Spore is great, but Lerks need to be cheaper.
moultano
Creator of ns_shiva. Join Date: 2002-12-14 Member: 10806Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Gold, NS2 Community Developer, Pistachionauts
Creator of ns_shiva. Join Date: 2002-12-14 Member: 10806Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Gold, NS2 Community Developer, Pistachionauts
<div class="IPBDescription">Researching spore and having a team of Lerks is too much of a risk</div>Everything about the lerk feels great. The abilities all work well. Lerks die very easily. This is fine.
The problem is that because the lerk dies easily it's a waste to research abilities that rely on having a lot of lerks on your team. If they die they can't re-lerk for quite a while, so you're stuck with a bunch of beginning game skulks.
Make lerks 15-20 res, and I think we'll start seeing spore sometimes researched before leap. This would shake up the early game a bit.
The problem is that because the lerk dies easily it's a waste to research abilities that rely on having a lot of lerks on your team. If they die they can't re-lerk for quite a while, so you're stuck with a bunch of beginning game skulks.
Make lerks 15-20 res, and I think we'll start seeing spore sometimes researched before leap. This would shake up the early game a bit.
Comments
The lerk is presently;-
1) Very fun to play, in a supporting/harrassing way.
2) Well balanced, when played properly.
3) Prohibitively expensive, when compared to the tactically more useful Gorge. 15 res would be a nice compromise between overpopulation of Lerks and their near-absence from most games. 30 implies that a Lerk approaches a Fade in terms of combat value, during the very brief window between 'Carapace Skulk' and 'Blink Fade' in the usual pub game timeline. Just ain't so - a Lerk is most useful supporting the skulks with Spikes and Spore, and defending early game RTs against aggressive lone-wolf marines.
He's early game support, with late-game value defensive value using Umbra - except you can't afford him in the early game and he's not worth the expense when you need a Fade or Onos later.
Good call, moultano =)
I agree that lerks are a huge and fragile investment at the moment. 15 or 20 res would be good compromise. Lerks won't magically become more powerful, but right now there's just no reason to go lerk when the fade is just around the corner in terms of cost.
I think you get the picture.
spores are amazing at blocking off corridors (and killing noobs) and umbra actually reduces marine damage by 50%. that's waaaay too powerful to be the same cost as a shotgun.
It would "shake up the game" for sure... towards not being playable.
... and add res for kill. :)
so wrong, gorges are incredibly tactically restricted due to them being extremely vulnerable, Lerks can quickly go anywhere on the map to defend or put pressure
lerk price is fine, his upgrades on the other hands are just not worth the res, when you become good enough to be able to accuratly spam spikes on marines while moving from afar spore just become obsolete, even though it has the advantage of going through armor, the conditions for it to be used (melee range, really small corridor/room) are not worth it, and umbra costs too much (50res, come on.)
i really think they should revert it back to free upgrades depending on the number of hives aliens have.
I hope you will find it interesting.
lerk price is fine, his upgrades on the other hands are just not worth the res, when you become good enough to be able to accuratly spam spikes on marines while moving from afar spore just become obsolete, even though it has the advantage of going through armor, the conditions for it to be used (melee range, really small corridor/room) are not worth it, and umbra costs too much (50res, come on.)
i really think they should revert it back to free upgrades depending on the number of hives aliens have.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
the abilities are support... you're only thinking how can they benefit you alone.
your skulk friend is attacking the marine extractor 30 metres from marine main base, you use spores and spray them all over the intersecting corridor to block marine access.
your team is attacking the phase gate at a minibase like nano grid, you drop spores all around the phase gate so any marine who comes through will take 40-60 damage for free and won't be able to see ######.
your onos or fade is being focused, you spam umbra on him and basically give him double effective hp against exosuits and marines because they only deal 50% damage to targets inside the umbra cloud.
the only reason the abilities are difficult to buy as a commander is that if you have the usual 6-8 players on your team, you ideally only want 1-2 lerks. therefore it's not as desirable as leap or blink and furthermore you really need the adrenaline upgrade before they become useable, due to high energy cost.
With no res when death, you will try to die less, since now if you die, you get "penalised" for die. and NEVER rfk, it would destroy the teamplay since people will try to get rather kills then to destroy stuff and help the commander.
Please just...no...
it has to be a really small corridor otherwise they can stick to the side walls and be fine and you better hope you won't face the marines when you go in that corridor otherwise you're a goner (unless they have no weapon upgrades and terrible aim that is). Not to say that it'll "block" (if it actually does) them for only 8sec. I'd rather stay at the end of that corridor and spam spikes on them safely (due to my awesome flying/aiming skill /jk) which will have the same "blocking" effect while actually killing them with less risks ;)
<!--quoteo(post=2023054:date=Nov 14 2012, 05:01 AM:name=tarquinbb)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (tarquinbb @ Nov 14 2012, 05:01 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2023054"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->your team is attacking the phase gate at a minibase like nano grid, you drop spores all around the phase gate so any marine who comes through will take 40-60 damage for free and won't be able to see ######.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
that's a really good use of spore but unfortunately that's way too specific to be considered useful especially since you could just spike that phasegate to death and be done with it. As for umbra it's a really good skill just as it was in ns1 since it hasn't been changed.
Yet he costs a great deal, in addition to being very fragile. A lerk can certainly exploit his agility to avoid serious damage, but a moment's ill luck can see him dead, and the player using him 30 res down in the early game. On a losing team, this relegates him to Skulk often until the end of the game.
A Gorge, who can lock down a room with clogs, harass infantry with hydras, heal the Fade and Onos and do all of this without a single upgrade for <b>10 Res</b>, compared to a unit who can only distract, harass and eliminate loners until upgraded, for three times as much?
Insane. Poor little ###### just needs to cost less. He's extortionate without significant value. A luxury, a toy, not a tactically relevant option when compared to lethal Fade for much less than double the cost. He's a weaker, flying skulk with some upgrade options also related solely to support, who costs three Gorges or 35% of an Onos.
Such as twinning cara and regen, or adrenaline and celerity and cara.
I don't understand why you can only pick one from each chamber?
Anyway, stop taking this off topic.. this is about the Lerk not RFK.
<!--quoteo(post=2023077:date=Nov 14 2012, 04:34 AM:name=RedDragon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RedDragon @ Nov 14 2012, 04:34 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2023077"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This thread has confounded me. Everyone here agrees that Lerks are great as they are...but to hell with it lets change them anyway?
Please just...no...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There is nothing wrong with this thread. A 1-liter bottle of water is great as it is. But 20 Dollars for this could be a bit expensive :>.
As it stands now, you can evolve rather quickly into a Lerk if your commander secures a couple of early resource nodes, but you may have to wait an extra minute or two if they decide to get a fast second hive.
We're talking about the difference between Lerking after a few minutes, and Lerking after five minutes.
You don't need Lerks appearing earlier than they do now, and you certainly don't need entire teams evolving into Lerks just because its cheap.
If you think 30 res is too expensive for the lifeform, that's one thing, and I'm inclined to agree. But only to the extent that the comparable cost on the marine team nets you a jetpack and a shotgun, which severely out performs the Lerk in terms of damage output.
But then, we've all agreed that the Lerk isn't meant to be a massive damage unit anyway, so I don't really understand the issue you're having.
The reality is that you can't nerf the Lerk at all without making it useless, simply because it has such poor late game scaling. But you cant buff it either because it is such a powerful early game unit.
Its in a precarious place, but we all seem to agree that its a decent place.
So please, don't change it. And certainly don't make it any cheaper than it already is.
2) No res when dead affects the relative cost of lifeforms (makes things cost more).
Therefore, there is no point discussing lifeforms costs before no res for dead is removed, as it will change res income.
The same is true for RFK, but it's a bit more controversial mechanic, and no res when dead is bad independently of RFK.
There is nothing wrong with this thread. A 1-liter bottle of water is great as it is. But 20 Dollars for this could be a bit expensive :>.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
20 dollars is not expensive when a 1-liter bottle of piss is 5 dollars and and any drinks more tasty than water cost 50-75 dollars.
As it stands now, you can evolve rather quickly into a Lerk if your commander secures a couple of early resource nodes, but you may have to wait an extra minute or two if they decide to get a fast second hive.
We're talking about the difference between Lerking after a few minutes, and Lerking after five minutes.
You don't need Lerks appearing earlier than they do now, and you certainly don't need entire teams evolving into Lerks just because its cheap.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
IMHO balance-wise, having lerks earlier wouldn't change much. Suitable collective terms: "a nightmare of skulks", "an awwww of cute gorges", "a blur of fades", "a game-over of onos" and "a barn door of lerks".
Anyway, as I've said for fades, the problem is not necessarily the cost of the lerk, the problem is that the 30 res you spend on a lerk are 2/5 of an onos... and in those terms, the lerk is a waste of resource.
The problem/answer for aliens starts with working out how to fix the onos problem.
Yet he costs a great deal, in addition to being very fragile. A lerk can certainly exploit his agility to avoid serious damage, but a moment's ill luck can see him dead, and the player using him 30 res down in the early game. On a losing team, this relegates him to Skulk often until the end of the game.
A Gorge, who can lock down a room with clogs, harass infantry with hydras, heal the Fade and Onos and do all of this without a single upgrade for <b>10 Res</b>, compared to a unit who can only distract, harass and eliminate loners until upgraded, for three times as much?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
practically all you've said is wrong mate :
-Fades are the ones currently considered (by like practically everyone) a waste of res compared to the usefulness of gorges,lerks or onos.
-lerks are completely, totally viable for attack and defense
-Spikes deal a tremendous amount of damage (more per spikes then marines with weapon 1)
-the only "support" skill lerks have is umbra, everything else is designed to kill, contrary to gorges.
- 30 res isn't "a great deal" , you can go lerk extremely quickly and lowering the res required would absolutly, totally, completely retarded and would end up in an insta win for aliens.
-hydras don't harass anything and can be killed with a single smg load without being able to shoot back. They're just meant to be a support unit to help balance a fight in favor of the aliens who would fight near them and are pretty much wasted res most of the time.
-clogs don't lock down anything, they just buy you time (like 10 sec) to flee and/or cripple a marine before your team come to the rescue, they can also be used to absorb a couple grenades when gl are coming to your hives but that's it.
TL;DR : Stop talking nonsense and play more.
Such as twinning cara and regen, or adrenaline and celerity and cara.
I don't understand why you can only pick one from each chamber?
Anyway, stop taking this off topic.. this is about the Lerk not RFK.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Certain combinations such as cara+regen might be too powerful. But it would be nice if we actually had a choice other than picking whatever upgrade the commander researches first. I still believe building a shell should enable all shell upgrades at the same time, perhaps at a higher cost. So that you can choose between them. Or at least let us swap them out.
the a0 marine does not even stand a chance against a basic lerk but since new players stand still and can't aim for sh*t they just think lerks suck.
<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/wiki/index.php/Assault_Rifle" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/wiki/inde...p/Assault_Rifle</a>
<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/wiki/index.php/Lerk" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/wiki/index.php/Lerk</a>
ps: i wanted to record ant post a vid myself but i just stumbled upon that vid : <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fPR4zR_SGTg" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fPR4zR_SGTg</a>
it shows exactly how lerks should be played imo and it's by no mean some kind of pro gamer super high lvl stuff