Would make gorge and fade more attractive lategame, too.
Don't get me wrong I would love 20 or 25 res lerks but I think it would be bad for balance to have lerks coming out that early in the game and I would probably lerk every game instead of just 2/3 of games I play as aliens :p
<!--quoteo(post=2023240:date=Nov 14 2012, 07:55 AM:name=RabidWeasel)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RabidWeasel @ Nov 14 2012, 07:55 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2023240"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Don't get me wrong I would love 20 or 25 res lerks but I think it would be bad for balance to have lerks coming out that early in the game and I would probably lerk every game instead of just 2/3 of games I play as aliens :p<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No it wouldn't. Lerks ARE balanced for the EARLY game as is! There's no reason to drag out their appearance until marines get all the tools to completely nullify them.
Lerks from 0 second gametime at 20 res, or make them stronger towards the end of the game.
Like for example spore rank 2 (slightly wider, slightly longer duration, uses slightly more energy) instead of umbra, give umbra to the gorge.
Regardless of which option is taken, Lerks need a speed increase back to where you don't need celerity. (and thus forego adrenaline which you're supposed to have)
moultanoCreator of ns_shiva.Join Date: 2002-12-14Member: 10806Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Gold, NS2 Community Developer, Pistachionauts
<!--quoteo(post=2022976:date=Nov 14 2012, 02:19 AM:name=Imbalanxd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Imbalanxd @ Nov 14 2012, 02:19 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2022976"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think you get the picture.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> That doesn't generalize though. Fades and Onos are both difficult to kill, and they are expensive. Gorges and skulks are easy to kill, and they are cheap. Lerks are easy to kill and they are expensive. What's wrong with this picture. :)
<!--quoteo(post=2023280:date=Nov 14 2012, 08:33 AM:name=MaximumSquid)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MaximumSquid @ Nov 14 2012, 08:33 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2023280"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Presently I don't agree. . . I think Lerk is very strong at 30 res; you can certainly solo a marine with a shotgun just by using spikes<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If the marine is at A0/ W0, sure. At marine A1/W0 they're even, with some luck or preparation for the Lerk they are even at A1/W1 too, and once the marines research either weapons or arms beyond that the Lerk is outmatched every time. This is why it needs to either be cheaper to exist more in the early game, or scale as much as marines do.
Wow, I don't agree with this at all. 20 Res Lerk = whole alien team can go Lerk right out the gate. If this were possible you would have to balance them to basically be no stronger than Skulks, which is not fun. And with the current Lerk balance it would be an absolute catastrophe, just a single good Lerk can pubstomp a mediocre marine team very easily. I hate to sound smug but anyone who thinks Lerks aren't worth 30 res in a pub game isn't playing them right IMO, find some good Youtube videos to watch or something. I can't comment on competitive balance and I wouldn't object to more tweaks, but I would rather see them be a reasonably powerful higher lifeform than a cheap throwaway unit.
<!--quoteo(post=2023134:date=Nov 14 2012, 08:33 AM:name=dumbo11)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (dumbo11 @ Nov 14 2012, 08:33 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2023134"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->IMHO balance-wise, having lerks earlier wouldn't change much. Suitable collective terms: "a nightmare of skulks", "an awwww of cute gorges", "a blur of fades", "a game-over of onos" and "a barn door of lerks".
Anyway, as I've said for fades, the problem is not necessarily the cost of the lerk, the problem is that the 30 res you spend on a lerk are 2/5 of an onos... and in those terms, the lerk is a waste of resource.
The problem/answer for aliens starts with working out how to fix the onos problem.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Unfortunately, having Lerks earlier is something that has been tried, and proven problematic. Zek basically outlines why, and I think I may have mentioned something to the effect of "it would require rebalancing the class" which is a terrifying now that it actually feels like its in a good place.
Basically, when you lower the res cost of Lerks to something like 20 or 25 pRes, you end up fighting skulks for a couple of minutes, and then suddenly you're in a reenactment of The Birds.
Yeah, making them cheaper seems right because they die so easily, but really its just that they have a high skill ceiling and a steep, unforgiving learning curve. Particularly their early game role.
Really. REALLY. Don't lower the cost of Lerks. It wont work out the way you want it to.
<!--quoteo(post=2023295:date=Nov 14 2012, 11:41 AM:name=Zek)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Zek @ Nov 14 2012, 11:41 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2023295"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Wow, I don't agree with this at all. 20 Res Lerk = whole alien team can go Lerk right out the gate. If this were possible you would have to balance them to basically be no stronger than Skulks, which is not fun. And with the current Lerk balance it would be an absolute catastrophe, just a single good Lerk can pubstomp a mediocre marine team very easily. I hate to sound smug but anyone who thinks Lerks aren't worth 30 res in a pub game isn't playing them right IMO, find some good Youtube videos to watch or something. I can't comment on competitive balance and I wouldn't object to more tweaks, but I would rather see them be a reasonably powerful higher lifeform than a cheap throwaway unit.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=2023295:date=Nov 14 2012, 08:41 AM:name=Zek)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Zek @ Nov 14 2012, 08:41 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2023295"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->anyone who thinks Lerks aren't worth 30 res in a pub game isn't playing them right IMO<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Pub games are wholly irrelevant. Infact, even in pub games where you have a couple of experienced marine players, Lerks are comet dust.
It's whether or not 30 res is worth it for a Lerk in an above noob-level game, where they are not. People do it, so do I, but that's only because Lerk is the only enjoyable class for me in this game. I can also stay alive for as long as I want, simply by not contributing much. I can pick the most excellent hiding spot ever and a *good* marine will still spot me in 2 seconds.
The cost is too high, or the class is too weak. There is simply no arguing this. <b>You can't balance the game around playing against complete beginners.</b>
<!--quoteo(post=2023309:date=Nov 14 2012, 12:58 PM:name=Metal Handkerchief)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Metal Handkerchief @ Nov 14 2012, 12:58 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2023309"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Pub games are wholly irrelevant. Infact, even in pub games where you have a couple of experienced marine players, Lerks are comet dust.
It's whether or not 30 res is worth it for a Lerk in an above noob-level game, where they are not. People do it, so do I, but that's only because Lerk is the only enjoyable class for me in this game. I can also stay alive for as long as I want, simply by not contributing much. I can pick the most excellent hiding spot ever and a *good* marine will still spot me in 2 seconds.
The cost is too high, or the class is too weak. There is simply no arguing this. <b>You can't balance the game around playing against complete beginners.</b><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Pub games are what 99% of NS2 players are playing exclusively. Skill imbalance is a constant factor which makes these discussions difficult - pairing experienced marines against mediocre Lerks is no more fair than pairing experienced Lerks against mediocre Marines. Lerks have a steep learning curve so it's hard for me to take these complaints seriously when my own experience has been so vastly different.
<!--quoteo(post=2023312:date=Nov 14 2012, 09:03 AM:name=Zek)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Zek @ Nov 14 2012, 09:03 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2023312"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Pub games are what 99% of NS2 players are playing exclusively. Skill imbalance blah blah<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You are missing the point. Bad players are only bad temporarily. All players eventually gain skill. I have played pub games exclusively full of experiened players. Doesn't matter if the server is full of people who play regularly together or just randoms, that pub game with nothing but skilled marines the Lerk has much lower value and a skulk will do you more good.
You are saying they should balance the game around bad players. Saying "Lerk is powerful in pub games" only works with the assumption that most of the players are newish to the game.
This is just a ludicrous stance to take on balance as low skill is only temporary. Eventually there are no players left who are beginners. And frankly, I'd never play something just because it's "powerful against noobs", that's probably the most unfun thing I could possibly imagine. Frankly your argument is so daft I'm beginning to think you're making fun of people.
moultanoCreator of ns_shiva.Join Date: 2002-12-14Member: 10806Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Gold, NS2 Community Developer, Pistachionauts
<!--quoteo(post=2023295:date=Nov 14 2012, 08:41 AM:name=Zek)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Zek @ Nov 14 2012, 08:41 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2023295"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Wow, I don't agree with this at all. 20 Res Lerk = whole alien team can go Lerk right out the gate. If this were possible you would have to balance them to basically be no stronger than Skulks, which is not fun. And with the current Lerk balance it would be an absolute catastrophe, just a single good Lerk can pubstomp a mediocre marine team very easily. I hate to sound smug but anyone who thinks Lerks aren't worth 30 res in a pub game isn't playing them right IMO, find some good Youtube videos to watch or something. I can't comment on competitive balance and I wouldn't object to more tweaks, but I would rather see them be a reasonably powerful higher lifeform than a cheap throwaway unit.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There are other parameters you could tweak though. Suppose you had 20 res lerks, but made the evolution time longer. Now a lerk rush is both scoutable (why are there no skulks on the field all of a sudden?) and vulnerable (well in that case, let's just hit the hive.) Early shotguns would be an effective counter.
If what you are saying is true that a whole team of lerks is game-ending good, why don't we see that now with 30 res?
I think there is a problem not with the cost of the lerk but with the cost of spores. When your average team has 1 lerk on it at any point in time, is it really worth it to get spores which are equally as expensive as other key upgrades, carapace, blink, bilebomb. Hell no. I would go as far as saying the cost of the spores upgrade should be reduced by 50% to reflect the fact that there are just never that many lerks on the team.
rhombusLerk QueenJoin Date: 2011-06-23Member: 106055Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
edited November 2012
<!--quoteo(post=2023260:date=Nov 14 2012, 11:14 AM:name=Metal Handkerchief)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Metal Handkerchief @ Nov 14 2012, 11:14 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2023260"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Regardless of which option is taken, Lerks need a speed increase back to where you don't need celerity. (and thus forego adrenaline which you're supposed to have)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Adrenaline is the training wheels for Lerks. You need a downside for not getting a movement upgrade. Instead of making celerity completely useless on the Lerk.. how about you learn to manage the energy pool you have and make use of forward shifts?
Everyone keeps saying that Lerks are expensive. Laughable. If you have more than 2 harvesters right off the bat, then it really doesn't take long for you to gain the 15 resources required to Lerk. Usually about 3-4 minutes if you're not constantly dying as a skulk. Takes about 5-8 minutes depending on how bad you're losing as a team to regain that 30 resources. In a usual game for me I usualy always have enough to relerk unless I got extremely greedy.
The only thing I see as expensive is the late game lerk. By then I'd have saved enough to onos or fade.
<!--quoteo(post=2023425:date=Nov 14 2012, 10:47 AM:name=SabaHell)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SabaHell @ Nov 14 2012, 10:47 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2023425"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Everyone keeps saying that Lerks are expensive. Laughable.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=2023425:date=Nov 14 2012, 10:47 AM:name=SabaHell)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SabaHell @ Nov 14 2012, 10:47 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2023425"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The only thing I see as expensive is the late game lerk. By then I'd have saved enough to onos or fade.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
HERP DERP Lerk is not expensive.
HERP DERP Lerk is expensive endgame and I'd rather go onos or fade.
Jesus. You just made an elaborate post to prove me and the rest of us right.
Why are you arguing against points reduction or end game upscaling of lerk then? Because arguing is fun?
rhombusLerk QueenJoin Date: 2011-06-23Member: 106055Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
edited November 2012
<!--quoteo(post=2023448:date=Nov 14 2012, 02:11 PM:name=Metal Handkerchief)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Metal Handkerchief @ Nov 14 2012, 02:11 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2023448"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->HERP DERP Lerk is not expensive.
HERP DERP Lerk is expensive endgame and I'd rather go onos or fade.
Jesus. You just made an elaborate post to prove me and the rest of us right.
Why are you arguing against points reduction or end game upscaling of lerk then? Because arguing is fun?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Because maybe you have absolutely no idea the crap that the lerk goes through in PT that I had to consistently put my foot down on? Lerk is expensive late game due to abilities cost just to keep up (poorly at that) in both tRes and energy pool usage. Don't give me attitude because I called your adrenaline lerk out.
This thread is about the cost of the lerk should be changed when it's fine where it's at. Isn't that the topic of this thread is it not? The second paragraph wasn't directed just towards you.
<!--quoteo(post=2023330:date=Nov 14 2012, 12:23 PM:name=moultano)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (moultano @ Nov 14 2012, 12:23 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2023330"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->There are other parameters you could tweak though. Suppose you had 20 res lerks, but made the evolution time longer. Now a lerk rush is both scoutable (why are there no skulks on the field all of a sudden?) and vulnerable (well in that case, let's just hit the hive.) Early shotguns would be an effective counter.
If what you are saying is true that a whole team of lerks is game-ending good, why don't we see that now with 30 res?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Okay, so...what? First, early skulk tactics already heavily rely on ambushes, so the reaction "Why are there no skulks on the field all of a sudden?" shouldn't be an uncommon one. If you're suggesting that the evolve time of the Lerk needs to be increased to the point where marines can Push far enough into the map to realize "Hey, theres no ambush, they all must be in the hive." Then thats a terrible idea.
Secondly, why in the world would you reward the marine team with a hive push because your team decided to evolve Lerks? That's a huge punishment for choosing to evolve a Lifeform which you want to only cost 20 res.
Finally, your solution to the "Lowering the Res costs lets Lerks come into play too quickly" argument is to increase their evolve time. Its a solution to a problem that is only created by lowering the Res cost. So then just don't lower it. Problem solved.
The reason entire teams don't dump 30 resource points into a Lerk is because it probably took them a few minutes to get to 30 Res, and the idea of Losing it all at once, and thus taking even longer to save for a Fade or an Onos, is very unappealing. If you lower the cost of the Lerk, then you begin to mitigate that effect, making it more desirable (because it has less of an impact on your Res pool) to evolve that lifeform.
As it stands, if you drop 30 res on a Lerk, and then die 30 seconds later, its going to be quite some time before you can evolve into a Lerk again, let alone the higher Lifeforms.
Please. PLEASE. Stop trying to fix something that isn't broken. You're just going to end up breaking it again and the Lerk deserves better.
<!--quoteo(post=2023448:date=Nov 14 2012, 02:11 PM:name=Metal Handkerchief)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Metal Handkerchief @ Nov 14 2012, 02:11 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2023448"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->HERP DERP Lerk is not expensive.
HERP DERP Lerk is expensive endgame and I'd rather go onos or fade.
Jesus. You just made an elaborate post to prove me and the rest of us right.
Why are you arguing against points reduction or end game upscaling of lerk then? Because arguing is fun?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The first use of expensive is refering to pRes. The second is refering to tRes. The "Late game Lerk" is one you would assume to have Spores, Umbra, Celerity, and Carapace, at least. The cost of the "Late game Lerk" is the 30 pRes to evolve, and the accumluated tRes to aquire these abilities. There are hidden costs here as well, such as the choice to evolve Umbra instead of Stomp, but lets not go there. The "Late game Lerk" is a great deal more expensive than the Early game Lerk.
<!--quoteo(post=2023077:date=Nov 14 2012, 06:34 AM:name=RedDragon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RedDragon @ Nov 14 2012, 06:34 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2023077"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This thread has confounded me. Everyone here agrees that Lerks are great as they are...but to hell with it lets change them anyway?
Yesterday it was a thread about how much Lerks suck. Today it's a thread about how awesome they are, but that they cost P.Res.
30 P.Res is perfectly justifiable for a Lerk, especially since you start with 20 P.Res. You get Poison Gas that bypasses 100% of Marine armor upgrades, you get Umbra that blocks 50% of bullets. This means that you are not only viable mid-game, you are viable end-game. All for 30 P.Res. Compare that to a 50 P.Res Fade, who is only relevant in mid-game, and you'll see my point. Lerk <i>is</i> pretty useless before Spores, but afterwards it vastly magnifies the usefulness of any other alien unit. <i>Especially</i> after they get Umbra.
Saying a Fade is more useful than a Lerk is completely debatable in my mind, and is never a 'given' fact unless you compare the two in a vacuum designed specifically to magnify the perceived usefulness of Fade, which is generally agreed to be the worst Alien life form around.
What about if lifeforms refunded a bit of their cost upon death? This would effectively lower the cost while maintaining the current timing in the game. It could even be an upgrade that the Khammander must research. It may even help with the alien mid-game, allowing more pressure from fades and lurks as they would be more common.
<!--quoteo(post=2023638:date=Nov 14 2012, 03:39 PM:name=DarkTitan94)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (DarkTitan94 @ Nov 14 2012, 03:39 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2023638"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I believe what the man said was rite 30 res for a damm weak fragile lerk is ridonkilous make it stronger or make it cheaper<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And I believe what I said is that they were wrong. Lerk is simply not weak unless you are not a good Lerk player. A good Lerk player knows their limitations, and which engagements will be advantageous for them. One lerk with spores can turn the tide of a Marine advance into a hive with even a few skulks. If the player survives, they are rewarded again in late game with Umbra, which is <i>another</i> ability that out-performs a lot of third-hive abilities. (Vortex and Xeno, I'm looking at you...)
<!--quoteo(post=2023639:date=Nov 14 2012, 03:39 PM:name=lastchaplain)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (lastchaplain @ Nov 14 2012, 03:39 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2023639"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What about if lifeforms refunded a bit of their cost upon death? This would effectively lower the cost while maintaining the current timing in the game. It could even be an upgrade that the Khammander must research. It may even help with the alien mid-game, allowing more pressure from fades and lurks as they would be more common.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
While I like this idea, I'm just not sure I can get behind it unless the Alien commander can no longer drop T.Res eggs of any kind. (Which is a limitation I don't really like.) As it stands now, a bad team will need constant mid-game unit drops from a commander or one good player to get an Onos egg. A good team won't need anything outside of their own P.Res to do well. So it works now, it just requires the commander and the player to be on the same page and talk to one another. That seems fair, and is a dynamic that works if people aren't Rambos.
EDIT: I did just have a thought though. What if Aliens got a partial res refund to the <i>commander</i> if they died on Infestation, but if they died off of Infestation they got diddly? It would enable a commander to defray a little of the cost of a dead life-form, and make it less punishing to keep dropping a Lerk egg for someone getting owned while genuinely trying to defend the hive. It would be just as punishing as it is now, but would reward people for trying to protect valuable real-estate.
Agreed with SpaceJew. Lerks are actually one of the few lifeforms which scale really well from the start to the end of the game IMO. And I think they're still useful with spike-strafing and surprise silent hit-and-run bites from behind. When they get spores it's even better for breaking clusters of marines and covering teammates' attacks. Umbra makes them viable for sieging the last 1/2 location(s).
I wish I could say the same for fades. With the vertical shadowstep vector gone, delay after blink to hit, and general uselessness of vortex (to be changed in 229?), they're hardly worth 50 res anymore.
I used to play a lot of fade but then decided to "learn" lerk since I never played it much before. Been having a LOT more fun and success with it, for 20 res less a "pop." Not bad IMO.
<!--quoteo(post=2022945:date=Nov 14 2012, 02:00 AM:name=moultano)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (moultano @ Nov 14 2012, 02:00 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2022945"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The problem is that because the lerk dies easily it's a waste to research abilities that rely on having a lot of lerks on your team. If they die they can't re-lerk for quite a while, so you're stuck with a bunch of beginning game skulks.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I just realized the central fallacy of this statement. It's only true if your commander doesn't intend on researching all the second-hive abilities, which is insane. My build order as commander is always a shift hive first. A shift hive first gives celerity to skulks. Celerity means that leap isn't really as required, which means I can research more useful abilities like Bile Bomb and Spores, which are always the two research paths I take since they vastly outperform leap as game-changing abilities. (Although I usually ask if anyone intends on going Lerk before researching it. Bile Bomb is by far the best second hive ability, with Spores or Blink being a close second. Leap is probably the lowest priority second hive ability for me as it changes very little of the Skulks core game-play.)
If you plan around only researching abilities for life forms that never die, then you'll end up with zero abilities researched. The idea behind researching abilities is to prolong the lifespan of higher life forms, so you're just wrong on so many levels here.
The Lerk is not a problem in terms of abilities. As has been stated repeatedly, he's beautifully balanced and should be left alone.
The problem is that because his cost is comparable to a Fade, he isn't a logical upgrade. If a Lerk player dies, particularly in the early game, particularly in the chaos of pub games (which are the main of the game whether you like it or not, let's not be elitist - I certainly don't have the spare time to dedicate to clan and league play, but I do love NS2)... He's resource-######.
There is <b>no risk</b> of the map being overpopulated by Lerks with the cost reduced, because the key difference remains between the Skulk and the Lerk; <b>the Skulk is free!</b>
To throw res away on Lerks repeatedly would inhibit a player's capacity to ever reach Fade or Onos. No semi-experienced player would do this. 30 res presently leans a small but significant degree too close to the Fade's cost, rendering the Lerk an obsolete class.
The basic purpose of this thread is as follows, keep this in mind:
<b>The Lerk costs too much, and is subsequently obsolete, due to not having a tactical value comparable to a Fade, and being a tremendous risk to the PRes balance of a player who elects to play him. He's fun, but not viable - to play him is to damage your own team's chances in exchange for his entertaining but ineffective gameplay mechanics.</b>
The Lerk is not a problem in terms of abilities. As has been stated repeatedly, he's beautifully balanced and should be left alone.
The problem is that because his cost is comparable to a Fade, he isn't a logical upgrade. If a Lerk player dies, particularly in the early game, particularly in the chaos of pub games (which are the main of the game whether you like it or not, let's not be elitist - I certainly don't have the spare time to dedicate to clan and league play, but I do love NS2)... He's resource-######.
There is <b>no risk</b> of the map being overpopulated by Lerks with the cost reduced, because the key difference remains between the Skulk and the Lerk; <b>the Skulk is free!</b>
To throw res away on Lerks repeatedly would inhibit a player's capacity to ever reach Fade or Onos. No semi-experienced player would do this. 30 res presently leans a small but significant degree too close to the Fade's cost, rendering the Lerk an obsolete class.
The basic purpose of this thread is as follows, keep this in mind:
<b>The Lerk costs too much, and is subsequently obsolete, due to not having a tactical value comparable to a Fade, and being a tremendous risk to the PRes balance of a player who elects to play him. He's fun, but not viable - to play him is to damage your own team's chances in exchange for his entertaining but ineffective gameplay mechanics.</b><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
As I said earlier (and I think SabaHell said it as well), reducing the Res cost of the Lerk has <b>already been tried</b>. And by the way, <b>it causes the map to be overpopulated with lerks very quickly</b>.
I'm not saying what I <b>think</b> will happen, I'm telling you it's been tried, and that's <b>exactly what happened</b>. Hold whatever opinion you want, however.
Comments
I'm not saying I lose to them in a fight, but if you park and shoot it out you will. I want to know how much dps lerk spike does.
You have access to the lua that holds those values too so you can look them up as well. Minimum lerk spike damage as 10, max is around 12-14 and I believe it may be random, don't quote me.
Also if alien comm goes carapace first then you're throwing an a3 equivalent against an a0/w1.
Dont fly straight. Dont sit on floors. Spore doesnt just damage marines it obscures vision. Regen, silence and adrenaline are my picks. Make sure you have alt fire on a decent button (I use my thumb button on my mouse). Get practice on "hovering" i.e. flap and back, flap and back.
Lerks rule and I am in great favour of dropping res requirements (so that I can lerk earlier)
Perhaps some mechanic making lower lifeforms cheaper to evolve with more hives might be in order? Would make gorge and fade more attractive lategame, too.
Don't get me wrong I would love 20 or 25 res lerks but I think it would be bad for balance to have lerks coming out that early in the game and I would probably lerk every game instead of just 2/3 of games I play as aliens :p
No it wouldn't. Lerks ARE balanced for the EARLY game as is! There's no reason to drag out their appearance until marines get all the tools to completely nullify them.
Lerks from 0 second gametime at 20 res, or make them stronger towards the end of the game.
Like for example spore rank 2 (slightly wider, slightly longer duration, uses slightly more energy) instead of umbra, give umbra to the gorge.
Regardless of which option is taken, Lerks need a speed increase back to where you don't need celerity. (and thus forego adrenaline which you're supposed to have)
Fades that cost 40 are next then I assume?
Presently I don't agree. . .
I think Lerk is very strong at 30 res; you can certainly solo a marine with a shotgun just by using spikes
Deny long hallways with gas and when you get umbra a marine by themselves has absolutely no chance to kill you without a insanely lucky nade shot
There's a lot there and out of the box having an entire team Lerk rush would be massively OP
So again, no. . .
That doesn't generalize though. Fades and Onos are both difficult to kill, and they are expensive. Gorges and skulks are easy to kill, and they are cheap. Lerks are easy to kill and they are expensive. What's wrong with this picture. :)
I think Lerk is very strong at 30 res; you can certainly solo a marine with a shotgun just by using spikes<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If the marine is at A0/ W0, sure. At marine A1/W0 they're even, with some luck or preparation for the Lerk they are even at A1/W1 too, and once the marines research either weapons or arms beyond that the Lerk is outmatched every time. This is why it needs to either be cheaper to exist more in the early game, or scale as much as marines do.
Anyway, as I've said for fades, the problem is not necessarily the cost of the lerk, the problem is that the 30 res you spend on a lerk are 2/5 of an onos... and in those terms, the lerk is a waste of resource.
The problem/answer for aliens starts with working out how to fix the onos problem.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Unfortunately, having Lerks earlier is something that has been tried, and proven problematic. Zek basically outlines why, and I think I may have mentioned something to the effect of "it would require rebalancing the class" which is a terrifying now that it actually feels like its in a good place.
Basically, when you lower the res cost of Lerks to something like 20 or 25 pRes, you end up fighting skulks for a couple of minutes, and then suddenly you're in a reenactment of The Birds.
Yeah, making them cheaper seems right because they die so easily, but really its just that they have a high skill ceiling and a steep, unforgiving learning curve. Particularly their early game role.
Really. REALLY. Don't lower the cost of Lerks. It wont work out the way you want it to.
<!--quoteo(post=2023295:date=Nov 14 2012, 11:41 AM:name=Zek)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Zek @ Nov 14 2012, 11:41 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2023295"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Wow, I don't agree with this at all. 20 Res Lerk = whole alien team can go Lerk right out the gate. If this were possible you would have to balance them to basically be no stronger than Skulks, which is not fun. And with the current Lerk balance it would be an absolute catastrophe, just a single good Lerk can pubstomp a mediocre marine team very easily. I hate to sound smug but anyone who thinks Lerks aren't worth 30 res in a pub game isn't playing them right IMO, find some good Youtube videos to watch or something. I can't comment on competitive balance and I wouldn't object to more tweaks, but I would rather see them be a reasonably powerful higher lifeform than a cheap throwaway unit.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
^ Yeah, pretty much this.
Pub games are wholly irrelevant. Infact, even in pub games where you have a couple of experienced marine players, Lerks are comet dust.
It's whether or not 30 res is worth it for a Lerk in an above noob-level game, where they are not. People do it, so do I, but that's only because Lerk is the only enjoyable class for me in this game. I can also stay alive for as long as I want, simply by not contributing much. I can pick the most excellent hiding spot ever and a *good* marine will still spot me in 2 seconds.
The cost is too high, or the class is too weak. There is simply no arguing this. <b>You can't balance the game around playing against complete beginners.</b>
It's whether or not 30 res is worth it for a Lerk in an above noob-level game, where they are not. People do it, so do I, but that's only because Lerk is the only enjoyable class for me in this game. I can also stay alive for as long as I want, simply by not contributing much. I can pick the most excellent hiding spot ever and a *good* marine will still spot me in 2 seconds.
The cost is too high, or the class is too weak. There is simply no arguing this. <b>You can't balance the game around playing against complete beginners.</b><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Pub games are what 99% of NS2 players are playing exclusively. Skill imbalance is a constant factor which makes these discussions difficult - pairing experienced marines against mediocre Lerks is no more fair than pairing experienced Lerks against mediocre Marines. Lerks have a steep learning curve so it's hard for me to take these complaints seriously when my own experience has been so vastly different.
You are missing the point. Bad players are only bad temporarily. All players eventually gain skill. I have played pub games exclusively full of experiened players. Doesn't matter if the server is full of people who play regularly together or just randoms, that pub game with nothing but skilled marines the Lerk has much lower value and a skulk will do you more good.
You are saying they should balance the game around bad players. Saying "Lerk is powerful in pub games" only works with the assumption that most of the players are newish to the game.
This is just a ludicrous stance to take on balance as low skill is only temporary. Eventually there are no players left who are beginners. And frankly, I'd never play something just because it's "powerful against noobs", that's probably the most unfun thing I could possibly imagine. Frankly your argument is so daft I'm beginning to think you're making fun of people.
There are other parameters you could tweak though. Suppose you had 20 res lerks, but made the evolution time longer. Now a lerk rush is both scoutable (why are there no skulks on the field all of a sudden?) and vulnerable (well in that case, let's just hit the hive.) Early shotguns would be an effective counter.
If what you are saying is true that a whole team of lerks is game-ending good, why don't we see that now with 30 res?
Adrenaline is the training wheels for Lerks. You need a downside for not getting a movement upgrade. Instead of making celerity completely useless on the Lerk.. how about you learn to manage the energy pool you have and make use of forward shifts?
Everyone keeps saying that Lerks are expensive. Laughable. If you have more than 2 harvesters right off the bat, then it really doesn't take long for you to gain the 15 resources required to Lerk. Usually about 3-4 minutes if you're not constantly dying as a skulk. Takes about 5-8 minutes depending on how bad you're losing as a team to regain that 30 resources. In a usual game for me I usualy always have enough to relerk unless I got extremely greedy.
The only thing I see as expensive is the late game lerk. By then I'd have saved enough to onos or fade.
<!--quoteo(post=2023425:date=Nov 14 2012, 10:47 AM:name=SabaHell)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SabaHell @ Nov 14 2012, 10:47 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2023425"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The only thing I see as expensive is the late game lerk. By then I'd have saved enough to onos or fade.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
HERP DERP Lerk is not expensive.
HERP DERP Lerk is expensive endgame and I'd rather go onos or fade.
Jesus. You just made an elaborate post to prove me and the rest of us right.
Why are you arguing against points reduction or end game upscaling of lerk then? Because arguing is fun?
HERP DERP Lerk is expensive endgame and I'd rather go onos or fade.
Jesus. You just made an elaborate post to prove me and the rest of us right.
Why are you arguing against points reduction or end game upscaling of lerk then? Because arguing is fun?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Because maybe you have absolutely no idea the crap that the lerk goes through in PT that I had to consistently put my foot down on? Lerk is expensive late game due to abilities cost just to keep up (poorly at that) in both tRes and energy pool usage. Don't give me attitude because I called your adrenaline lerk out.
This thread is about the cost of the lerk should be changed when it's fine where it's at. Isn't that the topic of this thread is it not? The second paragraph wasn't directed just towards you.
As for flap force: talk to Andi.
If what you are saying is true that a whole team of lerks is game-ending good, why don't we see that now with 30 res?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Okay, so...what? First, early skulk tactics already heavily rely on ambushes, so the reaction "Why are there no skulks on the field all of a sudden?" shouldn't be an uncommon one. If you're suggesting that the evolve time of the Lerk needs to be increased to the point where marines can Push far enough into the map to realize "Hey, theres no ambush, they all must be in the hive." Then thats a terrible idea.
Secondly, why in the world would you reward the marine team with a hive push because your team decided to evolve Lerks? That's a huge punishment for choosing to evolve a Lifeform which you want to only cost 20 res.
Finally, your solution to the "Lowering the Res costs lets Lerks come into play too quickly" argument is to increase their evolve time. Its a solution to a problem that is only created by lowering the Res cost. So then just don't lower it. Problem solved.
The reason entire teams don't dump 30 resource points into a Lerk is because it probably took them a few minutes to get to 30 Res, and the idea of Losing it all at once, and thus taking even longer to save for a Fade or an Onos, is very unappealing. If you lower the cost of the Lerk, then you begin to mitigate that effect, making it more desirable (because it has less of an impact on your Res pool) to evolve that lifeform.
As it stands, if you drop 30 res on a Lerk, and then die 30 seconds later, its going to be quite some time before you can evolve into a Lerk again, let alone the higher Lifeforms.
Please. PLEASE. Stop trying to fix something that isn't broken. You're just going to end up breaking it again and the Lerk deserves better.
<!--quoteo(post=2023448:date=Nov 14 2012, 02:11 PM:name=Metal Handkerchief)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Metal Handkerchief @ Nov 14 2012, 02:11 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2023448"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->HERP DERP Lerk is not expensive.
HERP DERP Lerk is expensive endgame and I'd rather go onos or fade.
Jesus. You just made an elaborate post to prove me and the rest of us right.
Why are you arguing against points reduction or end game upscaling of lerk then? Because arguing is fun?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The first use of expensive is refering to pRes. The second is refering to tRes. The "Late game Lerk" is one you would assume to have Spores, Umbra, Celerity, and Carapace, at least. The cost of the "Late game Lerk" is the 30 pRes to evolve, and the accumluated tRes to aquire these abilities. There are hidden costs here as well, such as the choice to evolve Umbra instead of Stomp, but lets not go there. The "Late game Lerk" is a great deal more expensive than the Early game Lerk.
Please learn to context before proceeding.
Please just...no...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
RD loves his lerk
Yes. Yes I do. Someone needs to. The poor little guy never gets the love he deserves. ;_;
30 P.Res is perfectly justifiable for a Lerk, especially since you start with 20 P.Res. You get Poison Gas that bypasses 100% of Marine armor upgrades, you get Umbra that blocks 50% of bullets. This means that you are not only viable mid-game, you are viable end-game. All for 30 P.Res. Compare that to a 50 P.Res Fade, who is only relevant in mid-game, and you'll see my point. Lerk <i>is</i> pretty useless before Spores, but afterwards it vastly magnifies the usefulness of any other alien unit. <i>Especially</i> after they get Umbra.
Saying a Fade is more useful than a Lerk is completely debatable in my mind, and is never a 'given' fact unless you compare the two in a vacuum designed specifically to magnify the perceived usefulness of Fade, which is generally agreed to be the worst Alien life form around.
And I believe what I said is that they were wrong. Lerk is simply not weak unless you are not a good Lerk player. A good Lerk player knows their limitations, and which engagements will be advantageous for them. One lerk with spores can turn the tide of a Marine advance into a hive with even a few skulks. If the player survives, they are rewarded again in late game with Umbra, which is <i>another</i> ability that out-performs a lot of third-hive abilities. (Vortex and Xeno, I'm looking at you...)
<!--quoteo(post=2023639:date=Nov 14 2012, 03:39 PM:name=lastchaplain)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (lastchaplain @ Nov 14 2012, 03:39 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2023639"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What about if lifeforms refunded a bit of their cost upon death? This would effectively lower the cost while maintaining the current timing in the game. It could even be an upgrade that the Khammander must research. It may even help with the alien mid-game, allowing more pressure from fades and lurks as they would be more common.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
While I like this idea, I'm just not sure I can get behind it unless the Alien commander can no longer drop T.Res eggs of any kind. (Which is a limitation I don't really like.) As it stands now, a bad team will need constant mid-game unit drops from a commander or one good player to get an Onos egg. A good team won't need anything outside of their own P.Res to do well. So it works now, it just requires the commander and the player to be on the same page and talk to one another. That seems fair, and is a dynamic that works if people aren't Rambos.
EDIT: I did just have a thought though. What if Aliens got a partial res refund to the <i>commander</i> if they died on Infestation, but if they died off of Infestation they got diddly? It would enable a commander to defray a little of the cost of a dead life-form, and make it less punishing to keep dropping a Lerk egg for someone getting owned while genuinely trying to defend the hive. It would be just as punishing as it is now, but would reward people for trying to protect valuable real-estate.
I wish I could say the same for fades. With the vertical shadowstep vector gone, delay after blink to hit, and general uselessness of vortex (to be changed in 229?), they're hardly worth 50 res anymore.
I used to play a lot of fade but then decided to "learn" lerk since I never played it much before. Been having a LOT more fun and success with it, for 20 res less a "pop." Not bad IMO.
I just realized the central fallacy of this statement. It's only true if your commander doesn't intend on researching all the second-hive abilities, which is insane. My build order as commander is always a shift hive first. A shift hive first gives celerity to skulks. Celerity means that leap isn't really as required, which means I can research more useful abilities like Bile Bomb and Spores, which are always the two research paths I take since they vastly outperform leap as game-changing abilities. (Although I usually ask if anyone intends on going Lerk before researching it. Bile Bomb is by far the best second hive ability, with Spores or Blink being a close second. Leap is probably the lowest priority second hive ability for me as it changes very little of the Skulks core game-play.)
If you plan around only researching abilities for life forms that never die, then you'll end up with zero abilities researched. The idea behind researching abilities is to prolong the lifespan of higher life forms, so you're just wrong on so many levels here.
The Lerk is not a problem in terms of abilities. As has been stated repeatedly, he's beautifully balanced and should be left alone.
The problem is that because his cost is comparable to a Fade, he isn't a logical upgrade. If a Lerk player dies, particularly in the early game, particularly in the chaos of pub games (which are the main of the game whether you like it or not, let's not be elitist - I certainly don't have the spare time to dedicate to clan and league play, but I do love NS2)... He's resource-######.
There is <b>no risk</b> of the map being overpopulated by Lerks with the cost reduced, because the key difference remains between the Skulk and the Lerk; <b>the Skulk is free!</b>
To throw res away on Lerks repeatedly would inhibit a player's capacity to ever reach Fade or Onos. No semi-experienced player would do this. 30 res presently leans a small but significant degree too close to the Fade's cost, rendering the Lerk an obsolete class.
The basic purpose of this thread is as follows, keep this in mind:
<b>The Lerk costs too much, and is subsequently obsolete, due to not having a tactical value comparable to a Fade, and being a tremendous risk to the PRes balance of a player who elects to play him. He's fun, but not viable - to play him is to damage your own team's chances in exchange for his entertaining but ineffective gameplay mechanics.</b>
The Lerk is not a problem in terms of abilities. As has been stated repeatedly, he's beautifully balanced and should be left alone.
The problem is that because his cost is comparable to a Fade, he isn't a logical upgrade. If a Lerk player dies, particularly in the early game, particularly in the chaos of pub games (which are the main of the game whether you like it or not, let's not be elitist - I certainly don't have the spare time to dedicate to clan and league play, but I do love NS2)... He's resource-######.
There is <b>no risk</b> of the map being overpopulated by Lerks with the cost reduced, because the key difference remains between the Skulk and the Lerk; <b>the Skulk is free!</b>
To throw res away on Lerks repeatedly would inhibit a player's capacity to ever reach Fade or Onos. No semi-experienced player would do this. 30 res presently leans a small but significant degree too close to the Fade's cost, rendering the Lerk an obsolete class.
The basic purpose of this thread is as follows, keep this in mind:
<b>The Lerk costs too much, and is subsequently obsolete, due to not having a tactical value comparable to a Fade, and being a tremendous risk to the PRes balance of a player who elects to play him. He's fun, but not viable - to play him is to damage your own team's chances in exchange for his entertaining but ineffective gameplay mechanics.</b><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
As I said earlier (and I think SabaHell said it as well), reducing the Res cost of the Lerk has <b>already been tried</b>. And by the way, <b>it causes the map to be overpopulated with lerks very quickly</b>.
I'm not saying what I <b>think</b> will happen, I'm telling you it's been tried, and that's <b>exactly what happened</b>. Hold whatever opinion you want, however.