<!--quoteo(post=2022615:date=Nov 13 2012, 05:06 PM:name=IeptBarakat)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (IeptBarakat @ Nov 13 2012, 05:06 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2022615"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The only real defensive use of Vortex I can think of is to try to stop gl spam, if vortex affects grenades.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It does, but it's almost always more effective to just kill the guy with the grenade launcher. It's a third-hive ability that would only be useful when you only have two hives. That's more-or-less the issue. A support ability on a primarily assault class doesn't make any sense. It literally negates the strength's of a Fade, since you can't hit people that are in a Vortex. The use of it to take one guy out of battle and kill the other doesn't hold water either, considering the insanely high cost of Vortex. It would make <i>more</i> sense to have Vortex phase both the Fade <i>and</i> the target as many others have suggested. It would allow Fades to single out people to kill, even in a base. Four seconds of private time is just enough time to kill a guy and get out, even with Armor 3. You would need to do it <i>perfectly</i>, however, so I think it would remain relatively balanced when compared to Umbra or Stomp third-hive abilities.
Just wanted to throw in my 2 cents, but i believe that focus should NOT come back (personal opinion, i find it a bland upgrade)
That being said, i also believe that Fades need a more efficient way to kill marines
I made a proposal in another topic that would allow Fades (and skulks) to deal more damage when using shadowstep or blink ( or leap). The concept being, Blink in, swipe for 125% damage (about 100 i think) and blink out. Or blink in, shadowstep at a marine and swipe at the end and deal 150% damage (about 120; think charge 'n targe from TF2).
This would let fades 1 shot unarmored marines and deal increased damage at the cost of extra energy (and better aim) per attack.
Read the full thread here: <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=123940" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...howtopic=123940</a>
P.S. they could also just bring back the stab attack that would 1 shot all but a full hp/armor a3 marine. Trade off was that you could only use shadow step to move while the attack was charging, which is predictable.
There are 2 problems reported with the fade: - the fade is surprisingly squishy. - the fade is simply not worth 50 res.
IMHO the second problem is more important - the fade costs 2/3 of an onos. The onos is the alien lifeform which decides most matches - so for 2/3 that cost, you'd be expecting something earthshattering... and, basically, the fade isn't.
Personally, I would remove the ability to purchase an onos with p-res, and see how the fade is received when more people actually bother to use it.
<!--quoteo(post=2022688:date=Nov 13 2012, 06:08 PM:name=dumbo11)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (dumbo11 @ Nov 13 2012, 06:08 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2022688"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->There are 2 problems reported with the fade: - the fade is surprisingly squishy. - the fade is simply not worth 50 res.
IMHO the second problem is more important - the fade costs 2/3 of an onos. The onos is the alien lifeform which decides most matches - so for 2/3 that cost, you'd be expecting something earthshattering... and, basically, the fade isn't.
Personally, I would remove the ability to purchase an onos with p-res, and see how the fade is received when more people actually bother to use it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
On your two first points there, yes that's why.
As to the last thing, no, lets not force people to play a unit with no application late game and limit the late game unit to T.Res. Not unless you'd like to see Dual-Exo suffer the same fate. (Which maybe it should, since new players are disasters in Dual-Exo's...)
I'm guessing one reason why the fade feels so squishy now is that back in beta it felt much more powerful when people had poor performance.
Bringing fade up to NS1 levels of health would be a 58,3% buff - in gameplay terms about 1,5 more shotgun hits. (without cara)
I don't think that can be done just like that because of the concept of 'lifeform explosions' - if the whole team goes fade it's immediately a tactic that cannot be beaten.
<!--quoteo(post=2022678:date=Nov 13 2012, 11:57 PM:name=SixtyWattMan)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SixtyWattMan @ Nov 13 2012, 11:57 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2022678"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The Fade's problem isn't damage output, it's his pathetic health pool.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
i might take your word for it if you could provide a video of you playing marine and killing fades with ease (preferably where the fade players aren't total derpers).
it's easy to say 'fade need hp buff', but i think they'd be almost impossible to kill with a hp buff - and probably overlap with the role of onos as well in being a solo steamroller.
i still believe that fade would be fine if you could attack after blink, without that "hey dude pull the trigger now" delay before you're allowed to attack. that would make the fade more powerful in that you can attack and then evade without a pause, more skillful in that it would reward you for perfectly executing/timing your blink and more fun due to the more viable blink/shadowstep/doublejump mobility crazyness element as well...
an increase in hp is a boring dumb 'fix' which should be avoided until there's no other option. you'd still have slow swipe, therefore you'd still take shotgun in the eye and you'd still have problems if you linger too long - the only benefit would be to derpy players who don't use the dodge anyway.
fades need more hp, you watch them blink in and kill them extremely fast, almost instantly with 2 players, that's retarded for 50 res, their damage also sucks, their blink speed also sucks, the attack out of blink ALSO sucks
basically, the fade sucks.
needs: hp/armor buff, 300/100 300/200 with cara sounds perfect for a 50 res unit, or something like 300/75 300/150 + all those fixes
I'm a bad fade, but I do know that they can be extremely potent. The only real problem that the fade has is the skill requirement needed to use them right. If you can't use them right, you're going to die and usually pretty quickly after hatching, completely wasting that 50 res. This is where a tutorial mode reinforced with bot play would come in handy, it would give players the chance to play around with the fade in pseudo-realistic combat situations in order to get used to them. It's really difficult to get good with a fade because of their cost and relative squishiness in live games unless you spend a lot of time playing and going fade.
Every other lifeform is easy to practice with because they play a lot like the skulk in terms of movement. The lerk is a flying skulk, the onos is a fat skulk that can't climb walls. The gorge is just a gorge and we all love him. But the fade requires you to use 3 different movement based abilities in the proper way to allow you to have maximum movement, control and deadliness and that's a pretty tall order when every other lifeform only uses 1-2 movement based abilities.
All that being said, fades are absolutely devastating in the correct hands. They don't really need any buffs, although I wouldn't mind seeing their res cost decrease a bit. Perhaps brought down to 45?.. 40 just seems too low. Make it a bit less of a painful hit when you do get 2 shot by a shotgunner and allow them to enter the play field a bit earlier.
As it stands, marines are usually busting out shotguns before aliens can even go fade through the course of a normal game. Shotguns should be the answer to fades, not the deterrent that they are now, meaning that the alien team should have the chance to bring out fades at roughly the same time that shotguns come into play, rather than shortly after. Obviously, this doesn't matter for when shotguns are researched early. I know that when I see shotgun kills popping up on the feed and I'm just about to hit 50 res, I just say screw it and keep saving res for onos. There's no point for me to go fade when I'm not that good with it and the counter to the fade is already in play on the field. That's just me though.
Not going to say the game is unplayable, but I have pretty much stopped playing due to the imbalances right now. Fades are unbelievably weak and need some serious tweaking.
I think it's safe to say we all miss the ns1 fade. Fun as hell. I really miss acid bomb. It was the ultimate harass. Current fade feels like a glorified skulk. There will come a point in the game where you can't really engage marines at all, so you're reduced to picking off single marines and resources nodes. Against decently coordinated marines with good aim, you will be at a massive disadvantage.
<!--quoteo(post=2022708:date=Nov 13 2012, 08:38 PM:name=tarquinbb)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (tarquinbb @ Nov 13 2012, 08:38 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2022708"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->i might take your word for it if you could provide a video of you playing marine and killing fades with ease (preferably where the fade players aren't total derpers).
it's easy to say 'fade need hp buff', but i think they'd be almost impossible to kill with a hp buff - and probably overlap with the role of onos as well in being a solo steamroller.
i still believe that fade would be fine if you could attack after blink, without that "hey dude pull the trigger now" delay before you're allowed to attack. that would make the fade more powerful in that you can attack and then evade without a pause, more skillful in that it would reward you for perfectly executing/timing your blink and more fun due to the more viable blink/shadowstep/doublejump mobility crazyness element as well...
an increase in hp is a boring dumb 'fix' which should be avoided until there's no other option. you'd still have slow swipe, therefore you'd still take shotgun in the eye and you'd still have problems if you linger too long - the only benefit would be to derpy players who don't use the dodge anyway.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I say what I say because I'm pretty good at Fade considering how gimped it is, and I'm not afraid of Fades when playing as Marine, AT ALL. I would rather the aliens be Fades, because I know that when it comes down to it they will spend more time healing at the hive than killing Marines. If you can pump even half of an LMG mag into a Fade, they HAVE to go get healed. Fades are a MASSIVE target. With Carapace, they have the same effective health as a Gorge with Carapace... hahahahahahahahahahaha
Just feels like anything a fade can do a lerk can do better. You also have a ranged attack and cost just over half the resources. If fade doesn't get a buff by the time the fast onos gets a nerf, aliens are going to have a large void in their midgame.
Fades feel good. Make them come out a tad earlier (40 - 45 res cost?) and perhaps lower the cost of blink upgrade to something not ridiculously high and I think you would see far less onos rushes.
The main problem lies in the fact he really requires a high entry skill level to play anywhere close to the effectiveness of other lifeforms. But once you reach a certain level, your HP will be largely dependent on your remaining energy.
As for the no swipey after blink, it seems inconsistent. I'm unsure if it's FPS related or something else. I can often instantly swipe after a blink.
All this talk about nerfing shotguns I find ridiculous. Hitting a skulk point blank with an sg doesn't even do a thing anymore. If anything they're underpowered or too expensive.
<!--quoteo(post=2022936:date=Nov 13 2012, 11:45 PM:name=xposed-)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (xposed- @ Nov 13 2012, 11:45 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2022936"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->All this talk about nerfing shotguns I find ridiculous. Hitting a skulk point blank with an sg doesn't even do a thing anymore. If anything they're underpowered or too expensive.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You mean one-shotting a Skulk is underpowered? Please, tell me more.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
<!--quoteo(post=2022443:date=Nov 13 2012, 12:27 PM:name=GORGEous)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GORGEous @ Nov 13 2012, 12:27 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2022443"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Not this increase-the-spread-crap again, please.
Good LMGs are just as dangerous as good shotguns, it's just easier to use shotguns. Nerfing shotguns won't fix the problem because as people get better the LMG will be just as bad. Let's fix the fade instead of "fixing" shotguns and then LMGs.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> "its just easier to use shotguns" being the take away point there. And i disagree with what you say, good LMGs are not just as dangerous, you dont down a 50 pres lifeform in 2 seconds with an LMG.
I didn't say its the only thing needed.. but i bet it would go a long way for both the fade and the lerk which both have to play this "hit and run" game with low health. Just merely increasing the health enough to negate the need for such a change would make either class OP in both pubs and comp - so both are needed
<!--quoteo(post=2022511:date=Nov 13 2012, 01:38 PM:name=Mr.Greedy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mr.Greedy @ Nov 13 2012, 01:38 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2022511"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If I remember correctly then fades in NS1 had 300/150 HP/Armor . Incl. carapace 300/250. In NS2 its only 250/50 and 250/100. Thats a huge nerf. I think UWE have ###### the fade, in beta ,because marines wasent able to hit anything in reason of big performance-issues and hit-registration. They should turn it back now a littel bit.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> You cant copy NS1's health stats.. it doesn't translate well. Example: It worked great for 6v6 with 1 to 2 fades at most on a team, due to the resource model, but NS2's res model allows for an entire team to have that as an option. So it must be balanced to work with this in mind. I.e. not focusing on simply increasing health and armor.
<!--quoteo(post=2022879:date=Nov 14 2012, 06:13 AM:name=Tom_Hanks13)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom_Hanks13 @ Nov 14 2012, 06:13 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2022879"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Not going to say the game is unplayable, but I have pretty much stopped playing due to the imbalances right now. Fades are unbelievably weak and need some serious tweaking.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
the imbalance really makes this game no fun after two weeks of release.
player begin to understand or have already understood the imbalance of NS 2 and using it to their advantage or stop to play the game at all because of that
Comments
It does, but it's almost always more effective to just kill the guy with the grenade launcher. It's a third-hive ability that would only be useful when you only have two hives. That's more-or-less the issue. A support ability on a primarily assault class doesn't make any sense. It literally negates the strength's of a Fade, since you can't hit people that are in a Vortex. The use of it to take one guy out of battle and kill the other doesn't hold water either, considering the insanely high cost of Vortex. It would make <i>more</i> sense to have Vortex phase both the Fade <i>and</i> the target as many others have suggested. It would allow Fades to single out people to kill, even in a base. Four seconds of private time is just enough time to kill a guy and get out, even with Armor 3. You would need to do it <i>perfectly</i>, however, so I think it would remain relatively balanced when compared to Umbra or Stomp third-hive abilities.
That being said, i also believe that Fades need a more efficient way to kill marines
I made a proposal in another topic that would allow Fades (and skulks) to deal more damage when using shadowstep or blink ( or leap). The concept being, Blink in, swipe for 125% damage (about 100 i think) and blink out. Or blink in, shadowstep at a marine and swipe at the end and deal 150% damage (about 120; think charge 'n targe from TF2).
This would let fades 1 shot unarmored marines and deal increased damage at the cost of extra energy (and better aim) per attack.
Read the full thread here:
<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=123940" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...howtopic=123940</a>
P.S. they could also just bring back the stab attack that would 1 shot all but a full hp/armor a3 marine. Trade off was that you could only use shadow step to move while the attack was charging, which is predictable.
- the fade is surprisingly squishy.
- the fade is simply not worth 50 res.
IMHO the second problem is more important - the fade costs 2/3 of an onos. The onos is the alien lifeform which decides most matches - so for 2/3 that cost, you'd be expecting something earthshattering... and, basically, the fade isn't.
Personally, I would remove the ability to purchase an onos with p-res, and see how the fade is received when more people actually bother to use it.
- the fade is surprisingly squishy.
- the fade is simply not worth 50 res.
IMHO the second problem is more important - the fade costs 2/3 of an onos. The onos is the alien lifeform which decides most matches - so for 2/3 that cost, you'd be expecting something earthshattering... and, basically, the fade isn't.
Personally, I would remove the ability to purchase an onos with p-res, and see how the fade is received when more people actually bother to use it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
On your two first points there, yes that's why.
As to the last thing, no, lets not force people to play a unit with no application late game and limit the late game unit to T.Res. Not unless you'd like to see Dual-Exo suffer the same fate. (Which maybe it should, since new players are disasters in Dual-Exo's...)
Bringing fade up to NS1 levels of health would be a 58,3% buff - in gameplay terms about 1,5 more shotgun hits. (without cara)
I don't think that can be done just like that because of the concept of 'lifeform explosions' - if the whole team goes fade it's immediately a tactic that cannot be beaten.
Regardless a noticable buff in HP is needed.
i might take your word for it if you could provide a video of you playing marine and killing fades with ease (preferably where the fade players aren't total derpers).
it's easy to say 'fade need hp buff', but i think they'd be almost impossible to kill with a hp buff - and probably overlap with the role of onos as well in being a solo steamroller.
i still believe that fade would be fine if you could attack after blink, without that "hey dude pull the trigger now" delay before you're allowed to attack. that would make the fade more powerful in that you can attack and then evade without a pause, more skillful in that it would reward you for perfectly executing/timing your blink and more fun due to the more viable blink/shadowstep/doublejump mobility crazyness element as well...
an increase in hp is a boring dumb 'fix' which should be avoided until there's no other option. you'd still have slow swipe, therefore you'd still take shotgun in the eye and you'd still have problems if you linger too long - the only benefit would be to derpy players who don't use the dodge anyway.
basically, the fade sucks.
needs: hp/armor buff, 300/100 300/200 with cara sounds perfect for a 50 res unit, or something like 300/75 300/150 + all those fixes
single gun exo punch should do 50 more damage
Every other lifeform is easy to practice with because they play a lot like the skulk in terms of movement. The lerk is a flying skulk, the onos is a fat skulk that can't climb walls. The gorge is just a gorge and we all love him. But the fade requires you to use 3 different movement based abilities in the proper way to allow you to have maximum movement, control and deadliness and that's a pretty tall order when every other lifeform only uses 1-2 movement based abilities.
All that being said, fades are absolutely devastating in the correct hands. They don't really need any buffs, although I wouldn't mind seeing their res cost decrease a bit. Perhaps brought down to 45?.. 40 just seems too low. Make it a bit less of a painful hit when you do get 2 shot by a shotgunner and allow them to enter the play field a bit earlier.
As it stands, marines are usually busting out shotguns before aliens can even go fade through the course of a normal game. Shotguns should be the answer to fades, not the deterrent that they are now, meaning that the alien team should have the chance to bring out fades at roughly the same time that shotguns come into play, rather than shortly after. Obviously, this doesn't matter for when shotguns are researched early. I know that when I see shotgun kills popping up on the feed and I'm just about to hit 50 res, I just say screw it and keep saving res for onos. There's no point for me to go fade when I'm not that good with it and the counter to the fade is already in play on the field. That's just me though.
I need to play fade more, AFK NS2'ing.
Current fade feels like a glorified skulk. There will come a point in the game where you can't really engage marines at all, so you're reduced to picking off single marines and resources nodes. Against decently coordinated marines with good aim, you will be at a massive disadvantage.
it's easy to say 'fade need hp buff', but i think they'd be almost impossible to kill with a hp buff - and probably overlap with the role of onos as well in being a solo steamroller.
i still believe that fade would be fine if you could attack after blink, without that "hey dude pull the trigger now" delay before you're allowed to attack. that would make the fade more powerful in that you can attack and then evade without a pause, more skillful in that it would reward you for perfectly executing/timing your blink and more fun due to the more viable blink/shadowstep/doublejump mobility crazyness element as well...
an increase in hp is a boring dumb 'fix' which should be avoided until there's no other option. you'd still have slow swipe, therefore you'd still take shotgun in the eye and you'd still have problems if you linger too long - the only benefit would be to derpy players who don't use the dodge anyway.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I say what I say because I'm pretty good at Fade considering how gimped it is, and I'm not afraid of Fades when playing as Marine, AT ALL. I would rather the aliens be Fades, because I know that when it comes down to it they will spend more time healing at the hive than killing Marines. If you can pump even half of an LMG mag into a Fade, they HAVE to go get healed. Fades are a MASSIVE target. With Carapace, they have the same effective health as a Gorge with Carapace... hahahahahahahahahahaha
The main problem lies in the fact he really requires a high entry skill level to play anywhere close to the effectiveness of other lifeforms. But once you reach a certain level, your HP will be largely dependent on your remaining energy.
As for the no swipey after blink, it seems inconsistent. I'm unsure if it's FPS related or something else. I can often instantly swipe after a blink.
You mean one-shotting a Skulk is underpowered? Please, tell me more.
Good LMGs are just as dangerous as good shotguns, it's just easier to use shotguns. Nerfing shotguns won't fix the problem because as people get better the LMG will be just as bad. Let's fix the fade instead of "fixing" shotguns and then LMGs.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
"its just easier to use shotguns" being the take away point there.
And i disagree with what you say, good LMGs are not just as dangerous, you dont down a 50 pres lifeform in 2 seconds with an LMG.
I didn't say its the only thing needed.. but i bet it would go a long way for both the fade and the lerk which both have to play this "hit and run" game with low health.
Just merely increasing the health enough to negate the need for such a change would make either class OP in both pubs and comp - so both are needed
<!--quoteo(post=2022511:date=Nov 13 2012, 01:38 PM:name=Mr.Greedy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mr.Greedy @ Nov 13 2012, 01:38 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2022511"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If I remember correctly then fades in NS1 had 300/150 HP/Armor . Incl. carapace 300/250. In NS2 its only 250/50 and 250/100. Thats a huge nerf. I think UWE have ###### the fade, in beta ,because marines wasent able to hit anything in reason of big performance-issues and hit-registration. They should turn it back now a littel bit.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You cant copy NS1's health stats.. it doesn't translate well.
Example: It worked great for 6v6 with 1 to 2 fades at most on a team, due to the resource model, but NS2's res model allows for an entire team to have that as an option. So it must be balanced to work with this in mind. I.e. not focusing on simply increasing health and armor.
the imbalance really makes this game no fun after two weeks of release.
player begin to understand or have already understood the imbalance of NS 2 and using it to their advantage or stop to play the game at all because of that