And why would anyone pay for skins when you can have them for free through the workshop?
In any case, no game is going to be played for eternity, everything dies sooner or later. I hope NS2 will keep selling for as long as possible, so UWE can keep improving it. And I guess people will still play NS2 for quite a while even after UWE stops updating it. But I don't want to see stuff like cash shops being implemented just to prolong a death struggle.
Call me oldfashioned, but I think the mindset that comes with it sucks the soul out of a game. Just like TF2 went downhill fast when they decided to add crafting/loot drops/hats, and then switched to f2p with a cash shop.
<!--quoteo(post=2019463:date=Nov 11 2012, 11:32 AM:name=Neoken)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Neoken @ Nov 11 2012, 11:32 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2019463"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Call me oldfashioned, but I think the mindset that comes with it sucks the soul out of a game. Just like TF2 went downhill fast when they decided to add crafting/loot drops/hats, and then switched to f2p with a cash shop.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In what way? Most of the items are weaker than the originals and the hats are only cosmetic. It doesn't change the gameplay experience for someone who doesn't want to participate in all the extra stuff so how is it worse now than before? I think a lot of early players were simply becoming bored with the game at around the time it was approaching F2P (when it was already 3.5 years old).
It just changes the feel of the game, and the community it attracts. Somebody who keeps playing because he enjoys the game for what it is tends to be different than someone who keeps playing because he wants to parade around in that shiny new armor he bought.
<!--quoteo(post=2008574:date=Nov 3 2012, 04:06 PM:name=Safewood)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Safewood @ Nov 3 2012, 04:06 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2008574"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><b>Commander add-ons:</b> There won't be skins for buildings<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Why not? This is probably one of the better cosmetic things to add. Everyone can see it Including yourself. Unlike player skins in a first person game, whats the point? I think it would be quite neat to have different skinned buildings if the commander bought a cosmetic for them. It would actually be pretty cool if when the guys with black armor dropped a building it had a black armor style skin.
<!--quoteo(post=2008667:date=Nov 3 2012, 05:15 PM:name=Fat_Man_Little_Coat)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Fat_Man_Little_Coat @ Nov 3 2012, 05:15 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2008667"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Single player storymode dlv. 8 scripted missions, two rendered movies 12.99.
Doesnt affect gameplay, enhances the universe and appeals to the community. No skins please, this is not TF2.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is probably the most solid idea I've heard when it comes to paid DLC. I would love to know a little more of the backstory of NS through a story mode. and would be willing to pay around $25 bucks for it.
<b>@ Swiftspear:</b> Such business model doesn't need to be made today. I'm just talking about future business model that might keep the NS2 developers continuing to support this game.
<b>@ RMJ:</b> That's a great addition, however, not a reliable income.
<b>@ Neoken:</b> Because in Workshop it's only you who sees the models.
<i>> "It just changes the feel of the game, and the community it attracts."</i>
Not if you keep the same artstyle and theme. This is a completely loosely assumption of you, which you neither can prove nor use as an argument.
<!--quoteo(post=2019687:date=Nov 11 2012, 10:15 AM:name=Safewood)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Safewood @ Nov 11 2012, 10:15 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2019687"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Because in Workshop it's only you who sees the models.
<i>> "It just changes the feel of the game, and the community it attracts."</i>
Not if you keep the same artstyle and theme. This is a completely loosely assumption of you, which you neither can prove nor use as an argument.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I was not talking about artstyle or theme, I was talking about the change in community/mindset you might see when you implement such a cash shop. The fact that some people wouldn't want a skin because they're the only ones to see it, and would rather spend money so they can show off their appearance illustrates the point I'm trying to make.
I think the way to go, if they do go this way, would be in-theme skins. Take a look at the digital art book, lots of different versions of guns, lifeforms, buildings, etc. Build those up to be full quality models and let people buy them for a couple dollars. When you play marine comm, it uses your building variations. When you're a fade, everyone can see you as Fade #3 instead of the basic Fade.
Now of course people can use userside mods to make things look different for them, but only purchased things are visible to all. LoL uses the same model, everyone is perfectly capable of using mods to make their character look different to themselves, but only official purchases let you use skins that all players can see.
<b>@ Neoken:</b> No, far from. You buy clothes, don't you? It's okay to be consumed by materialism in the real life, but god forbid if it comes in the virtual world. Which, let me repeat it once again, does not affect your gameplay whatsoever. If the NS2 developers don't have a reliable and sustainable income, which mods are far from, then the game will officially be "dead" in two, at most, three years. By officially dead, I mean the developers has left the building.
Buyable cosmetics and microtransactions put such a sick feeling my stomach. If you've persuaded a friend to buy the game who otherwise wouldn't have bought it, I think that's much more valuable.
Also, I might be alone here, but I'm much more interested in just letting the team get to work on a new project rather than tying them down with eternal support on a game that's already great. Obviously, performance and compatibility issues should be fixed, but boy am I curious to see what comes next out of that company.
<!--quoteo(post=2019779:date=Nov 11 2012, 11:41 AM:name=Safewood)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Safewood @ Nov 11 2012, 11:41 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2019779"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><b>@ Neoken:</b> No, far from. You buy clothes, don't you? It's okay to be consumed by materialism in the real life, but god forbid if it comes in the virtual world. Which, let me repeat it once again, does not affect your gameplay whatsoever. If the NS2 developers don't have a reliable and sustainable income, which mods are far from, then the game will officially be "dead" in two, at most, three years. By officially dead, I mean the developers has left the building.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The reference to modern day individualism only strengthens my argument. I didn't say it's okay to be consumed by materialism, if anything it should be avoided if you want to keep a strong community. So once again, in a game relying so hard on teamwork, the community IS the gameplay. The kind of players this game attracts does affect my gameplay. And I'd rather play with fellas who simply enjoy the game, than with fellas who only stick around to show off their newly bought outfits.
Of course a cash shop will not utterly destroy this game's community, but denying it's influence would be naive.
<!--quoteo(post=2019948:date=Nov 11 2012, 11:02 AM:name=Neoken)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Neoken @ Nov 11 2012, 11:02 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2019948"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The reference to modern day individualism only strengthens my argument. I didn't say it's okay to be consumed by materialism, if anything it should be avoided if you want to keep a strong community. So once again, in a game relying so hard on teamwork, the community IS the gameplay. The kind of players this game attracts does affect my gameplay. And I'd rather play with fellas who simply enjoy the game, than with fellas who only stick around to show off their newly bought outfits.
Of course a cash shop will not utterly destroy this game's community, but denying it's influence would be naive.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> So... cosmetics bad? Killing floor does it. No one is bothered. If it, in anyway, motivates the developer to release updates, I see why not. Not everyone can give a free ride 'till the end of time like Valve can, for example, because they own the Steam store. So why not let UWE make easy harmless money like other (innocent) companies do?
<!--quoteo(post=2019951:date=Nov 11 2012, 02:05 PM:name=Safewood)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Safewood @ Nov 11 2012, 02:05 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2019951"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><b>@ Neoken:</b> That's your wild assumption and belief, and I'm not going to bother discussing something you can't factually back up.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's not a "wild assumption", just logics backed up with real life observations, extrapolated to the game universe. The more you focus on the individual, the more the community will suffer.
paid cosmetics are a great way to go. It rewards fans willing to lay down a couple of bucks for a skin-pack so they can look cool, and it doesn't involve any kind of ingame currency or unlock goals so doesn't affect the playing-for-fun approach with optional grind.
IeptBarakatThe most difficult name to speak ingame.Join Date: 2009-07-10Member: 68107Members, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow
<!--quoteo(post=2019995:date=Nov 11 2012, 03:22 PM:name=NolSinkler)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NolSinkler @ Nov 11 2012, 03:22 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2019995"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Then buy your friend a copy of the game!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
OP doesn't have any because he lost them all in the other cash-shop games where he bragged about his $100 gold plated rifle.
<!--quoteo(post=2019952:date=Nov 11 2012, 08:07 PM:name=Fappuchino)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Fappuchino @ Nov 11 2012, 08:07 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2019952"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So... cosmetics bad? Killing floor does it. No one is bothered. If it, in anyway, motivates the developer to release updates, I see why not. Not everyone can give a free ride 'till the end of time like Valve can, for example, because they own the Steam store. So why not let UWE make easy harmless money like other (innocent) companies do?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Killing floor does not oppose two teams, there is only one team. You don't have DLC skins that affect the appearance of the zombies for your teammates, do you?
I hate DLCs (except in Killing Floor because it changes really nothing), cosmetics are more OK and I can understand the use of them, especially for indie devs, but those DLC shouldn't change the artstyle of NS2, I don't want to have golden AK47 and fluo hats. At least there should be an option to be able to play with Vanilla graphics.
<!--quoteo(post=2020991:date=Nov 12 2012, 07:49 PM:name=Regnareb)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Regnareb @ Nov 12 2012, 07:49 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2020991"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Killing floor does not oppose two teams, there is only one team. You don't have DLC skins that affect the appearance of the zombies for your teammates, do you?
I hate DLCs (except in Killing Floor because it changes really nothing), cosmetics are more OK and I can understand the use of them, especially for indie devs, but those DLC shouldn't change the artstyle of NS2, I don't want to have golden AK47 and fluo hats. At least there should be an option to be able to play with Vanilla graphics.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The devs did say in a Q&A that if they have cosmetic stuff, they'll be in the same art style and theme with the default NS2 stuff and not go crazy with TF2 hats.
How can you make income from player who already bought the game ? - DLC, i'm not against but most of the time it's useless, without any real content, and from a moddable game, it will not be succesfull - Hat (TF2 style) as long as the game keep his personality I wouldn't mind see that coming, but I woulnd't buy any of these - Months subscription, NEVER PLEASE !!!!! - Ingame AD: in my opinion it's an underrated income ! I don't talk about usual ad, like in TV, when you have to stop viewing something, but smarter advertisement. In france we talk about "Placement de produit" (=Product placing). We are in a Cosumer society so why in any game you don't see any ad, especially in futuristic game ? As long as it keep making sense, and don't bother with lot of noise and sh*t. I remember of Burnout Paradise, with the Gillette truck (and with some research even Obama has done it on Burnout).
But I understand that some guys don't want it, I Just prefer to see in-game SMART ad than DLC, cosmetic,...
^ +1 In-game ad, but designed with an NS2 related funny reference, so it's not annoying, but instead funny and contributes to the game.
Q: So we released our game, and will keep updating it for as long as we can. How do we proceed to fund further development? A1: Sell more copies, by making the game popular and better. A2: Sell items like plushies, more art and wallpapers, clothes like t-shirts, misc items. A3: Make the engine popular and better and start licensing it. A4: Keep A LOT of focus on modding support, the more fun mods, gamemodes, community etc the more popular the game will be, generating sales. A5: Work on new engine technology, improved and extended game experience, release a sequel after 2-5 years.
I wouldn't say selling a lot of different in-game cosmetic items for NS2 would be effective in the long run. But perhaps I'm wrong... After all, for TF2 it was a HUGE success, even though I stopped playing it because it attracted/created another community which to me wasn't the awesome community of TFC/original TF2.
cosmetic items arnt valuable in a game where custom skins are prevalent... I remember NS1 I switched to spec ops model and never went back.... if people are using skins, then they wont see my sweet black armor...
Killing Floor's cosmetic skins are the absolute limit of acceptability. Remember, Killing Floor has also succeeded on sales, not just skins. For every major FREE expansion in Killing Floor, Tripwire slapped on a discount on Steam, thus driving sales to a fever pitch every few months. Their income from skins is merely a steady bonus from what I can see. Valve has mentioned statistics regarding the sale of games going on sale, and the results are overwhemingly positive. From what I recall, anytime a sale was applied to a game, the number of purchases increased dramatically and <i>continued even when the sale was over!</i>
I encourage UWE to attempt this model with the Steam distribution: major expansion releases centered around the mythic Steam Sales. Sure, cosmetic skins will be okay as a side benefit as well. Killing Floor is my personal favorite success story- it was basically a nothing game that grew into a giant. I am confident that Natural Selection 2 is inherently better than Killing Floor was at launch, and combined with updates and word of mouth will ensure Natural Selection 2's popularity for years to come.
(Although, I must say that I am disappointed in Tripwire's recent decision to release a DLC weapons pack. Even though the DLC weapons pack's revenue goes directly to the modders that made the weapons pack, I feel that it's a huge sell-out and breaks the integrity of the game AND the modding culture.)
<!--quoteo(post=2008732:date=Nov 3 2012, 04:03 PM:name=Darkster)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Darkster @ Nov 3 2012, 04:03 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2008732"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->UWE is planning on doing updates which will boost sales (aka the <a href="http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2009/02/19/gabe-newell-valve-are-very-rich-its-awesome/" target="_blank">TF2 model before it went F2P</a> - second bullet). I don't believe it is very necessary for UWE to look for any other method of acquiring funding until that model stops working for them.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=2021052:date=Nov 12 2012, 07:41 PM:name=Vitdom)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Vitdom @ Nov 12 2012, 07:41 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2021052"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->^ +1 In-game ad, but designed with an NS2 related funny reference, so it's not annoying, but instead funny and contributes to the game.
Q: So we released our game, and will keep updating it for as long as we can. How do we proceed to fund further development? A1: Sell more copies, by making the game popular and better. A2: Sell items like plushies, more art and wallpapers, clothes like t-shirts, misc items. A3: Make the engine popular and better and start licensing it. A4: Keep A LOT of focus on modding support, the more fun mods, gamemodes, community etc the more popular the game will be, generating sales. A5: Work on new engine technology, improved and extended game experience, release a sequel after 2-5 years.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Don't forget plushies ! I want my own gorge ! Moreover working on ad need time and money so I don't think it'll be really worked on fun, we need a bigger in-game ad market for that
<!--quoteo(post=2019952:date=Nov 11 2012, 08:07 PM:name=Fappuchino)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Fappuchino @ Nov 11 2012, 08:07 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2019952"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So... cosmetics bad? Killing floor does it. No one is bothered.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
True on both counts! (I can't be bothered by Killing Floor)
<!--quoteo(post=2019128:date=Nov 10 2012, 09:48 PM:name=Swiftspear)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Swiftspear @ Nov 10 2012, 09:48 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2019128"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I find it a little weird we're even talking about this right now when the NS2 team made in the area of a million dollars in the first week after launch and NS2 is still the 5th top selling game on steam. I don't think we need to be terribly concerned about NS2 failing at this point. Despite the temper tantrums of a few exceptionally vocal "fans" of NS, it's pretty clear that many new people are picking up NS, liking the indie community, and liking the game.
These forums are the most hostile place I've seen towards NS2 so far. Discussions in reddit, team liquid, elsewhere, have largely been very positive with the occasional dissenting whisper.
For example, on reddit, temphage and psymple would have negative hundreds of karma :P<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
A million dollars is not a lot of money... there are currently 8 people employed at UWE. Let's assume there are no other expenses (rent, legal, contractors) and they are paid 60k a year (which would be a starting wage for a programmer...), their salaries will be 320k a year. That funds them for 3 years or more likely, allows them to break even with just developing the game.
IeptBarakatThe most difficult name to speak ingame.Join Date: 2009-07-10Member: 68107Members, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow
edited November 2012
<!--quoteo(post=2021558:date=Nov 12 2012, 09:51 PM:name=Safewood)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Safewood @ Nov 12 2012, 09:51 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2021558"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><b>@ IeptBarakat:</b> Look who's come back empty of arguments, hence throws childish personal attacks instead.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<i>"That's your wild assumption and belief, and I'm not going to bother discussing something you can't factually back up."</i>
This is one of those threads people create that is less of a discussion and more of a thread that won't be resolved until the op gets his way, as shown by the length of the thread and the general response by the community and constant dismissal by the thread creator.
There is already a similar thread to this which has gotten a reply by the pr guy and game director, here is a link on their opinions on the matter.
<!--quoteo(post=2021424:date=Nov 12 2012, 07:48 PM:name=Strayan (NS2HD))--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Strayan (NS2HD) @ Nov 12 2012, 07:48 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2021424"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->A new in-game store, using micro-transactions to replace PRes and TRes. Want to get that second hive a little faster? Get that Onos a little bit earlier? Use Flamethrowers at the 1min mark? Just pay a bit more. Everyone can get everything at the normal times for free (free-to-play) but those willing to open their wallets can get everything faster. Angry that you got killed by a blinking fade at the 30 second mark? Stop being such a whining, stingy ######.
Also, make NS2 a free-to-play-browser-online-midcore-microtransaction-facebook-social game, to maximise user-acquisition and revenue-extraction from the concurrent player-base. It's all the rage these days, get with it.
But seriously, for now NS2 and UWE are ok :). The plan is to continue to add free content to the game with big and meaningful updates, interspersed with bug-fix/balance patches such as build 229. Games tend to settle into a long-tail of steady sales on Steam. So by providing awesome content to everyone who owns the game, and actively supporting it, we hope to maximise the size and length of that long tail.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=2021484:date=Nov 12 2012, 08:48 PM:name=Flayra)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Flayra @ Nov 12 2012, 08:48 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2021484"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yes, what Hugh said.
Sales are rockin'. We're very happy! No need for us to work on side projects to pay the bills. We'll just focus on making NS2 better and better.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So this should be a sufficient answer to the original post, if you feel that isn't enough for you, you can always contact them on twitter.
<b>@ IeptBarakat:</b> If you want to me to bow down for every argument given, then you're solely mistaken. There's quite a few arguments here, which I agree with is a better start in the beginning. However, after some time has gone and the sales goes down, they can change the business model as they see fit. Which is nothing drastic as affecting gameplay for micro-transactions. So please, stop trying so hard, will you? Thanks. :3
Comments
In any case, no game is going to be played for eternity, everything dies sooner or later. I hope NS2 will keep selling for as long as possible, so UWE can keep improving it. And I guess people will still play NS2 for quite a while even after UWE stops updating it. But I don't want to see stuff like cash shops being implemented just to prolong a death struggle.
Call me oldfashioned, but I think the mindset that comes with it sucks the soul out of a game. Just like TF2 went downhill fast when they decided to add crafting/loot drops/hats, and then switched to f2p with a cash shop.
In what way? Most of the items are weaker than the originals and the hats are only cosmetic. It doesn't change the gameplay experience for someone who doesn't want to participate in all the extra stuff so how is it worse now than before? I think a lot of early players were simply becoming bored with the game at around the time it was approaching F2P (when it was already 3.5 years old).
There won't be skins for buildings<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Why not? This is probably one of the better cosmetic things to add. Everyone can see it Including yourself. Unlike player skins in a first person game, whats the point? I think it would be quite neat to have different skinned buildings if the commander bought a cosmetic for them. It would actually be pretty cool if when the guys with black armor dropped a building it had a black armor style skin.
<!--quoteo(post=2008667:date=Nov 3 2012, 05:15 PM:name=Fat_Man_Little_Coat)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Fat_Man_Little_Coat @ Nov 3 2012, 05:15 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2008667"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Single player storymode dlv. 8 scripted missions, two rendered movies 12.99.
Doesnt affect gameplay, enhances the universe and appeals to the community. No skins please, this is not TF2.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is probably the most solid idea I've heard when it comes to paid DLC. I would love to know a little more of the backstory of NS through a story mode. and would be willing to pay around $25 bucks for it.
Such business model doesn't need to be made today. I'm just talking about future business model that might keep the NS2 developers continuing to support this game.
<b>@ RMJ:</b>
That's a great addition, however, not a reliable income.
<b>@ Neoken:</b>
Because in Workshop it's only you who sees the models.
<i>> "It just changes the feel of the game, and the community it attracts."</i>
Not if you keep the same artstyle and theme. This is a completely loosely assumption of you, which you neither can prove nor use as an argument.
<b>@ Desther:</b>
Exactly. :)
<i>> "It just changes the feel of the game, and the community it attracts."</i>
Not if you keep the same artstyle and theme. This is a completely loosely assumption of you, which you neither can prove nor use as an argument.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I was not talking about artstyle or theme, I was talking about the change in community/mindset you might see when you implement such a cash shop. The fact that some people wouldn't want a skin because they're the only ones to see it, and would rather spend money so they can show off their appearance illustrates the point I'm trying to make.
But Please, please, give us an option to play as Vanilla.
Now of course people can use userside mods to make things look different for them, but only purchased things are visible to all. LoL uses the same model, everyone is perfectly capable of using mods to make their character look different to themselves, but only official purchases let you use skins that all players can see.
No, far from. You buy clothes, don't you? It's okay to be consumed by materialism in the real life, but god forbid if it comes in the virtual world. Which, let me repeat it once again, does not affect your gameplay whatsoever.
If the NS2 developers don't have a reliable and sustainable income, which mods are far from, then the game will officially be "dead" in two, at most, three years. By officially dead, I mean the developers has left the building.
<b>@ Typhon:</b>
Aye, ditto! :)
Also, I might be alone here, but I'm much more interested in just letting the team get to work on a new project rather than tying them down with eternal support on a game that's already great. Obviously, performance and compatibility issues should be fixed, but boy am I curious to see what comes next out of that company.
No, far from. You buy clothes, don't you? It's okay to be consumed by materialism in the real life, but god forbid if it comes in the virtual world. Which, let me repeat it once again, does not affect your gameplay whatsoever.
If the NS2 developers don't have a reliable and sustainable income, which mods are far from, then the game will officially be "dead" in two, at most, three years. By officially dead, I mean the developers has left the building.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The reference to modern day individualism only strengthens my argument. I didn't say it's okay to be consumed by materialism, if anything it should be avoided if you want to keep a strong community. So once again, in a game relying so hard on teamwork, the community IS the gameplay. The kind of players this game attracts does affect my gameplay. And I'd rather play with fellas who simply enjoy the game, than with fellas who only stick around to show off their newly bought outfits.
Of course a cash shop will not utterly destroy this game's community, but denying it's influence would be naive.
Every man to his taste, I guess.
<b>@ Neoken:</b>
That's your wild assumption and belief, and I'm not going to bother discussing something you can't factually back up.
Of course a cash shop will not utterly destroy this game's community, but denying it's influence would be naive.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So... cosmetics bad? Killing floor does it. No one is bothered. If it, in anyway, motivates the developer to release updates, I see why not. Not everyone can give a free ride 'till the end of time like Valve can, for example, because they own the Steam store. So why not let UWE make easy harmless money like other (innocent) companies do?
That's your wild assumption and belief, and I'm not going to bother discussing something you can't factually back up.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's not a "wild assumption", just logics backed up with real life observations, extrapolated to the game universe. The more you focus on the individual, the more the community will suffer.
Do you want the game to be more popular?
Then buy your friend a copy of the game!
Not a reliable nor sustainable income.
OP doesn't have any because he lost them all in the other cash-shop games where he bragged about his $100 gold plated rifle.
Killing floor does not oppose two teams, there is only one team. You don't have DLC skins that affect the appearance of the zombies for your teammates, do you?
I hate DLCs (except in Killing Floor because it changes really nothing), cosmetics are more OK and I can understand the use of them, especially for indie devs, but those DLC shouldn't change the artstyle of NS2, I don't want to have golden AK47 and fluo hats. At least there should be an option to be able to play with Vanilla graphics.
I hate DLCs (except in Killing Floor because it changes really nothing), cosmetics are more OK and I can understand the use of them, especially for indie devs, but those DLC shouldn't change the artstyle of NS2, I don't want to have golden AK47 and fluo hats. At least there should be an option to be able to play with Vanilla graphics.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The devs did say in a Q&A that if they have cosmetic stuff, they'll be in the same art style and theme with the default NS2 stuff and not go crazy with TF2 hats.
- DLC, i'm not against but most of the time it's useless, without any real content, and from a moddable game, it will not be succesfull
- Hat (TF2 style) as long as the game keep his personality I wouldn't mind see that coming, but I woulnd't buy any of these
- Months subscription, NEVER PLEASE !!!!!
- Ingame AD: in my opinion it's an underrated income ! I don't talk about usual ad, like in TV, when you have to stop viewing something, but smarter advertisement. In france we talk about "Placement de produit" (=Product placing). We are in a Cosumer society so why in any game you don't see any ad, especially in futuristic game ? As long as it keep making sense, and don't bother with lot of noise and sh*t.
I remember of Burnout Paradise, with the Gillette truck (and with some research even Obama has done it on Burnout).
But I understand that some guys don't want it, I Just prefer to see in-game SMART ad than DLC, cosmetic,...
Q: So we released our game, and will keep updating it for as long as we can. How do we proceed to fund further development?
A1: Sell more copies, by making the game popular and better.
A2: Sell items like plushies, more art and wallpapers, clothes like t-shirts, misc items.
A3: Make the engine popular and better and start licensing it.
A4: Keep A LOT of focus on modding support, the more fun mods, gamemodes, community etc the more popular the game will be, generating sales.
A5: Work on new engine technology, improved and extended game experience, release a sequel after 2-5 years.
I wouldn't say selling a lot of different in-game cosmetic items for NS2 would be effective in the long run. But perhaps I'm wrong... After all, for TF2 it was a HUGE success, even though I stopped playing it because it attracted/created another community which to me wasn't the awesome community of TFC/original TF2.
I encourage UWE to attempt this model with the Steam distribution: major expansion releases centered around the mythic Steam Sales. Sure, cosmetic skins will be okay as a side benefit as well. Killing Floor is my personal favorite success story- it was basically a nothing game that grew into a giant. I am confident that Natural Selection 2 is inherently better than Killing Floor was at launch, and combined with updates and word of mouth will ensure Natural Selection 2's popularity for years to come.
(Although, I must say that I am disappointed in Tripwire's recent decision to release a DLC weapons pack. Even though the DLC weapons pack's revenue goes directly to the modders that made the weapons pack, I feel that it's a huge sell-out and breaks the integrity of the game AND the modding culture.)
<!--quoteo(post=2008732:date=Nov 3 2012, 04:03 PM:name=Darkster)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Darkster @ Nov 3 2012, 04:03 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2008732"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->UWE is planning on doing updates which will boost sales (aka the <a href="http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2009/02/19/gabe-newell-valve-are-very-rich-its-awesome/" target="_blank">TF2 model before it went F2P</a> - second bullet). I don't believe it is very necessary for UWE to look for any other method of acquiring funding until that model stops working for them.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
^This is what I'm talking about.
Q: So we released our game, and will keep updating it for as long as we can. How do we proceed to fund further development?
A1: Sell more copies, by making the game popular and better.
A2: Sell items like plushies, more art and wallpapers, clothes like t-shirts, misc items.
A3: Make the engine popular and better and start licensing it.
A4: Keep A LOT of focus on modding support, the more fun mods, gamemodes, community etc the more popular the game will be, generating sales.
A5: Work on new engine technology, improved and extended game experience, release a sequel after 2-5 years.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Don't forget plushies ! I want my own gorge !
Moreover working on ad need time and money so I don't think it'll be really worked on fun, we need a bigger in-game ad market for that
True on both counts!
(I can't be bothered by Killing Floor)
Look who's come back empty of arguments, hence throws childish personal attacks instead.
<b>@ Regnareb:</b>
Artstyle and theme should be kept the same over all skins and models.
<b>@ Kable:</b>
I'm not so sure about DLC that splits the community, and advertisements of e.g. a keyboard inside the game.
<b>@ Vitdom:</b>
You don't have to do one or the other; there's nothing wrong in doing all of them, including selling cosmetic items.
<b>@ maD maX:</b>
Except for the fact that only you can see skins and models from Workshop.
These forums are the most hostile place I've seen towards NS2 so far. Discussions in reddit, team liquid, elsewhere, have largely been very positive with the occasional dissenting whisper.
For example, on reddit, temphage and psymple would have negative hundreds of karma :P<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
A million dollars is not a lot of money... there are currently 8 people employed at UWE. Let's assume there are no other expenses (rent, legal, contractors) and they are paid 60k a year (which would be a starting wage for a programmer...), their salaries will be 320k a year. That funds them for 3 years or more likely, allows them to break even with just developing the game.
Look who's come back empty of arguments, hence throws childish personal attacks instead.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<i>"That's your wild assumption and belief, and I'm not going to bother discussing something you can't factually back up."</i>
This is one of those threads people create that is less of a discussion and more of a thread that won't be resolved until the op gets his way, as shown by the length of the thread and the general response by the community and constant dismissal by the thread creator.
There is already a similar thread to this which has gotten a reply by the pr guy and game director, here is a link on their opinions on the matter.
<!--quoteo(post=2021424:date=Nov 12 2012, 07:48 PM:name=Strayan (NS2HD))--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Strayan (NS2HD) @ Nov 12 2012, 07:48 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2021424"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->A new in-game store, using micro-transactions to replace PRes and TRes. Want to get that second hive a little faster? Get that Onos a little bit earlier? Use Flamethrowers at the 1min mark? Just pay a bit more. Everyone can get everything at the normal times for free (free-to-play) but those willing to open their wallets can get everything faster. Angry that you got killed by a blinking fade at the 30 second mark? Stop being such a whining, stingy ######.
Also, make NS2 a free-to-play-browser-online-midcore-microtransaction-facebook-social game, to maximise user-acquisition and revenue-extraction from the concurrent player-base. It's all the rage these days, get with it.
But seriously, for now NS2 and UWE are ok :). The plan is to continue to add free content to the game with big and meaningful updates, interspersed with bug-fix/balance patches such as build 229. Games tend to settle into a long-tail of steady sales on Steam. So by providing awesome content to everyone who owns the game, and actively supporting it, we hope to maximise the size and length of that long tail.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=2021484:date=Nov 12 2012, 08:48 PM:name=Flayra)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Flayra @ Nov 12 2012, 08:48 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2021484"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yes, what Hugh said.
Sales are rockin'. We're very happy! No need for us to work on side projects to pay the bills. We'll just focus on making NS2 better and better.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So this should be a sufficient answer to the original post, if you feel that isn't enough for you, you can always contact them on twitter.
If you want to me to bow down for every argument given, then you're solely mistaken. There's quite a few arguments here, which I agree with is a better start in the beginning. However, after some time has gone and the sales goes down, they can change the business model as they see fit. Which is nothing drastic as affecting gameplay for micro-transactions. So please, stop trying so hard, will you? Thanks. :3