The Problems with Fade, Lerk, Onos.
Destroid
Join Date: 2011-10-25 Member: 129240Members
Join Date: 2011-10-25 Member: 129240Members
As I see it, the major problems for Fade and Lerk stem not from the lifeforms themselves (which are quite dangerous, especially to a lone marine) but to the way NS2 is structured overall. Since RFK doesn't exist, NS2 is won by pushing infrastructure and bases, while the Lerk and Fade are about harassment. They both are good at killing marines wandering around the map, but doing so is ultimately fruitless with weapon pick-up, fast marine spawn, no RFK, and armory rapid and complete healing. Both of them are poor at destroying buildings (worse than the skulk) and also relatively poor base defenders due to their low health and high cost forcing a rapid retreat after a single encounter, even against marines with no upgrade weapons. All of these problems are exacerbated as marine upgrades roll in, and the raider role is further punished by the compulsory carapace upgrad disqualifying regeneration. The lerks traditional harassment weapon has also seen a considerable reduction in power by being dropped like a mine instead of fired, which could once effectively pester marines camping a base, now such attempts will often meet with death if you try to gas more than a pair of marines.
As a result of the other lifeforms inability to attack defended bases, the onos has bloated attributes that make it the sole life-form to carry the alien team. It's fast, effective against all targets and it's might compensates for the lacklustre middle lifeforms, especially in the role of base defence and attack with his staying power over 7x that of a fade (when both have carapace). It's is the power of this lifeform alone that carries the aliens to the 50/50 mark in pub play.
Other structural problems that contribute to the aliens inability to force attrition on the marines is the lopsided spawn and healing abilities. Marines spawn faster, their free unit is more capable and they have more ready access to healing around the map (the healing abilities of the fragile crag are almost worthless, unless a 3 tres commander ability is used) yet their upgrades make them even more powerful in a stand-up fight. Another factor is the non-recoverable cost of alien lifeforms. Compare the capability of a shotgun/jetpack marine (30pres, 20 recoverable) to a lerk (30), or a Fade to a single gun exo. While the fade is certainly agile, it cannot hope to defeat any but the poorest exo pilot and will be forced to retreat and find better targets elsewhere. What's more, the aliens even have more appealing raiding targets: The spur, shell and veil are all very fragile and costly to replace, while the arms lab is tough, cheaper and does not need to research it's upgrades a second time. Even the observatory, the weakest marine building, is considerably stronger and easier to replace.
If the underlying structure of the game doesn't change, the lerk and especially the fade need to be made more capable of helping their team, especially in the late game.
TLDR; Lerk and Fade are good at certain things, but those things don't help you win games in NS2. This is why skulk, gorge, onos is the most effective play. Still, it's a very good game regardless, and pretty easily the best FPS I've played in years.
As a result of the other lifeforms inability to attack defended bases, the onos has bloated attributes that make it the sole life-form to carry the alien team. It's fast, effective against all targets and it's might compensates for the lacklustre middle lifeforms, especially in the role of base defence and attack with his staying power over 7x that of a fade (when both have carapace). It's is the power of this lifeform alone that carries the aliens to the 50/50 mark in pub play.
Other structural problems that contribute to the aliens inability to force attrition on the marines is the lopsided spawn and healing abilities. Marines spawn faster, their free unit is more capable and they have more ready access to healing around the map (the healing abilities of the fragile crag are almost worthless, unless a 3 tres commander ability is used) yet their upgrades make them even more powerful in a stand-up fight. Another factor is the non-recoverable cost of alien lifeforms. Compare the capability of a shotgun/jetpack marine (30pres, 20 recoverable) to a lerk (30), or a Fade to a single gun exo. While the fade is certainly agile, it cannot hope to defeat any but the poorest exo pilot and will be forced to retreat and find better targets elsewhere. What's more, the aliens even have more appealing raiding targets: The spur, shell and veil are all very fragile and costly to replace, while the arms lab is tough, cheaper and does not need to research it's upgrades a second time. Even the observatory, the weakest marine building, is considerably stronger and easier to replace.
If the underlying structure of the game doesn't change, the lerk and especially the fade need to be made more capable of helping their team, especially in the late game.
TLDR; Lerk and Fade are good at certain things, but those things don't help you win games in NS2. This is why skulk, gorge, onos is the most effective play. Still, it's a very good game regardless, and pretty easily the best FPS I've played in years.
Comments
Thumbs up.
Alien structres ought to be a lot tougher, or regen a lot faster.
So the fade and skulk are good at killing marines...yet they are poor base defenders. A base has a hive in it, which heals players. So, if a fade or lerk is good at killing players outside of the hive...well you see my problem with your logic? The only thing I can think of is that you meant Fade and Lerk are bad at killing <i>multiple</i> Marines. Fade, you might have a point if you only have one, but Lerk? If your commander researched Spores, there's really no reason you shouldn't be leading the charge with a few skulks behind you while dropping Spores like a drunken pelican. If they routinely kill you, I'm afraid you're being out played.
It's great at defense, and offense, and does well versus structures at range, which is something most other alien units are unable to do. Is bile bomb more effective? Sure! Is a gorge less than ideal in a lot of situations? Of course! Also, saying that killing wandering marines is useless is hardly true. A dead wandering marine is a saved res node, or an upgrade you don't need to buy again, or a section of the map that doesn't die because of a severed cyst chain. And weapon pickup negating wandering Marines? I don't think so, not unless the Marine is pretty pro or you killed him right next to his base.
Try attacking from the rear, or the side, or from any direction except full-frontal. At the very least, a lerk or a fade is a great distraction for your skulks. Base defense for aliens isn't like a marine turtle. You gotta leave the hive, and try and flank the enemy for your best shot at getting them out of there. Fades can try to toe-to-toe with a group of LMG marines for a few seconds, but if the marines have an armory it's your teams fault for letting them have one just outside your hive. If it's med spam, it can be overcome with enough spores and players nipping at their heels.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->or a Fade to a single gun exo....<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, because it's totally fair that a 10 P.Res alien life form can solo multiple Exo's with good placement. I'm talking about the Gorge. It is the bane of Exo's that don't have dedicated healers, and costs virtually <i>nothing</i>. A fade versus an exo? Way less than ideal, and would only be attempted by a damn good fade or a desperate one. It would have been wiser for someone else to Gorge and take on the Exo while the fade tries to wack his weld buddy.
What? Lerk and Fade are amazing base defenders! Two fades together? Incredibly deadly.
I also disagree with everyone saying Carapace is a necessity on Fades and Lerks... it really isn't. Focus less on hitting and more on evading. You have 3 movement skills to make yourself a really hard target to track. IF they happen to land a meaty shotgun blast to you, back off, regen and re-enter 10 seconds later.
I haven't tested fade in a competitive environment but I've faded enough against high calibre players to know the fade playstyle works and isn't just pub randoms missing shots.
The main problem with fade is the time it enters the game and the higher entering skill level required to play at the same effectiveness as other classes.
I also disagree with everyone saying Carapace is a necessity on Fades and Lerks... it really isn't. Focus less on hitting and more on evading. You have 3 movement skills to make yourself a really hard target to track. IF they happen to land a meaty shotgun blast to you, back off, regen and re-enter 10 seconds later.
I haven't tested fade in a competitive environment but I've faded enough against high calibre players to know the fade playstyle works and isn't just pub randoms missing shots.
The main problem with fade is the time it enters the game and the higher entering skill level required to play at the same effectiveness as other classes.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You already have 3 seconds tops vs 2+ marines to do anything as a fade or a lerk. If you focus more on evading, you will do exactly zero damage before you lose all of your armor and have to leave.
To add basics; Skulk remains the best anti-exo weapon, especially during hive defense if shifts are maintaining a supply of eggs. Gorges gain valuable support roles via the bile bomb for sieging. Onos is the OP king of the endgame. The best I can say for the Fade is that it's scary - it has a morale impact. The Lerk is merely irritating for a well-organised marine team. Both are very fun to play but simply not useful.
But what do I see? Lerks and Fades who think they are Rambo. Fades that hit on a power node while the gorge behind them dies to a single marine. It is really sad. This marine-killer-classes could work so devastating well, with a little bit of teamplay. But most people can't realize that. At least this is my experience from my last games.
We need way more HP for the Fade and more offensive/damage dealing abilities or simply more base attack/attack speed
Lerk's can deny areas with spores preventing Marine expansion
Umbra + Enzyme + Fade(s) is massively disturbing, but almost never seen as it requires 3 hives
I think the synergy is there to make those two lifeforms good its just a matter of changing the game up so that these combos come into the game before an onos gets dropped