under 4 minute onos drop...
maD maX
Join Date: 2010-01-28 Member: 70347Members
Join Date: 2010-01-28 Member: 70347Members
<div class="IPBDescription">because apparently you can...</div>Ok, so if you are playing mineshaft and you start in cave this can be done....
1st. cyct cavern/north/crusher/sorting and drop those 4 rts ASAP
2nd drop hive ASAP you can drop an onos egg at about the 3:45 point...
Also note you need 2 helper gorges to split up and heal the RTs as fast as they can, have one go to cavern then crusher and the other go to north then sorting... then both heal the hive... (once all 4 RTs are dropped get out and go gorge and then get back in the hive to drop second hive... after second hive is dropped run join the other two gorges healing the hive.)
after onos egg is dropped you will have 30 seconds before it is read, durring this time you can get a craig hive started... and then drop a shell get out heal it and then upgrade cara... within 30 seconds you have cara up...
All in all you can have an onos runing around in less then 4:15 and he can have cara up before 4:45 min, with celerity 40 seconds later....
Turns out it takes less then a min to clear deposit with a basic onos and by the time he has cleared that he can evolve both cara and celerity
This all assumes that you can protect 5 extractors for 4 minutes....
MOVED MY SUGGESTION TO THE TOP since it turned into the topic....
Solution as i have suggested before is to add a maturity requirement for hives...
have a non mature hive be worth 1 point and a mature hive worth 2 point
IE-
(1)gorge Drop... need 1 hive,
(2)lerk drop.... need 1 mature hive or 2 non-mature hives
(3)fade drop... 1 mature hive &1 not mature hive or 3 nonmature hives,
(4)onos drop... 2 mature hives or 1 mature hive and 2 not mature hives
By adjusting time to maturity they can tweek balance in a simple and easy top follow manner...
Id like to see a way to increase maturation rate with mist so that you can still rush onos (still not as fast) but at a cost of Tres to hurry the process....
*Edit* I made it into a suggestion thread as well
<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=124316&st=0&gopid=2021021&#entry2021021" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...p;#entry2021021</a>
1st. cyct cavern/north/crusher/sorting and drop those 4 rts ASAP
2nd drop hive ASAP you can drop an onos egg at about the 3:45 point...
Also note you need 2 helper gorges to split up and heal the RTs as fast as they can, have one go to cavern then crusher and the other go to north then sorting... then both heal the hive... (once all 4 RTs are dropped get out and go gorge and then get back in the hive to drop second hive... after second hive is dropped run join the other two gorges healing the hive.)
after onos egg is dropped you will have 30 seconds before it is read, durring this time you can get a craig hive started... and then drop a shell get out heal it and then upgrade cara... within 30 seconds you have cara up...
All in all you can have an onos runing around in less then 4:15 and he can have cara up before 4:45 min, with celerity 40 seconds later....
Turns out it takes less then a min to clear deposit with a basic onos and by the time he has cleared that he can evolve both cara and celerity
This all assumes that you can protect 5 extractors for 4 minutes....
MOVED MY SUGGESTION TO THE TOP since it turned into the topic....
Solution as i have suggested before is to add a maturity requirement for hives...
have a non mature hive be worth 1 point and a mature hive worth 2 point
IE-
(1)gorge Drop... need 1 hive,
(2)lerk drop.... need 1 mature hive or 2 non-mature hives
(3)fade drop... 1 mature hive &1 not mature hive or 3 nonmature hives,
(4)onos drop... 2 mature hives or 1 mature hive and 2 not mature hives
By adjusting time to maturity they can tweek balance in a simple and easy top follow manner...
Id like to see a way to increase maturation rate with mist so that you can still rush onos (still not as fast) but at a cost of Tres to hurry the process....
*Edit* I made it into a suggestion thread as well
<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=124316&st=0&gopid=2021021&#entry2021021" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...p;#entry2021021</a>
Comments
So to all those who complain about a 6 minute onos.... be happy they didnt do a 4 minute onos...
I'm up for looking for a more efficient Onos strategy. Let's see if we can get one into the game within the 3 minute mark.
The real problem is, that there are hardly any prerequisites necessary for the onos drop and that other stategries are less desireable
1. Make them eggs more expensive
2. Make Onos less powerful at two hives and even less at one hive
Right? The thing is this Onos is also the thing that keeps the aliens going so more things need to be touched by the balancing hand of dewm :P
That actually happened to me once.
The commander was pissed, BUT IT WAS THE JETPACKERS FAULT.
You haven't seen any deviation because it's the best strategy, not because it's the only viable one.
It might actually be the only viable one, but you'd never know 'cause other strategies aren't even attempted the vast majority of the time.
Which is why I tend to really not like most RTSes. There's a handful of top-tier strategies and once you know them, it's just a matter of how fast you can pull it off.
Well in alot of pub games I've played this build, if I give a fast onos egg to my best player I end up winning 90% of games.
If I don't, I usually lose because we cannot push marines back fast enough before they start sentry spamming everywhere.
There simply is no reason to go for another strategy when not doing it usually results in a slow death. Onos dropping is a problem, but putting onos on third hive will cause serious problems for aliens with current state of game. Aliens need onos spam eventually to take that third hive.
Edit: Maybe onos egg can only be dropped if another play has gone onos at some point? And do the same for all weapons/evolutions. We need some sort of tying to pres.
1. Make them eggs more expensive
2. Make Onos less powerful at two hives and even less at one hive
Right? The thing is this Onos is also the thing that keeps the aliens going so more things need to be touched by the balancing hand of dewm :P<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I prefer the secret third hive option.
have a non mature hive be worth 1 point and a mature hive worth 2 point
IE-
(1)gorge Drop... need 1 hive,
(2)lerk drop.... need 1 mature hive or 2 non-mature hives
(3)fade drop... 1 mature hive &1 not mature hive or 3 nonmature hives,
(4)onos drop... 2 mature hives or 1 mature hive and 2 not mature hives
By adjusting time to maturity they can tweek balance in a simple and easy top follow manner...
Id like to see a way to increase maturation rate with mist so that you can still rush onos (still not as fast) but at a cost of Tres to hurry the process....
have a non mature hive be worth 1 point and a mature hive worth 2 point
IE-
(1)gorge Drop... need 1 hive,
(2)lerk drop.... need 1 mature hive or 2 non-mature hives
(3)fade drop... 1 mature hive &1 not mature hive or 3 nonmature hives,
(4)onos drop... 2 mature hives or 1 mature hive and 2 not mature hives
By adjusting time to maturity they can tweek balance in a simple and easy top follow manner...
Id like to see a way to increase maturation rate with mist so that you can still rush onos (still not as fast) but at a cost of Tres to hurry the process....<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That.. is actually a really elegant solution. It's better than linking onos eggs to 3 hives because you still want that to be available if the aliens are getting pinched to 2 hives in mid-late game, but helps prevent a ridiculous early onos egg rush. I like that quite a bit.
Brilliant!
This is like the definitive solution. I really, REALLY like it! T-UP
have a non mature hive be worth 1 point and a mature hive worth 2 point
IE-
(1)gorge Drop... need 1 hive,
(2)lerk drop.... need 1 mature hive or 2 non-mature hives
(3)fade drop... 1 mature hive &1 not mature hive or 3 nonmature hives,
(4)onos drop... 2 mature hives or 1 mature hive and 2 not mature hives
By adjusting time to maturity they can tweek balance in a simple and easy top follow manner...
Id like to see a way to increase maturation rate with mist so that you can still rush onos (still not as fast) but at a cost of Tres to hurry the process....<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is actually a really good idea, may need just a bit of tweaking.
I solo comm'd aliens to win against 4 marines.
Was slightly lulzy...
Needless to say, they didn't let me whip rush with 12 upgraded whips the next round :(
have a non mature hive be worth 1 point and a mature hive worth 2 point
IE-
(1)gorge Drop... need 1 hive,
(2)lerk drop.... need 1 mature hive or 2 non-mature hives
(3)fade drop... 1 mature hive &1 not mature hive or 3 nonmature hives,
(4)onos drop... 2 mature hives or 1 mature hive and 2 not mature hives
By adjusting time to maturity they can tweek balance in a simple and easy top follow manner...
Id like to see a way to increase maturation rate with mist so that you can still rush onos (still not as fast) but at a cost of Tres to hurry the process....<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree, I think that's a great solution maX.
<!--quoteo(post=2020367:date=Nov 11 2012, 11:21 PM:name=maD maX)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (maD maX @ Nov 11 2012, 11:21 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2020367"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Solution as i have suggested before is to add a maturity requirement for hives...
have a non mature hive be worth 1 point and a mature hive worth 2 point
IE-
(1)gorge Drop... need 1 hive,
(2)lerk drop.... need 1 mature hive or 2 non-mature hives
(3)fade drop... 1 mature hive &1 not mature hive or 3 nonmature hives,
(4)onos drop... 2 mature hives or 1 mature hive and 2 not mature hives
By adjusting time to maturity they can tweek balance in a simple and easy top follow manner...
Id like to see a way to increase maturation rate with mist so that you can still rush onos (still not as fast) but at a cost of Tres to hurry the process....<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is an excellent idea. It also makes maturity for hives relevant for more than just health.
Fades would also still require a rebalance which is most of the difficulty in removing the fast onos tres drop. Aliens will have a gaping hole in their mid-game following their already weak early game strength. The difficulty in fixing the onos drop comes not from a mechanic to delay the onos but from rebalancing aliens to give them a fair chance after its removal.
The rebalance should also be more complex than simply giving fades 50 more hp. The underlying mechanic of no-pres-while-dead (a replacement for res-for-kill) completely butchers fade timings. Currently, fades typically come out in 10-15 minutes. The more pressure applied by marines, the later the fades. The marines are able to delay fades by minutes simply by forcing aliens to defend their hive.
Wouldn't it just be better to lower p.res cost for Lerk by 10, Fade by 15, and increase Onos by 5? After t.res eggs get changed significantly, of course.
Also I think it would be valid to remove the 'no resources gained while you're dead' thing on the alien side would be valid since lifeforms as they are now are rare to see and when you do see fades/lerks/etc. 'bout they usually don't last for more than 5-10 minutes. (in my experience in pub play that is)
I mean you usually die quite often as a skulk and usually when I die I have to wait 12 seconds for a respawn even when there's a healthy egg count in the hive(s) and in the long run if you die a lot which most pub players tend to do being a skulk then it'll take far too long for anyone to go fade at the mid game. (in my opinion that is)
Overall the aliens DO need some kind of rebalancing especially around the mid-game and the whole 'issue' with 4-6 minute mark Oni egg drops.
Lets wait for them...
Lets wait for them...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
'Today' meaning Monday?
While it may seem like a elegant solution I feel it could be confusing for comms because the maturity isn't really required for any other tech and there are no notifications.
<!--quoteo(post=2020284:date=Nov 11 2012, 08:29 PM:name=TimMc)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TimMc @ Nov 11 2012, 08:29 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2020284"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Well in alot of pub games I've played this build, if I give a fast onos egg to my best player I end up winning 90% of games.
If I don't, I usually lose because we cannot push marines back fast enough before they start sentry spamming everywhere.
There simply is no reason to go for another strategy when not doing it usually results in a slow death. Onos dropping is a problem, but putting onos on third hive will cause serious problems for aliens with current state of game. Aliens need onos spam eventually to take that third hive.
Edit: Maybe onos egg can only be dropped if another play has gone onos at some point? And do the same for all weapons/evolutions. We need some sort of tying to pres.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So we agree, that on the one hand the early onos can be really problematic and on the other hand that alternative stategies are less desirable. This is basically what I said before. So I agree, that just delaying the early onos by a few min doesn't solve the problems aliens currently are facing.
^ Mature hive idea by Max is also a solid one.