<!--quoteo(post=2023189:date=Nov 14 2012, 09:58 AM:name=kk20)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (kk20 @ Nov 14 2012, 09:58 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2023189"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think the aliens need an ability to see the marines through walls. Perhaps it could be thought of as a sort of pheromone detector. Maybe a fear detector. The smell of fear perhaps. Perhaps aliens could also evolve stronger bites and swipes. Almost focusing their attacks maybe.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
^ lol. Is there actually any official reason why focus isn't in NS2?
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Certain abilities or specializations would promote better team coordination, beyond merely covering someone while they build, or fire grenades around the corner. More than merely standing back with a welder to repair an exosuit. That is the literal extent of the current squad level gameplay. The commander level, with the strategic view and objectives, can deal with coordinated attacks and higher level objectives, but that doesn't touch the players, except in the broadest sense of winning or losing the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Argh, no no no no no no no.
Communication is key to this game, and the extent of squad level teamplay is NOT so ridiculously limited as you've made out here! The commander needs to be communicating effectively and frequently with the team, but SO DO THE REST OF THE TEAM MEMBERS. The role of the commander is not <i>just</i> the strategic and higher level gameplay, but also that much more basic level gameplay that really, honestly, does touch the marines: not only in terms of keeping his ninja pair who sneaked into the back of a hive alive, but also alerting his squad members to nearby threats, providing them with health, ammo, weapons, structures etc that they need, and so on.
The best team coordination comes from a team that communicates well, led by a good commander who also communicates well.
The same holds true for aliens: communication, fast response and close-knit teamplay are absolutely essential. I've found so many people on pub servers who are great communicators (not to say they jabber on as much as me, mind), who alert the whole team to enemy threats and who respond to these alerts rapidly and appropriately. I don't know what my win/loss ratio is (although I'm fairly sure it's well above 2), but I know that all but perhaps a handful of my losses have been <b>entirely</b> due to poor team coordination, caused by - or at least reflected in - poor or non-existent communication.
As in NS1, rambos really are a BAD thing for this game!
re: the medic packs taken off the commander - I can see this as an alternative gameplay mechanic, and it *might* encourage more teamplay, but I'm not convinced that it would be any more effective than actually just having a couple of players on a server who are vocally updating, coordinating and encouraging their teammates.
I've made a conscious effort in NS2 to be vocally positive and communicative. So far it has worked wonderfully; I've made some awesome friends this way, and I recommend it to everyone to try out :)
<!--quoteo(post=2023269:date=Nov 14 2012, 09:24 AM:name=Roobubba)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Roobubba @ Nov 14 2012, 09:24 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2023269"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Argh, no no no no no no no.
Communication is key to this game, and the extent of squad level teamplay is NOT so ridiculously limited as you've made out here! The commander needs to be communicating effectively and frequently with the team, but SO DO THE REST OF THE TEAM MEMBERS. The role of the commander is not <i>just</i> the strategic and higher level gameplay, but also that much more basic level gameplay that really, honestly, does touch the marines: not only in terms of keeping his ninja pair who sneaked into the back of a hive alive, but also alerting his squad members to nearby threats, providing them with health, ammo, weapons, structures etc that they need, and so on.
The best team coordination comes from a team that communicates well, led by a good commander who also communicates well.
The same holds true for aliens: communication, fast response and close-knit teamplay are absolutely essential. I've found so many people on pub servers who are great communicators (not to say they jabber on as much as me, mind), who alert the whole team to enemy threats and who respond to these alerts rapidly and appropriately. I don't know what my win/loss ratio is (although I'm fairly sure it's well above 2), but I know that all but perhaps a handful of my losses have been <b>entirely</b> due to poor team coordination, caused by - or at least reflected in - poor or non-existent communication.
As in NS1, rambos really are a BAD thing for this game!
re: the medic packs taken off the commander - I can see this as an alternative gameplay mechanic, and it *might* encourage more teamplay, but I'm not convinced that it would be any more effective than actually just having a couple of players on a server who are vocally updating, coordinating and encouraging their teammates.
I've made a conscious effort in NS2 to be vocally positive and communicative. So far it has worked wonderfully; I've made some awesome friends this way, and I recommend it to everyone to try out :)
Roo<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thank you for sharing a constructive and thought out counter-argument. And I would agree that vocalization is the key feature that allows better coordination and provides the single largest benefit to gameplay. But voip is already in the game. And the rest of your points mostly touch on the commander, which I do not dispute as being a powerful asset to team play. But I stand behind my arguments that player-to-player interaction is lacking. Voice and other communication only allows players to utilize the tools they already have to interact with each other. They need more ways to interact. They need TACTICAL tools, rather than INDIVIDUAL or STRATEGIC tools. I don't propose a medic or a chaingun because that would make an individual able to single handedly destroy everything. I make these suggestions to emphasize the potential for interacting beneficially with other players. To heal them or provide suppressive fire to allow a push to move forward down a contested hallway.
If the other suggestions I touched on, such as night vision or a motion tracker are too powerful, force them to be in a shared item slot with jetpacks. The marine could get ONE but not more. The night vision marine takes the lead point when advancing into a darkened room, the jetpack marine takes that role when moving into an open courtyard or a room with a high ceiling. Motion trackers provide assistance when dealing with corners, since they ping through walls. I proposed these ideas to show how they would interact to promote BETTER team play. To enhance the experience already present in the game. Aliens typically gain this information by sacrificing skulks in a suicide charge. And they already benefit from the xenocide upgrade, which allows them to deal significant damage with their suicide. The goal is the same, the method is asymmetrical. So I put these suggestions forward for the marines. Yes, the commander can scan, and tell the marines what is going on. So there is overlap there.
For those who are attempting to derail this discussion:
This thread has turned in a direction I did not intend. Most of the posts have nothing to do with serious discussion and have instead been thinly veiled ad hominem attacks against myself. You do not have to like my opinions, and I encourage discourse and civil discussion of all suggestions. I have maintained formal decorum in my posts, to remove as much emotional bias as possible. I am not repentant.
Comments
I was indeed making fun of him the whole game on mumble with my boys because of how monotone his voice is.
It almost made me not want to listen to him as my commander. But, we got some laughs and a free win out of 6 minute Ono's.
Again it was fairly obvious to me that the game he wants and the game the NS2 developers has envisioned are not the same game.
I personally love marines as they are. Give me a jetpack and an assault rifle and I will have fun for days.
^ lol. Is there actually any official reason why focus isn't in NS2?
Argh, no no no no no no no.
Communication is key to this game, and the extent of squad level teamplay is NOT so ridiculously limited as you've made out here! The commander needs to be communicating effectively and frequently with the team, but SO DO THE REST OF THE TEAM MEMBERS. The role of the commander is not <i>just</i> the strategic and higher level gameplay, but also that much more basic level gameplay that really, honestly, does touch the marines: not only in terms of keeping his ninja pair who sneaked into the back of a hive alive, but also alerting his squad members to nearby threats, providing them with health, ammo, weapons, structures etc that they need, and so on.
The best team coordination comes from a team that communicates well, led by a good commander who also communicates well.
The same holds true for aliens: communication, fast response and close-knit teamplay are absolutely essential. I've found so many people on pub servers who are great communicators (not to say they jabber on as much as me, mind), who alert the whole team to enemy threats and who respond to these alerts rapidly and appropriately. I don't know what my win/loss ratio is (although I'm fairly sure it's well above 2), but I know that all but perhaps a handful of my losses have been <b>entirely</b> due to poor team coordination, caused by - or at least reflected in - poor or non-existent communication.
As in NS1, rambos really are a BAD thing for this game!
re: the medic packs taken off the commander - I can see this as an alternative gameplay mechanic, and it *might* encourage more teamplay, but I'm not convinced that it would be any more effective than actually just having a couple of players on a server who are vocally updating, coordinating and encouraging their teammates.
I've made a conscious effort in NS2 to be vocally positive and communicative. So far it has worked wonderfully; I've made some awesome friends this way, and I recommend it to everyone to try out :)
Roo
Communication is key to this game, and the extent of squad level teamplay is NOT so ridiculously limited as you've made out here! The commander needs to be communicating effectively and frequently with the team, but SO DO THE REST OF THE TEAM MEMBERS. The role of the commander is not <i>just</i> the strategic and higher level gameplay, but also that much more basic level gameplay that really, honestly, does touch the marines: not only in terms of keeping his ninja pair who sneaked into the back of a hive alive, but also alerting his squad members to nearby threats, providing them with health, ammo, weapons, structures etc that they need, and so on.
The best team coordination comes from a team that communicates well, led by a good commander who also communicates well.
The same holds true for aliens: communication, fast response and close-knit teamplay are absolutely essential. I've found so many people on pub servers who are great communicators (not to say they jabber on as much as me, mind), who alert the whole team to enemy threats and who respond to these alerts rapidly and appropriately. I don't know what my win/loss ratio is (although I'm fairly sure it's well above 2), but I know that all but perhaps a handful of my losses have been <b>entirely</b> due to poor team coordination, caused by - or at least reflected in - poor or non-existent communication.
As in NS1, rambos really are a BAD thing for this game!
re: the medic packs taken off the commander - I can see this as an alternative gameplay mechanic, and it *might* encourage more teamplay, but I'm not convinced that it would be any more effective than actually just having a couple of players on a server who are vocally updating, coordinating and encouraging their teammates.
I've made a conscious effort in NS2 to be vocally positive and communicative. So far it has worked wonderfully; I've made some awesome friends this way, and I recommend it to everyone to try out :)
Roo<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thank you for sharing a constructive and thought out counter-argument. And I would agree that vocalization is the key feature that allows better coordination and provides the single largest benefit to gameplay. But voip is already in the game. And the rest of your points mostly touch on the commander, which I do not dispute as being a powerful asset to team play. But I stand behind my arguments that player-to-player interaction is lacking. Voice and other communication only allows players to utilize the tools they already have to interact with each other. They need more ways to interact. They need TACTICAL tools, rather than INDIVIDUAL or STRATEGIC tools. I don't propose a medic or a chaingun because that would make an individual able to single handedly destroy everything. I make these suggestions to emphasize the potential for interacting beneficially with other players. To heal them or provide suppressive fire to allow a push to move forward down a contested hallway.
If the other suggestions I touched on, such as night vision or a motion tracker are too powerful, force them to be in a shared item slot with jetpacks. The marine could get ONE but not more. The night vision marine takes the lead point when advancing into a darkened room, the jetpack marine takes that role when moving into an open courtyard or a room with a high ceiling. Motion trackers provide assistance when dealing with corners, since they ping through walls. I proposed these ideas to show how they would interact to promote BETTER team play. To enhance the experience already present in the game. Aliens typically gain this information by sacrificing skulks in a suicide charge. And they already benefit from the xenocide upgrade, which allows them to deal significant damage with their suicide. The goal is the same, the method is asymmetrical. So I put these suggestions forward for the marines. Yes, the commander can scan, and tell the marines what is going on. So there is overlap there.
For those who are attempting to derail this discussion:
This thread has turned in a direction I did not intend. Most of the posts have nothing to do with serious discussion and have instead been thinly veiled ad hominem attacks against myself. You do not have to like my opinions, and I encourage discourse and civil discussion of all suggestions. I have maintained formal decorum in my posts, to remove as much emotional bias as possible. I am not repentant.
Have a good day.